Four versus Five element theory

[djs]

Wondering what other's thoughts are on this issue - What do you think of the differences between the conception of the four elements based on earth, water, fire and air (Most people add space/void as a fifth element) and the taoist perspective of metal, wood, water, fire and earth and does this difference have a discernable impact on spiritual cultivation?

 

I've read Eric Yudelove's (SP?) attempt to resolve the differences between these systems. It seems to me that one system emphasizes body organs and the other emphasizes vertical alignment of the body into elemental regions.

 

What do others think?

[Yoda]

Great question, don't know. Hopefully one of the local smartypants will jump in on this one.

 

The nice thing with a 4 element system is that you can pop them into the four directions which is pretty cool.

[zanshin]

I'd say the generative and destructive cycles in taoist perspective add great depth (which I am far from understanding) opposed to 4 elements which seem to be more free standing.

[sunshine]

Great question, don't know. Hopefully one of the local smartypants will jump in on this one.

 

The nice thing with a 4 element system is that you can pop them into the four directions which is pretty cool.

 

Well Yoda. That was done with the 5 Elements as well, with Earth representing the centre...

 

[三江源]

 

Well Yoda. That was done with the 5 Elements as well, with Earth representing the centre...

 

oh-oh. smartypants is here.

[Pero]

oh-oh. smartypants is here.

 

 

For me there's no need to reconcile the systems in the way that one element from one should correspond to one element from the other system. I don't see any benefit. The way I see it though, is that the 5 phases are more gross, and the 5 elements more subtle. So you can separate one element into 5 also, like water of water, fire of water, air of water, earth of water and space of water and so on... But I guess you can turn it around too, I think it's more like a relative thing. Someone used one system to describe phenomena, someone used another.

[Yoda]

 

it's like in european football where you kicked it right between my legs!

[fiveelementtao]

 

For me there's no need to reconcile the systems in the way that one element from one should correspond to one element from the other system. I don't see any benefit. The way I see it though, is that the 5 phases are more gross, and the 5 elements more subtle. So you can separate one element into 5 also, like water of water, fire of water, air of water, earth of water and space of water and so on... But I guess you can turn it around too, I think it's more like a relative thing. Someone used one system to describe phenomena, someone used another.

The four element cycle is also 5. earth-water-fire-air-ether(spirit)

Here's what I think.

The same except that air is metal and ether is wood. There are obvious differences, but if I had to make a transliteration, that's how I would do it.

only my guess...

[Taiji Bum]

I think the Greeks used the 4 elements as the building blocks of creation but the Chinese Taoists use the 5 elements as more of a system to understand transformations. So its like comparing apples and oranges. I think its like saying "energy" which can mean a bunch of different things. When a westerner says element he is thing atomic level stuff like the periodic table and building "blocks" and when a easterner says is she thinks a system of transformation and single "gear" in a 5 gear system. Did that make any sense?

 

I always thought this was neat.

Earth- cool/dry

Water- cool/wet

Fire- worm/dry

Air- warm/wet

[松永道]

There's more than one way to cut a pie into five slices.

 

One thing to think about concerning the Chinese Five Phase system is that it was originally developed out of seasonal energies, not elements as building blocks of the universe.

 

In spring things sprout and the weather is getting warmer. Wood

In summer things grow and the weather gets hot. Fire

In autumn things fall and the weather is getting cooler. Metal

In winter things are in storage and the weather gets cold. Water

Earth is where it all takes place, earth provides the Qi. (later earth is also categorize earth as the Long Summer season, or as the transition 15 days between seasons)

 

The Five Elements developed out of the one year seasonal cycle just as Yin and Yang developed out of the daily cycle. They later where developed into philosophical systems for comparing things and for understanding movement and transformation.

 

As for the building blocks of the universe, in ancient Chinese thought, it's all Qi. And Qi is most often divided into 3 levels of grossness: Jing, Qi, and Shen. Jing being material, Shen subtle and ethereal, and Qi mitigating between the two.

 

Now as for my very limited understanding of the 4 elements in the west and 5 elements in Ayurveda, they seem to be classifications of things rather than movements.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I think they were both created empirically by the Greeks or the Chinese. Observing what they saw around them and applying it to a spiritual construct later. We have new elements now (empirically found), many more than 4 or 5; they are still applied to spiritual constructs (mainly in New Age).

 

Perhaps I am not seeing the point as to why someone would want to use this system still....