Is Chi Something You Can feel?

[Seth Ananda]

It is my take on things that the systems that are very anti 'Mind' which are also usually the systems that are very anti 'world' (its all an Illusion and I just want to escape ( nothing wrong with that )) are usually also very anti Visualization.

 

And the systems that are more accepting of the different levels, and may even believe that enlightenment should be on every level, Physical on up... are usually Ok with visualization.

 

That may be an over simplification, but to me it seems generally true. (a generalization)

 

Seth.

[Pietro]

It is my take on things that the systems that are very anti 'Mind' which are also usually the systems that are very anti 'world' (its all an Illusion and I just want to escape ( nothing wrong with that )) are usually also very anti Visualization.

 

And the systems that are more accepting of the different levels, and may even believe that enlightenment should be on every level, Physical on up... are usually Ok with visualization.

 

That may be an over simplification, but to me it seems generally true. (a generalization)

 

Seth.

 

Happy to expand your data, then.

 

The water tradition of Taoism, as taught by Bruce Frantzis is heavily not using visualization, and is heavily pro world.

 

Regarding the mind I am not sure what you mean, so I can't tell.

 

And yes, most of us feel. I am genuinly surprised Buddy was not able to feel, but I think he was able to feel, he would just reinterpret the feeling as body sensations and ignore any of the once that were from outside his body. It's hard to imagine how he could open and close the plates of his skull if not.

 

But yes there are also people who never feel chi.

 

artform: What you mean by yin chi and yang chi? You know yin and yang are relative terms. So there are many types of chi which have many different sensations, some are more yin of others. Or you are speaking about the absolute pure yin and pure yang that runs in the thrusting channels? Because for those, I assume, you need to get the transmission.

[Seth Ananda]

Happy to expand your data, then.

 

The water tradition of Taoism, as taught by Bruce Frantzis is heavily not using visualization, and is heavily pro world.

 

Regarding the mind I am not sure what you mean, so I can't tell.

 

And yes, most of us feel. I am genuinly surprised Buddy was not able to feel, but I think he was able to feel, he would just reinterpret the feeling as body sensations and ignore any of the once that were from outside his body. It's hard to imagine how he could open and close the plates of his skull if not.

 

But yes there are also people who never feel chi.

 

artform: What you mean by yin chi and yang chi? You know yin and yang are relative terms. So there are many types of chi which have many different sensations, some are more yin of others. Or you are speaking about the absolute pure yin and pure yang that runs in the thrusting channels? Because for those, I assume, you need to get the transmission.

Pietro. I practiced Bruce's water method for a while and like it. I said 'Usually' not always. Its just a general trend I have noticed. Nothing absolute about it.

Have fun.

Seth

[Starjumper]

Women feel chi more easily than men. Men with soft muscles feel chi more easily than men with hard muscles. If people have gotten rid of most of their sick chi and can feel it in their whole body then that is what produces the feeling of physical bliss. People with sick energy are the 'old grump' types. People with a lot of healthy energy are generally joyful, which is why young children are generally joyful. At least thats the way it was before the food supply was so poisonous.

 

There is a secret exercise guaranteed to get even the most hard muscled jock to feel chi the first time - guaranteed.

[mYTHmAKER]

There is a secret exercise guaranteed to get even the most hard muscled jock to feel chi the first time - guaranteed.

 

And that would be ...

[Starjumper]

And that would be ...

 

Ya, well if I told you then it wouldn't be a secret anymore =) but I give away secrets and so...

 

I call it dual motion sander chi kung, and it's a joke to call it chi kung. Grip a dual motion sander firmly in both hands and run it for about sixty seconds. As soon as you turn it off put it down quickly and open your hands and focus on the feeling. People who are numb to chi will need to focus quickly because the chi feeling in the hands will fade in a couple of seconds. This exercise is NOT good for people so don't do it too much.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Starjumper7

[mouse]

To be totally honest, I have no idea what the actual definition of Chi is... all I can experience is different energy/vibration from subtle to course in nature in which the very definition encompasses the whole myraid of experiences of what people deem Chi to be.

 

Tension in the body is energy locking up. Diffusing it is just a process of active relaxation. Emotions ranging from happines, anger, jealousy etc, all are just vibration to me. It can be guided, released, stored, manifested etc.

 

Even the floating of your body in the sea or the light from the sun is all energy. Gravitational forces of attracting and repelling. Magnetism, heat, cold.

 

The more I train the less I understand what I think the actual meaning of chi actually is...maybe that is why my teacher doesn't even teach using the word chi.

 

Just my humble opinions on this subject from my experiences.

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 27, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Vajrasattva]

it is very USEFUL and needed. If you don't "See" either by self actualizing the visualization (Yang) or by self surrendering to receptivity (Yin). You do not in any way have a 3rd eye open and you are not developed yet in your cultivation.....

 

 

Visualization is a major stepping stone to activating and using the higher centers in the brain/energy body.

 

So yeslearn to feel (Swadisthana & Anahata Siddhi) & Learn to See (Manipura & Ajna Siddhi).

 

They are both needed in the "Path".

 

And they both have a Yin and Yang aspect. So to say one is worthless is to say " I am not educated or experienced enough and I am still wearing energetic diapers". No offense to the one who said "visualization" is worthless but you are unfortunately wrong.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[adam mizner]

i like your posts

 

i dont deal with centres like the 3rd eye so much, i dont use the word chi so much either, or yin and yang for that matter. but to know something it must be registered through the senses. so to know something such as 'chi' visually you must cultivate clairvoyance, a very practicle tool for doing this is visualization. if your eyes open visualation skill is poor then your eyes open clairvoyance is usualy poor as well. so although visualization will not lead one to liberation it is far from useless.

 

metta

adam

 

it is very USEFUL and needed. If you don't "See" either by self actualizing the visualization (Yang) or by self surrendering to receptivity (Yin). You do not in any way have a 3rd eye open and you are not developed yet in your cultivation.....

Visualization is a major stepping stone to activating and using the higher centers in the brain/energy body.

 

So yeslearn to feel (Swadisthana & Anahata Siddhi) & Learn to See (Manipura & Ajna Siddhi).

 

They are both needed in the "Path".

 

And they both have a Yin and Yang aspect. So to say one is worthless is to say " I am not educated or experienced enough and I am still wearing energetic diapers". No offense to the one who said "visualization" is worthless but you are unfortunately wrong.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

[三江源]

 

 

It is my opinion that you can help someone feel his own Qi quite easily. I must say this is an opinion because I haven't done a lot of teaching, but my experience leads me to strongly believe this.

 

I could be wrong. Some people are stubborn in this respect.

 

Anybody remember "Buddy"?

 

 

Cat

I would not go so far as to say visualization is a foundation practice.

IN the example of the question posed "is Qi something you can feel" I would hasten to add that it isn't at all necessary to visualize in order to feel Qi.

 

For that I think structure and breath are much more important.

 

My teacher emphasizes the three layer approach.

 

Structure

Breath

Visualization

 

This corresponds to

 

Jing

Qi

Shen

 

They are all important in Qigong, Taiji, Neigong or whatever you are calling the practice you are doing.

My teacher says that without all three you don't have Qigong.

 

It is possible to Overemphasize visualization. In my opinion Healing Tao system does Overemphasize this aspect. It is also my opinion that it is easy to fall into the trap of ONLY visualization, and not to explore/refine structure and breath.

 

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

Craig..re.

I would not go so far as to say visualization is a foundation practice.

 

Well, it indisputably is a foundation practice. It isnt the one and only foundation practice. You wouldnt need to throw out breath or structure and exclusively visualise. There are foundation breath practises and foundation structure practises.

 

Of course there are very advanced meditations in which visualisation is absolutely key to the process,and it is very powerful.. but at that time the body/mind division permeable and fluid, and a state of body mind resonance is on hand without much preparation.

 

Teaching women's practises, as I have done, visualisation is the way in for women to even make a mental link with their ovaries, for example. Same with organ work. ( Visualise your liver, breathe into it.. etc.. how would you make a connection with your liver without visualising it first? ) After visualising, and then breathing, a conscious chi connection will be awakened. Hopefully. The fact is a lot of people are kinaesthetically weak and that awareness is a hard slog to get to. This is hard to realise for those of us for whom kinaesthetic experience of chi easily flows.

 

It is possible also to feel chi from doing chi kung and not visualising at all. Although of course we have Buddy to prove to us that this is not always the case. I also have friends who have done tai chi for I dont know how long, and dont feel chi. Then again, I met people at HT retreats who appeared to be having a great time, but werent feeling chi.. they were still 'visualising'.. I would have been happier if those people who were still in a state of no palpable state of chi sensation, would have had some assistance with other means to shift them forward into their bodies more. That was presumably 'covered' by the active chi gung methods that were taught alongside the seated meditation.

 

It is true also that some people do a lot of work with breath, structure, and visualisation.. and dont feel anything.

This is where there are ingrained blockages which we would believe that long term chi gung practise would solve.

 

I can sympathise with your initial sense that " you can help someone feel his own Qi quite easily".. and taking that initial feeling further, building it into a consistent sense which can be utilised reliably, is a whole other ball game.

 

However,more generally speaking, I'm not here to sell anything to anyone. if you dont like visualisation, dont do it, and ideally dont diss those that do, is all.

 

baby, bathwater.

[Ya Mu]

Structure

Breath

Visualization

 

This corresponds to

 

Jing

Qi

Shen

 

They are all important in Qigong, Taiji, Neigong or whatever you are calling the practice you are doing.

My teacher says that without all three you don't have Qigong.

 

It is possible to Overemphasize visualization. In my opinion Healing Tao system does Overemphasize this aspect. It is also my opinion that it is easy to fall into the trap of ONLY visualization, and not to explore/refine structure and breath.

 

 

Craig

 

 

 

it is very USEFUL and needed. If you don't "See" either by self actualizing the visualization (Yang) or by self surrendering to receptivity (Yin). You do not in any way have a 3rd eye open and you are not developed yet in your cultivation.....

Visualization is a major stepping stone to activating and using the higher centers in the brain/energy body.

 

So yeslearn to feel (Swadisthana & Anahata Siddhi) & Learn to See (Manipura & Ajna Siddhi).

 

They are both needed in the "Path".

 

And they both have a Yin and Yang aspect. So to say one is worthless is to say " I am not educated or experienced enough and I am still wearing energetic diapers". No offense to the one who said "visualization" is worthless but you are unfortunately wrong.

 

Peace

 

Santiago

 

 

Interesting to see so many different viewpoints. It goes to show that "qigong" is a multitude of variations.

 

Craig: Just be aware that there exist VERY powerful qigong systems that do NOT use visualization, breath, or structure. In the system I teach we go DIRECT to energy and are never concerned with breath, visualization, or structure.

 

I am sticking with what I say about visualization. Not worthless in some systems, can be powerful BUT definitely finite. AND, definitely NOT needed as a stepping stone to to activating and using the higher centers in the brain/energy body. (Although I would say "higher centers in the energy body" and leave out the limiting brain part. And, yes, totally NOT necessary to learn to "SEE".

 

I do recognize that there are many ways and paths so I am not saying anyone is "wrong" in their viewpoint. Just asking you to recognize that there paths that remove measurable limitations in development (brain waves can be measured, and visualization is a linear concept of the brain).

 

Einstein said something like this, "The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." I equate the rational mind as part of the problem and believe we all should render it to a faithful servant instead of the controlling factor, as it is in 99% of the population.

 

Master Wang Juemin said this " Stillness-Movement Qigong can awaken our Sacred Gifts". Our "Sacred Gifts "are of our infinite energy body and have nothing to do with the electrical computer called the brain. By working with the energy body the physical body, including the brain, evolves and changes in a natural non-forced manner.

 

This is my understanding today. Tomorrow I may change my mind.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Ya Mu

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 27, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Guest sykkelpump]

You dont need wisualization.In emptiness meditation or anapanasati you dont wisialize anything.And like serious cultivators know many people have reached enlightenment with these meditations.so that should prove it

[宁]

Kostas, (yes, that one), once cautioned myself and other beginning students from 'comparing notes' about sensations and getting caught up in chasing such feelings.

 

Seriously ask, and consider regularly, why you are doing what you are doing. For the 'feelings'?

 

A good teacher and correct practice are what is important. What happens from there happens.

 

Best,

 

Mike

 

 

Amen to that

[Apech]

Rather than asking whether visualizations are needed (since they clearly are not essential) it would be more worth while to ask what are visualizations good for. I think the answer is that they promote a certain type of mental awareness. They can be immediate and holistic. They can help with mental absorbtion. In a tantric sadhana they can be used to focus on a yiddam and allow the energy of that yiddam to pervade and so on.

 

In terms of Chi and healing visualizations can be used to create a certain energy structure to aid health. BUT I agree you do not need to visualize to feel chi.

[Stigweard]

[Ya Mu]

[seekeroftruth]

This topic was discussed a while ago, here's the link:

http://www.thetaobums.com/Visualisation-Im...lity-t7173.html

 

Hope this helps...

[Mak_Tin_Si]

There are two types of Chi in the world. One is call Sin Tin one is call Hau Tin.

 

Sin Tin's type of Chi is the condensed chi from the universal energy, in the outter space.

It is usually something the Taoist (officially training under a lineage) use. Taoist use these

on their rituals and charms (fu) such as the big dipper's energy and the jupiter's energy etc,.

 

Hau Tin's type of Chi is the chi from earth and the atmosphere level of earth. This is

used by Chi Gung's practitioners or people who use the energy of the five elements on

earth such as wicca and witchcraft people do with their curses.

 

Both Chi could be felt by a human. The second type is easier to feel because all people

have it with their body anyway. The first one is harder to feel and it takes attunement from

an official master to actually gain the ability to reach the Sin-Tin Chi, which is the condensed

outter space energy.

 

Therefore, Chi is real and it is very different when you talk about Chi in Taoism and chi in

the sense of Chi Gung. People people do Chi gung or Taichi the martial arts, they only need

the energy from earth and the five elements. But in Taoism trianing, it is all different.

 

i was wondering is chi something that you can actually feel?

[Ian]

The first one is harder to feel and it takes attunement from an official master to actually gain the ability to reach the Sin-Tin Chi, which is the condensed outter space energy.

 

Lawks! Is it just me, or is this curiously reminiscent of kunlun black hole energy?

[fizix]

Yes, chi is something you can feel. For example, an accomplished Mo Pai practitioner will be able to feel the energy present/accumulating in his or her Dan Tien while training. Also, when the breath is isolated following intensive, focused energy work (in any nei kung/chi kung system) then the chi will become, not isolated nor stagnant, but still and solid, synchronized with the tranquility of the breath, ready to follow the exhale and shen of the practictioner.

[h.uriahr]

Rather than asking whether visualizations are needed (since they clearly are not essential) it would be more worth while to ask what are visualizations good for. I think the answer is that they promote a certain type of mental awareness. They can be immediate and holistic. They can help with mental absorbtion. In a tantric sadhana they can be used to focus on a yiddam and allow the energy of that yiddam to pervade and so on.

 

In terms of Chi and healing visualizations can be used to create a certain energy structure to aid health. BUT I agree you do not need to visualize to feel chi.

 

In certain systems visualizations are NEEDED and are ESSENTIAL. In other systems they are hardly ever used. This is an ongoing debate when the debate has been dead for a long time, you cant argue that they dont work or arent essential because while it's true they might not be in your system or anyone elses on the forum the fact of the matter is that there are very powerful systems that actually start you off using visuales. You use them for quite sometime actually.

 

This topic was discussed a while ago, here's the link:

http://www.thetaobums.com/Visualisation-Im...lity-t7173.html

 

Hope this helps...

Nice pic, Alex is cool

 

Yes, chi is something you can feel. For example, an accomplished Mo Pai practitioner will be able to feel the energy present/accumulating in his or her Dan Tien while training. Also, when the breath is isolated following intensive, focused energy work (in any nei kung/chi kung system) then the chi will become, not isolated nor stagnant, but still and solid, synchronized with the tranquility of the breath, ready to follow the exhale and shen of the practictioner.

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