Wuji Dimension

[Baguakid]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

[p1g3on]

what do you mean by the wuji 'dimension?'

[Stigweard]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

 

That is a wonderful question Baguakid and its implications are wide and varied. Well asked.

 

Now firstly it must be said that I am a lowly neophyte with poor comprehension and an even poorer level of achievement so whatever I say here should only be considered as the mumblings of an illiterate hobo.

 

Wuji (無極) is the indescribale subtle originalness of the universe itself which, through spontaneous expressiveness, gave birth to the Taiji and the '10,000 myriad things'.

 

How would one access Wu Ji? Ahh ... the mystery of mysteries.

 

Excuse me for answering a question with a question ... but how does a single drop of water, once evaporated from the sea, finds its way unerringly back to the ocean?

[Pranaman]

read those books about John Chang, I believe something similar is talked about. Unless the whiteness is different than the Wuji

[adam mizner]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

 

 

hi

 

this is not so hard with correct training. the cause is equanimity and samadhi, it is a must for spiritual growth beyond a certain point. the wuji is not white or whiteness. it should be noted that accessing and equalizing with are very different.

 

metta

adam

[Dr. Andy]

Isn't this the same as the void realm which laymen access through the third eye?

[Taomeow]

Excuse me for answering a question with a question ... but how does a single drop of water, once evaporated from the sea, finds its way unerringly back to the ocean?

 

I'll add another question to your question --

how does the ocean find its way into a single drop of water?

 

The classic question for contemplating wuji is, How does a tree contract back into a seed?

[Stigweard]

I'll add another question to your question --

how does the ocean find its way into a single drop of water?

 

The classic question for contemplating wuji is, How does a tree contract back into a seed?

 

 

Ah ... beautiful!

[Aetherous]

how does a single drop of water, once evaporated from the sea, finds its way unerringly back to the ocean?

 

Awesome question...if you actually answer this it yields a lot of insight, I think. But if I answer it, it won't be a complete answer so I'll leave it open.

[doc benway]

Wuji is beyond words but I'll throw some at it anyway.

Wuji is always already there, it is just obscured by our illusions and distractions - the 10,000 things...

How to access it? You are already it. The illusions can be seen through and the distractions discarded through skillful meditation.

Wuji is the ground substance within which Daoist practices arise and seek to return.

[Spectrum]

sink or swim drop your center lift crown lengthen spine, squat should support structure hands reach out far enough the weight can sink thru heels. like wise the weight sinks thru the heels deep enough the arms can fully extend and be antennas to your suspension system.

 

find sung (song)

 

try moving your dantien thru a perfectly flat plane

 

the changes will happen

Edited November 15, 2008 by Spectrum

[Pietro]

hi

 

this is not so hard with correct training. the cause is equanimity and samadhi, it is a must for spiritual growth beyond a certain point. the wuji is not white or whiteness. it should be noted that accessing and equalizing with are very different.

 

metta

adam

 

I have the sensation that the only person that knows what is talking about here is Adam Mizner,

and everybody else should just shut ... ... up, and in case ask for clarifications.

 

And here are the clarifications I would like to ask.

 

Does accessing the wuji dimension, mean to access spontaneity?

If not, what does it mean? Can you pleas clarify?

 

When you speak about samadhi you speak about the ability to remain with the object of your concentration with no gaps of the mind? ( Thus a different, but more correct from the point of view of the tradition, usage from what has been recently done by a practitioner in another thread: my back is hurting but I sit in samadhi for 1 hour)

 

I have other questions, but those would suffice.

 

And please if you do not know, DO NOT GUESS.

Spiritual work is no guess work.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

[Riyue]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

i think that 無根樹 is a fine help to understand 無極...

...

無根樹

points to this: in the seed - the root - the fullness of qi is given - the full potential of a tree

in neijingtu:

一粒栗中藏世界

yi1 li4 li4 zhong1 cang2 shi4jie4

free translation: the whole world is given in a chest-nut

...

無極 wuji is like being an egg: cell-division has not started - you are full of qi 氣 - but this qi shows no differentiation...

this is the first posture in taijiquan: you are in a state where all movements are possible - given as potential - - but nothing is to be seen of it.

--

starting taiji - the egg transforms: cell-division starts ...the change to a bird begins...

the potential transforms to moving postures...

---

finishing - the egg is new born - you are full of qi - having no differentiation...

---

-

here you get best informations about wuji:

http://www.ctcwri.idv.tw/IndexD2/D2-12/051...81/01-35/13.htm

Edited March 9, 2009 by Riyue

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Wu_Ji in Chinese actually means no-boundry, no-extreme, infinity and undefine. In the theory of

Taichi, the way, LaoZi describe the WuJi stage as the stage when nothing have been formed in a

definite shape. Therefore, people refer it to when the universe is not even formed yet. They can

call that WuJi. When things starts to move, it is already going into Taichi stage.

 

As a Taoist Master, I can share some of my experience on Taoism Practise with you. When you are going to learn the Taoism's universal energy, you are already withdrawing energy from the universe. Depending on which stage you are and what level you are training at, the further out you can reach to connect to different energy zones and withdraw the so call "faat" which is the universal energy or so called "magical energy" from there. As immortals do when they open a taoism lineage, they will reserve a zone in the universe and so that their students can input or withdraw energy to the zone. It is a secrete from long time ago but it is now easy to expalin because we are now all very scientific.

 

The highest stage of being an immortal is call "Bak Yat Fei Sing" which is to disappear and transform yourself from this human stage into the Wuji stage, so you dissappear and go to another dimension or zone outside of the universe. That is Wuji. So nobody can go to that dimension unless you are going to train and become an immortal. That means you cannot even go on the internet and you cannot live with normal society because it is too polluted here.

 

 

 

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

[Pietro]

...

As a Taoist Master, I can ...

 

 

Addendum:

 

oh, oh.

It seems that our guest is indeed authenthic:

http://www.taoismcanada.com/eaboutpai.html

 

Available from: http://www.taoismcanada.com/ and http://www.chiinnature.com/

and they also have a nice map to the temple:

http://www.taoismcanada.com/econtact.html

 

Well, if they don't excommunicate me before I might pay them a visit when I pass through Toronto at the end of the month.

 

Oh, and look they also make nice "Become a Taoist" services:

http://www.taoismcanada.com/eintao.html

 

I bet this might end up becoming quite popular around here.

 

Message to Mak Tin Si, I am really sorry, we have so many wannabe taoist masters around here,

those days that is really hard to distinguish the genuine ones.

 

Pietro

Edited November 16, 2008 by Pietro

[adam mizner]

just found this, will give my view on those questions.

 

i try not to use terms like spontaneity as they are too general. wuji dimension is the plane of timeless and spaceless emptiness, this emptiness is not void as it holds for lack of a better word the potential for all to arise. it is because of this non existence that existence can come about. within the human there is the body, energy, mind and akshic body, all ground, wuji or whatever. so it is a vibrational scale from gross to subtle to non vibration (wuji). because this 'body' and plane are both spaceless they are not separate, this means that accessing this body or plane gives one access to any form of information. this is also the plane that kamma is stored in if you could say it is stored. hope this helps.

 

as for samadhi, your back cannot hurt in true samadhi. as in true samadhi (jhana) the 5 senses are transended and so is the will, this leaves only the knower. so to say it is concetration is a poor translation. absorbtion is better. that said this level of samadhi is not needed to access wuji. i think that a transmition from a good teacher is needed.

 

again hope this helps, i try to keep it very simple on forums.

 

metta

adam

 

 

I have the sensation that the only person that knows what is talking about here is Adam Mizner,

and everybody else should just shut ... ... up, and in case ask for clarifications.

 

And here are the clarifications I would like to ask.

 

Does accessing the wuji dimension, mean to access spontaneity?

If not, what does it mean? Can you pleas clarify?

 

When you speak about samadhi you speak about the ability to remain with the object of your concentration with no gaps of the mind? ( Thus a different, but more correct from the point of view of the tradition, usage from what has been recently done by a practitioner in another thread: my back is hurting but I sit in samadhi for 1 hour)

 

I have other questions, but those would suffice.

 

And please if you do not know, DO NOT GUESS.

Spiritual work is no guess work.

 

Thanks,

Pietro

[adam mizner]

not sure what this has to do with wuji?

 

metta

adam

 

sink or swim drop your center lift crown lengthen spine, squat should support structure hands reach out far enough the weight can sink thru heels. like wise the weight sinks thru the heels deep enough the arms can fully extend and be antennas to your suspension system.

 

find sung (song)

 

try moving your dantien thru a perfectly flat plane

 

the changes will happen

[goldisheavy]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

 

One accesses it by questioning beliefs. An effective way to question beliefs is to seek the underlying core belief and to question that. If you find that the belief you have been questioning is just a cover for an even more fundamental belief, then you proceed toward the core again. In this manner you move toward the root concern.

 

Eventually your beliefs will become completely resolved, but you can't take my word for that. It's not something that happens suddenly, but the resolution of concerns occurs gradually over time and it doesn't progress in a smooth straight line. There can be ups and downs, but if your heart is true, which is to say, if you are sincere in your questioning, examination, awareness, the long term effect is the gradual resolution of concerns. Concerns arise due to conflicts between various unexamined beliefs (which lead to mutually conflicting intentions within a person, which cause pain and suffering).

 

How does it relate? The practice is a bad word. Normally practice involves conditioning. For example, if you want to run well, you practice running. So you run every day. You begin to condition yourself for running. Eventually you can run pretty well. That's what practice is. In Taoism you ask, "Why is it that I already can't run flawlessly? What is holding me back?" Then you might realize, "Oh, it's because I believe in the reality of physicalism. I believe muscles have limits. I believe...." You may not realize right away that it's your beliefs that are causing the problem, but if you practice lucid dreaming, you might notice that you can run arbitrarily fast in a dream. Why? Because in a lucid dream you don't have strong beliefs to hold your intent back. So the Taoist practice involves deconditioning. So it's an unpractice. This is why following formalized and heavily structured method is contraindicated. The idea is to allow the intent to express itself freely without being filtered through a network of limiting beliefs that are perceived to be obligatory. If the limiting beliefs are no longer perceive to be obligatory, they can serve in ornamental capacity, and are no longer truly limiting. In that case beliefs can become expressive and sacred, but only when you are the master of your beliefs and not a slave of your own beliefs.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

so you dissappear and go to another dimension or zone outside of the universe. That is Wuji.

 

This is not exactly right. While an experience can occur that feels like you have disappeared and entered a dimension outside of the universe, in reality this is not what actually occurs. The universe is just an appearance in the first place. Your appearance in the universe is also an appearance. The disappearance is another kind of appearance. Energy is an appearance as well. There is nothing substantial behind energy, matter or mind. If you think there is, you should examine the basis of that belief and see if it can stand up to questioning.

 

What we see is a play of appearances. The difference between a "master" and an ordinary being is that an ordinary being is very comfortable with only a very narrow set of appearances and is terrified and is very uncomfortable with anything else. The "master" is, on the other hand, more open-minded. The "master" is more familiar with the full array of possibilities of experience and is less concerned about self-preservation than an ordinary being.

 

So the dimension is not out there or in here or anywhere else. Nor is it nowhere. Basically all relational language is introducing an error in thinking, because the mind is not something relative and nor is it something absolute (that's the "beyond extremes" part).

 

Energy is naturally abundant. To think that you have to suck the energy from somewhere is absurd. In fact, sucking, as an action, requires energy! Understand -- the energy is infinite and doesn't need to be sucked, stored, or manipulated using a structured step-by-step manner. In order to get the appearances to comply fully with intent one must only question the limiting beliefs.

 

Message to Mak Tin Si, I am really sorry, we have so many wannabe taoist masters around here,

those days that is really hard to distinguish the genuine ones.

 

Pietro

 

Ha! This is funny. Obviously you haven't read Zhuangzi! Because right there, in that Taoist classic, you would have read how a master was forsaken by his student in favor of a shaman who could use the features of the face to foretell one's fortune. This guy had amazing abilities! And the master was just an ordinary boring guy. Or so the student thought. So the master had him bring the shaman and have him predict something about the master. So then the shaman made a series of predictions, all of which ended up being wrong. And finally the shaman becomes scared and runs away, because as the last appearance, the master shows him great instability, which is scary to anyone with a fixed mindset.

 

So, the point is this -- it's ALWAYS been hard to tell a real master from a fake. Not just today!! This is not something new that just started happening in the last few years or even the last 100 years or even the last 1000 years. There are fakes running around, running temples, with students, you name it. Fakes are all over the place.

 

Unfortunately no one can tell you who is fake and who is real. This task falls squarely on your shoulders. It is up to you to decide who is real and who is not. And the best way to do so is to see what kind of effect the person has on you. Obviously this is dangerous, because, for example, many people like the effect sugar has on their tongue, but if you can't trust your own mind, you cannot trust any master either, because the master only makes sense in your own mind and not somewhere outside your mind.

 

So you can begin today by taking full responsibility for your own spiritual progress and stop blaming the masters or the lack of masters for your own success or failure.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Standingpost]

Some interesting responses. I am taking a taiji/qigong class, and one of our meditations is called wuji.

 

It is a standing meditation, done in a straight alignment where we are taught to "go into the center," and put our minds into the middle dantian (energy center 3 fingers below the navel in this system). We close our eyes, and breathe directly into the belly, with the goal of completely quieting the mind.

 

Sometimes we are encouraged to follow the "large universe" in regards to breathing/qi flow, or visualize the energy circulating.

 

At first the posture was difficult, since my back is nowhere near straight, but now after about a year and 3/4 practice it is really starting to reap benefits.

 

I dont know how to describe my experiences, but something definitely happens.

 

Now, I think there are probably many ways to get there through meditation, but probably relaxing and breathing and making the mind as quiet as possible is a part of many of them.

 

Good luck!

[pleasantfiction]

My first teacher Chen was a great one for aphorisms. I remember he used to say often: "Do not confuse one thing with another."

 

Just to draw a calm and friendly line in the sand between concept and experience... hands up anyone who's tangibly experienced the wuji dimension. To even think about doing so brings up issues of discernment (don't leave home without it):

 

- if one has no actual experience of wuji, should one be talking about it, and if so, how much air of authority can one muster without feeling like a TOTAL poser?

 

- if one would answer "yes", by what process can one evaluate and legitimize one's own experience?

 

I have a friend who's heavy into dialectics, and I'll see what he says on validating the authenticity of traditionally addressed gnostic states, but off the top of my dome only three things come to mind:

 

1 The classics

2 One's teacher

3 One's own certainty

 

Trouble is, pretty much any slap-happy ass-half can read the classics and spout; it's extremely common to get led on by a charlatan teacher or school of phenomenon (poor Tom Cruise, seriously), and it's frighteningly easy to delude oneself into thinking all sorts of neat crap that amounts to zip-all when the chips are down.

 

As far as I can tell thus far in life, one's best bet is at the nexus of all three validations, when one has unshakable certainty of raw, lucid experience (not understanding of a concept, no matter how great the revelation may be) that falls directly in line with a genuine teacher's parallel experience of what is treated in the classics. I personally feel that anything short of this is self-directed chicanery, and it's as common as it is understandable.

 

We all want something grand and true, but most of us are too often willing to settle for delusion, discussion, or dedication in lieu of analog synthesis.

 

I've had one experience of wuji dimension. It was in line with the classics and my teachers, and it bore the kind of rock solid certainty that one might imagine in association with "meeting God" or something of the sort. No space/time; unidimensional, undifferentiated infinity; Nothingness that encompassed, pervaded, and preempted all knowable experience, so not really nothing, but No-thing-ness.

 

I sorta flooked onto it (into it?) while following through on some Plato and Descartes; they (especially Descartes) kind of ditched me at the cross-section of nihilism and radical freedom, and I just started disolving everything that could be dissolved, which turned out to be everything (all forms). Eventually I was a wee node of consciousness at the center of total nothing, and when I let go of that everything just kinda equalized into "the Great Blah".

 

I didn't hang out; couldn't really. As soon as a conscious observation began to form within that context, I bounced back to a conventional state of mind. Even so, it was of course an eternity, and what's really bizarre is that it encompasses all moments before and since "then."

 

What I took away from it was a rock solid validation of the Taoist classics as far as wuji goes, as well as first hand knowledge of this dimension, or at least, of it's existence.

 

I've tried getting back, but I have to admit that the deeper parts of my consciousness really don't seem that interested. Like, at all. If I had to guess, I'd say that the parts of me that are more consciously aware of wuji and such are a bit nonplussed by it and more than content with the diversion of 10,000 things; I've been fairly abiding on that point, because I'm pretty lazy. Still, I'm in constant mind of Wuji et al, and I have a healthy respect for the subtitles; I'm just not sure whether I'm procrastinating the appropriate training to masterfully approach such things, I'm genuinely not ready (possibly due to procrastination), or if these pursuits are ultimately unimportant.

 

I do agree with homeboy that Adam Mizner seems to have the most solid grip on this stuff; sounds more like he's talking from a place of experience in that he mentions specific training and applications. For my part, I'd like to do a more thorough dissolving, whereas last time it was mostly just forms; I'd like to do the same with the whole bag, including thoughts, emotions, notions of existence, and whatever else can be found. Looking forward to it, but first things first.

 

Don't spill it if you can't fill it.

 

"Man, feed me or get the hell outta my head-space." - Abram Girling

[goldisheavy]

- if one has no actual experience of wuji, should one be talking about it, and if so, how much air of authority can one muster without feeling like a TOTAL poser?

 

- if one would answer "yes", by what process can one evaluate and legitimize one's own experience?

 

If one has an actual experience of wuji, then that person knows the birth place of all appearances. As such, there is no way to stop such person from talking if that person wants to talk. And if that person wants to be silent, there is no way to untie that person's tongue. So someone who has had an actual experience is going to behave as a lord of appearances. And how would that be? Actually there is no way to tell! There is no "should" for a lord. The "shoulds" exist only for servants and slaves.

 

I have a friend who's heavy into dialectics, and I'll see what he says on validating the authenticity of traditionally addressed gnostic states, but off the top of my dome only three things come to mind:

 

1 The classics

2 One's teacher

3 One's own certainty

 

And what validates the classics?

 

And what validates the teacher?

 

Let's check it out, eh? I guess you can say the teachers validate the classics, since they are the ones teaching them and calling them "classic". Had they not done so, would you conclude something was classic? In fact, do you know of one classic, right now, that no teacher ever has called "classic"? If yes, please name it and show it to me.

 

How about teachers? Who validates them? Usually the answer is other teachers. Which ones? Is it a group of peers? Well, not usually, because among peers we always witness disagreement. Even in the Daoist classics such as Zhuangzi this is well recorded! In fact Zhuangzi was delighted to talk about disagreements. That was one of his favorite topics. Ok, so obviously the peers do not all agree, but where can we trace an agreement then? Aha! That's where the lineage comes in. So most often it works this way. The agreement is between the teacher and that teacher's teacher, and the teacher's teacher's teacher and so on.

 

This is similar to a situation where one time there was a lady in a philosophy class. And she said, "The earth is supported by a giant turtle." The philosophy professor laughed and said, "ok, but what supports that giant turtle?" And this lady replies, "You're a clever one, ain't ya? It's turtles all the way down!" Now, everyone thinks this lady is the butt of the joke, but I interpret it to mean that the lady was mocking the professor for his intellectual arrogance, since whatever the professor wanted to say was empty of essence. But no matter how you take it, the meaning is the same anyway! There is nothing to ultimately support something. At some point all things hang "in the air." Rainbows in space. Mushrooms in the clouds. The visions of a blind man. The tortoise fur, etc.

 

So the last is the most interesting one. Where does one's own certainty come from? I am tempted to leave this for you as a homework. But I'll give you a hint. If it comes from others, or from any entity that's deemed to be external, then you will easily lose your certainty in times of trouble. Should the external entity or entities stop liking you, they can withdraw their support. If that's a possibility, how would you ever be certain by basing your certainty on an external factor? Think it over please.

 

Oh, incidentally, this is why the lineage is so great! The dead teacher cannot withdraw his support.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[33865_1494798762]

How would one access the wuji dimension? How does it relate (practically) to Taoist Practices.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Hello

 

To my Knowles Wu Ji is there anyway, but there is no concept or definition in that experience at all, so there is "no way" to Wu Ji - Wu Ji is the way. It is life, it is absolute, it is the only dimension and as such it is opposit of "I", it can not be know or questioned because it is always it and yet all new to us.

However, by swifting body (or by reincarnating) you WILL come to terms with Wu Ji.

 

Wu Ji is (the experince of) omnipresence, omniscient and omnipotent, and yet it is the creator of the original question from where sensing is created, and from where the senses diverse and creates the elements and all the phenomenons, sound, colors, space, shape, form, movent, etc. in the world as we so call it.

 

It seems as we out of Wu Ji condence an "I" and defines its reality, as a question. By this way of "ordering" we make a mess - chaos. What we try to fix (control) is by that effort broken!) There is no time either so any answer is making the very same questions providing the answer. In the mist of chaos, Wu Ji seems to be solid but now there is experience of it, a center of consciousness and the friction of those two is creating a universe -In short - the "I" is only a memory, it does not exisist on its own terms, it is dead and can not be in touch with life - Wu Ji. It is keept being as a question, the "I" is remembered and it's manifistation is what we call an experience (something "extraordinary to follow) When the memory is being followed, it condens in to the world of phenomenons.

First by calibrating the sensing (still very chaotic) We deside how to experience "it".

In Wu Ji there is no order to what is experinced. One will be able to see sound and listen to heat or smell a color. A direction seems to start out of a feeling, then sound, light, colors, shapes and finaly a defined center and now space, movement and time is manifested. Finally the world as we "kind of know it", at least some of us - the same as normal sensing except everything is lights particles and waves, transparent, horisontal energy waves and the friction between the sparkling light particles and waves sounds (om) it is al over.

Wu Ji is still experinced in the "so called" physical world - very wierd. (imagien MATRIX but not green, more gold)

 

Wu Ji is the teater in which we define an identity out of ignorence and denial. We force opon us a role/identity and a hole world because we denies it - We (the "I") are nothing but a question! (something We know, something dead!)

 

Words like ignorence and surrender has to do with the experince of Wu Ji, oh and "no death/birth - pure life" = No question at all!

Edited March 9, 2009 by Guest

[WhiteTiger]

Wuji is the ground substance within which Daoist practices arise and seek to return.

Wonderfully said...

 

Also kinda sounds like what TM was saying with her tree comment.

[joeblast]

hi

 

this is not so hard with correct training. the cause is equanimity and samadhi, it is a must for spiritual growth beyond a certain point. the wuji is not white or whiteness. it should be noted that accessing and equalizing with are very different.

 

metta

adam

the 'glimpses' I've had via longevity breathing resonate with this statement. wuji is emptiness, therefore any semblance of 'doing' is right out. I equate experiencing wuji with experiencing pure awareness.

 

 

Excuse me for answering a question with a question ... but how does a single drop of water, once evaporated from the sea, finds its way unerringly back to the ocean?

Not by thinking or conceptualizing, that's for sure!!!