assemblage point

[Apech]

I'm looking for some authentic information on the assemblage point as per Castenada's books. Is there a Daoist equivalent in the sense of a point for gathering lines of attention which can be shifted and so on. Is it the middle Dan tien?

 

Any links to Toltec shamanism on this?

 

Thnx.

[Stigweard]

That is a very profound question Apech7. Many times I have contemplated the exact same thing. But firstly:

 

Disclaimer:

 

Recognising that Castenada's works may be totally fictional and contrived any referencing of his works are mere conjecture.

 

 

The only 'authentic' material I have found along the way is from Theun Mares from South Africa. It would appear he has come through an authentic Toltec lineage with no connection to Castenada. He has also laid down his knowledge in several very practical and lucid texts.

 

In my research I have never encountered a Taoist equivalent to what is referred to as the Assemblage Point, that being an energetic location behind the right shoulder that aligns the filaments of universal energy giving rise to the act of perception.

 

The connections that I have found are quite eye opening, those being principally:

 

~ The handling of intent

~ The energetic use of the lower Tan Tien

 

As mentioned I have often pursued this line of inquiry myself and would love to hear of your learned perspectives.

 

Cheers,

[Trunk]

I've never read nor heard of anything in the Taoist tradition that's equivalent to Castaneda's description of the assemblage pt. Doesn't match any descriptions of dan tien (nor chakra) that I've seen.

 

In my experience, the "egg" lights up as a result of the dan tiens integrating with the Big Light. Seems to me that moving the assemblage point (with skill) is an egg maneuver... very few people have stability and fluency at that level. Maybe someone could move the a-pt from mundane consciousness, or unskilled altered consciousness, but it'd be very clunky and risky, I'd bet.

 

I think that as you get further into depths of practice that radically alter your structure, it's so important to align your mindstream with beings who've stabalized their enlightened bodies. That relationship teaches your body, and provides a stabalizing context so that your body-mind can re-assemble coherently. This is Lineage. You need to be well enough in the habit of inwardly going to lineage, that when you're utterly scared and disorderly, that your instinct is to Take Refuge in Lineage.

[rain]

I've never read nor heard of anything in the Taoist tradition that's equivalent to Castaneda's description of the assemblage pt. Doesn't match any descriptions of dan tien (nor chakra) that I've seen.

 

In my experience, the "egg" lights up as a result of the dan tiens integrating with the Big Light. Seems to me that moving the assemblage point (with skill) is an egg maneuver... very few people have stability and fluency at that level. Maybe someone could move the a-pt from mundane consciousness, or unskilled altered consciousness, but it'd be very clunky and risky, I'd bet.

 

I think that as you get further into depths of practice that radically alter your structure, it's so important to align your mindstream with beings who've stabalized their enlightened bodies. That relationship teaches your body, and provides a stabalizing context so that your body-mind can re-assemble coherently. This is Lineage. You need to be well enough in the habit of inwardly going to lineage, that when you're utterly scared and disorderly, that your instinct is to Take Refuge in Lineage.

 

I find your posts intruiging, and ahh .. not sure if I understand half of it. Like "light egg" and,..ehrm the "Lineage" ref in this., though egg and light and lineage are familiar terms..

 

but, wow I feel awkward saying this..I've always felt puzzled about this middle dantien, not quite able to adress it as a fixed point like the lower and upper dantien. it seems I can only feel it come to life when concentrationg on intention as mentioned. I beam it with intention. I am also able to move it. Moving it downwards and slightly angular backwards I get things done so to speak..

or to put it another way, I get in accordance with the universe..

and thats quite powerful. haha.

Edited November 15, 2008 by rain

[Apech]

Thanks for the replies so far and I would like to continue the discussion because its an important subject IMO.

 

Like many of the ideas from CC's books the assemblage point seems to have spawned a small industry of practitioners - alternative healers who heal by moving the point when it becomes displaced (or stuck). Just google it if you want to see. They seem to place the point in the mid-chest where the heart chakra would be and not behind the right shoulder - which is the point that DJ used to strike to shift CC's attention. I was struck by this diagram:

 

 

 

 

Whether or not CC's books are 'fact' or 'fiction' does not concern me because (magical passes aside) the ideas in the books are in my view spot on. So whatever their source they are I think entirely valid. The movement of the assemblage point has various uses, dreaming, stalking and the attendant shifts in awareness. When ever we work, e.g. with Chi we are moving it slightly - more extreme movement will result in quite different states of consciousness. But ultimately understanding it and how it works must be a key to liberation.

 

I am puzzled though why its hard to provide a direct link to Daoist systems - maybe its something to do with the interaction of Shen and Chi (?).

[宁]

how can this information be of help to you? what do you expect to discover.

I've been a castaneda fan myself over the years, and still think his work is real.

maybe i can help you, but i don't know what are you searching for.

[Apech]

how can this information be of help to you? what do you expect to discover.

I've been a castaneda fan myself over the years, and still think his work is real.

maybe i can help you, but i don't know what are you searching for.

 

 

I use other systems to enhance my own work (which involves interpreting Ancient Egyptian religion - I can explain how this fits in if you wish). I want to make sure I have a correct understanding of the assemblage point and was originally looking to see if the Daoist system had anything equivalent.

[Spectrum]

natural convergence points exist all through the organism but the most concentrated and dense field is located in the lower dan tien, this is the organic center and our starting point of growth in this plane.

[Trunk]

.. not sure if I understand half of it. Like "light egg" and,..ehrm the "Lineage" ref in this., though egg and light and lineage are familiar terms..

 

By "egg", I mean basically the shape that is in Apepch7's attached diagram.

this diagram:

By "Light" I mean a primordial vast Light that is accessed and integrated in meditation. It is sometimes referred to as the dharmakaya, "pure light". I tend to just say Light or Big Light. (My understanding of how this is done is in a few core vessel essays.)

 

By "Lineage", I mean a group of enlightened beings who hang out together in a heavenly realm. Maybe I should say "Heavenly Lineage" as contrasted to a line of teachers on earth. I use it genericly, because people choose different Lineages to align with. (For instance, Christians align their attention to a different heavenly realm than Hindus.)

 

I think I've come to some sort of capatilazation style that it reminicent of Winnie the Pooh, and that's Not Such a Bad Thing.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Trunk

[Spectrum]

Pooh... oh Pooh so likes that honey... since we're talking about the matters at hand.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Spectrum

[宁]

I use other systems to enhance my own work (which involves interpreting Ancient Egyptian religion - I can explain how this fits in if you wish). I want to make sure I have a correct understanding of the assemblage point and was originally looking to see if the Daoist system had anything equivalent.

 

 

they don't need to overlap, you see.

there are various practice and belief system, that are working. their theory contradicts one another. yet they are all working. how do you explain that?

mixing up systems it's not a great idea.

because you cannot take a truth from here, and a truth from there, and make up your own truth.

the truth doesn't exist.

all that there is, is a massive incomprehensibly infinite mass of energy and awareness, everchanging.

practicioners of all walks of life make wild guesses on it, but it still remains a mistery.

 

and now for the explanation i found while researching the same topic:

the energy of the time and the energy of the place where that system was created, allowed for particular features, that you will find nowhere else, in that form.

it's another reason why you cant mix up: every system is made to fit a certain timeframe, spaceframe...

[rain]

By "egg", I mean basically the shape that is in Apepch7's attached diagram.

By "Light" I mean a primordial vast Light that is accessed and integrated in meditation. It is sometimes referred to as the dharmakaya, "pure light". I tend to just say Light or Big Light. (My understanding of how this is done is in a few core vessel essays.)

 

By "Lineage", I mean a group of enlightened beings who hang out together in a heavenly realm. Maybe I should say "Heavenly Lineage" as contrasted to a line of teachers on earth. I use it genericly, because people choose different Lineages to align with. (For instance, Christians align their attention to a different heavenly realm than Hindus.)

 

I think I've come to some sort of capatilazation style that it reminicent of Winnie the Pooh, and that's Not Such a Bad Thing.

 

Thanks for responding. So, all familiar terms then. I was just not too fan of the egg manouvre idea. thats all.

If you do not have a lineage at the time you want to align to gather the force, you may as well focus on intention built on rock steady faith in omnipresent love genious beoynd timespace.

pooh

[Apech]

they don't need to overlap, you see.

there are various practice and belief system, that are working. their theory contradicts one another. yet they are all working. how do you explain that?

mixing up systems it's not a great idea.

because you cannot take a truth from here, and a truth from there, and make up your own truth.

the truth doesn't exist.

all that there is, is a massive incomprehensibly infinite mass of energy and awareness, everchanging.

practicioners of all walks of life make wild guesses on it, but it still remains a mistery.

 

and now for the explanation i found while researching the same topic:

the energy of the time and the energy of the place where that system was created, allowed for particular features, that you will find nowhere else, in that form.

it's another reason why you cant mix up: every system is made to fit a certain timeframe, spaceframe...

 

 

You are right they don't overlap and I am not trying to mix systems - I am completely against that idea. That is my main criticism of most people who write about Egypt and you will see from what I have written on here that I keep within the Egyptian system when talking about it.

 

BUT you can gain understanding in one system which helps in the other. Also when dealing with fundamentals such as voidity and so on these are in all systems.

 

Every system is developed in a certain time, place, terrain and from a particular history of experience which makes it unique in that expression BUT because it is dealing with underlying reality if properly understood reveals the same nature of reality and so on.

 

It appears that the assemblage point is a useful principle in the work that I am doing so I want to compare and contrast how other systems talk about it. I would be very surprised if there is nothing in Daoism which deals with this - but maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

 

By "egg", I mean basically the shape that is in Apepch7's attached diagram.

By "Light" I mean a primordial vast Light that is accessed and integrated in meditation. It is sometimes referred to as the dharmakaya, "pure light". I tend to just say Light or Big Light. (My understanding of how this is done is in a few core vessel essays.)

 

By "Lineage", I mean a group of enlightened beings who hang out together in a heavenly realm. Maybe I should say "Heavenly Lineage" as contrasted to a line of teachers on earth. I use it genericly, because people choose different Lineages to align with. (For instance, Christians align their attention to a different heavenly realm than Hindus.)

 

I think I've come to some sort of capatilazation style that it reminicent of Winnie the Pooh, and that's Not Such a Bad Thing.

 

 

Trunk,

 

I like this:

 

core centre

 

 

care to expand on it as promised

[Yoda]

Great thread y'all!

 

(which involves interpreting Ancient Egyptian religion - I can explain how this fits in if you wish).

 

[宁]

It appears that the assemblage point is a useful principle in the work that I am doing so I want to compare and contrast how other systems talk about it. I would be very surprised if there is nothing in Daoism which deals with this - but maybe I'm wrong.

Trunk,

 

I think I have an idea, but I had my share of ass-umptions, so I'll let it roast for a while. I'll get back on it someday. I'm glad you think that way.

[Trunk]

Trunk,

 

I like this:

 

core centre

care to expand on it as promised

You like it, so you must relate to it in some way...

If you'd start by talking some about how you relate to it, and feel free to ramble if you like,

then I'll chime in, we'll kick it around some.

[Apech]

You like it, so you must relate to it in some way...

If you'd start by talking some about how you relate to it, and feel free to ramble if you like,

then I'll chime in, we'll kick it around some.

 

 

OK - its does say "This essay is a current work-in-progress; it'll be filling out over several weeks." - so I was encouraging you to do this, but anyway:

 

"Find the still place in the deep-center

 

of each of the three centers (power, love, wisdom).

 

Align those still places.

 

That alignment opens the central vessel."

What I take from this is that each of the Tan Diens (power - lower, heart - love, upper-wisdom) has at its heart a still centre through which they are linked. This link is the central channel or middle pillar - working with this is about working directly with reality (that is the union of emptiness and appearance, voidity and luminosity or however you express it.) Working in this way means resting in the 'now' in what the Egyptians called 'hotep' (sorry but I don't know the term from other systems). In a way you could say the three centres collapse into each other (this is a way of talking of course).

 

"Find the light in the deep-center

 

of each of the three centers.

 

Allow each center's light to transform and absorb

 

its own surrounding substance and energies

 

into its deep-center,

 

promoting each center's stability

 

as itself."

 

The light in each centre is the resident awareness (or primary awareness) which is an attribute of absolute power (reality), naturally arising from its presence, unconstructed and pure. Each centre has around it resonating energies, physical, emotional and so on which constitiute the kind of energy fabric of the being. The centre's light self-emanating absorbs, or rather acknowledges these as children of its own light and therefore links and binds them into a coherent structure which is able to establish its own stability - that is it becomes a kind of self harmonizing whole.

 

More later.

[Taomeow]

A few years ago I read a book titled The Gift of Dyslexia, and was amazed to learn that the author, who used to be severely dyslexic and cured himself, did so by discovering (or creating, hard to tell from memory) an assemblage point to view stuff out of. He called it something else, forget what, but I recognized Castaneda's AP instantly, albeit the author of the dyslexia cure method places it a tad higher I think. He later developed his discovery to help other dyslexics overcome their difficulty, with success rate close to one hundred percent.

 

I experimented with this method (I am not dyslexic, just a compulsive experimenter) and discovered that it is as grounding and centering as the lower dantien, the difference being that the lower dantien is great to use for interactions with self, while the assemblage point works very well for interacting with others -- if you release your awareness thence, it naturally provides something like an "impartial view," an interested observer who is however not easily swayed by what she observes.

[三江源]

Have you thought about just intuitively picking a point on the body, calling it your 'assemblage point' if that is the term you like, and having the intention to empower it with your various levels of awareness and focus.

[cheya]

 

 

In my research I have never encountered a Taoist equivalent to what is referred to as the Assemblage Point, that being an energetic location behind the right shoulder that aligns the filaments of universal energy giving rise to the act of perception.

The connections that I have found are quite eye opening, those being principally:

~ The handling of intent
~ The energetic use of the lower Tan Tien

Hi Stig,

This feels really central to my current focus and practice.
Could you elaborate on these connections?

Thank you,
 

[cheya]

 

 

I'm looking for some authentic information on the assemblage point as per Castenada's books. Is there a Daoist equivalent in the sense of a point for gathering lines of attention which can be shifted and so on. Is it the middle Dan tien?

Any links to Toltec shamanism on this?

Hi Apepch7

Do you know about the book The Promise of Power, by Tomas? It's a reference tool for all of Castenada's works. So you can look up the term "assemblage point," and this book tells you how to locate every reference to that term in all Castenada's books up to and including The Art of Dreaming. There are nearly 20 pages of references for the assemblage point, in very small print! Tomas's book tells you the book, page, and paragraph of each reference. More than 700 pages of references (not text!) It's pretty mind boggling.

It might not help you with the Daoist connections, but you may get a lot clearer about what Castenada was talking about.

 

[Apech]

Great thread y'all!

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Yoda,

 

 

A short version of my thinking about Egypt/assemblage point.

 

The Book of the Dead describes two cycles. The first cycle is about seeing, understanding and absorbing the experience of the nature of reality. The second is about 'becoming' it. Near the beginning of the second cycle is a series of Chapters or Spells dealing with what are called 'transformations'. These start with Ch. 76 " Spell for being transformed into any shape one may wish to take." This is followed by a series of being transformed into various forms such as a gold falcon, a divine falcon ... a lotus, a swallow and so on.

 

The word used for transformation is 'kheperu' a word derived from the verb 'kheper' which means 'come into being', 'change', 'occur or happen' and 'bring about' and so on. This creative transformational process is personified in the god Khepera, the scarab beetle of the morning sun. Interestingly this word is also used when talking about the heart - a sacred scarab was placed on the chest of the mummy to protect the heart, and in Ch. 30b of the BoD. it says "O my heart of my mother, O my heart of my mother, O my heart of my changing forms (kheperu)."

 

So there is a clear link between the heart and this transformational process of changing forms.

 

This reminded me of the Castaneda books where Don Juan changes into a crow and CC into a cayote. I recalled that this was explained in later books as being about a shift in the assemblage point ... e.g. from the strands of awareness of a human to those of a crow. I saw a connection. To the Egyptian the heart was the centre of the mind, will and character. It was involved in a transformational process at a key stage in the BoD reminiscent of shamanistic shape shifting.

 

From this I began to wonder if I cold see anything similar in Daoism. So far the results are inconclusive but I still have hope

 

Thnx to everyone for listening and responding. And hope there is more to be said on this important subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Apepch7

 

Do you know about the book The Promise of Power, by Tomas? It's a reference tool for all of Castenada's works. So you can look up the term "assemblage point," and this book tells you how to locate every reference to that term in all Castenada's books up to and including The Art of Dreaming. There are nearly 20 pages of references for the assemblage point, in very small print! Tomas's book tells you the book, page, and paragraph of each reference. More than 700 pages of references (not text!) It's pretty mind boggling.

 

It might not help you with the Daoist connections, but you may get a lot clearer about what Castenada was talking about.

 

Adeha

 

Hi Cheya,

No I don't know that book but I have the Art of Dreaming which I will look up.

 

Thanks.

Edited November 17, 2008 by apepch7

[Trunk]

I was just not too fan of the egg manouvre idea. thats all.

As far as I know, and imho, the basic thing about the egg is to Light It Up (think "Glinda Bubble"). Resolves all cleverness.

 

Edited November 17, 2008 by Trunk

[Trunk]

OK - its does say "This essay is a current work-in-progress; it'll be filling out over several weeks." - so I was encouraging you to do this, ..

Uh, .. yeah... it's been there for years , just erased that - thanks.

 

"Find the still place in the deep-center

of each of the three centers (power, love, wisdom).

Align those still places.

That alignment opens the central vessel."

What I take from this is that each of the Tan Diens (power - lower, heart - love, upper-wisdom) has at its heart a still centre through which they are linked. This link is the central channel or middle pillar - working with this is about working directly with reality (that is the union of emptiness and appearance, voidity and luminosity or however you express it.) Working in this way means resting in the 'now' in what the Egyptians called 'hotep' (sorry but I don't know the term from other systems). In a way you could say the three centres collapse into each other (this is a way of talking of course).

I agree with almost all of what you said, there, with a few exceptions.

1. I'm not familiar with esoteric Egyptian terms at all, so can't comment - but that you're in the right ball park otherwise so I trust that your steering is probably at least pretty close.

 

2. Your phrase "working directly with reality" and the descriptives afterward were all spot on. I'd only add that "stillness" is really key, in that the "clever maneuvering" that lives in mundane awareness goes still, gets consumed, ain't there. Implied by the classic terms you used, just thought I'd add.

 

3. You mention "In a way you could say the three centres collapse into each other", and I disagree here (unless I miss your meaning). I'd say that the centers become integral with voidness~light, that their mundane activity reverses due to the presence of Light. .. and lots of stuff goes out of existence and comes back. The problem with accessing increasingly powerful states of consciousness is disintegration. MG once said "a bowl strong enough to hold the Tiger's Milk". So, hopefully, the centers become more integral with Light, through the bindus and become both increasingly refined and increasingly coherent.

 

"Find the light in the deep-center

of each of the three centers.

Allow each center's light to transform and absorb

its own surrounding substance and energies

into its deep-center,

promoting each center's stability

as itself."

 

The light in each centre is the resident awareness (or primary awareness) which is an attribute of absolute power (reality), naturally arising from its presence, unconstructed and pure. Each centre has around it resonating energies, physical, emotional and so on which constitiute the kind of energy fabric of the being. The centre's light self-emanating absorbs, or rather acknowledges these as children of its own light and therefore links and binds them into a coherent structure which is able to establish its own stability - that is it becomes a kind of self harmonizing whole.

I'd agree that in personal consciousness, purified centers assist in personal stability, and a greater degree of harmonized centers on a personal level. While in the transcendent states, however, all of that is .. undercut, transcended, consumed, resolved. So, at the personal level: better drawings, at the transcendent: paper 's on fire. (Speaking at least for myself, the personal refinement process is often disappointingly slow and partial. )

 

[Apech]

Trunk,

 

Glad we agree - more or less. Collapsing spheres? Perhaps I meant the distinction between them ceases to be relevant (or something). i.e. think, feel, will becomes 'be'.