Interpreting tao in my life situation.

[gRay]

Basically, ill start by saying recently I was arrested for drinking underage... That by itself has put a huge toll of stress on me because it is my 4th violation of the same offense.. If you missed my intro thread, i will let it be known that I am 18 years old, I have had my problems with substance abuse going through a phase of many drugs, and ultimately figuring out that I did not like them. I smoked marijuana, I did cocaine, I did psychedelics etc. And I haven't touched any of those for 2 years. I like going up and being social with my friends and I do like alcohol. In every part of the world except the USA, its legal for an 18 year old to drink. Aside from the law, I do understand that I might of had a problem with drinking, and this being my 4th underage consumption ticket, I have decided to lay off the booze for a while and instead look for happiness in other places. I had been interested in taoism before the ticket, but it seems that the ticket has given me another reason to pursue the teachings of Lao tzu. I have looked for information on alcohol and taoism and justice / crime and Taoism but have not had much luck finding anything. All I know is that moderation is key, and that it is impossible to find inner peace with substances blocking your mind / body etc. (At least that is i how i interpreted what I have read regarding the topic) Anyway, I have been stressing out over my court date, and trying to rationalize the whole experience, this just brought me more stress so after reading the tao of pooh, i realized I should not worry as much and it would work itself out. The anxiety I was dealing with dissapeared, but i still worry in the back of my mind a little. I was just wondering if anyone had any insight towards these issues from a Taoist perspective. Was drinking underage necessarily wrong? if in moderation is it?

 

does taoism have any text on justice? (right/wrong)

any thing else that you think would be beneficial to me?

 

I love reading and am always interested in expanding my knowledge on subjects that I find interesting, thanks in advance for any replies!!

[Mal]

[Pietro]

Basically, ill start by saying recently I was arrested for drinking underage... That by itself has put a huge toll of stress on me because it is my 4th violation of the same offense.. If you missed my intro thread, i will let it be known that I am 18 years old, I have had my problems with substance abuse going through a phase of many drugs, and ultimately figuring out that I did not like them. I smoked marijuana, I did cocaine, I did psychedelics etc. And I haven't touched any of those for 2 years. I like going up and being social with my friends and I do like alcohol. In every part of the world except the USA, its legal for an 18 year old to drink. Aside from the law, I do understand that I might of had a problem with drinking, and this being my 4th underage consumption ticket, I have decided to lay off the booze for a while and instead look for happiness in other places. I had been interested in taoism before the ticket, but it seems that the ticket has given me another reason to pursue the teachings of Lao tzu. I have looked for information on alcohol and taoism and justice / crime and Taoism but have not had much luck finding anything. All I know is that moderation is key, and that it is impossible to find inner peace with substances blocking your mind / body etc. (At least that is i how i interpreted what I have read regarding the topic) Anyway, I have been stressing out over my court date, and trying to rationalize the whole experience, this just brought me more stress so after reading the tao of pooh, i realized I should not worry as much and it would work itself out. The anxiety I was dealing with dissapeared, but i still worry in the back of my mind a little. I was just wondering if anyone had any insight towards these issues from a Taoist perspective. Was drinking underage necessarily wrong? if in moderation is it?

 

does taoism have any text on justice? (right/wrong)

any thing else that you think would be beneficial to me?

 

I love reading and am always interested in expanding my knowledge on subjects that I find interesting, thanks in advance for any replies!!

 

Mal has very wise words.

 

Among Taoist texts you might want to read the IChing.

 

Don't throw it (i.e. the coins, not the book , I mean, also don't throw the book, and never throw the book at someone, especially the big hardcover version, it would be a shame, as it could get ruined).

 

Just read it, as if it was a novel, from cover to cover.

 

BtW, You asked an interesting question:

 

Was drinking underage necessarily wrong? if in moderation is it?

 

I feel you are asking this from your heart, so instead to give you a direct answer (for what would be worth), let me share with you the taoist process with which you can find your own answer.

 

Let me rephrase this, in a Taoist way, as I learned from my teacher.

 

Dear gRay, is drinking underage wrong? (yes/no) why?

 

And now please do answer the why question; I don't care much about the yes/no answer, but I do care for your explenation about it.

 

But here is one basic rule:

 

You are not allowed to use or invoke any external authority in your answer.

 

That is, you cannot say any: "because x, y and z said ...", nor "because it is written in r, s, and t".

 

The answer must come from within youself, and it will come from within yourself if you struggle with the question long enough, and you do not let any external authority answer for you.

 

Once you have answered the first question, you will still need to answer a few more questions:

 

Is drinking underage, in moderation, wrong? why? (same process)

And when does "being underage" ends? why?

When does it starts?

And how much is "in moderation"? why?

And what constitutes "drinking"? How many degrees of alcohol in the liquid?

And if you drink the day of your birthday, is that still wrong?

What if you start drinking before the midnight, but gulp after the midnight. Is that still wrong?

What if you don't drink the liquid, but get in in other ways. Would it be wrong to get it through your nose, for example. Or directly in vein? Or up your ass? Are some of those ok, and others not ok? When would they be ok, and when would they not be ok? Why?

 

I know all those questions might sound funny, but the process that I am pointing to is very serious.

 

Now, the answer is personal, that is, what is the answer for you wil not necessarily be the answer for me. I too go through a similar process. But most human beings, when they go through this process they end up with very similar ethics. Never exactly the same, but fundamentally similar.

 

So get those questions, struggle with them, answer them, but don't let yourself sit on anyone else answer.

 

This is the Taoist way, with which you develop your internal sense of what is proper & cool and what is not & uncool, as it was presented and explained to me by my teacher.

 

And if you think that the questions I am suggesting you to answer are too strange...

that's just because you have not heard the ones I had to struggle with!

 

P.S. if you decide that the best way to get alcohol is not through your mouth, and they find you... do not mention my name nor this website, ok!

 

 

EDITED FOR GRAMMAR

Edited November 18, 2008 by Pietro

[gendao]

With every decision in your life, from smallest to biggest - you have the choice of holistic life or misusaged anti-life. You reap the cumulative effects of all your choices at the end of the day. So, if you consistently choose anti-life...you will reap anti-life results. If you choose 65% pro-life choices, that's what you'll reap.

 

For example, do you get out in the sunlight some during the day and sleep when it's dark? Or do you stay indoors all during the day hunched in front of a pooter and stay up late at night watching TV?

 

As a simple example, a choice just as simple as that (day in, day out) has an incredible influence on your health. Vitamin D and serotonin are produced with exposure to sunlight. Vitamin D prevents osteoporosis, increases immunity, etc and serotonin is a potent antidepressant, etc. Melatonin is secreted at night (with complete darkness) and is also a potent anticarcinogen, as well as a precursor to entheogens. The body also detoxes at night, starting around 9:30 PM or so - ideally if you're asleep.

 

Therefore, if you wake up and spend some time outdoors during the day and go to bed early without artificial lights on, your health will improve IMMENSELY. So simple and natural - yet powerful! And if not, you are misusing your body out of harmony with your environment. This, on the gross level, is what is meant by living in harmony with Nature Taofully. Understanding and respecting the grand design to our bodies and lives - as opposed to circumventing them with technology.

 

And it extends from our personal lives to corporations to society at large...which will also reap what it sows from all our choices.

y9Vhivi6nws

Now, you may only be responsible for society as a whole a fraction of a percent, but you are 100% responsible for the choices you make in your own life. We all are. So, make the best choices you can at every "Hopi" fork, and you will enjoy better results in the long run.

Edited November 18, 2008 by vortex

[Ryan T.]

Taoists, at least in story form, are able to avoid such worldly conflicts by "flowing/being one with the Way".

 

That is all I am going to say related to your questions about Taoism/alcohol/justice. A Taoist lifestyle can help one to avoid such situations.

 

But from my own personal experience you seem to be skirting a major issue...YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH ALCOHOL! "Right" or "Wrong". The laws that you live under tell you that you are not allowed to consume alcohol due to your age. Yet you do it over and over again. I would ask what compels you to do these things in spite of your previous "bad luck" in getting caught. Drug and alcohol use/experimentation is all too common in our society today and does not necessarily mean a person is headed towards addiction. But 18? 4 underage consumptions? I might take a hard look at what is driving you. Taoism can help. But it is something like 1 in 10 will be addicts.

[gRay]

Thank you all very much for the personalized and sincere posts, it is much appreciated!

Mal: I definitely have thought about being pro-active with the alcohol education program or what not, At this point I am starting to understand how important it is to limit myself to the vices I have depended on. Out of the friends I have I was probably the one who was encouraging the majority of the drinking so I dont think it will be a problem being sober around them. I will definitely check out chang tzu, ty for the recommendation.

 

Pietro: Ill definitely look at these questions and try to answer them accordingly, your post helped me realize how the process of examining the questions from my self instead of the external so called "answers" could be very beneficial.

 

vortex: are you speaking of moderation in this paragraph?

With every decision in your life, from smallest to biggest - you have the choice of holistic life or misusaged anti-life. You reap the cumulative effects of all your choices at the end of the day. So, if you consistently choose anti-life...you will reap anti-life results. If you choose 65% pro-life choices, that's what you'll reap.

and the best decisions are hard to see sometimes from my perspective, hopefully in time I can figure this out =)

 

hua na da:

But from my own personal experience you seem to be skirting a major issue...YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH ALCOHOL! "Right" or "Wrong". The laws that you live under tell you that you are not allowed to consume alcohol due to your age. Yet you do it over and over again. I would ask what compels you to do these things in spite of your previous "bad luck" in getting caught. Drug and alcohol use/experimentation is all too common in our society today and does not necessarily mean a person is headed towards addiction. But 18? 4 underage consumptions? I might take a hard look at what is driving you. Taoism can help. But it is something like 1 in 10 will be addicts.

 

I know all about the statistics and what not, and I have struggled with this as well... Where I get hung up is the laws that I live under. I struggle with them because of the whole "robin hood theory".

If I am constantly told that I am an alcoholic due to the laws that govern me.... id think id be more likely to be an alcoholic. If i grew up in a society where alcohol was legal to consume at my age. would I not just be another normal kid? with each consumption ticket, and each set of classes i have attended it seems that I have began to drink more...(up until now) I hope this doesn't sound like an excuse or anything, that is not what I am trying to say, I just think the circumstances that surround the society I live in have some type of effect on the situation. Maybe it is the rebellion factor that every generation of youth experiences, im not sure. but you are right, i do need to look at the relationship with alcohol..

[picnic]

does taoism have any text on justice? (right/wrong)

any thing else that you think would be beneficial to me?

"the more laws, the more criminals" - that is one (adapted) quote that I like from the TTC.

 

For all else, you write clearly, sound intelligent and i'm sure you will have a good life. I had all sorts of fun as a young adult, didn't get caught tho and these days I would say it is impossible to grow up without crossing the path of substances. Some even open useful doors, some teach you other lessons.

 

I feel that laws are a failure, I feel you know best for yourself, you learn and in your case, you are learning and sound smart enough, so good luck in your life Moderation until peace is found, and when it is you may find such needs fall away. When your mind is strong you don't need such things. Yet at 18 you should be having lots of fun! so do, and if nothing else, be happy, stay smart, have fun and spread what you learn

[gRay]

"the more laws, the more criminals" - that is one (adapted) quote that I like from the TTC.

 

For all else, you write clearly, sound intelligent and i'm sure you will have a good life. I had all sorts of fun as a young adult, didn't get caught tho and these days I would say it is impossible to grow up without crossing the path of substances. Some even open useful doors, some teach you other lessons.

 

I feel that laws are a failure, I feel you know best for yourself, you learn and in your case, you are learning and sound smart enough, so good luck in your life Moderation until peace is found, and when it is you may find such needs fall away. When your mind is strong you don't need such things. Yet at 18 you should be having lots of fun! so do, and if nothing else, be happy, stay smart, have fun and spread what you learn

 

I could not agree more, thank you for the words of wisdom.. That alone eased my mind more than you could imagine lol.

[wuliheron]

There are a few books on the subject, but this is the most Taoistic of all that I am aware of. It does not provide a program, just some things to think about and meditate on, but I like it.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=bl8Gnyan3...=result#PPP1,M1

 

Only you can decide if you have a substance abuse problem, but it certainly sounds like you have a headstart on developing one. You probably already know that avoiding your drug of choice while still continuing to use another substance will likely lead to trouble later. I wonder, do you binge drink? If so, this is another sign of trouble down the road.

 

If you are interested in Buddhism and a more structured approach the following book is excellent.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Sobriety-Helping...n/dp/0312242506

[Mal]

[Bum Grasshopper]

Meditation will help greatly with alcohol dependence. If you are not meditating yet, start today. Two 20 minute sessions a day should do it.

[rafael0708]

Was drinking underage necessarily wrong? if in moderation is it?

 

I'm more familiar with Buddhism so I'll use that perspective - besides, both Buddhism and Taoism are (in their own ways) about skillful living, which is probably why they blend well together (Zen or Chan Buddhism was greatly influenced by Taoism). I wouldn't say that drinking underage was "wrong" - just unskilled. It was unskilled because despite knowing the laws of US, your history of substance abuse, and having previously experienced the unpleasant results of being caught drinking underage, you still chose to do it. Does this make you "bad", "evil" or, in your words, "wrong"? No. What it means is that you haven't learned to be more mindful of the choices you make and their possible consequences. Unskillful ways lead to suffering, skillful ways do not.

Edited November 19, 2008 by rafael0708

[rafael0708]

I forgot to address your additional question, "if in moderation, is it?" so here goes:

 

What you need to ask yourself is, is it truly skillful to do so? Now in terms of your health, moderate drinking may be seen as skillful. But remember, as far as society as concerned, you're underage and if you are caught drinking, there are legal consequences for you. Now you can say "well f**k society" - and believe me, you wouldn't be the first or the last one to do so. But even that has consequences that you might not be willing to pay. You need to therefore weigh the risks involved in continuing to drink underage and ask yourself "is underage drinking worth the risks involved?"

 

You've read the Tao of Pooh, so did I. It's a great book for us newbies - but don't let it fool you into thinking that being a Taoist and living in accord with the Tao is all about being happy-go-lucky and easygoing. Anybody can jump into a raft and let the river carry them along its path. But staying on the raft, looking ahead for dangerous rapids, steering clear of them when possible and paddling hard to get through them when unavoidable - these require skill. Same with your life, my friend.

[gendao]

vortex: are you speaking of moderation in this paragraph?

No.

 

I'm saying that every step you take either gets you closer to or farther from your goal. Don't ration-a-lies and fool yourself.

 

If you are feeding addictions, those would be leading you away from resolving your underlying issues and delaying your ascension.

 

Although at the same time, all mistakes are learning experiences...

 

 

BTW, sorry if I sound judgmental. However, I believe this applies to everyone, and I spend a lot of time clearing myself as well...

[gRay]

[Bum Grasshopper]

.

 

Grasshopper

I am currently not meditating, I work at a busy sports grill and often have to work 10 or 12 hour shifts =/. I think I could find the time to meditate but I am not really sure how to go about it... Any type of guide on the subject would be much appreciated.

 

I also am currently prescribed adderall for ADD/ADHD.. I plan to stop taking the medication at some point but as of know I dont know that I am ready.. If you are not familiar with the medication, it is basically a form of speed, 4 amphetamine salts on a pharmaceutical level. It helps even me out, and mellow me out. I am not sure if ADHD is even a legitamite ailment, but I live a busy life and it does seem to help keep me on track. I am sure that meditation and other natural ways could probably due the same thing that the medication does, but for know, I think I am going to continue use for a few months.

Sometimes, the medication forces my mind in to a constant state of thought, I figured this would complicate meditation. Regardless I would be very interested in meditation if possible while taking my prescription.

I have woken up many a times and thought about this. I understand this, and I try to be "skillful" so to speak when making choices, alcohol does impair judgment and maybe my choices were not very wise, when I got my most recent ticket I was biking to a location where I could receive a free shuttle ride home. Thus avoiding the consequences of a D.U.I or consequences of riding with a drunk driver. I thought I was in the clear by making the smart choice Maybe, I shouldn't of been drinking at all that night, but I was, and in doing so I made an effort to chose the lesser of two evils.

On your post regarding moderation...

I have asked myself the question 100 times.. I only have 2 or 3 years to go until I can legally consume alcohol. I do not think that holding off on alcohol, or consuming very little would do anything except help me.

I think this is one of the situations that I need to paddle hard to get through.. simply, unavoidable.

I feel you there, but why haven't I learned from the first 3 times. I made a pact to myself after my 3rd ticket saying if I received a 4th ticket, I would dramatically cut back on drinking. Maybe the fact that I am dealing with all of this now is a blessing in disguise, I have responsibilities and commitments to maintain, but they are nothing compared to what I will have in 15 years. I cant help but think that I am doing myself a favor by understanding all of this at a young age. at least trying to understand it.

 

Thanks again for the responses, and if anyone has any input on the meditation / adderall factor it would be much appreciated!

 

-Big up!

 

 

 

When I started meditating a year ago, I was on antidepressants and drugs for restless leg syndrome. I also was drinking a lot and have had 2 previous DUI's. After starting my path of the Tao, I stumbled on this site and the posters convinved me to start a seated meditation routine.

 

Within a month, the RLS seemed to get worse. The fact was that the medication was too strong. I stopped taking them and the RLS was gone!! Then I stopped taking antidepressants with no ill effect.

 

I no longer feel the desire to drink to excess. If I do drink, 1 or 2 are fine, although on a few occasions I have looped one on (when I didn't have to drive).

 

I too used to work in a busy kitchen 10-12 hours a day (I am recently unemployed), so I feel your time restraint. Another side effect of the meditation is that it lowered my need for sleep. I feel fine on just 4-6 hours, where before I needed 8-10 to feel 100%

 

I would meditate for 20 minutes on my lunch break (who needs to eat on your lunch break when you are the cook!), this reduced the stress level from working in a pressure cooker. Then again before I went to bed. This helped me get a good nights sleep.

 

I am a big fan of brainwave entrainment. BWE has been scientifically proven to help with ADHD. It also puts you in a meditative state effortlessly. If you are interested, I can post a few programs in MP3 format you can try.

[gRay]

When I started meditating a year ago, I was on antidepressants and drugs for restless leg syndrome. I also was drinking a lot and have had 2 previous DUI's. After starting my path of the Tao, I stumbled on this site and the posters convinved me to start a seated meditation routine.

 

Within a month, the RLS seemed to get worse. The fact was that the medication was too strong. I stopped taking them and the RLS was gone!! Then I stopped taking antidepressants with no ill effect.

 

I no longer feel the desire to drink to excess. If I do drink, 1 or 2 are fine, although on a few occasions I have looped one on (when I didn't have to drive).

 

I too used to work in a busy kitchen 10-12 hours a day (I am recently unemployed), so I feel your time restraint. Another side effect of the meditation is that it lowered my need for sleep. I feel fine on just 4-6 hours, where before I needed 8-10 to feel 100%

 

I would meditate for 20 minutes on my lunch break (who needs to eat on your lunch break when you are the cook!), this reduced the stress level from working in a pressure cooker. Then again before I went to bed. This helped me get a good nights sleep.

 

I am a big fan of brainwave entrainment. BWE has been scientifically proven to help with ADHD. It also puts you in a meditative state effortlessly. If you are interested, I can post a few programs in MP3 format you can try.

 

I would definetly be interested in giving this a shot, just looked up BWE and it seems very interesting. =)

[Bum Grasshopper]

I would definetly be interested in giving this a shot, just looked up BWE and it seems very interesting. =)

 

Here you go:

 

ADHD file

 

Alpha file

 

To use these files, you must find a comfortable place to sit and not be disturbed. Try to be as relaxed as possible. Close your eyes and take a few deep breaths. Scan your body for tension. Work this tension out the best you can as entrainment works best when you are fully relaxed. Then put your headphones/earbuds on and turn on your player. Close your eyes and draw your attention to the pulses. Don't concentrate too hard, just relax and listen to them. Do not attach yourself to any thoughts, just look at them as "only thoughts" and let them fade away.

 

HEADPHONES MUST BE USED WITH THESE SESSIONS. THE ADHD SESSION YOU MUST HAVE THE CORRECT RIGHT/LEFT SPEAKERS ON YOUR EARS

 

The ADHD session speeds up the left hemisphere with beta waves while focusing the right with SMR waves. It is very important to have the correct sounds to each ear.

 

The alpha program is an anxiety reduction session that offsets the pulses slightly to each ear. This has been shown to help those with "chattery" minds. It is not necessary to have the correct R/L, but I would keep them the same for a while, and maybe try switching them if you are having trouble entraining.

 

I would use the ADHD session exclusively 2X a day every day for a few weeks, then start working in some alpha sessions. If you can't do 2, then do 1. If you can't do a whole session, that's O.K. too. If you feel your mind racing, relax, you are still benefiting. If you feel your ADHD getting worse, it may mean you need your prescription adjusted. Check with your Dr.

 

P.M. me if you have any specific questions.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Bum Grasshopper

[Pietro]

 

My Rapidshare folder

 

 

Hi Bum G.,

Hmm, you might need to look at the link you provided.

As it is right now it only let a person look into their rapidshare folder.

So that is the url that you need to use to take back the file. Is not the one that we need to use.

 

Looking forward to hear yur files,

Pietro

[Bum Grasshopper]

I have edited the link. I should work now. Sorry, I am still ignorant when it comes to these matters, but I'm learning

[Pietro]

I have edited the link. I should work now. Sorry, I am still ignorant when it comes to these matters, but I'm learning

Thanks.

 

I never used those sounds before. Except for a couple of time. There are two or three programs for the iphone who give them. Each program have maybe 10 different sounds. Have you tried them? What's your take? P.

[Bum Grasshopper]

I think they are invaluable to beginning meditators to quickly get it. Experienced meditators can use it to control where they want to go and what they want to accomplish. Alpha puts you in a light meditative state conducive to suggestions and visualizations. Theta is for deep meditation and connection to the subconscious. Beta has been proven to boost I.Q. Not much research has been done with gamma brainwaves, but it is found that Tibetan monks emit loads of gamma when doing supernatural stuff like melting the snow around them with their body heat.

 

If you are interested in a certain program, let me know and I will shoot one your way.

[gRay]

EDIT-

 

Nevermind, I clicked the wrong link lol.. Downloading now, will look in to it when I get off work, thanks again grasshopper!

Edited November 20, 2008 by gRay

[Bum Grasshopper]

Thanks.

 

I never used those sounds before. Except for a couple of time. There are two or three programs for the iphone who give them. Each program have maybe 10 different sounds. Have you tried them? What's your take? P.

 

 

Sorry. I think I misunderstood your question. No I have not tried the iphone programs. I have the Nero- Programmer2 which has hundreds of programs and allows you to customize them or even create your own from scratch.

 

What are they calling these programs?

[Pietro]

Sorry. I think I misunderstood your question. No I have not tried the iphone programs. I have the Nero- Programmer2 which has hundreds of programs and allows you to customize them or even create your own from scratch.

 

What are they calling these programs?

Hi, thanks for getting back to me.

The programs are:

mindwave, mindfreak and BinauralBeat.

 

 

mindwave, mindfreak are produced by the same company with mindfreak for crazy stuff:

astral projection, crazy high, out of body, 3drd eye float and weightless

 

mindwave is more on the healthy side:

study aid, sleep induction, relaxation, deep meditation, coffee, mentally refreshed, and many more

 

 

and binauralbeat let you put a binauaral tone on the background of some more "usual" sounds like birds flying, or ants singing, and so on.

 

None of them let you really control the binaural tone. (although there is a new binauralbeat available).

 

All those things are on my totest when I have time list, somwhere on the second or third chapter.

 

Your program seem to be the real deal. But is neuro programmer, right? Nero programmer gives me no results. Too bad is only for windows.

 

To tell you the truth what I am really looking forward is eventually getting a brain olotester, one of those things that you plug in your head (there should be an usb behind the ear, I assume, but I never could find one ) and measure the brain wave activity. The brain olotester is nice, and they made some nice experiments. Unfortunately it is not precise enough to be considered valid from a university perspective which is why it is so cheap, and which is why the results are not considered.

 

There should also be somwhere a machine that gets your brain wave, transforms them into sound and feeds them back to you. Imagine making love with a girl where you are hearing her brain waves and she is hearing yours. ;-)