The Taoism Greets

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Unconditioned]

Mak Tin Si,

 

First, please I ask that you don't read into my questions, I mean no disrespect but am asking because I just don't understand.

 

I have read a few of your posts this morning and you seem to put a lot of emphasis on lineage and ethics within Taoism. I see the practical side of this for society to function, for others to know where we're coming from easily, etc. However, if one focuses on internal cultivation (strengthening awareness, removing false associations (samskaras), observation, etc.) wouldn't the proper ethics be a natural result? What does the material color of my clothes have to do with my ability and focus to realize Truth?

 

For example, if one realizes what they truly are then they will naturally begin to show respect to others. They will radiate pure love, not emotional love. Out of respect, they will show up when they say they will.

 

Also, how do we account for things that are out of our control when it comes to ethics? For example, if I tell someone that I will see them at 3pm and my car breaks down.

 

I have always struggled with tradition and a set code of ethics because personally I feel constricted. If I do not live by a set code of ethics, I am free to learn from my mistakes. I am free to understand what my actions do to another and to myself.

 

So, what is the root of ethics in Taoism? What purpose does it serve? It all needs to be let go and removed from our being so that we can shine in our purest form, so why force the addition of another layer to later be removed?

[Wayfarer64]

Mak Tin Si,

 

First, please I ask that you don't read into my questions, I mean no disrespect but am asking because I just don't understand.

 

I have read a few of your posts this morning and you seem to put a lot of emphasis on lineage and ethics within Taoism. I see the practical side of this for society to function, for others to know where we're coming from easily, etc. However, if one focuses on internal cultivation (strengthening awareness, removing false associations (samskaras), observation, etc.) wouldn't the proper ethics be a natural result? What does the material color of my clothes have to do with my ability and focus to realize Truth?

 

For example, if one realizes what they truly are then they will naturally begin to show respect to others. They will radiate pure love, not emotional love. Out of respect, they will show up when they say they will.

 

Also, how do we account for things that are out of our control when it comes to ethics? For example, if I tell someone that I will see them at 3pm and my car breaks down.

 

I have always struggled with tradition and a set code of ethics because personally I feel constricted. If I do not live by a set code of ethics, I am free to learn from my mistakes. I am free to understand what my actions do to another and to myself.

 

So, what is the root of ethics in Taoism? What purpose does it serve? It all needs to be let go and removed from our being so that we can shine in our purest form, so why force the addition of another layer to later be removed?

 

Good points made here. I offer great respect to all who write for us here as well...But sometimes think that an adherance to lineage narrows options more than they open minds to some purity that may be inherent to any lineage and thus espoused after their transference... but hey, different strokes may not apply in this case!

[宁]

Ok, let me take a shot at it...

I may have mentioned in one or two other threads that the notion of freedom as we understand it, and Taoism, exclude each other.

It's not easy to understand that, and it's not hard, also.

 

To "merge" with the Tao, to "abide" by it's laws, means you disconnect from a set of laws (social and energetic thermodynamics), and re-connect to the laws of nature.

 

Which means you jump from one set of laws, with a predictible outcome - suffering, disease, aging, and death...

...To another set of laws, which you strife thru your lifestyle, to prove.

You are the proof:

no more illness,

no more mental and emotional chaos and suffering,

aging slowing down or even stopping,

and then the great leap into the unknown, as an immortal maybe?

 

Bruce Lee believed in no styles. For him, styles, schools, don't exist. Because men and women have only two arms and two legs. That's what he believed. Yet, he had to develop his school, his style, the style of no style, Jeet Kune Do.

Depending on the Time, and Space, there have been settled different types of algorythms, for the human being to connect to the Great Beyound. What makes them different is precisely the fact that they have been designed in different Times and in different Spaces.

 

It's like going on a trip: take your train, buy your tickets, jump in, enjoy the ride, and go all the way. If you'll jump from one train to another, where do you expect you'll end up?

 

I think the above line of thought can be an answer to the ethical problem that has been raised above txt.

 

Thanx.

 

L1

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Many people will see buddhist in the movies greets with a palm and saying "oh Mi tau fu" 阿彌陀佛．

 

In Taoism, we usually dress in a set of white clothing, black shoes and a blue or black robe on top, with a hat, and then when we see anybody, we greet with both palms closed like how buddha do and do a slight bow, saying 無量天尊 Mo Leung Tin Juen, "Wu Liang Tien Juan" meaning "infinite amount of god bless you"

 

This phrase could also be modified with 福生無量天尊 Fuk Sang Mo Leung Tin Juen, meaning "fortune will be with you from the infinite of god in taoism"

 

When one got greet by a taoist, they return with a bow with both palms closed in front of their chest.

 

When two taoist meets, they will sometimes greet with a hand sign that represent their school or lineage so the others could know what branch they are in by knowing the hand sign. This is very rarely seen now because not much people know about the hand sign. That is why you could see the statues of the god in taoism are all holding different hand sign. They are showing you which lineage they are training in!

 

Wish you all the best in Taoism trianing!

無量天尊　Mo Leung Tin Juen

 

Taoism needs no Gods. The Tao is not something to be worshiped and ritualized.

[picnic]

Good points, especially...

 

What does the material color of my clothes have to do with my ability and focus to realize Truth?

 

For example, if one realizes what they truly are then they will naturally begin to show respect to others. They will radiate pure love, not emotional love. Out of respect, they will show up when they say they will.

[Spirit Ape]

Who knows what the truth is maybe these mantras and ways of living in Taoist Temples with gods are real, you are learning just the cultivation side of Taoism if you have not done any Religious Taoism or Ritual Taoism how can you say there is no gods or worshipping to be done. There gods are also Nature!

 

my 2cents!

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Who knows what the truth is maybe these mantras and ways of living in Taoist Temples with gods are real, you are learning just the cultivation side of Taoism if you have not done any Religious Taoism or Ritual Taoism how can you say there is no gods or worshipping to be done. There gods are also Nature!

 

my 2cents!

 

There is no reverence of the Tao as a deity in the core ancient text. Any diety, or magic that was incorporated into Taoism from outside sources (Chinese folk religion, Confucianism, Buddhism) has little relevence in the Tao Te Ching. I believe that ritual is important in a psychological, community and focusing sense, but I do not believe that Taoism should have a dogmatic ritualization systematized into the metaphysical and epistomological aspects of it as it is limiting (i.e. to reach to the Tao you must do this, or, this god says you must do this) And no, I do not know if there is any gods, nor do you, nor does anyone. Again, I do not see the Tao as a diety to be worshiped, I see it as something (and nothing and everything, etc.) to be realized. I do not think anyone can realize the Tao by becoming too attached to Taoism as a system.

[rookie]

Here is a question, pretty simple but.....

 

Do you think that the telling of the rituals is to help you feel comfortable and maybe know what is going on if you go to the temple?

 

It seems to be a gracious gesture to me.

[picnic]

Here is a question, pretty simple but.....

 

Do you think that the telling of the rituals is to help you feel comfortable and maybe know what is going on if you go to the temple?

 

It seems to be a gracious gesture to me.

"When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.

When goodness is lost, there is morality.

When morality is lost, there is ritual.

"

[rookie]

"When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.

When goodness is lost, there is morality.

When morality is lost, there is ritual.

"

 

 

everyone has riuals

examine your own life honestly and you should find many

do you judge yoursefl as harshly?

[goldisheavy]

I have always struggled with tradition and a set code of ethics because personally I feel constricted.

 

I realize you didn't address this to me, but you did post on a public forum, so I am replying anyway. If you read Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu), which I highly recommend, there are countless passages that repudiate tradition and fixed ethical systems. I am not even going to bother to quote them.

 

This "religion" Taoism has nothing to do with the real Taoism, and it's just a piss poor attempt to establish a religious community that is competitive with other religious communities. This started to happen with Buddhism's arrival in China, when Taoists started to having to compete with Buddhists and their monasteries and rigid rules and all the showy robes and such. Taoism stems from shamanism, which by nature is not focused on showiness and nor is it focused on social approval. This one thing that endeared Taoists more to me than Buddhists -- the relatively more open mind about rules, focus on essential rather than the superficial, unlike with Buddhists, which constantly get trapped in superficial dogmatism, is being destroyed by guys like Mak Tin Si and their ilk.

 

This guy Mak Tin Si doesn't understand that in the West, people are drawn to Taoism because they are sick of dogma and just want pure spirituality without the closed-minded ritualistic and tribalistic bullshit. He can't understand this because he's probably from China and is not in touch with the Western culture, where most of us are seriously sick of religion and its lies.

 

A ritual can have a place in one's life, but only when it is sacred TO YOU and not an imposition on you by tradition. And rituals are completely unnecessary. In Hua Hu Ching we are advised to avoid structured practice. In Zhuangzi there is talk of people who are not ruled, and yet are not unruly. That's very important. In the "Seven Taoist Masters" book there is an example of an immortal-to-be meditating doggedly in the same spot over and over, until someone comes up to him and starts polishing a stone. The immortal-to-be asks, why polish a stone? Reply, "To make a mirror". Then this immortal-to-be realized he was being too formal and rigid in his practice. He abandoned formal meditation and started to travel and even stopped at some river and helped to carry many people there across the waters. This was one of the stupidest immortals who ascended last. The examples in taoist literature that warn people against the rigid practice are everywhere. However, forget the literature. Look to your own intuition and reason. See for yourself what works and what is just showy fluff.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Tao99]

You should show some respect and neutrality for a person's religion and religious practices. That is the Tao. It this a Taoist website? It sure doesn't seem it. So Taoism believes in the self-spirit and heavens and gods. Get over it. If you don't like Taoism, go your own way, we don't care. But don't snipe about someone's religious practices. Because for us, that is not following the Tao.

 

Did you even know that gods are mentioned in the Tao Te Ching? And spirit? As well as in many Taoist schools?

 

Feng/English Translation -

 

4

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things! Blunt the sharpness, Untangle the knot, Soften the glare, Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present! I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the gods.

 

This means that even the gods including the supreme God follows the Tao, which is the one, universal way of essence and life.

[Baguakid]

Good post Gold, especially:

 

This guy Mak Tin Si doesn't understand that in the West, people are drawn to Taoism because they are sick of dogma and just want pure spirituality without the closed-minded ritualistic and tribalistic bullshit. He can't understand this because he's probably from China and is not in touch with the Western culture, where most of us are seriously sick of religion and its lies.

 

Why not make a "Religious Taoism" subforum for those interested in this type of Taoist activities?

[HupGerk]

Spot on Tao99!

 

HG

[Spirit Ape]

Yeah, i cant believe this joint, honestly look at this crap! A taoist master comes on here to spread his sect and taoist information and we dont have one Taoist master among us and you want to treat this person like sh!t. But heaven forbids we speak of the mighty Lama you know who and people get banned.

 

This guy has so far explained many things be it religious or just plan cultivation i think you all should lighten up and allow your minds to adjust to something that isnt Kunlun and golden flower, red phoenix.

 

I think we could all learn something if you give him a chance he isnt here saying come to me and ill teach you there is no Matrix bagua or anything he is just here sharing something about Taoism.

 

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

4

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things! Blunt the sharpness, Untangle the knot, Soften the glare, Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present! I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the gods.

 

This means that even the gods including the supreme God follows the Tao, which is the one, universal way of essence and life.

 

It could not possibly be a time transcending metaphor!

OR

maybe it is.

[ZenStatic]

Good post Gold, especially:

Why not make a "Religious Taoism" subforum for those interested in this type of Taoist activities?

 

Because this IS a taoist forum, and its a taoist topic. Things should be segregated to as not offend your sensibilities?

[Baguakid]

ha ha ha ... you really are lost aren't you?

[Unconditioned]

You should show some respect and neutrality for a person's religion and religious practices. That is the Tao. It this a Taoist website? It sure doesn't seem it. So Taoism believes in the self-spirit and heavens and gods. Get over it. If you don't like Taoism, go your own way, we don't care. But don't snipe about someone's religious practices. Because for us, that is not following the Tao.

 

Did you even know that gods are mentioned in the Tao Te Ching? And spirit? As well as in many Taoist schools?

 

Feng/English Translation -

 

4

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.

Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things! Blunt the sharpness, Untangle the knot, Soften the glare, Merge with dust.

Oh, hidden deep but ever present! I do not know from whence it comes.

It is the forefather of the gods.

 

This means that even the gods including the supreme God follows the Tao, which is the one, universal way of essence and life.

 

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. "It is the forefather of the gods" means that it comes BEFORE the idea of gods or even the existence of God/gods. This is where dogma, tradition, and religion in general can get us into trouble - interpretation of symbols. We color them with our own backgrounds.

 

What this passage means is:

The Tao is not some 'thing'. It is completely empty. However, it is the SOURCE of everything that is not the Tao, the material objects, thoughts, perception, etc. (i.e., "ten thousand things"). It is hidden deep only because we have buried the Tao with all our ignorance. We have buried it with all of our conditioning, false assumptions of what life and reality are. It is the source from where our ideas of God come from and if they do exist, even the 'physical' aspect of a God is from the purest source, the Tao.

 

Can people choose to add religion to the Tao? Sure! But that is religion, that is not the Tao nor is it Taoism. It is the tradition and religion of Taoism, not Taoism itself. Taoism is a way of life, it's living without conditioning, it's living enlightenment in the most pure way, in complete harmony with the nature of nature.

 

Hope this helps,

-Nate

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Unconditioned]

Yeah, i cant believe this joint, honestly look at this crap! A taoist master comes on here to spread his sect and taoist information and we dont have one Taoist master among us and you want to treat this person like sh!t. But heaven forbids we speak of the mighty Lama you know who and people get banned.

 

This guy has so far explained many things be it religious or just plan cultivation i think you all should lighten up and allow your minds to adjust to something that isnt Kunlun and golden flower, red phoenix.

 

I think we could all learn something if you give him a chance he isnt here saying come to me and ill teach you there is no Matrix bagua or anything he is just here sharing something about Taoism.

 

 

Spirit Ape,

 

I absolutely respect them for their devotion and willingness to share their path with us however I had posted my original response not in judgment but out of not understanding their path given what I currently know about Taoism, life, reality, etc.

 

Unless we question we will only be digesting another person's opinion. To make it our own, we should understand what it is first rather than blindly excepting what someone says as truth.

 

I don't think anyone is giving them a hard time, just expressing their opinions much like you are free to react to their opinion they are free to share their thoughts. Whether or not it affects us is a personal choice.

 

All the best,

-Nate