Taoism, Taoist

[ZenStatic]

lostmonk,

 

Or He needs to try to understand our culture and develop a 'thicker skin'. This is a forum which things can be debated and discussed openly which is different than in person so ppl can respond in a more brash way. I'm not saying it's the best but it does have some advantages. It means the response will be looked at from all sides and be taken apart left and right. If it holds up, great. If not, there's a problem. Outside of a forum ppl's ideas are not usually challanged in this way. I think it's good for all sides outside of any idiots who just post garbage responses.

 

So, anyone who brings something to the table here needs to be ready for a response that's going to be different from an unchallenged response that may normally happen face to face.

 

I remember an instance in a different forum (martial arts) where this guy had all the answers in his own mind. After posting several days his ideas were taken apart left and right and they didn't hold up. So, he needed to go back and re-evaluate his stuff. In the real world if he went out with that stuff he would have a much harder lesson.

 

Well, #1, why would he need to develop a thicker skin, when he is not the one complaining about the way he is being treated? As far as getting to know our culture, which culture would that be? We have a lot of nationalities here. #2, just because someone is on an "anonymous" forum, doesn't give them the right to act like an ass. There was no challenging or taking apart of ideas. There was people disagreeing and taking out there disdain for "organized religion" on this guy. It's really quite sad.

 

If these kinds of posts are going to be the new guard of TTB, then things could get mighty bleak around here. People will stop posting things for fear the goon squad will come and verbally beat them because they don't agree.

Edited November 20, 2008 by lostmonk

[Baguakid]

Well, if it does sound like organized religion then it's perfectly fine to let him know that. What's the problem? What is being an ass about that?

 

Heck, he may thank us later for pointing it out to him.

 

I'll say this, I'm not going to be rude to someone unless they are overly rude to me but also, I'm not going to tip-toe around someone who should be an adult and can take criticism.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Baguakid

[goldisheavy]

Well, you really do have to remember that we are taking a part of a religion and calling it our own. It's like if we went to Christianity and said "Ok, we like this this and this. We are taking Matthew and John, you can have all the rest. But we are still calling ourselves Christians." And really, who knows what we may be missing because we automatically dismiss all the religious aspects out of hand. There may be some rituals that would help in cultivation that we will never know.

 

LOL!! What irony!!! Oh my. I guess you don't see it. Once upon the time there was this guy Jesus. He said, mostly I like Judaism, but I will stress this part, and this part we no longer need to do, blah blah.... Here's how it is, what I say is the truth...but on the other hand, I didn't come to change the law, only to clarify it. Blah blah blah... the end result of this impure mishmush is what we now call "Chrsitianity". So, don't you get it? All these things that you want to access and/or keep in their pristine forms are not pure, not pristine, have NEVER had a pure form, and are a result of chaotic mixing of everything. And culturally Christians have summarily borrowed pretty much all the Celtic festivals as well. Christianity is a mutt and you want to keep its purity? Taoism is a mutt, and so is Buddhism.

 

Open your eyes! You want to preserve purity that doesn't exist. Spiritual authenticity does not reside in some concrete well-defined form! This lesson is taught over and over by many masters, saints and bums, but some people just fail to learn it. You are one of them, lostmonk.

 

There was no challenging or taking apart of ideas.

 

That's a patently false assertion. I am going to call you a liar.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[HupGerk]

Heh...so you are basically saying that because lostmonk doesn't share your point of view, he is failing in his spiritual work...

 

...sorry but that is just rubbish and starting to sound like the thing you claim to be against.

 

HG

[fiveelementtao]

Well, you really do have to remember that we are taking a part of a religion and calling it our own. It's like if we went to Christianity and said "Ok, we like this this and this. We are taking Matthew and John, you can have all the rest. But we are still calling ourselves Christians." And really, who knows what we may be missing because we automatically dismiss all the religious aspects out of hand. There may be some rituals that would help in cultivation that we will never know.

 

And, he may have gone about it the wrong way, but he has a decent point regarding books. It's great we read the books, but still for the most part the meaning can be very hard to grasp. Otherwise we wouldn't come here and discuss various topics. I don't have the energy to search it down, but there is a whole lot of times that people let new seekers know that taoism is more to be experienced than read about. And when it comes to cultivation, I believe everyone here that ever mentioned learning qigong, taiji, etc from a dvd or book, was recommended to find a teacher, because even small mistakes in posture etc can really ruin energy flow and such.

 

Sometimes we need to just learn to ignore the parts of something we don't like and take the good out of it. Or if we are going to point out the negative, do it in a much more productive way. Some things, like conartists, deserve our ire, others do not.

 

There may be some rituals that would help in cultivation that we will never know....

Great! I have no problem with that. I'm not telling him not to share... Just don't demean others in the process..

Share whatever you want. I will be as grateful as anyone else.. His knowledge is not the issue.

who knows what we may be missing because we automatically dismiss all the religious aspects out of hand.

I'm not dismissing his religion at all. I'm dismissing his lack of respect and tact.

 

being a priest doesn't give him a special pass to be disrespectful and demeaning. A priest needs to be more respectful to people. His job is to help. So, as a priest, he needs to be more humble than the rest of us not less humble...

 

Look, let's be real here... If hari krishanas came on taobums saying their way was the best or the only way to God, we would all speak out against that. Just because the guy is taoist priest doesn't give him the right to disrespect anyone else. If you want respect you have to give it. Plus as I have already said. there are many sects of Tao and not all of them agree with each other. So, just because he is taoist priest doesn't mean he speaks for all Taoism. He can only speak for his sect. And even then, I don't even know who he is within his own sect. I don't even know which sect he is from.. I am sure he isn't from mine...

 

If he had said, "In my tradition we believe.." Or " I was taught..." there would be no problem. But, just because he is a priest, doesn't give him any special priviledges.

 

It's like if we went to Christianity and said "Ok, we like this this and this. We are taking Matthew and John, you can have all the rest. But we are still calling ourselves Christians."

 

I disagree. This happens all the time. There are so many different Christian sects that have basically done that exact thing. The same is true in taoism. As I have said, I have no disagreement with his info or knowledge, I am only responding to his arrogance... Priest or no priest, it ain't cool.

Edited November 20, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[goldisheavy]

Heh...so you are basically saying that because lostmonk doesn't share your point of view, he is failing in his spiritual work...

 

Ohhhh... I put a little more meat on those bones than that! Give me a break.

[ZenStatic]

LOL!! What irony!!! Oh my. I guess you don't see it. Once upon the time there was this guy Jesus. He said, mostly I like Judaism, but I will stress this part, and this part we no longer need to do, blah blah.... Here's how it is, what I say is the truth...but on the other hand, I didn't come to change the law, only to clarify it. Blah blah blah... the end result of this impure mishmush is what we now call "Chrsitianity". So, don't you get it? All these things that you want to access and/or keep in their pristine forms are not pure, not pristine, have NEVER had a pure form, and are a result of chaotic mixing of everything. And culturally Christians have summarily borrowed pretty much all the Celtic festivals as well. Christianity is a mutt and you want to keep its purity? Taoism is a mutt, and so is Buddhism.

 

Open your eyes! You want to preserve purity that doesn't exist. Spiritual authenticity does not reside in some concrete well-defined form! This lesson is taught over and over by many masters, saints and bums, but some people just fail to learn it. You are one of them, lostmonk.

That's a patently false assertion. I am going to call you a liar.

 

Who said anything about keeping purity? No matter if you care or not, it is a fact that the taoism you claim to follow, is but 1 part of what is out there. Your comprehension skills just leave me in awe. Your personal attacks, are just expected. Savages act savagely.

 

Great! I have no problem with that. I'm not telling him not to share... Just don't demean others in the process..

Share whatever you want. I will be as grateful as anyone else.. His knowledge is not the issue.

 

I'm not dismissing his religion at all. I'm dismissing his lack of respect and tact.

 

being a priest doesn't give him a special pass to be disrespectful and demeaning. A priest needs to be more respectful to people. His job is to help. So, as a priest, he needs to be more humble than the rest of us not less humble...

 

Look, let's be real here... If hari krishanas came on taobums saying their way was the best or the only way to God, we would all speak out against that. Just because the guy is taoist priest doesn't give him the right to disrespect anyone else. If you want respect you have to give it. Plus as I have already said. there are many sects of Tao and not all of them agree with each other. So, just because he is taoist priest doesn't mean he speaks for all Taoism. He can only speak for his sect. And even then, I don't even know who he is within his own sect. I don't even know which sect he is from.. I am sure he isn't from mine...

 

If he had said, "In my tradition we believe.." Or " I was taught..." there would be no problem. But, just because he is a priest, doesn't give him any special priviledges.

I disagree. This happens all the time. There are so many different Christian sects that have basically done that exact thing. The same is true in taoism. As I have said, I have no disagreement with his info or knowledge, I am only responding to his arrogance... Priest or no priest, it ain't cool.

 

Listen, I'm not the guys defender. I agree he came off as arrogant. Personally, I just glossed over it becuase I am somewhat used to having to deal with attitudes like that. My issue was with the fact that, rather than someone just mention that he was coming off that way, which he may not have realized since english is obviously not his first language, people flipped out and started being utter assholes. As far as I know, the goal is for people to learn from each other, not drive someone off right away because you don't like his style.

[goldisheavy]

Listen, I'm not the guys defender. I agree he came off as arrogant. Personally, I just glossed over it becuase I am somewhat used to having to deal with attitudes like that. My issue was with the fact that, rather than someone just mention that he was coming off that way, which he may not have realized since english is obviously not his first language, people flipped out and started being utter assholes.

 

See, my problem is not with the attitude. I don't mind a little bit of arrogance if there is some insight in the post. However, this guy showed arrogance without the corresponding insight. So my qualm was with his delusion and not with his attitude. I don't mind if the attitude is very pleasant or a little rough. There is plenty of room for the attitude to roam around, but I reserve this roaming around for people who bring something valuable to the table. On the other hand, I don't suffer fools no matter how golden or silky their attitude may be (unless they sincerely want to improve their condition, in that case there is no problem with ignorance).

 

So while some people here didn't like the arrogance, I didn't like the message. In other words, while many have disagreed with HOW he said things, I have disagreed with WHAT he said. Saying it nicer wouldn't have made me happier at all.

 

Secondly, I'm an ESL person myself. English is a second language to me. So I know a thing or two about the whole process of learning a new language. And believe you me, this guy was not making a linguistic mistake! I'll never ever believe that. I know what language mistakes are like. I've made many of them in my time (and probably still make them from time to time), but this guy ain't it. He's English is alright. He certainly knows what he is saying and how he comes across.

 

As far as I know, the goal is for people to learn from each other, not drive someone off right away because you don't like his style.

 

Hey, if he is the real deal, and wants to help people (as opposed to find recruits for his temple, and with his talk of opening the lions in order to bring more people to burn more incense, I do wonder), he won't mind genuine criticism and honest contradiction. I've debated many, MANY times with all kinds of people, and trust me, the real deal people do not back down so easily. They enter into debates and actually discuss matters. They are never afraid to directly address all the issues raised and feel quite comfortable with an occasional put down, as long as put downs is not all there is to read. Every one of those true sages understands the concept of "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". These people realize that they are lions teaching lions. They don't expect people to meekly and compliantly lick the honey of the razor blade they offer while saying "yes master... yes yes... oh master".

 

My opinion is that this guy has no real knowledge. If he disappears, it's like losing a pimple at the tip of your nose. No big loss. He talks about charms, but he says they have to be done in Chinese. It's obvious this guy doesn't know the principle behind the charms if he seriously believes that. On the other hand, if he knows better but deceives us knowingly, then he is an evil man who is much worse than I believe he is (and I believe he is semi-innocently ignorant).

Edited November 21, 2008 by goldisheavy

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited August 27, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Anabhogya-Carya]

'The evil of men is that they like to be teachers of others.'

 

Mencius

 

How wonderfully ironic.

[HupGerk]

Meat on bones,

 

I prefer veggies.

 

What are you so afraid and angry that you have to attack this person over and over?

 

Either he has no real knowledge or he maybe does but then he is evil??? Yah, right...next you'll be screaming for the comfy chair and soft cushions...

 

Regarding the post about the lions, the gentleman who asked the original question is a good friend of mine and I for one appreciate that the answer was posted on the forum and not just via PM since it allowed me to read it as well.

 

HG

[ZenStatic]

See, my problem is not with the attitude. I don't mind a little bit of arrogance if there is some insight in the post. However, this guy showed arrogance without the corresponding insight. So my qualm was with his delusion and not with his attitude. I don't mind if the attitude is very pleasant or a little rough. There is plenty of room for the attitude to roam around, but I reserve this roaming around for people who bring something valuable to the table. On the other hand, I don't suffer fools no matter how golden or silky their attitude may be (unless they sincerely want to improve their condition, in that case there is no problem with ignorance).

 

So while some people here didn't like the arrogance, I didn't like the message. In other words, while many have disagreed with HOW he said things, I have disagreed with WHAT he said. Saying it nicer wouldn't have made me happier at all.

 

Secondly, I'm an ESL person myself. English is a second language to me. So I know a thing or two about the whole process of learning a new language. And believe you me, this guy was not making a linguistic mistake! I'll never ever believe that. I know what language mistakes are like. I've made many of them in my time (and probably still make them from time to time), but this guy ain't it. He's English is alright. He certainly knows what he is saying and how he comes across.

Hey, if he is the real deal, and wants to help people (as opposed to find recruits for his temple, and with his talk of opening the lions in order to bring more people to burn more incense, I do wonder), he won't mind genuine criticism and honest contradiction. I've debated many, MANY times with all kinds of people, and trust me, the real deal people do not back down so easily. They enter into debates and actually discuss matters. They are never afraid to directly address all the issues raised and feel quite comfortable with an occasional put down, as long as put downs is not all there is to read. Every one of those true sages understands the concept of "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". These people realize that they are lions teaching lions. They don't expect people to meekly and compliantly lick the honey of the razor blade they offer while saying "yes master... yes yes... oh master".

 

My opinion is that this guy has no real knowledge. If he disappears, it's like losing a pimple at the tip of your nose. No big loss. He talks about charms, but he says they have to be done in Chinese. It's obvious this guy doesn't know the principle behind the charms if he seriously believes that. On the other hand, if he knows better but deceives us knowingly, then he is an evil man who is much worse than I believe he is (and I believe he is semi-innocently ignorant).

 

And the truth comes shining through. YOU don't like the knowledge he is trying to share, because YOU think that ritual, spells, etc is bullshit. YOU think you know more, so YOU are going to try and tear this man down for it.

 

All in all, thats pretty damn pathetic. You're not him, you haven't ever done any of the things he speaks of, and you have no real experiential idea as to anything he has tried to share. Instead, from a close minded position, you attack and go way out of bounds. Your acting worse than the strawman you just created out of your opinion of him.