Taoism, Taoist

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Aetherous]

How can you just open a bible and say you are a christian? You may claim yourself as a christian, but nobody in the religion claim you are part of them.

 

Perhaps those Christians got the bible all wrong, so the person who only reads the source material and doesn't listen to anyone else may gain more knowledge than everyone in the church. Maybe they're all mislead and focus on unimportant things which actually have nothing to do with what Christianity is supposed to be about.

 

If someone wants to be a religious Taoist, I personally don't see the point. So you want to wear robes, and perform rituals? What does that have to do with the Tao? To me, nothing...that stuff seems just like cultural add ons which aren't necessary.

 

Religious Taoism seems to contradict the Tao Te Ching. Just like modern day Christianity often seems to contradict the actual teachings in the bible.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Taiji Bum]

The Christian "formula" for baptism is usually water on the head with saying, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". Is there a similar formula in Taoism? Is the formula from one school recognized in another school?

[Aetherous]

Too many "if" and too many "perhaps" that is a form of false speech conducted in the code of ethics in taoism which leads to arguement and fight in real nature.

 

Well I could say it not using false speech, then: "I think those Christians got the bible all wrong, so the person who only reads the source material and doesn't listen to anyone else will gain more knowledge than everyone in the church. I think they're all mislead and focus on unimportant things which actually have nothing to do with what Christianity is supposed to be about."

 

I don't mean to start an argument. I'm simply sharing my point of view, that religious Taoism isn't real Taoism...to counter your point of view that only religious Taoism is real Taoism. No need to fight.

 

I am sure that a hot headed person will not be so happy by seeing you saying that chrisitianity in church is wrong and those who are reading the bible themselve are right. That is why i say learning under a master is important because we always bad-mouth on things and don't know that we are doing bad karma by saying bad things about other religions.

 

I don't cater to hot headed people's wishes for what they'd like to hear. If what I consider to be true makes them mad, that is their karma.

 

Bad mouthing bad or wrong things is good karma as long as it's done in a good way.

 

Tao Te Ching consist of two parts, first half is Tao Ching 道經 and the second half is call 德經 Te Ching. Which means first half is about tao, second is about ethics. If one person could say what you said, they are already throwing the books of 德經 te ching (bible of ethics) into the garbage instantly.

 

I don't believe so.

 

If you do think being a taoist is just to wear robe, that is what I am telling you that you are having the crust of the pizza and saying that those other pizza are not good. Have you tried it yet? If not, how can you judge what is going on with that? How can you say it is contradicting when you have not even tried it yet? I know that is all what western see when they look at the religion of Taoism, but it is not actually what the real Religion iis about. That is why I say, try before you complain.

 

I'd be willing to try. What I consider an actual Taoist is someone who is like the sage in the Tao Te Ching...not someone who is ordained, etc.

 

So I guess a good question to ask is: what's going on with joining a temple and being under a master. Is it necessary? Why? What is the goal of doing it?

 

Then once those are answered...if we don't need to do that to attain the goal, then those things are unnecessary.

 

In tao training, trying something and failing or proove it's wrong from the trial is part of learning. Just like how scientist test chemicals out and blow up their house. Before they blow out their house, they still keep their mouth shut and will not say that the combo is wrong.

 

But what if this scientist sees many other scientists test out the same chemicals and blow up their houses? They can predict it will happen to them as well.

 

But on a more practical level: you're right. I shouldn't put down your path without having any knowledge in it.

 

Is Taoism on LaoZi and Tao Te Ching? what about all of the scriptures from the taoism canon ? there are many more written by LaoZi, but I know they are not unleashed to the western culture yet. That is why westerners only know the crust and already complain that the pizza is not good, the crust is the best. Um? When are you going to put some butter and jam on your crust and try "bread-like-pizza"?

 

Some scriptures might be useful, some might not. This isn't false speech, it's just the truth. To be a true Christian, you don't have to accept everything the bible says. Although some think it's so. There is an essence to the religion, just like in Taoism. Living by that essence is what's important, not studying tons of stuff...in my opinion.

 

all the best with your training !

 

You too.

[Taiji Bum]

This reminds me of the "Who is a "true" Christian" argument. You got those who claim to be the rightful lineage holders like us Catholics, then those who broke away Protestents, those who started their chuches with the bible alone like some baptists and each pointing a finger at the other saying your not a true Christian.

 

I think what matters is results. Its the individual and not the style that succeeds because you get saints in every religion and in every religion you also get advanced mystics, but some however do produce more of them. I think the biggest producers are the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in the west and Zen, Taoism and the Yogic disciplines in the east. But I think it all comes down to emptiness meditation and living the monk lifestyle.

[fiveelementtao]

How can you just open a bible and say you are a christian? You may claim yourself as a christian, but nobody in the religion claim you are part of them.

 

I have to respond to this. There are MANY sects of Christianity. Some require baptism (initiation) some don't. Technically ANYONE who chooses to follow the teachings of Jesus is a christian.

 

There is a difference between religious taoism and practical taoism. Religious taoism refers to belonging to a group or sect. Practical taoism is about having practical energetic results.

 

Taoism has many different sects. Many religious taoist sects require initiation and have rules to follow. Taoism is also an energetic science. There are many different taoist energetic practices which accomplish different goals.

 

but nobody in the religion claim you are part of them.

 

Who cares what other people think about you? If your focus is to gain recognition from others, you have missed the whole point of Tao.

 

I just want people to feel free to explore taoism and taoist energetic practices without feeling "less than" because they haven't been initiated into a philosophical, intellectual or religious "club". Lao Tzu makes it pretty clear that the Tao is available to all.

[picnic]

Tao is independent of religion. Religion in any form is a restriction, an ordering. Which is why I will not say 'I am a Taoist', because as restrictive as labelling yourself is, you also have other peoples interpretation of that label.

 

"The Tao that can be named, is not the Tao" So anyone telling you how to approach it, how to see it, is at best saying how they try to see it, as if they knew, they would know it was not possible to say

[Baguakid]

yeah, I pretty much can't stand any religion any more. I think that's why many are attracted to taoist thought.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with picnic here. If a Taoist master wants me to practice some relgious activities I'll have to pass. I am so over religion I am beside myself .

 

Mak_Tin_Si, you need to understand for some going into another 'religious' organization will cause us to physically explode.

 

If a master wants to talk about principles, practice, etc then fine. Religion is out for me.

 

fiveelementtao, also good post.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Baguakid

[goldisheavy]

It is not the matter of membership or not, it is the matter of you accepting the truth and the lineage for what you want to learn.

 

Lineage is all about membership, indeed. It's not about the truth or understanding or anything like that. It's all about belonging and externalized authenticity.

 

You must enroll into a school to learn from the teachers, the teachers will teach and guide you to success.

 

You must do no such thing. Teachers can guide you to your doom as readily as they can guide you to your success. What we need are wise friends and not teachers.

 

If you just buy text books and read them yourself, maybe you will miss out alot.

 

Maybe. Or maybe you will learn things that teachers cannot or do not teach. Uncertainty works both ways. You are just as likely to do something unexpectedly well as you are to do something unexpectedly poorly. If you think the chance of doing poorly is much higher than a chance of doing exceptionally well, then you have a bias in your mind that you need to seriously question.

 

That include the experience that the teachers will teach,

 

Experience cannot be taught. Beliefs can be taught. Even intelligence and reason cannot be taught. Arguments can be taught, but not the underlying reason that understands and recognizes those arguments.

 

Therefore, I here suggest that anyone who want to learn Taoism shall always learn under a master to be on the right track and so that you could learn what taoism really is instead of the stuff that is on books in chapters or indigo which isn't really taoism practise. It is also a form of respect to learn under a master because the master teach and guide you to success, which build up a life long linkage for you and Taoism, so that you never give up in your trianing!

 

I suggest the opposite. I suggest the same thing Zhuangzi suggests, "Even a fool has his own mind for a teacher".

 

All things follow Dao, not just the Daoist masters. Rain falls according to Dao, and thoughts flow according to Dao. When a teacher arises that's in accord with Dao and when a student learns without a teacher, that's also in accord with Dao. Dao is not limited to only this or only that form.

 

A huge problem with the Daoist teachers, as well as with the Buddhist ones, is the secrecy and the "closed door" students. So they teach one thing in public, and an entirely different thing behind the closed doors to their chosen few. I fundamentally reject such practice, and I ask all the people of the West to reject it. We can take Daoist principles without the vile Chinese tribalism.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Tao is independent of religion. Religion in any form is a restriction, an ordering. Which is why I will not say 'I am a Taoist', because as restrictive as labelling yourself is, you also have other peoples interpretation of that label.

 

"The Tao that can be named, is not the Tao" So anyone telling you how to approach it, how to see it, is at best saying how they try to see it, as if they knew, they would know it was not possible to say

 

Well said. It is the first line the the text for a reason. To say the Tao is this or that restricts it, hence the use of interpretive metaphor and paradox throughout the Tao Te Ching. It is both nothing and something... and even that is a restriction!

[Cameron]

Interesting discussion. I have been pondering these things myself lately.

 

First, before getting lost in who is or isn't following the "Tao" correctly I think it would be interesting to see what our definition for Tao is.

 

For example, is Tao something different than the concept of God or Buddha? Is finding God or the Buddha different then finding Tao? Are there different versions of truth or only one?

 

It reminds me of a poem by a Zen Master,

 

Many paths lead from

The foot of the mountain

But at the peak

We all gaze at the

Single bright moon

 

I suppose the other view would be different paths don't lead to the same mountain peak. And maybe that is true. To me this is the main thing to clear up before discussing what is or isn't a true Taoist. What is true spirituality? Do different spiritual practices lead to the same destination like many rivers that return to the ocean or not?

 

And if we find Taoism is a distinct destination different from the destination of Buddhism,Christianity, Hinduism,Islam, Sufism,Advaita,Native Indian,Shinto,New Age etc what makes it different and special? And what makes the process of studying Taoism under an authentic Taoist Master different than studying Taoism from reading books and practicing without a teacher?

 

I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer. The person I have been studying with this last year claims to be adept at many different practices and lineages. Taoism, Tibetan Buddhism,Native American,Egyptian etc.

 

Obviously, there are different practices a Native American Shaman learns than a Tibetan Buddhist Master. But after all the forms and outer appearances are learned and forgotten is there a different truth informing the two?

Edited November 19, 2008 by Cameron

[adam mizner]

many paths there are, but they lead to many destinations. the destination of a cristian, a daoist and a buddhist are all different, even if they succeed to the hights of their path. that said truth is truth, relative and ultimate. some systems have more truth than others.

 

metta

adam

 

Interesting discussion. I have been pondering these things myself lately.

 

First, before getting lost in who is or isn't following the "Tao" correctly I think it would be interesting to see what our definition for Tao is.

 

For example, is Tao something different than the concept of God or Buddha? Is finding God or the Buddha different then finding Tao? Are there different versions of truth or only one?

 

It reminds me of a poem by a Zen Master,

 

Many paths lead from

The foot of the mountain

But at the peak

We all gaze at the

Single bright moon

 

I suppose the other view would be different paths don't lead to the same mountain peak. And maybe that is true. To me this is the main thing to clear up before discussing what is or isn't a true Taoist. What is true spirituality? Do different spiritual practices lead to the same destination like many rivers that return to the ocean or not?

 

And if we find Taoism is a distinct destination different from the destination of Buddhism,Christianity, Hinduism,Islam, Sufism,Advaita,Native Indian,Shinto,New Age etc what makes it different and special? And what makes the process of studying Taoism under an authentic Taoist Master different than studying Taoism from reading books and practicing without a teacher?

 

I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer. The person I have been studying with this last year claims to be adept at many different practices and lineages. Taoism, Tibetan Buddhism,Native American,Egyptian etc.

 

Obviously, there are different practices a Native American Shaman learns than a Tibetan Buddhist Master. But after all the forms and outer appearances are learned and forgotten is there a different truth informing the two?

[Cameron]

many paths there are, but they lead to many destinations. the destination of a cristian, a daoist and a buddhist are all different, even if they succeed to the hights of their path. that said truth is truth, relative and ultimate. some systems have more truth than others.

 

metta

adam

 

 

Nice. Along those lines, if we replace "Tao" with "Truth" what does it really mean to be a Taoist?

 

Don't get me wrong. I understand the intention of making a serious committment to a practice and a teacher. Just for truth's sake interested in seeing where someone who practices meditation and reads Taoist texts without the aid of a Master is less close to being a Taoist than someone who does study with a Master.

 

I fully support the idea of studying with good teachers. I guess if you replace Tao with truth and call a Taoist a "truthist" then the idea that someone can't get to truth without studying with a Taoist Master seems strange. As I am sure the universe is filled with truth beyond China.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Cameron

[Taiji Bum]

When my first taijiquan teacher introduced me to Taoism I had no idea it was a religion. He was teaching me primarily from the Tao Teh Ching and The Secret of the Golden Flower. It wasn't until we took a trip to Taiwan that I saw Taoist temples and priests. They reminded me of any other clergy... were the true church..... join us..... give us your money.

[Baguakid]

Let me add something I've experienced and no offence to Mak_Tin_Si or any other Chinese on this board but it seems to me that some of the Masters I've been around are usually full of themselves, love- I mean LOVE to talk in circles, and have no problem wasting people's time with their BS.

 

I mean, when you go to a Math class you get math, straight and clear, go to a cooking class and their it is right in front of you. Go to a Qigong class (I have yet to go to a Taoist Class) and it boggles the mind how someone can love to hear the sound of their voices.

 

I was in a meditation class and I asked the teacher a question. He talked for 25 minutes about the sun, the moon, the stars and countless things that had nothing to do with the question and when done he asked if I answered the question and I said not yet, then in one sentence he answered the question directly.

 

Now I love China, Chinese qigong, Chinese Martial arts, and Chinese culture. I've spent the last 25 years surrounding myself with it. Quit my job and moved to China for nearly 2 years and my wife is Chinese.

 

But I'll never understand the need to 'talk around' a subject and waste time. Especially when money is given for that time.

 

Just some thoughts, sorry for the rant.

[fiveelementtao]

I wonder if Lao Tzu was initiated... If not, then most taoists have no master!

[Pietro]

I wonder if Lao Tzu was initiated... If not, then most taoists have no master!

 

well,

according to what we seem to have discovered the tao te ching was not written all at once, but was generated through a process of continuous refinements of notes passed down. This seem to be the case from the fact that we found different versions of the tao te ching, in tombs from that period. For sure the order was different. And I am not sure if the content was always the same.

 

Then from a certain point onward all the TTJ found were of the same kind. It is as if an agreed version have been reached, and then all version from then onward were pretty much the same.

 

Now archeologists seem to see in this process of continuous refinement a proof that a text was not originally a work of a single great mind, but a work of a school, or of a series of masters, or maybe a tradition. This because when a work IS the single work of a single man, everybody takes great care not in changing a single word.

 

Does this make the Tao Te Jing become a less important work, in your eyes?

[ZenStatic]

Wow, I don't know where some of the people that I have seen posting lately came from, but some of you have major attitude issues. I personally don't agree with a dogmatic approach to Taoism either, but that is no reason for you people to be disrepectful assholes to someone that is trying to share what they know. Not too forget, that some of what you are posting is bullshit anyway.

 

Taoism is also an energetic science.

 

Since when? I know taijiquan, qigong, etc all are energy cultivation. But that is NOT taoism. Taoism is very much a philosophy, and/or lifestyle. I have never seen energy practices taught in the TTC, Zhuang Zhu<sp?>, etc. There are cultivation practices based on taoist principles, but that is again, not taoism istelf.

 

"The Tao that can be named, is not the Tao"So anyone telling you how to approach it, how to see it, is at best saying how they try to see it, as if they knew, they would know it was not possible to say

.

 

So then Lao Tzu knew nothing as well, right? Which leads to a paradox, since he is the one telling you that to begin with. Whether any of us like it or not, religious taoism made it possible for us westerners to become exposed to theses texts, because they kept them alive.

 

I was in a meditation class and I asked the teacher a question. He talked for 25 minutes about the sun, the moon, the stars and countless things that had nothing to do with the question and when done he asked if I answered the question and I said not yet, then in one sentence he answered the question directly.

 

1st off, that's not a chinese thing, but is done by teachers in most of the asian religions. The point is to get you thinking to where you find the answer yourself. But the majority of westerners, myself included, don't have the patience to learn things for ourselves most times. We want the answer when we want it, which is 5 minutes ago.

 

My entire point here is that there are a few people that need to calm down. It's one thing to disagree with someone, and entirely another to treat them like trash. Just because you say "I don't mean to be offensive" or some such, doesn't give you the right to do just that.

[Baguakid]

lostmonk,

 

You are right it's not totally a Chinese thing but mostly. I can say I don't get this from most of my teachers. My Zhan Zhuang, my Bagua Zhang, my Neigong teacher all talked straight with me (who are all Chinese btw). And no, the answer had nothing to do with what he was talking about (the meditation teacher). I just think some ppl love to "try" to talk like a Philosopher. Like I said, it was a rant.

 

And no, I"m not a stupid westerner who thinks everything should be given to me 5 minutes ago. This has been building up for over 20 years of patiently looking for answers.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Baguakid

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Wow, I don't know where some of the people that I have seen posting lately came from, but some of you have major attitude issues. I personally don't agree with a dogmatic approach to Taoism either, but that is no reason for you people to be disrepectful assholes to someone that is trying to share what they know. Not too forget, that some of what you are posting is bullshit anyway.

 

 

So then Lao Tzu knew nothing as well, right? Which leads to a paradox, since he is the one telling you that to begin with.

 

No need to get attitudinal............

 

Paradox is the essence of the Tao Te Ching.

[fiveelementtao]

Wow, I don't know where some of the people that I have seen posting lately came from, but some of you have major attitude issues. I personally don't agree with a dogmatic approach to Taoism either, but that is no reason for you people to be disrepectful assholes to someone that is trying to share what they know. Not too forget, that some of what you are posting is bullshit anyway.

Since when? I know taijiquan, qigong, etc all are energy cultivation. But that is NOT taoism. Taoism is very much a philosophy, and/or lifestyle. I have never seen energy practices taught in the TTC, Zhuang Zhu<sp?>, etc. There are cultivation practices based on taoist principles, but that is again, not taoism istelf.

 

.

 

So then Lao Tzu knew nothing as well, right? Which leads to a paradox, since he is the one telling you that to begin with. Whether any of us like it or not, religious taoism made it possible for us westerners to become exposed to theses texts, because they kept them alive.

1st off, that's not a chinese thing, but is done by teachers in most of the asian religions. The point is to get you thinking to where you find the answer yourself. But the majority of westerners, myself included, don't have the patience to learn things for ourselves most times. We want the answer when we want it, which is 5 minutes ago.

 

My entire point here is that there are a few people that need to calm down. It's one thing to disagree with someone, and entirely another to treat them like trash. Just because you say "I don't mean to be offensive" or some such, doesn't give you the right to do just that.

Nobody is disagreeing with his experiences or info. Most of what he says is really cool and interesting, it's only his attitude of "I am a REAL taoist and you are not." that we are reacting to. There is a superiority and an attitude of comparison. And it sounds just like born again christians.

If he were only here to share, we would love it. But when he starts telling everyone that they are not real taoists and he is, he comes off very egotistical.

And by the way, Lao tzu rips into religious know-it-alls pretty good. He tore Confucius a new Ahole for the same type of attitude this guy gives. Read his posts again you will find the quotes... "A real taoist has a master, a real taoist is initiated. you can't get tao from books, blah, blah, blah. I never got my Tao from books, I got mine from real masters, I know for a fact this guy does not know some of the stuff I know. But I certainly wouldn't say he's not a taoist. Take that ego crap out of his posts and we would all love what he says and ask him more.

[HupGerk]

 

 

[ZenStatic]

Nobody is disagreeing with his experiences or info. Most of what he says is really cool and interesting, it's only his attitude of "I am a REAL taoist and you are not." that we are reacting to. There is a superiority and an attitude of comparison. And it sounds just like born again christians.

If he were only here to share, we would love it. But when he starts telling everyone that they are not real taoists and he is, he comes off very egotistical.

And by the way, Lao tzu rips into religious know-it-alls pretty good. He tore Confucius a new Ahole for the same type of attitude this guy gives. Read his posts again you will find the quotes... "A real taoist has a master, a real taoist is initiated. you can't get tao from books, blah, blah, blah. I never got my Tao from books, I got mine from real masters, I know for a fact this guy does not know some of the stuff I know. But I certainly wouldn't say he's not a taoist. Take that ego crap out of his posts and we would all love what he says and ask him more.

 

Well, you really do have to remember that we are taking a part of a religion and calling it our own. It's like if we went to Christianity and said "Ok, we like this this and this. We are taking Matthew and John, you can have all the rest. But we are still calling ourselves Christians." And really, who knows what we may be missing because we automatically dismiss all the religious aspects out of hand. There may be some rituals that would help in cultivation that we will never know.

 

And, he may have gone about it the wrong way, but he has a decent point regarding books. It's great we read the books, but still for the most part the meaning can be very hard to grasp. Otherwise we wouldn't come here and discuss various topics. I don't have the energy to search it down, but there is a whole lot of times that people let new seekers know that taoism is more to be experienced than read about. And when it comes to cultivation, I believe everyone here that ever mentioned learning qigong, taiji, etc from a dvd or book, was recommended to find a teacher, because even small mistakes in posture etc can really ruin energy flow and such.

 

Sometimes we need to just learn to ignore the parts of something we don't like and take the good out of it. Or if we are going to point out the negative, do it in a much more productive way. Some things, like conartists, deserve our ire, others do not.

[Baguakid]

lostmonk,

 

Or He needs to try to understand our culture and develop a 'thicker skin'. This is a forum which things can be debated and discussed openly which is different than in person so ppl can respond in a more brash way. I'm not saying it's the best but it does have some advantages. It means the response will be looked at from all sides and be taken apart left and right. If it holds up, great. If not, there's a problem. Outside of a forum ppl's ideas are not usually challanged in this way. I think it's good for all sides outside of any idiots who just post garbage responses.

 

So, anyone who brings something to the table here needs to be ready for a response that's going to be different from an unchallenged response that may normally happen face to face.

 

I remember an instance in a different forum (martial arts) where this guy had all the answers in his own mind. After posting several days his ideas were taken apart left and right and they didn't hold up. So, he needed to go back and re-evaluate his stuff. In the real world if he went out with that stuff he would have a much harder lesson.