The 8 Mantras in Taoism

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Taiji Bum]

My first taijiquan teacher had me following the lunar dietary rules. Thanks for the reminder.

[ZenStatic]

My first taijiquan teacher had me following the lunar dietary rules. Thanks for the reminder.

 

That was the question that came to mind for me. I'm sure it's not really the first and 15th, is there a way to find a calendar to get the actual right dates for this? I know the western calendar is crap and has all kinds of things screwy.

[Taiji Bum]

That was the question that came to mind for me. I'm sure it's not really the first and 15th, is there a way to find a calendar to get the actual right dates for this? I know the western calendar is crap and has all kinds of things screwy.

I never owned a Chinese lunar calendar but I used a Jewish one or a normal western one with the lunar phases to know when the new and full moons were. On the Jewish one its the 1st and 15th also.

[zanshin]

It's the new and full moon right? I've been trying to eat more vegetarian meals anyway, I'll at least observe these two days of the month (and now that I said it will have to do lest be false speech).

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

4. no sexual misconduct

 

How gets to define that? Chinese? Americans? Confucian lifestyle?

 

And I don't think a system of rigid commandments fits into to the philosophy of the Tao Te Ching.

 

 

 

tips. just like no killing means even ants, mosquitos, bugs, live crab or seafood when cooking etc,. Becareful not to break this rule!!

 

 

 

But you can pay others to kill your meat and fish?

[picnic]

I am 100% veggie, but would not like to think that a poor hungry person did bad by eating meat. Or that a lion is not Tao. These rules are restrictive.

 

It works better in reverse, that on seeing a higher truth, you withdraw from meat and killing. Not that on avoiding meat you will see a higher truth. On seeing a higher truth you treat all with love. If you order a child to love, they may question and rebel, if you love them, they will love you.

[Pietro]

It works better in reverse, that on seeing a higher truth, you withdraw from meat and killing. Not that on avoiding meat you will see a higher truth. [...]. If you order a child to love, they may question and rebel,...

 

*bows*

and this is indeed the taoist way, as I have learned it from my master and teachers.

[Pietro]

How gets to define that? Chinese? Americans? Confucian lifestyle?

I can answer from the point of view of what was taught to us.

 

But will be looking forward to hear Mak answer.

Mostly to hear what would be similar, and what would be different.

 

The taoist way of no sexual misconduct, as was teached to us (but we were told that this was quite universal) was:

1) no male to male sex (especially no anal sex among males)

2) no human to animals (no exceptions for squirrels)

3) no human to dead people

4) no adult with kids.

 

Nothing was said about people marriage and fidelity and virginity (among adults). In all those cases the process of the questions that I presented in the other thread was going to be used among with a few other general guidelines (nothing that would create karma to you or society or [there was something else here, I'll need to ask])

 

Pornography was not considered under this section as it was not considered sex, but representation of sex. As you would not write under a "no killing" law, a book that forbids or limits violent books.

 

I find very interesting that in Mak's Taoist group there seem to be a rule about no jelousy.

Because we were given a long explanation about why and how to dissolve jelousy. But no rules. Maybe not to offend the western way of life.

 

All in all I am very curious to read Mak answer to this question.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I can answer from the point of view of what was taught to us.

 

But will be looking forward to hear Mak answer.

Mostly to hear what would be similar, and what would be different.

 

The taoist way of no sexual misconduct, as was teached to us (but we were told that this was quite universal) was:

1) no male to male sex (especially no anal sex among males)

2) no human to animals (no exceptions for squirrels)

3) no human to dead people

4) no adult with kids.

 

Nothing was said about people marriage and fidelity and virginity (among adults). In all those cases the process of the questions that I presented in the other thread was going to be used among with a few other general guidelines (nothing that would create karma to you or society or [there was something else here, I'll need to ask])

 

 

Pornography was not considered under this section as it was not considered sex, but representation of sex. As you would not write under a "no killing" law, a book that forbids or limits violent books.

 

I find very interesting that in Mak's Taoist group there seem to be a rule about no jelousy.

Because we were given a long explanation about why and how to dissolve jelousy. But no rules. Maybe not to offend the western way of life.

 

All in all I am very curious to read Mak answer to this question.

 

I know it was taught to you... who taught it? surely it was not the Tao Te Ching.

[goldisheavy]

As asked from a friend here, I am posting this for all to read.

 

I get it. You are doing us a favor. You are posting this almost against your wishes. Nice (not so) subtle way to put us all down before you begin.

 

For westerners, when you first meet the 8 basic spells in taoism, is it not something that you shall practise as your beginning practise of taoism. The reason is that you do not know the chinese words yet and they need alot of other practise to build the power that atttune yourself to run the mantra's energy. Without a master, there is no way you know how the real mantra works because you have not been attuned.

 

Wow, just wow. Does anyone understand the subtle significance of this? What this guy is doing is he's degrading your symbolism (English language) in favor of a foreign one (Chinese language). He's basically spitting in your soul. But it's worse than that. What he says is that English language has no power, and that only Chinese has power. Never mind the fact that not a single Chinese Shaman cast a single spell in the foreign language from another continent in order to gain power! Ahaha... So all of them did it in their own language and they did just fine.

 

Also look what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. When Buddhism came to Tibet, ALL OF IT was translated into Tibetan. For example in Dzogchen, a lot of highly technical Tibetan vocabulary appeared for all the relevant phenomena of consciousness. Not a single Sanskrit word remained in wide use. But the Tibetans will not do the same for English. They come over here and you read their books and they are just peppered with Tibetan. Do you realize that Tibetans can't even pronounce the Sanskrit mantras correctly? "Peme" LOL!!! What PEME?? It's PADME. But none of this has impeded the spiritual development of Tibetans! They did just fine in their own language and with the incorrect pronunciation of the Sanskrit mantras, which surely should have destroyed the power of the mantra!

 

The same happens in many spiritual traditions. The West is being spiritually raped in this way.

 

It's one thing to bring wisdom and to enlighten our understanding of our own symbols. But it's an entirely another thing to come here and insinuate that our symbols have no power, and that the power comes from this tightly guarded secret source, from far away. One way to do this kind of power play is to denigrate the native language.

 

Let's put an end to this once and for all. Let everyone become awake to the full power of our internal meaning. The English language is not deficient in any way. It's exactly, precisely every bit as powerful and as magical as Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek, Latin (see how many times we have been raped in the past?). Restore the power back to your own mind. Restore the power back to your own symbols.

 

Look at me. I came from another country too. I learned English as a second language. I don't go around putting down English. When I talk to English people I explain to them that English has limitless power, magic and potential. I don't say, hey, your language is for n00bs, learn my language to be a master.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I get it. You are doing us a favor. You are posting this almost against your wishes. Nice (not so) subtle way to put us all down before you begin.

Wow, just wow. Does anyone understand the subtle significance of this? What this guy is doing is he's degrading your symbolism (English language) in favor of a foreign one (Chinese language). He's basically spitting in your soul. But it's worse than that. What he says is that English language has no power, and that only Chinese has power. Never mind the fact that not a single Chinese Shaman cast a single spell in the foreign language from another continent in order to gain power! Ahaha... So all of them did it in their own language and they did just fine.

 

Also look what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. When Buddhism came to Tibet, ALL OF IT was translated into Tibetan. For example in Dzogchen, a lot of highly technical Tibetan vocabulary appeared for all the relevant phenomena of consciousness. Not a single Sanskrit word remained in wide use. But the Tibetans will not do the same for English. They come over here and you read their books and they are just peppered with Tibetan. Do you realize that Tibetans can't even pronounce the Sanskrit mantras correctly? "Peme" LOL!!! What PEME?? It's PADME. But none of this has impeded the spiritual development of Tibetans! They did just fine in their own language and with the incorrect pronunciation of the Sanskrit mantras, which surely should have destroyed the power of the mantra!

 

The same happens in many spiritual traditions. The West is being spiritually raped in this way.

 

It's one thing to bring wisdom and to enlighten our understanding of our own symbols. But it's an entirely another thing to come here and insinuate that our symbols have no power, and that the power comes from this tightly guarded secret source, from far away. One way to do this kind of power play is to denigrate the native language.

 

Let's put an end to this once and for all. Let everyone become awake to the full power of our internal meaning. The English language is not deficient in any way. It's exactly, precisely every bit as powerful and as magical as Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek, Latin (see how many times we have been raped in the past?). Restore the power back to your own mind. Restore the power back to your own symbols.

 

Look at me. I came from another country too. I learned English as a second language. I don't go around putting down English. When I talk to English people I explain to them that English has limitless power, magic and potential. I don't say, hey, your language is for n00bs, learn my language to be a master.

 

I applaud you.

[adam mizner]

well said, well said.

 

metta

adam

 

Also look what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. When Buddhism came to Tibet, ALL OF IT was translated into Tibetan. For example in Dzogchen, a lot of highly technical Tibetan vocabulary appeared for all the relevant phenomena of consciousness. Not a single Sanskrit word remained in wide use. But the Tibetans will not do the same for English. They come over here and you read their books and they are just peppered with Tibetan. Do you realize that Tibetans can't even pronounce the Sanskrit mantras correctly? "Peme" LOL!!! What PEME?? It's PADME. But none of this has impeded the spiritual development of Tibetans! They did just fine in their own language and with the incorrect pronunciation of the Sanskrit mantras, which surely should have destroyed the power of the mantra!

 

The same happens in many spiritual traditions. The West is being spiritually raped in this way.

 

It's one thing to bring wisdom and to enlighten our understanding of our own symbols. But it's an entirely another thing to come here and insinuate that our symbols have no power, and that the power comes from this tightly guarded secret source, from far away. One way to do this kind of power play is to denigrate the native language.

 

Let's put an end to this once and for all. Let everyone become awake to the full power of our internal meaning. The English language is not deficient in any way. It's exactly, precisely every bit as powerful and as magical as Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek, Latin (see how many times we have been raped in the past?). Restore the power back to your own mind. Restore the power back to your own symbols.

 

Look at me. I came from another country too. I learned English as a second language. I don't go around putting down English. When I talk to English people I explain to them that English has limitless power, magic and potential. I don't say, hey, your language is for n00bs, learn my language to be a master.

[ZenStatic]

I get it. You are doing us a favor. You are posting this almost against your wishes. Nice (not so) subtle way to put us all down before you begin.

 

He said someone asked him to post it. Nowhere does he come even close to putting everyone down, at all. That's just your own bullshit clouding your vision.

 

Wow, just wow. Does anyone understand the subtle significance of this? What this guy is doing is he's degrading your symbolism (English language) in favor of a foreign one (Chinese language). He's basically spitting in your soul. But it's worse than that. What he says is that English language has no power, and that only Chinese has power. Never mind the fact that not a single Chinese Shaman cast a single spell in the foreign language from another continent in order to gain power! Ahaha... So all of them did it in their own language and they did just fine.

 

Also look what happened with Tibetan Buddhism. When Buddhism came to Tibet, ALL OF IT was translated into Tibetan. For example in Dzogchen, a lot of highly technical Tibetan vocabulary appeared for all the relevant phenomena of consciousness. Not a single Sanskrit word remained in wide use. But the Tibetans will not do the same for English. They come over here and you read their books and they are just peppered with Tibetan. Do you realize that Tibetans can't even pronounce the Sanskrit mantras correctly? "Peme" LOL!!! What PEME?? It's PADME. But none of this has impeded the spiritual development of Tibetans! They did just fine in their own language and with the incorrect pronunciation of the Sanskrit mantras, which surely should have destroyed the power of the mantra!

 

The same happens in many spiritual traditions. The West is being spiritually raped in this way.

 

It's one thing to bring wisdom and to enlighten our understanding of our own symbols. But it's an entirely another thing to come here and insinuate that our symbols have no power, and that the power comes from this tightly guarded secret source, from far away. One way to do this kind of power play is to denigrate the native language.

 

Let's put an end to this once and for all. Let everyone become awake to the full power of our internal meaning. The English language is not deficient in any way. It's exactly, precisely every bit as powerful and as magical as Chinese, Tibetan, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Egyptian, Greek, Latin (see how many times we have been raped in the past?). Restore the power back to your own mind. Restore the power back to your own symbols.

 

Look at me. I came from another country too. I learned English as a second language. I don't go around putting down English. When I talk to English people I explain to them that English has limitless power, magic and potential. I don't say, hey, your language is for n00bs, learn my language to be a master.

 

You really can't see the difference between English and other languages? Anytime you try to take something out of its original language, there is a huge potential for lots to get lost. Look at all the issues Christianity and Islam have, all because of different translations of their book. And then look at how the jews solve the problem. They require all young men that wish to delve deeper into judaism to learn hebrew. Period. That way there can be no issue at all with what is meant. Even the TTC. Go compare different translations. You get a much different idea from many of them with the way they put things.

 

And then, you compare taoist practices to buddhist practices? In this case they surely are very different. Perhaps I am wrong, but taoist spells would involve qi gathering, redirecting, usage etc. Work with a specific, tangible, energy. Buddhist mantras, for the most part, are for the speaker to focus. And in some cases are a prayer. Different on so many levels.

 

Okay. We get it. You resent this guy because he is part of an "organized religion." If you feel the need to disrespect everything he has to say in every post, why are you even here on a forum that takes pride in its diversity? If he becomes another "join me or the world will end" kind of guy, then it will be dealt with. But while he is sharing knowledge from the way he was taught and trained, why don't you just leave your own issues outside.

[goldisheavy]

You really can't see the difference between English and other languages? Anytime you try to take something out of its original language, there is a huge potential for lots to get lost.

 

I agree that translation is always problematic. But non-translation is even worse! When you keep entire concepts in the foreign language, and yet you have to relate those concepts to the ones expressed in your own language, this kind of non-translation is a linguistic transplant that inherits all the same difficulties that appear during translation efforts, and for all the same reasons.

 

Look at all the issues Christianity and Islam have, all because of different translations of their book. And then look at how the jews solve the problem. They require all young men that wish to delve deeper into judaism to learn hebrew. Period. That way there can be no issue at all with what is meant. Even the TTC. Go compare different translations. You get a much different idea from many of them with the way they put things.

 

You have to recognize that spiritual masters have appeared at all times in all kinds of conditions. Some of them had a lineage, and some had no lineage. Some were popular and some were not. Some were executed. Some were expelled from the monasteries. You name it, and it happened. Imagine it, and it was so in the past somewhere. But one thing is certain. The language is alive. The language is always in flux. The languages are always copulating with each other. Random linguistic mutations often become the norm after a while. Mispronunciations become standard pronunciation. This truth simply reflects the emptiness of language.

 

Now, it's funny you mention Judaism. In Kabbalah you will learn that language, even Hebrew, is completely insufficient to learn the spiritual truth. Have you read anything by Rebbi Laitman on the topic of language? So, learning Hebrew will not necessarily help. Everything depends on your ability to understand your own internal symbolism. If I recall correctly, Rabbi Laitman said that trying to describe the spiritual truth with language is like trying to describe the structure of branches and the tree trunk by referring only to the leaves. This problem is the same in all languages, including Hebrew. I guess I won't even mention the fact that all the original writings were made in Aramaic, which is a dead language. So Hebrew is completely insufficient today for the "purity" sake, you really need to learn Aramaic. But it's a dead language. Just how accurate would your learning be when you learn something that's no longer in use? How can you be sure you're not learning a fantasy?

 

And then an obvious series of questions arises:

 

If Hebrew is the best language for learning a spiritual path, why bother with Chinese?

 

If Chinese is the best, why bother with Hebrew?

 

If they are each best for their respective path, certainly there must be a perfectly valid and good path that involves the use of the English language. Wouldn't then that path be most suited to us, who already speak English?

 

That's just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more questions to ask. Only the intellectually lazy won't perceive all the many questions that arise in this situation.

 

And then, you compare taoist practices to buddhist practices? In this case they surely are very different.

 

Different, yes, of course. Even Sakya Buddhist sect and Nyigma Buddhist sect are different, but so what? If you look at it that way, everything is so different that we need to stop comparing and stop talking. Go lay in a coffin and wait to die. Are they very very different? Heck no! They are not very very different. They are just different but not too very different, no sir.

 

Perhaps I am wrong, but taoist spells would involve qi gathering, redirecting, usage etc. Work with a specific, tangible, energy. Buddhist mantras, for the most part, are for the speaker to focus. And in some cases are a prayer. Different on so many levels.

 

In Tantric Buddhism one works with the energies as well. It's called "prana" or winds, but it's not that much different from qi. You listen to how the prana is described and you'll be damned if you don't see similarities.

 

Working with the energies at a concrete level of manifestation is something to be criticized though, but that's a different topic.

 

Okay. We get it. You resent this guy because he is part of an "organized religion."

 

True.

 

If you feel the need to disrespect everything he has to say in every post, why are you even here on a forum that takes pride in its diversity?

 

Due to the forum's diversity, there will be people here I do enjoy reading. But more importantly, I do not have prejudice against that guy. We can easily become the best of friends. This will happen when he starts sharing from the heart and spares us the traditional dogma that is not only irrelevant in a spiritual path, but that is actually an obscuration that has to be actively purified away.

 

If he becomes another "join me or the world will end" kind of guy, then it will be dealt with. But while he is sharing knowledge from the way he was taught and trained, why don't you just leave your own issues outside.

 

Nothing is beyond reproach. When I say what I say, I am also "just sharing". Had I said it even slightly differently, the meaning wouldn't be exactly the same. Both feelings and reason have a place. When I say something, I don't expect a universal acceptance. I don't expect respect. I do expect someone to read what I say with an open mind and then if the criticisms appear, I sure would like to hear them. So I don't have any internal issues posting the way I do. In other words, I am congruent, but I do thank you for your help in keeping me on my toes. Guys like you won't let me stray too far from the truth. And I am to that "taoist master" what you are to me. I perform the same function for him as you for me.

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[ZenStatic]

Due to the forum's diversity, there will be people here I do enjoy reading. But more importantly, I do not have prejudice against that guy. We can easily become the best of friends. This will happen when he starts sharing from the heart and spares us the traditional dogma that is not only irrelevant in a spiritual path, but that is actually an obscuration that has to be actively purified away.

Nothing is beyond reproach. When I say what I say, I am also "just sharing". Had I said it even slightly differently, the meaning wouldn't be exactly the same. Both feelings and reason have a place. When I say something, I don't expect a universal acceptance. I don't expect respect. I do expect someone to read what I say with an open mind and then if the criticisms appear, I sure would like to hear them. So I don't have any internal issues posting the way I do. In other words, I am congruent, but I do thank you for your help in keeping me on my toes. Guys like you won't let me stray too far from the truth. And I am to that "taoist master" what you are to me. I perform the same function for him as you for me.

 

How do you know he is not sharing form the heart? People raised in religious taoism aren't honest then I guess you are saying? Or what exactly is your point?

 

Plain and simple, there is no need to be an asshole, especially to someone new to the forums. There is a such thing called constructive criticism.

[goldisheavy]

How do you know he is not sharing form the heart? People raised in religious taoism aren't honest then I guess you are saying? Or what exactly is your point?

 

It's possible to be honest and yet not speak from the heart. This happens when you give something factually correct, but something that doesn't connect to a deep purpose or deep longing or the true intention of the heart.

 

Plain and simple, there is no need to be an asshole, especially to someone new to the forums. There is a such thing called constructive criticism.

 

I'm not an asshole. And fuck you.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Don't we all have our panties in a bunch.

[ZenStatic]

It's possible to be honest and yet not speak from the heart. This happens when you give something factually correct, but something that doesn't connect to a deep purpose or deep longing or the true intention of the heart.

 

So now you have some kind of mystical power to know when people are or are not speaking from the heart? You're more full of shit than you can ever make this guy look.

[goldisheavy]

So now you have some kind of mystical power to know when people are or are not speaking from the heart?

 

Sure! Don't you? If you don't, you are fucked for life.

[Pietro]

Sure! Don't you? If you don't, you are fucked for life.

That's a possibility.

 

Another possibility is that you think you can discern if what other people say is coming from their heart,

and you don't get it always right.

 

Now, if you consider that when many people think that you have been an... sorry, I mean when you have not acted out of your higher self, they might be right, this should at least give you a resonable doubt that you might give other people a bigger chance.

 

That's at least another possibility.

[goldisheavy]

That's a possibility.

 

Another possibility is that you think you can discern if what other people say is coming from their heart,

and you don't get it always right.

 

Now, if you consider that when many people think that you have been an... sorry, I mean when you have not acted out of your higher self, they might be right, this should at least give you a resonable doubt that you might give other people a bigger chance.

 

That's at least another possibility.

 

I agree. I always take into account what everyone says. However I've been a very analytical and contemplative person for a long time now, and my belief structure is vastly different from that of other people, but at the same time, I used to share my beliefs with those of other people. So, I'm in a place where I have steadily and consciously, over a long period of time, moved away from mainstream beliefs, but at the same time, I know what those beliefs are, because I used to espouse them myself. So it shouldn't take a genius to understand what my general attitude is going to be toward the mainstream beliefs. Obviously if in my contemplation I've consistently been finding reasons to question and to weaken my beliefs, and I've been thinking that most of my beliefs have been a hindrance to me, and then I see other people pronounce the same exact beliefs that I have found to be a huge hindrance, am I going to be cordial and receptive? Not at all. I think there is no value in superficial politeness. One should speak from the bottom of one's heart all the time, even under the threat of death. It may be hard to live up to that ideal all the time, but that's my aim, and if I fail to speak honestly, it's because of some weakness or some interfering belief that I have, etc., and I am in the process of eliminating those.

 

Zhuangzi said the same thing too about speaking what you truly feel (from the bottom of the heart). He said that not to speak from the bottom of your heart is a (spiritual) crime of hiding from heaven.

Edited November 21, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Pietro]

I agree. I always take into account what everyone says. However I've been a very analytical and contemplative person for a long time now, and my belief structure is vastly different from that of other people, but at the same time, I used to share my beliefs with those of other people. So, I'm in a place where I have steadily and consciously, over a long period of time, moved away from mainstream beliefs, but at the same time, I know what those beliefs are, because I used to espouse them myself. So it shouldn't take a genius to understand what my general attitude is going to be toward the mainstream beliefs. Obviously if in my contemplation I've consistently been finding reasons to question and to weaken my beliefs, and I've been thinking that most of my beliefs have been a hindrance to me, and then I see other people pronounce the same exact beliefs that I have found to be a huge hindrance, am I going to be cordial and receptive? Not at all. I think there is no value in superficial politeness. One should speak from the bottom of one's heart all the time, even under the threat of death.

 

Of one's own death? Maybe.

But I fear that your action might cause this person to stop sharing with this community. And I would love to keep on hearing what he has to say. Even if I already have a teacher, even if there is not one possibility in the world that I could study with him. I just find his lessons fascinating, as they help me understand better about the other lessons I am receiving.

And I think other people are in a similar situation.

 

So I would like to ask you to just phrase your comments in a way that does not feel to harsh. And if this is not possible that you refrain from adding a particular comment.

 

It may be hard to live up to that ideal all the time, but that's my aim, and if I fail to speak honestly, it's because of some weakness or some interfering belief that I have, etc., and I am in the process of eliminating those.

 

Zhuangzi said the same thing too about speaking what you truly feel (from the bottom of the heart). He said that not to speak from the bottom of your heart is a (spiritual) crime of hiding from heaven.

 

Zhuang zi speaks about expressing emotions.

Not about lieing.

 

And he surely does not say that you should always say what your heart wants to.

 

And you know why? Because in the warring state period (when ZZ was written) you would not be alive for long if you were not able to keep some of your comments for yourself.

 

-Lord: this guy has a weird face, he looks like a thief. Torture him and his kids until he says what he has stolen.

-Soldier: we did so, but they all died under torture before speaking.

-Lord: too bad, he should have confessed immediately. By the way, my dear Taoist, what do you think of my way of governing

-Taoist: You are so good my lord. Now can I go fishing?

 

You see what I mean?

This is what was the situation in China for many many years.

It is not a case that ZZ does not say that you need to speak your heart. Just avoid expressing fake emotions. It is different.

 

Daoists were in general rarely the religious or philosophical group in power. Often Confucianists and Buddists where the personal advisors of the lords. We understand the art of being diplomatic. Ok?

[goldisheavy]

Of one's own death? Maybe.

But I fear that your action might cause this person to stop sharing with this community.

 

MTS is still "sharing", and I am glad that he is.

 

However, he's not really sharing much or at all, because he keeps 90% of it confidential. Mostly it's like throwing out some bait to see if anyone bites and wants to sign up or become his personal student or something like that. Then out of 100 students he's going to teach 1 or 2 people the real stuff. That's the "closed door" tradition that I loathe so much. So he's not sharing in the Western sense of the word "sharing", which is definitely a sense I strongly prefer and I think for a good reason too.

 

So we're essentially getting little brochures of his sect. If you enjoy getting them, that's fine, and I am not against it too much as long as he doesn't say something that's too awfully wrong, at which point I will comment once again if I am still reading this forum.

 

And he surely does not say that you should always say what your heart wants to.

 

He kind of does. Maybe not in exactly those words, but there are plenty of examples to see what he means.

 

And you know why? Because in the warring state period (when ZZ was written) you would not be alive for long if you were not able to keep some of your comments for yourself.

 

-Lord: this guy has a weird face, he looks like a thief. Torture him and his kids until he says what he has stolen.

-Soldier: we did so, but they all died under torture before speaking.

-Lord: too bad, he should have confessed immediately. By the way, my dear Taoist, what do you think of my way of governing

-Taoist: You are so good my lord. Now can I go fishing?

 

You see what I mean?

 

What a cool example! And yes, I see what you mean. And you know what? I think you are wrong. Real masters, the immortals, were not afraid of any silly emperor and didn't care if they died or lived. In fact, if they were not 100% happy, they had a habit of dropping their body right on the spot.

 

The immortals-to-be, the master-in-training were driven into the mountains because of this. So a guy like Zhuangzi might be somewhat like what you describe, but he made sure to remove himself as far as possible from politics. Since sages like Zhuangzi were seen as non-participants and non-contenders, they could speak more honestly and get away with it, because they didn't agitate the people for a rebellion or anything like that (with some exceptions I guess?). Zhungzi declined serving the emperor precisely to be able to preserve his honesty.

 

In today's age we have no emperors. We can speak a lot more freely. We really should take advantage of that! Western society is every taoist's wish come true when it comes to freedom of speech values (confucianists would probably hate it though!). Sure we have all kinds of cultural problems, especially greed, but we have many good qualities that the sages would praise. And we are actually a lot less greedy than the Chinese, as a culture.

 

I aim to rise above the materiality 100%. If that means some day some emperor will kill me, I accept it. I might kill the emperor before dying though. Or leave the emperor without an eye. I have no pity for fools and don't mind ruining their bodies if they are a big fool, like would be the case with an emperor.

Edited November 22, 2008 by goldisheavy

[HouTian]

So what are the 8 Mantras ?