Which three treasures?

[Arne]

I know of the three treasures of jing-qi-shen of "internal alchemy".

 

And I know of the three treasures of compassion, frugality and humility from chapter 67 in Daodejing.

 

But I don't understand the connection between these two versions of "three treasures".

Are there even any such connection? Anybody care to enlighten me on this?

 

Arne

[Stigweard]

Hi Arne, you have asked a really insightful question.

 

Now I could be wrong, I am sure most members here have much more insight than myself, but here is my suggestion on the matter.

 

If I had to theorise a connection I would do it like this:

 

Jing = Frugality or Simplicity

Qi = Compassion or Kindness

Shen = Humility

 

I base this on my understanding that Jing, housed in the lower Tan Tien, is our expression in the earthly, material realm and thus we should cultivate simplicity so that we don't waste our life force in excessive material expansion. Qi, housed in the middle Tan Tien, is our expression in the human, interpersonal realm and thus we should cultivate kindness in order to engender harmonious relationships. Shen, housed in the upper Tan Tien, is our expression in the heavenly realm and thus we should cultivate humility, recognising the interdependence of life and not putting one's importance first in the world.

 

I would be very interested to hear other people's perspective and comments on this.

 

I know of the three treasures of jing-qi-shen of "internal alchemy".

 

And I know of the three treasures of compassion, frugality and humility from chapter 67 in Daodejing.

 

But I don't understand the connection between these two versions of "three treasures".

Are there even any such connection? Anybody care to enlighten me on this?

 

Arne

[goldisheavy]

I know of the three treasures of jing-qi-shen of "internal alchemy".

 

And I know of the three treasures of compassion, frugality and humility from chapter 67 in Daodejing.

 

But I don't understand the connection between these two versions of "three treasures".

Are there even any such connection? Anybody care to enlighten me on this?

 

Arne

 

Connections can be seen in different ways. I think approaching the question from an angle where you ask an external authority to show you "how it is", is wrong, because then it seems like you just want some easy dogma to follow. So I don't know what relationship there is, or isn't, but I want to do my best to present what I think about those terms and let you decide what is there, if anything.

 

Jing, to me, means manifestation or actualization. It is that which is tangible and undeniable. It is obvious to all. It is not hidden from anyone. It is concrete. In Buddhism a similar concept is Nirmanakaya.

 

Qi, to me, is an aspect of liveliness. It is truth of aliveness. Aliveness includes such properties as motion changing to stillness and stillness changing to motion, hot turning to cold and back, abstract turning into something concrete and something concrete becoming abstract, small becoming large and large becoming small and so forth. This is a half-way point between concrete and abstract. The truth of qi reminds us that concrete and abstract are not two distinct realities, nor are they derivations or simplifications of each other, but are two ends of one spectrum/continuum of cognizance. The natural tendency of the spirit to shimmer with appearances is qi. Qi is obvious to an individual (as opposed to all). In Buddhism a similar concept is Sambhogakaya.

 

Shen, to me, means the spirit, or the ultimate mind. It is the ultimate truth, or the fundamental truth, it is something that doesn't have an opposite and cannot be impeded in any way. At best, one can be distracted from it, but it's never lost. This is what transcends all specifications and it has no examples anywhere. It's the ultimate abstraction. Shen is not obvious. In Buddhism a similar concept is Dharmakaya.

 

Compassion -- this is a wish to end all suffering. This represents emotional honesty.

 

Frugality -- this is a quality of intent whereby you are able to reach contentment. This means you don't desire too little, and you don't desire too much, but you desire just right and your desires are always fulfilled. This quality is a consequence of the two types of honesty, emotional and intellectual. So someone who is spiritually honest is also someone who naturally, without trying, is never overreaching and never underreaching. So this represents an honesty of intent.

 

Humility -- this is a tendency to state things just as they are, without exaggerating, without diminution, without pretentious social self-deprecation. This "stating" doesn't refer to just talking, but it is a manner of being, wherein one doesn't exaggerate or diminish any phenomena. This represents intellectual honesty.

 

So, since intellect, or reason, is the most rarefied quality that all living creatures possess, it might be connected to spirit (shen). So humility can be seen as a virtue of the spirit.

 

Since intent is something that's between completely hidden and completely apparent, perfection of it, is a virtue of qi (lifeforce, liveliness, aliveness).

 

And since compassion is something that arises when we see that suffering is bad, which usually happens after something bad has already manifested and we say, "Uh oh... I don't think I want that", it is a virtue of a mature/completed manifestation.

 

However, I would say that these things are not actually 3 separate things. All of this is just shen/spirit. And the entirety of the spiritual path is nothing other than attaining progressively more and more honesty (especially inner honesty for those of us that still think we are separate beings which have an inner and outer side to their experience). So if you don't perceive a divide between inner and outer, it's just honesty, but if you do perceive such a divide, it's all about inner honesty first and foremost.

 

But is that the connection? Do you want this to be it? You do have a say in this.

Edited November 19, 2008 by goldisheavy

[picnic]

As for Simplicity, Patience and Compassion (or other similar words) I boil that down to Compassion. Patience is an aspect of compassion and living a simple life if compassionate to nature and others. So Compassion is it.

 

And in the other trinity, I go all is Mind.

 

So a compassionate mind. The One mind is compassionate in its very nature as it gives all there is, and more we can not know. Our greatest achievement is to live that way too, not judging, being nice, and simple - and there I have made 1 back to 3.

 

Never ask the Tao for a straight answer.

[Arne]

I think approaching the question from an angle where you ask an external authority to show you "how it is", is wrong, because then it seems like you just want some easy dogma to follow.

 

Dogma has never interested me and I really did try to figure it out, but couldn't come up with anything satisfactory. It's not just laziness... So I thought that since there are many people here at Taobums wiser than me, someone could give me something to chew on. And if I don't like the taste I can always spit it out.

 

All of the replies so far has certainly given me food for further contemplation, and I'll be back with my own view when I have something to say.

 

 

"Never ask the Tao for a straight answer."

I ask for, but don't expect one.

 

 

Thank you.

[WhiteTiger]

When you get into Taoist practices (at least as far as Internal Alchemy goes, but i'm sure there are other ones also that do the same thing) You come to understand the drawing of parallels of things. Meaning as the practice deepens you realize one thing connects with another thing. As your Wisdom grows through experience and advancing you level (if you can call it level) advances. You learn to encompass more then just one meaning because they are connected, therefor you are you learn to talk and understand things in such a deep understanding things begin to meld. You see things with a sort of sight that is learned through practice (no teacher needs to teach it to you, this can be done through you own self contemplation along with the teachings of the practice, i guess that part does need a teacher/transmitter).

 

So my point is simply, things start to make sense as a whole. You will learn a language or a way to talk that speaks on not one level but many. Because of this reason your talking never hold wrong. The more deeper your practice goes the more you just see things like this.

 

You can also say Jing, Qi and Shen are all corrispond to the Lower Energy field (sometimes generally talked as the Lower Dan Tien I believe the proper name is the Xuan Pin) Middle Energy field (generally talked as if its the Middle Dan Tien I believe the proper name is Fang Cun) and the Upper Energy field (generally talk as if its the Upper Dan Tien I believe the proper name is Niwan) {on a side note i could be slightly incorrect with the names, feel free to correct me. I honestly don't wish to mislead people.}

 

There are even more parallels then just that. Anyway this can be talked about in theory all you want... I suggest trying to experience and understand things through experience. From their you can REALLY learn this stuff.

[Taiji Bum]

This just popped into my bald head.....

 

Frugality- conserve jing

Compassion- meditate

Humility- when the qi rises surrender to it to obtain shen

[Arne]

Ok, here is an attempt at a simple explanation according to my limited knowledge of these things...

 

Compassion means extending beyond the ego, thus reducing fear, producing courage. Interestingly, courage comes from the latin word for heart, which traditionally is the seat of compassion/love.

 

Simplicity means that the mind is free from the stress and strain of holding on to too many physical possessions or mental ideas. This releases lots of energy, producing strength.

 

Humility means not trying to force someone or something to obey one's will, but rather follow the natural flow of things. When you're not trying to be someone you're not, all the work that you should do can be done. Is this not being influential?

 

Now, in taoist alchemy (or taoist yoga) we have jing/qi/shen.

 

Jing is connected with the lower dan tien, sacral chakra, which is associated with earthly, material values, desire. Taoism recommends a simple life without too many material posessions. Also, a regulated sexual life is recommended, since jing is also connected to sexuality. In other words, a healthy and simple life in contact with the earth (nature) strengthens your jing (essence), allows you to control your desires and gives you strength.

 

Qi is connected with the middle dan tian, heart chakra, which is associated with personal and interpersonal relations, emotions. Taoism emphasizes the importance of compassion, which really is an expression of love, which traditionally is associated with the heart. In other words, practicing empathy and "random acts of kindness" strengthens your qi (life force) and gives you courage.

 

Shen is connected with the upper dan tian, brow chakra, which is associated with creativity and conscious contact with the source (Tao), thoughts. According to taoism everything emanates from the source and there is a universal movement of return to this source, which is unity, pure consciousness. To achieve a conscious connection with the source, you have to be humble enough to realize that you (your ego) is part of something infinitely larger. Then you will not always put yourself first, rather you will go with the natural flow of things. Then the work that should be done will be done, and you have all the influence you need.

[Tao99]

What a scamp is Lao Tzu! What scoundrels the ancients with their secrets and misdirections, their numerology and obtuse language! To use the well known 3 treasures concept as his name for his threefold teh. How the adepts must have lauphed!

Edited December 3, 2008 by Tao99

[Mak_Tin_Si]

These are not the three treasures of TAOISM.

 

TAOISM's three treasures are : DAO , JING, SI

 

DAO - The way of tao

JING - The Scriptures

SI - The masters

 

Jing-Qi-Shen is just so called 3 treasures of human. Not in Taoism.

Dao De Jing is not represetative of Taoism, so don't mis-understand that the chapter 67's quote means the 3 treasures in taoism.

 

I know of the three treasures of jing-qi-shen of "internal alchemy".

 

And I know of the three treasures of compassion, frugality and humility from chapter 67 in Daodejing.

 

But I don't understand the connection between these two versions of "three treasures".

Are there even any such connection? Anybody care to enlighten me on this?

 

Arne

[Tao99]

These are not the three treasures of TAOISM.

 

TAOISM's three treasures are : DAO , JING, SI

 

DAO - The way of tao

JING - The Scriptures

SI - The masters

 

Jing-Qi-Shen is just so called 3 treasures of human. Not in Taoism.

Dao De Jing is not represetative of Taoism, so don't mis-understand that the chapter 67's quote means the 3 treasures in taoism.

 

That sound like the Three Refuges of Buddhism. Have you mixed Buddhism into your religion, and dropped the central tenet of most Taoist schools of the three treasures? How does one attain to the sacred One without the three treasure? The Tao Teh Ching contains the complete code of the Tao, in obtuse language only the Taoists adepts could understand.

 

Three Refuges (Triple Jewel) of Buddhism:

 

The Dharma, the Buddha, and the Sanga .

 

1) The Dharma is literally, "The Way", meaning the way of life to be followed as a Buddhist.

 

2) Belief in Buddha and his message.

 

3) Sanga- the Buddhist clergy ( Buddhist monks)

Edited December 3, 2008 by Tao99

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Taoism and Buddhism is on the same line, of course they are the same. They just train in a very different way but their goal is the same. There is no difference.

 

Tao Te Ching DO NOT CONCLUE all of Taoism. If you think so, that means you need more time finding the other scriptues in Taoism. there are the taoism canon there that include TONs of taoism scriptures that said things which Tao te ching do not said. Tao Te Ching only consist of Tao Ching and Te Ching.

 

Tao Ching is explaining a brief intro of the patterns in nature.

 

Te Ching is explaining a brief intro in ethics and virtue in nature.

 

It never said anything about TAOISM in a whole. At least where can you find FU and mantras in Tao Te Ching, where can you find any sort of practise in it? Anything to study or practise in it? No. So it of course does not tell you what the 3 treasurs are in taoism.

 

 

 

That sound like the Three Refuges of Buddhism. Have you mixed Buddhism into your religion, and dropped the central tenet of most Taoist schools of the three treasures? How does one attain to the sacred One without the three treasure? The Tao Teh Ching contains the complete code of the Tao, in obtuse language only the Taoists adepts could understand.

 

Three Refuges (Triple Jewel) of Buddhism:

 

The Dharma, the Buddha, and the Sanga .

 

1) The Dharma is literally, "The Way", meaning the way of life to be followed as a Buddhist.

 

2) Belief in Buddha and his message.

 

3) Sanga- the Buddhist clergy ( Buddhist monks)

[Tao99]

Taoism and Buddhism is on the same line, of course they are the same. They just train in a very different way but their goal is the same. There is no difference.

 

Tao Te Ching DO NOT CONCLUE all of Taoism. If you think so, that means you need more time finding the other scriptues in Taoism. there are the taoism canon there that include TONs of taoism scriptures that said things which Tao te ching do not said. Tao Te Ching only consist of Tao Ching and Te Ching.

 

Tao Ching is explaining a brief intro of the patterns in nature.

 

Te Ching is explaining a brief intro in ethics and virtue in nature.

 

It never said anything about TAOISM in a whole. At least where can you find FU and mantras in Tao Te Ching, where can you find any sort of practise in it? Anything to study or practise in it? No. So it of course does not tell you what the 3 treasurs are in taoism.

 

Yes. You are right there are lots of specific practices/things not in the Tao Teh Ching. What I mean is only that that the complete overall abstract "code" of the Tao is there. In other words an abstract outline of all the milestones of the Tao from start to finish. Thanks.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Yes, as you said, it only tell you the tao, which is the pattern of Nature, like how people explain evolution theories. But it never tell you anything about things to practise, ethics, or even the 3 treasures. So don't use that to judge taoism. Taoism does have much more than tao te ching.

 

 

Yes. You are right there are lots of specific practices/things not in the Tao Teh Ching. What I mean is only that that the complete overall abstract "code" of the Tao is there. In other words an abstract outline of all the milestones of the Tao from start to finish. Thanks.