Respect for Taoist oral & lineage traditions

[Ya Mu]

I am posting this because I am amazed at some of the posts here in answer to postings by a Taoist Priest.

I'm sure I will catch some flack for this but here goes.

 

Re: Recent posts by a Taoist Priest

This gentlemen appears to be honestly posting on the experience of Taoist tradition and studies AS DONE IN CHINA. Some have given him quite a bit of negative feedback because (it appears) you don't like organized "religion". But what he posts is very worthwhile and I for one find it very interesting. No, I don't particularly like too much form either. But I know many of the things, especially the High Level teachings, are NOT in the books but are handed down in Lineage.

 

I know for myself one of the most awesome "happenings" to me was in a Taoist temple in China that I was simply touring. Something that absolutely can't be explained linearly. I also know the lineage teachings go way beyond reading the books and sometimes energetically happen instantaneously because they were meant to be (destiny).

 

How many of the books tell about the lost Taoist Medicine system that ABSOLUTELY HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH TCM? The answer is none. Very few people, even in China, know it ever existed. But a certain Taoist family lineage kept it alive.

 

I think the teachings ALL (books included) have something to offer us. Just be careful in taking translations from various Chinese texts as direct knowledge or as absolute because even the Chinese Scholars disagree.

And I know oral traditions can be distorted as well, but at least one can experience the energetics associated with the lineage and it is much easier to get the essence of the teachings when studying with a real teacher.

 

I am not sure if I have any real point to make here, just stating some thoughts. Sure not trying to offend anyone.

[Aetherous]

Hi Ya Mu,

 

I recently got your book from amazon...fun read. I'm really interested in stillness movement...may look into it later.

 

I have respect for what works and what's true. I tend to not have respect for people's false beliefs and useless doctrine.

 

The Taoist priest you're talking about seems to me to have some good things to share.

 

Oh yeah...I'm truly interested in the lost Taoist medicine that has nothing to do with TCM, that you're referring to!!

[goldisheavy]

I am posting this because I am amazed at some of the posts here in answer to postings by a Taoist Priest.

I'm sure I will catch some flack for this but here goes.

 

Hi Ya Mu.

 

So if Pope started to post here, we should respect him too? How about Dalai Lama? Personally, I respect good insight and not good people. If "good person" posts bad insight, I will not respect that. But if a seemingly bad person posts good insight, I will respect it.

 

A title does not indicate anything whatsoever about the person's spiritual standing. Old masters were respected not because they had fancy titles, but because the students naturally loved them. The masters didn't have to BEAT the students into submission to get respect. They didn't have to beg for it. It was given naturally and happily as a result of being grateful for wisdom.

 

On the other hand, when someone comes in spouting something bordering on delusion (not to say lacking in wisdom), what I am going to show that someone is my honest opinion. I don't aim to disrespect, but I am not going to sugar-coat or offer unnecessary bows or flowery arrangements of language just to pay dues to titles and social position.

 

You know, it's paying too much attention to the titles and social positions that makes us (mentally) stuck in this (appearance of the) lower realm to begin with.

[Ya Mu]

Hi Ya Mu.

 

So if Pope started to post here, we should respect him too? How about Dalai Lama? Personally, I respect good insight and not good people. If "good person" posts bad insight, I will not respect that. But if a seemingly bad person posts good insight, I will respect it.

 

A title does not indicate anything whatsoever about the person's spiritual standing. Old masters were respected not because they had fancy titles, but because the students naturally loved them. The masters didn't have to BEAT the students into submission to get respect. They didn't have to beg for it. It was given naturally and happily as a result of being grateful for wisdom.

 

On the other hand, when someone comes in spouting something bordering on delusion (not to say lacking in wisdom), what I am going to show that someone is my honest opinion. I don't aim to disrespect, but I am not going to sugar-coat or offer unnecessary bows or flowery arrangements of language just to pay dues to titles and social position.

 

You know, it's paying too much attention to the titles and social positions that makes us (mentally) stuck in this (appearance of the) lower realm to begin with.

 

Yes to the Dalai Lama. But the pope? He may just surprise us......

 

His perspective is from living in China and from living in the tradition of a Taoist Priest. Yes, we in the West have a different perspective. And boy do I not enjoy dealing with titles and such. Way too many "Masters" (and I use the word very loosely) here in the West much less in China But the Lineage information is something that can't be gotten from a book.

 

I totally agree with you about the titles and social positions and I certainly think you have a valid viewpoint. I just think folks are not looking at it from his perspective (and how could we if we didn't live it) and believe we should respect the essence of what he is saying. Beyond the trappings of the "office", I think he probably knows a great deal.

Nothing wrong with expressing your honest opinion.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Ya Mu

[Ya Mu]

Hi Ya Mu,

 

I recently got your book from amazon...fun read. I'm really interested in stillness movement...may look into it later.

 

I have respect for what works and what's true. I tend to not have respect for people's false beliefs and useless doctrine.

 

The Taoist priest you're talking about seems to me to have some good things to share.

 

Oh yeah...I'm truly interested in the lost Taoist medicine that has nothing to do with TCM, that you're referring to!!

 

I never know where the books go. Glad you had fun with it. I did too.

 

The Taoist Medicine is actually a neuro-energetic form (Think Qi projection applied to the neurological pathways in a specific vibratory pattern).

 

What may be false belief from one perspective is truth to another perspective, i.e. it is relative to the culture. When all is said and done, what we think is silly is what others may use to launch themselves to the Higher Levels. It's the getting there that counts.

[goldisheavy]

Yes to the Dalai Lama.

 

I am not impressed with the Dalai Lama. So it wouldn't be an automatic yes from me. Many "less important" Tibetan teachers impress me far more than the Dalai Lama.

 

But the pope? He may just surprise us......

 

I'd like to see that happen.

 

His perspective is from living in China and from living in the tradition of a Taoist Priest. Yes, we in the West have a different perspective. And boy do I not enjoy dealing with titles and such. Way too many "Masters" (and I use the word very loosely) here in the West much less in China But the Lineage information is something that can't be gotten from a book.

 

Books can't teach you to think critically either. On the other hand, I don't understand why is it that the spiritual people so often denigrate books? I don't get it. A symbol is a symbol. It's an appearance in the mind. A book is as much a living breathing entity as is a human being. Both books and human bodies are symbols in the mind. They are both nothing other than meanings. When you read books, what you get from them is the light of your own mind. When masters talk to you, once again, what you get is just the light of your own mind again. You get the light of your own mind in either case (if you are lucky!). There is no guarantee that the person will always perform better than a book. Where does the belief in inferiority of books come from? (Ha! I know where it comes from, actually)

 

Let's discuss the root concerns instead of dressing ourselves up in flowery language. Let's talk about what hurts and what we want from life. Let's talk about why we care about spirituality. Is it just a social club? Is it because we need a sense of belonging? Why? These are the serious questions that any serious practitioner should ask (of themselves first, and of others second). To come and to skip all that, and to proceed straight away to the superficial trappings of religion is a completely wrongheaded approach, especially for someone who claims to be a "master".

Edited November 20, 2008 by goldisheavy

[fiveelementtao]

I am posting this because I am amazed at some of the posts here in answer to postings by a Taoist Priest.

I'm sure I will catch some flack for this but here goes.

 

Re: Recent posts by a Taoist Priest

This gentlemen appears to be honestly posting on the experience of Taoist tradition and studies AS DONE IN CHINA. Some have given him quite a bit of negative feedback because (it appears) you don't like organized "religion". But what he posts is very worthwhile and I for one find it very interesting. No, I don't particularly like too much form either. But I know many of the things, especially the High Level teachings, are NOT in the books but are handed down in Lineage.

 

I know for myself one of the most awesome "happenings" to me was in a Taoist temple in China that I was simply touring. Something that absolutely can't be explained linearly. I also know the lineage teachings go way beyond reading the books and sometimes energetically happen instantaneously because they were meant to be (destiny).

 

How many of the books tell about the lost Taoist Medicine system that ABSOLUTELY HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH TCM? The answer is none. Very few people, even in China, know it ever existed. But a certain Taoist family lineage kept it alive.

 

I think the teachings ALL (books included) have something to offer us. Just be careful in taking translations from various Chinese texts as direct knowledge or as absolute because even the Chinese Scholars disagree.

And I know oral traditions can be distorted as well, but at least one can experience the energetics associated with the lineage and it is much easier to get the essence of the teachings when studying with a real teacher.

 

I am not sure if I have any real point to make here, just stating some thoughts. Sure not trying to offend anyone.

Ya Mu,

What people are responding negatively to is not this man's lineage. I for one have enjoyed many of his posts and found them to be very educational. I think we all respect that he is an initiate in a temple. If he were simply sharing his understanding and experiences, everyone would be grateful. But if you look through some of his posts you will see him inferring that the rest of us are not real taoists because we have not been initiated in his sect or learned as he has.

I find it very naiive of him that he doesn't even acknowledge that his is only ONE of many taoist sects and that many of those sects probably disagree with his. So, it is not his knowledge or his traditional taoist training that we are objecting to. It is his superior attitude that we find objectionable and very non-taoist.

[Aetherous]

But the pope? He may just surprise us......

 

Funny story...

 

A couple of years ago I was driving on a road trip listening to talk radio for some reason. All of a sudden the pope came on speaking his foreign language (forgot which one it is, sorry) and I had a kundalini awakening that was quite strong. I actually had to pull over to the side of the road til I felt normal again.

[Taiji Bum]

Hey, I love the Pope! I love that Taoist priest too! His posts on most things are very educational, but here at the Tao Bums there is always a new Tao sect trying to convert us to their brand of Taoism. This guy at least is also posting general information about Taoists practices and not just trying to save us from the end of the world. I like this guy waaaaaaay better than the end of the world Taoist guy. I hope this one stays, but like the rest.... when he finds no converts he will most likely leave.

 

Note to future converters: Post cool educational stuff for months, post in other peoples threads with wise help, post funny things and then.... when you have a solid reputation.... let it slip that you are a Taoist priest with a new temple and you'll be suprised at how good a response you will get!

[YMWong]

His perspective is from living in China and from living in the tradition of a Taoist Priest.

 

I don't think this is the case.

 

MTS comes from a modern re-formed """daoist""" line typical of Hong Kong and, while much of what he says can be agreed by Daoists in China, I don't think that's representative of that kind of lineage.

 

YM

[sheng zhen]

"""daoist"""

Double air quotes??? Now THATs "really" "" ""!

 

Anyways, I dont think any one can ever come to the taobums, or any other open social gathering, and not have someone who is disrespecting them. This is a natural social law. You will allways have someone disagreeing with you or joking in your posts.

 

It would happen to Laozi himself too if he where to post here. Noone escapes social law. I just wish more people would not bother with it, stick with us and still contribute with their insights and knowledge.

[YMWong]

Double air quotes??? Now THATs "really" "" ""!

 

Actually that was a triple quotes

 

I don't know, what would you say of somebody who writes post after post about the importance of a true Master, of a real Lineage etc. and than about himself say:

 

The first generation leader master and host of Chi in Nature's Taoism Branch are named Mak, Kwok Kay [...] Mak Tin-Si was born with seriously weakened vision and hearing. He is also infected from some decease throughout which caused him very easy to get ill when he was young. Therefore, it is very difficult for Mak Tin-Si to learn under regular circumstances with the others. However, Mak Tin-Si love Chinese culture ever since he is very young. During his childhood, he is already deeply studying in Chinese Cultural Art, Chinese paintings and calligraphy, music, martial arts (kungfu), philosophy, religion, etc. Beginning from the age of 4, Mak Tin-Si began to study Taoism under a Taoism master in Hong Kong.

 

During an evening of 2002's spring, Mak Tin-Si was training in front of the altar as he normally does. A flash of gold light suddenly loomed and unveiled an immortal ahead of Mak Tin-Si's eye. He is the grand master of a Taoism lineage. His name is "Luk Yam Sin Si"　六壬仙師.

 

Mak Tin-Si knelt down with great respect and awaited for grand master's instruction. After a few moments, grand master the Luk Yam Sin Si 　六壬仙師　begins to give instruction.

 

I wonder where is the real Master and the true lineage ?

 

No disrespect, simply reading what he says is it not ?

 

YM

[Ya Mu]

It is his superior attitude that we find objectionable and very non-taoist.

 

I, too, find that to be objectionable.

I think I just automatically don't pay attention to all that stuff and pay more attention to the Lineage thing. My defense of this gentleman comes not from agreeing with him, but from my own personal energy experiences from having met others like him. Usually, everyone we meet has something to offer. That is one reason I give my students an exercise that I tongue-in-cheek call the "great wally world High Level teachings". I show them the basics of SEEING then have them go to the BIG Store and walk around in a "qi state" with this, "Everyone I meet is just me at another stage of development." It is usually a very profound experience for most folks.

 

I enjoy your thoughtful posts. Thanks for replying.

 

 

Anyways, I dont think any one can ever come to the taobums, or any other open social gathering, and not have someone who is disrespecting them. This is a natural social law. You will allways have someone disagreeing with you or joking in your posts.

 

It would happen to Laozi himself too if he where to post here. Noone escapes social law. I just wish more people would not bother with it, stick with us and still contribute with their insights and knowledge.

 

This board is much more civilized than some. I made the mistake years ago of posting in a MA forum. Yikes!

[Ya Mu]

On the other hand, I don't understand why is it that the spiritual people so often denigrate books? ....... Where does the belief in inferiority of books come from? (Ha! I know where it comes from, actually)

 

My problem with (a lot of) books is that anyone can write a book and say anything they want to (I know I did). And while it is easy to imprint an energy vibration in the book, it is static and not dynamic. At least with a real teacher the energy transmission is dynamic and not static.

 

Let's discuss the root concerns instead of dressing ourselves up in flowery language. Let's talk about what hurts and what we want from life. Let's talk about why we care about spirituality. Is it just a social club? Is it because we need a sense of belonging? Why? These are the serious questions that any serious practitioner should ask (of themselves first, and of others second). To come and to skip all that, and to proceed straight away to the superficial trappings of religion is a completely wrongheaded approach, especially for someone who claims to be a "master".

 

Have to totally agree with you. I was as a child forced to attend a southern baptist church. When I became 9 years old I told my mother that I wasn't going anymore (and didn't) because what these people were teaching was not the truth.

 

Funny story...

 

A couple of years ago I was driving on a road trip listening to talk radio for some reason. All of a sudden the pope came on speaking his foreign language (forgot which one it is, sorry) and I had a kundalini awakening that was quite strong. I actually had to pull over to the side of the road til I felt normal again.

 

Goes to show us that true awakening can come from the least expected source and at the least expected moment.

[ZenStatic]

On the other hand, when someone comes in spouting something bordering on delusion (not to say lacking in wisdom), what I am going to show that someone is my honest opinion. I don't aim to disrespect, but I am not going to sugar-coat or offer unnecessary bows or flowery arrangements of language just to pay dues to titles and social position.

 

Nice to see you can completely contradict yourself in 2 sentences. Most people at least add some filler between. There is an old saying to keep in mind, "It's not what you say, but how you say it." When you say "bordering on delusion", you don't show honest opinion, you show disrespect. There are many other ways you could have said the same thing without stooping to a personal attack.

[Pietro]

I have to say, I am amazed by this thread.

Way to go!

 

I am very grateful with Ya Mu for bringing this up. And yes I too was taken aback by the level of disrespect toward the taoist priest. But I also have to agree on a number of points that were raised (for example by "fiveelementtao") :

He did came here looking for new members of his church and he did not expressedly say so. Which I thought was funny for a person so hung up in always telling the truth. .

His attitute was really the attitute of "I know, you poor westerner do not know". He showed no sign of respect for anybody else here. Or for their school, for that matter.

He did say that school in China respect and recognise each other. Using the hand sign as a way to recognise the various traditions. So he must have assumed that no one of us was studying in an authentic tradition.

 

He did ask, on one of his early posts, who was already studying with a Taoist Master. And no one I recall answered to that. But this is no tell-tale. Especially in Taoism where people do keep their practices for themselves, and sometimes are also bound by vows to do so.

 

I am also very grateful for """Our Man in Havana""", YMWong , who could tell tell us how this kind of school are popular in Hong Kong, and they are "modern Reformed daoist". (And you thought Christians had too many denominations, wait until we meet the reborn taoist, and the late day immortals taoists. They are bound to be there, somwhere). It is really important to keep things in perspective to know what is the real situation where a person is coming from, to judge if the way he is describing himself is also the way others would be describing him. It is very easy for a person to move from one country to another, and be called a master over there. It has happened, it is happening, and it will keep on happening.

 

But I also thought that what he was presenting was very interesting. The lions, and the greetings, and so on.

 

I think if this group wants to grow we need to be able to attract a more diverse crowd, a crowd that includes religious taoists, and philosophers, and martial artists, and healers, with most if not all of them being meditators.

 

We need to be able to interact with every new school or tradition explaining how our plurality of visions is not to be seen as barren land to be conquered, but as a complex inter-related society. A sociey which will be very interested (by and large), to hear them; a society where they might even find some students; but also a society which historically many school has tried to conquer in one sweep, and have always failed to do so. We have by now developed our antibodies to external schools which makes us fall less into a daze every time a new Master comes around.

 

In the measure in which we are able to comunicate this, we are not going to see the Tao Bum rock like a crazy boat every time a new school arrives, but we are going to interact with them in a respectful way, learning from them. Integrating some of what they are saying, and maybe also sharing something of what we might know.

 

And I think this Taoist Priest is a good man; yes he believes that his school is the best, but com'on who doesn't . I think if we were to present him this unified position, he might be willing and interested to keep on posting. And maybe he might shift his point of view just enough not to expect that everybody is going to run asking for an initiation to him.

 

By the way, I do feel also a bit responsible: when he started interacting with us I went to his website and then posted a message saying that his program might become quite popular around here. If he read it, this might have influenced his attitude.

 

"goldisheavy", Anabhogya-Carya, please understand that in this board each of us has a lot of power. Especially respect to new people. By posting a few angry comment you can really turn back a person from posting. Now you might not care about what a person is saying, and you might not agree with him, but you need to interact in a way that does not prevent other people from enjoying their interaction. Often just by rephrasing your critic in a less harsh way, you can let the message come across. Now, we olders of the board will just ignore this behaviour if it is done against us, but new people will often walk away. Especially people who either are used to be very respected or expect to be very respected. Independently if you feel this respect is well earned or not.

 

If the present Pope were to come here we would interact with him in a civilized way. We would probably strongly disagree with him on a number of points (like why he swore to follow the Concilio Vaticano II, and then ignored it, or parts of it), but we will act with him in a civilised way that would not stop the conversation from happening.

[Wayfarer64]

I question everyone here and elsewhere who claims that their way is the best way. Everyone, encluding my own sifu! I mean no disrespect. I only mean to open the doors that seperate levels of hierarchical standing we each impose on ourselves and each other, this is so- even when I agree with the premisses involved.

 

Up is down from hemisphere to hemisphere, perspective is dubious

 

that we are are all one thing-(beings of mostly light) - I may take for granted...The rest seems beside the point...

[ZenStatic]

I question everyone here and elsewhere who claims that their way is the best way. Everyone, encluding my own sifu! I mean no disrespect. I only mean to open the doors that seperate levels of hierarchical standing we each impose on ourselves and each other, this is so- even when I agree with the premisses involved.

 

Up is down from hemisphere to hemisphere, perspective is dubious

 

that we are are all one thing-(beings of mostly light) - I may take for granted...The rest seems beside the point...

 

Heh, what you said made me think of something I have heard before. "If you don't believe you have the best teacher in the world, then you need a new teacher."

[Wayfarer64]

Heh, what you said made me think of something I have heard before. "If you don't believe you have the best teacher in the world, then you need a new teacher."

 

I maintain that watching nature is my BEST teacher, my sifu and other educators will never have that much to teach me, because their knowledge is just static compaired to the world's ongoing growth and evolving propensity...

[goldisheavy]

Nice to see you can completely contradict yourself in 2 sentences. Most people at least add some filler between. There is an old saying to keep in mind, "It's not what you say, but how you say it." When you say "bordering on delusion", you don't show honest opinion, you show disrespect. There are many other ways you could have said the same thing without stooping to a personal attack.

 

There is no contradiction at all. I don't come to this forum thinking, "Gee, whom shall I disrespect today? Let's look for a target for my seething disrespect! Let's look quickly now...." I don't think and I don't feel like that when I come here. On the other hand, had I simply said this man was deluded and made no other comments, you'd be right about taking me up on that line. However, I said so only after making many posts explaining quite clearly and in detail what I think is wrong with this guy.

 

Anyway, I don't aim to personally attack this guy at all. As soon as he starts sharing from the heart and not from his tradition, and as soon as he talks in plain and straightforward manner without all the artificial politeness, I think he'll get plenty of warm reception from many people, and certainly from me.

[三江源]

Just popping my head in to say that I am an older of this board and I expect to be very respected.

 

Just want to make this really clear.

 

In case anyone wasnt quite clear.

 

I hope I have made myself clear.

 

And that you respect me for that.

 

natch.

[Rolf]

Just popping my head in to say that I am an older of this board and I expect to be very respected.

 

Just want to make this really clear.

 

In case anyone wasnt quite clear.

 

I hope I have made myself clear.

 

And that you respect me for that.

 

natch.

 

 

Catch & and fish....

[orb]

 

 

So if Pope started to post here,

 

associative thinking:

 

The pope smokes dope, God gave him the grass

The pope smokes dope, he likes to smoke in mass

The pope smokes dope, he's a groovy head

The pope smokes dope, the pope smokes dope

 

God is high on mescaline, Satan's high on smack

Popes in Rome get stoned on grass, Jesus freaks are back

Jesus Christ, a super-hippie, never shot up junk

Popes in Rome get stoned alone, priests in church get drunk

[seekeroftruth]

associative thinking:

 

The pope smokes dope, God gave him the grass

The pope smokes dope, he likes to smoke in mass

The pope smokes dope, he's a groovy head

The pope smokes dope, the pope smokes dope

 

God is high on mescaline, Satan's high on smack

Popes in Rome get stoned on grass, Jesus freaks are back

Jesus Christ, a super-hippie, never shot up junk

Popes in Rome get stoned alone, priests in church get drunk

 

This reminds me of a song I once heard:

 

[exorcist_1699]

The criteria to judge whether a guy is a master/ guru/ immortal is not to hear what he boasts of , but to ask some critical questions , for example:

 

1) Is it important to get rid of nocturnal release of jing ? how ?

 

2) Why mindlessness can be a trap , not an achievement ..etc ?

 

and, see how he replies .

 

Whether the guy is familiar with the Taoist classics is another important criterion ; most immortals / masters

are well educated/ self-educated and familiar with the theory ; otherwise , how can they be free from the shackles of so many untrue schools/ ideas in this world ? One simple fact is , capable of reading 1~2 pieces of taoist original classics is better than reading hundreds of modern translated Taoist books in the West .

 

Of course, it sounds a little difficult to beginners; this is the reason why they are always misled .

Edited November 27, 2008 by exorcist_1699