i_am_sam Posted November 20, 2008 Interesting thread, sorry I don't really have anything useful to add but.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hyok Posted November 20, 2008 Bruce Lee probably did more than any person ever in bringing Eastern culture to the West. He did this through showcasing the BadAss-ness of martial arts through cinema. I've gotta say though, he had to have had one helluv an ego as well as a strong desire to be famous to accomplish what he did. I'm sure the underlying drive to bring East to the West was prevalent in his motivations so i don't want to take anything away from his accomplishments because he truly was a gifted individual in more ways than just martial arts. I mean, just coming to the US and getting inside a very close-knit Hollywood at the time was a remarkable achievement in and of itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuen Biao Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) That's fine with me, I'm just sharing information I got directly from Cheung many years ago. He didn't seem at all bitter to me back then - he seemed to be doing exactly what he wanted in continuing to teach and train and seemed to be genuinely proud that he had been Bruce's friend as children. His point was that Bruce cared more about his career in the movies than about being a fighter - I think Bruce's life bears that out. He never fought professionally and fought very minimally in amateur competition. I could be wrong though... it doesn't matter to me one or the other. He was one of my early inspirations as well. If that is the case I may be wrong about Cheung; however I know that he and Boztepe embarrassed the Wing Chun world with their public feud! On your second point the evidence suggests categorically that you are wrong about Lee and his motivation. Lee trained more than any present pro-fighter and often slept only a couple of hours to train through the night, his writings and notes justify this. Unfortunately for Lee he had to make movies as this was necessary to gain income to support his family at the time. I do however acknowledge that he loved making movies but this was a way to export Asian and in particular Chinese philosophy to the West. In Lee's interview with Pierre Burton (spelling?) he was against the idea of a 'star' like McQueen and Eastwood and criticised the name and all it stood for. For me I interpreted this as Lee being humble and not egotistical in the slightest although he knew he was good at fighting. Finally regarding competition, you should know that Lee never believed in rules because that is no way to show off your skills, Lee fought to protect himself fundamentally. Lee said many times if you are to fight you have to put your whole body and soul into the fight and put your life on the line; in sport competitions this is not possible and is not a fair reflection on one's fighting prowess. However, that's not to say Lee did not spar because he was the first to introduce full-contact sparring to the U.S. Lee sparred with many, many great martial artists and none of them laid a finger on him, well maybe they did but we have yet to hear about it! This speaks volumes in my opinion. Edited November 21, 2008 by Yuen Biao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted November 21, 2008 Lee was friends with one of my teachers when they lived in hongkong, lee also learnt alot of Choy Lee Fut (Bak Sing). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackSquat Posted November 21, 2008 Finally regarding competition, you should know that Lee never believed in rules because that is no way to show off your skills, Lee fought to protect himself fundamentally. Lee said many times if you are to fight you have to put your whole body and soul into the fight and put your life on the line; in sport competitions this is not possible and is not a fair reflection on one's fighting prowess. However, that's not to say Lee did not spar... Precisely. Real life is no-holes-barred, and so is Jeet Kun Do. When the adrenaline is pumping and there's no time to think you do instinctively what you have trained to do, so you HAVE to have your head, your training, and your muscle memory all in the same place so you can go with the flow of the fight; that is, in fact, one of the main reasons to train at all. If you train for the rules of some sport, then in a real life or death situation you will fight like there are rules, and you won't give it your all, be prepared for the unexpected, or use all of your opportunities. If you train for life or death situations, you will spend the entire sport match second-guessing yourself and pulling punches. Either way, you are liable to get your head caved in. This, I feel, is probably why Bruce Lee did not really get into sport competitions. A Jeet Kun Do master can bring you to your knees in the blink of an eye with pretty much what ever piece of your body is in reach, but this is a huge no-no in sport fighting for several reasons. First of all, it's just plain really dangerous and athletes would be routinely and severely injured. Second, it's really hard to score a fight like that. Third, most fights would be over in a matter of seconds, not minutes, and the audience would have little way to tell (or even see) what was going on most of that time. This, of course, does not preclude sparring. When you aren't fighting for money or glory, the fight can stop or slow down if there's even a chance someone might get hurt. This, by the way, is why I believe the bit I was told about Bruce Lee occasionally losing sparring matches to his students; I feel like it's almost impossible not to occasionally have to concede getting caught by some of these techniques -- even though you had a good chance of getting away or could have kept on fighting despite the injury -- just to make sure you stay out of the danger zone. In the class I took we would train dangerous techniques full contact on a heavy bag or willing participant or whatever countless times, building muscle memory, then when we sparred we used these moves very carefully so as not to severely injure each other but still get experience using them against a moving, retaliating target -- what's the quote about boards not hitting back? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goldisheavy Posted November 22, 2008 (edited) If you train for life or death situations, you will spend the entire sport match second-guessing yourself and pulling punches. Either way, you are liable to get your head caved in. This, I feel, is probably why Bruce Lee did not really get into sport competitions. This reminds me of a story I read. One time there was a famous samurai who was known to be unbeatable. Someone challenged him to a kendo duel using the wooden swords, and this samurai lost. Then six men attacked him with real swords and he killed all of them in the blink of an eye without even thinking. The point was that in a formalized competition, he was confused by all the rules and had no idea what to do. Obviously he is not allowed to kill, and he knows he has to follow some rules, and since he's a Japanese, there is no (or not much) bending of the rules for him either. On the other hand, in a life and death situation, he was completely relaxed and just focused on killing everyone. In a sports competition you cannot usually produce an intent to kill. People who watch sports and the managers that organize the bouts do not pay money for blood baths. They want a nice "fair" fight. They don't want a one punch death. They don't want belly skin torn open with all the internal organs falling out, or eyeballs laying on the mat. This doesn't attract customers. So the intent to make money and the intent to present a "fair" fight completely nullifies the real martial art by taking the "martial" aspect out of it. It's no longer a war art, it is a spot art at that point. One of my dad's friends could tear the skin straight from a horse's corpse, just by grabbing it with his hand and ripping it off. He could easily do the same to a man. He could hold two 70lbs weights on stretched out arms and juggle them like they were tennis balls. Now, do you think a guy like that would have legitimate competition in UFC? I mean, he could break anyone at UFC in half or just grab their skin and rip it right off their body. He just wouldn't be allowed to exhibit any of that behavior though, and since he actually was a pretty good guy, he wouldn't disobey the rules just to show what he can do. Even in boxing, if the boxers came out not to box, but to kill, what we would see, even with the same techniques, would be so vastly different. In particular someone who wants to kill someone else rarely plans to spend 12*3min rounds on doing so (unless they want to torture the guy, but then then intent is more to torture than to kill). On the other hand, you cannot train to kill or spar to train to kill. If you spar with the intention to kill, you will very likely kill or be killed. So you won't be sparring that much with such intent. But sparring with the intention of a "fair" fight teaches very little about how to be in a life and death situation. If you guys watch UFC or Pride or whatever, you will notice that usually the fight splits into a dominant and submissive. The submissive guy plays a role and has already lost before the fight even started. They are like actors who take on certain roles (usually subconsciously, or consciously if they were paid to lose the fight). On the other hand if you have two dominant guys, there is no way to have a long lasting fair fight. Either they have to kill each other or they have to stand away from each other and barely touch. This is why some duels ended with two masters circling each other, bowing, and leaving. That's because they both recognized that the other had no psychological vulnerability to exploit, so it wasn't worth the trouble to try and fight. So most of the time, right at the beginning of the fight, you know who will win. Edited November 22, 2008 by goldisheavy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sloppy Zhang Posted November 22, 2008 This reminds me of a story I read. One time there was a famous samurai who was known to be unbeatable. Someone challenged him to a kendo duel using the wooden swords, and this samurai lost. Then six men attacked him with real swords and he killed all of them in the blink of an eye without even thinking. The point was that in a formalized competition, he was confused by all the rules and had no idea what to do. Obviously he is not allowed to kill, and he knows he has to follow some rules, and since he's a Japanese, there is no (or not much) bending of the rules for him either. On the other hand, in a life and death situation, he was completely relaxed and just focused on killing everyone. One guy I met said that he had a friend, and the reason she got out of the mainstream karate studios and went to more traditionalist kung fu schools is because some guy tried to mug her as she came down the stairs, and she went into spar mode. She hit the guy two or three times... but pulled at the last minute. He tried to grab her and drag her down, but that's when she readjusted and elbowed him hard in the face a few times before running away and calling the cops. But you always hear stories of this. I experienced it a bit myself after I stopped going to a mainstream karate dojo that I had been at for years. I really had to get over the reflex to just... not punch with full force. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted November 22, 2008 Gold, Your dads friend maybe strong and have a death grip but when it comes to fighting its that 1st REAL punch that lands and then the barage of strikes afterwards that will dictate is your 70pound death grip will win. In a fight anything can happen evry quickly without you thinking it could happen!!! have a good day.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 23, 2008 (edited) He didn't do any chi kung because chi kung makes your muscles soft and he wanted to have hard muscles so he would look good for the movies. Why does chi kung make your muscles soft if you don't mind me asking? I'm only referring to soft chi kung, the kind you do for health, not the kind of chi kung where they try to bust a blood vessel. I'm not sure why soft chi kung makes your muscles softer. Edited October 19, 2009 by Starjumper7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spirit Ape Posted November 23, 2008 Starjumper, There is hard and soft chi kung though both different theores one starting the other way around. Tension is good for the bones from the muscle squeezing similar to weight lifting and pumps the heart, i think one should understand both extremes for health, healing or spiritual work. Ape Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 23, 2008 There is hard and soft chi kung though both different theores one starting the other way around. Tension is good for the bones from the muscle squeezing similar to weight lifting and pumps the heart, i think one should understand both extremes for health, healing or spiritual work. That makes sense that tension exercises will make your bones stronger, but does it also make your muscles harder? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 23, 2008 (edited) Do you know who his teachers were in Seattle? Yes, and one of his main ones, who is in his nineties now, is still teaching. Are any of their students still teaching in the area? Yes, and I'm one of them. Edited October 19, 2009 by Starjumper7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 24, 2008 (edited) Edited October 19, 2009 by Starjumper7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuen Biao Posted November 24, 2008 You are not the first to describe my work as "sensational"--thanks a bunch! If I had a dollar for every one who would destroy Bruce Lee (the man) to create Bruce Lee (the legend), I could afford to buy a tabloid! Sorry but I find it sensational and innaccurate, no offence! Regarding your analogy of the dollar comment, unfortunately I couldn't say the same for those who criticise Lee as there are not many who have or do so! There's a reason that people only now see fit to comment on Lee, during his lifetime Joe Lewis for one certainly did not have the guts to criticise Lee. Lewis is so inconsistent though, at times he is glowing of his praise for Lee and others very arrogant in his criticism; one things for sure though is that he too has jumped on the bandwagon with his recent book which cashes in on his experience with Lee and his understanding of JKD, personally I find that hypocritical in the extreme! Mike Stone told the same story as Joe Lewis--off-camera of course--I just can't find a copy of the relevant printed interview. Mike Stone has also said many positive things about Lee, Bob Wall too, who probably has more credentials than Norris, Lewis or Stone. If one were to compile a list of those who earn their living off their affiliation with Bruce Lee, and another list of people who tell tall tales about Bruce Lee, one would expect to find a striking correlation. For the record, my name is not on either list. Like I said, its funny how they do this after Lee's passing which speaks volumes to me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer64 Posted November 24, 2008 " I think you're on to something here. I studied Wing Chun in Baltimore. My teacher's teacher was William Cheung. Cheung visited us from time to time and I was usually his driver (not many of my classmates had cars). A a result I got to spend a fair amount of time with him. He was good friends with Bruce as kids and told me that he was the one that introduced Bruce to Yip Man and managed to get him accepted into the school. He described Bruce as being a very quick learner but much more interested in a career in movies than in fighting. Cheung said that Bruce was not as good a fighter as he was assumed to be in the US. He only learned a relatively small part of the Wing Chun curriculum before being asked to leave the school because of problems with other students. At least that's what Cheung told me (as best I can recall - it was about 20 years ago). Soon after, he came to the US, studied other arts and synthesized all of that into JKD. When you look at his history, though, it seems to me that acting was always his great love since childhood and was probably the inspiration for his martial arts training and dedication." Hi again- There seems to be a bit of confussion in this... First- Grand Master William Chung was how I always knew him- (no e in the name)...his son remains a good frind, but I no longer study with the system-Its an all or nothing situation -so I bowed-out.. Also GMC related how Lee was a student more "under his roof" than a childhood friend- Bill Chung grew up in NYC- the studies with Lee took place in Hong Kong in later years...that lee came from there to here is the same I heard - and for me this was also about 29 years ago in NJ... I have noted here on other posts that Gin Fu Mark was one of Chung's sifu s that I met in NYC's China town -back in the 80's, that was a guy who amazed me -I think he is still teaching and accepts non chinese now-which, as I remember, was not the case when I met him.. it is a great lineage that I am proud to have been a part of at one time... that I no longer claim anyone as my sifu is just a choice I made not a problem with the sifu I had... I'll try to ask GMC's son to clarify if anyone thinks its relivent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 24, 2008 " I think you're on to something here. I studied Wing Chun in Baltimore. My teacher's teacher was William Cheung. Cheung visited us from time to time and I was usually his driver (not many of my classmates had cars). A a result I got to spend a fair amount of time with him. He was good friends with Bruce as kids and told me that he was the one that introduced Bruce to Yip Man and managed to get him accepted into the school. He described Bruce as being a very quick learner but much more interested in a career in movies than in fighting. Cheung said that Bruce was not as good a fighter as he was assumed to be in the US. He only learned a relatively small part of the Wing Chun curriculum before being asked to leave the school because of problems with other students. At least that's what Cheung told me (as best I can recall - it was about 20 years ago). Soon after, he came to the US, studied other arts and synthesized all of that into JKD. When you look at his history, though, it seems to me that acting was always his great love since childhood and was probably the inspiration for his martial arts training and dedication." Hi again- There seems to be a bit of confussion in this... First- Grand Master William Chung was how I always knew him- (no e in the name)...his son remains a good frind, but I no longer study with the system-Its an all or nothing situation -so I bowed-out.. Also GMC related how Lee was a student more "under his roof" than a childhood friend- Bill Chung grew up in NYC- the studies with Lee took place in Hong Kong in later years...that lee came from there to here is the same I heard - and for me this was also about 29 years ago in NJ... I have noted here on other posts that Gin Fu Mark was one of Chung's sifu s that I met in NYC's China town -back in the 80's, that was a guy who amazed me -I think he is still teaching and accepts non chinese now-which, as I remember, was not the case when I met him.. it is a great lineage that I am proud to have been a part of at one time... that I no longer claim anyone as my sifu is just a choice I made not a problem with the sifu I had... I'll try to ask GMC's son to clarify if anyone thinks its relivent. You may be referring to a different person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cheung http://www.cheungswingchun.com/ William Cheung has always spelled his name with an "e" and told me personally that he and Bruce were close childhood friends. I can't speak to the veracity of his statement, just the fact that he said it. To my knowledge he's never lived in the states and I've never heard anyone call him Bill. I always called him Sigung as did the other people with us the few times we were together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted November 24, 2008 (edited) Edited November 24, 2008 by vortex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 24, 2008 Needless to say I learned humility in about 5 seconds. He not only stopped me cold, but tied me up in such a way that he could hit me at will and the only thing I could do about it was... nothing. Later I reviewed all my previous skills, including boxing and threw all of it out as it was impractical against Bruce's skills. This is exactly the kind of thing we learn in Yueng Chuan. You try to punch and you get all locked up, at which point you are shown all the opportunities at their disposal that will kill you or break your bones. More later, got to work ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted November 25, 2008 (edited) Precisely why this man is the real deal: Thanks, I enjoyed watching that, and I watched some other you tube videos of JKD. Edited October 19, 2009 by Starjumper7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
