clubbells

[GrandTrinity]

I got my clubbels and now I am hooked on balancing my vast studies of soft chi kung with this harder stuff, kettles too...

 

True, in real life you dont use circular movements. It seems. But everything is circular on a metaphysical level...at least it should be!

 

I find that all this hard style really brings my meditation to a new level, esp. with standing! And of course the body flow routines do wonders for the chi and heaven earth integration, although Sonnon does not call it this in these words.

 

Trunk's comment about working alone:

"It just doesn't compare with working with a teacher (who is from an effective lineage) consistently."

 

I would say yeah thats true. A lot of progress can be made, these days with books and videos, but "working with a teacher (who is from an effective lineage) consistently." seems clearly, to be superior, perhaps, I sapose.

 

Now, I'm waiting for the day when we can all do that.

 

But on the other hand, perhaps there is "a teacher (who is from an effective lineage)" in our deep center, who we can learn to access increasingly with exponential growth through life and art, peace studies, on all dimensions--integrating philosophy/science/religion.

 

Now it just occurs to me that tai chi, using a very heavy sword or "saber" perhaps is similar to clubbel training while at the same time integrating the heaven/earth axis explicitly?

 

But who cares? When the "dragons" of these kettleball and clubbel training give us more chi. Or perhaps they dont? Or perhaps its a balance, so we should learn both and integrate. Perhaps we can see a future system which integrates all of this, or is the Western Mind having no need for terms like jing chi shen. Certaintly we have a parallel--the holy trinity--but who can grasp the signifigance of that one? Very few today.

[neimad]

I was playing with my clubells over the weekend and they are fun. But  still agree with Matt Furey that for overall functional conditioning nothing comes close to bodyweight stuff. That said, doing hundreds of squats, pushups, pullups etc is too damn hard for most so if swinging a kettlebell or clubells motivates you great.

 

I don't see the Clubell as having as much usefulness as the kettlebell, however. Kettlebell swings and snatches to work the hips in a unique way bodyweight stuff doesn't. Not that it is really that important I don't think it is but it's still unique. Clubbells basically are for fun. I don't see any super unique carryover. The circular strength concept is interesting but frankly when do you use 'circular strength in real life? Bodyweight excericeses are what you do in real life. Kettlebell swings and snatches are awesome if your a MMA fighter but it's also not something you use much in real life. You dont' snatch your groceries and no 'circular strenght is required to walk down the street or up a flight of stairs.

 

Just my 2.

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yeah it seems like clubbells would be pretty damn fun, which is why i have been pondering so much on getting a pair.... despite the damn price (almost twice as expensive to buy them here in oz than it is over there!).

i also get the feeling they may be helpful in rehabilitation of weakened joints. i have a poor hip, knees and my shoulders aint too great either.

body-weight exercises are awesome, but also i find can get a bit stressful on the joints.

i'm still unsure of whether to fork out the cash for them or not.....

 

you make a good point that what do we need circular strength for, unless training for a particular competitive field..... but then again our ancestors would have utilised such training in their day to day lives, whether it be with a club for hunting and fighting, a hoe for hoeing a field, etc.

 

oh well... still need to think some more.

[sean]

Trunk, awesome post! I am basically ignorant of any experience in CMA and I don't understand the heaven-earth-man integration concept well enough to determine wether a system contains it. My intuition (and also probably some American rebelliousness) generally has me skeptical of the idea of the idea that I need to find an "Asian master" with a lineage and train w/ him for years to uncover anything I can't basically figure out myself with trail and error and study. But what do I know? I am just a baby with all this stuff. It's probably a matter of efficiency. You can learn to paint by going to the store and buying a bunch of paint and just exploring. Could be fun. You could stumble across some interesting things. But you are probably not going to paint professionally until you work under a master painter. Movement sophistication is likely no different. There, I've come full circle as usual. Heh.

 

...

 

Cam and GrandTrinity ... it's odd to hear you guys saying circular movement is not applicable to the real world. I find it way more applicable than "linear" training. Especially in extreme sports, martial arts, acrobatics, dance, etc.. In acrobatics CST helps me to develop the strength to recover from falls in odd directions. I've trained with clubbells in so many directions that I've built not only static strength but the ability to recover from sharp ballistic movement occurring in unique directions. Super relevant. Way more than arm curls. In BJJ how often are you doing a straight clean bench press of your oponent (or a handstand on him)? In baseball how often are you deadlifting the bat? Etc. etc. IMO, nearly all of our movement is non-linear, which is why it's especially important to train for strength in all directions when you are participating in your extreme sport of choice.

 

 

Sean.

[Cameron]

Intersting points Sean. You have spent way more time on Scott's material than me so I don't have much of a disagreement. There must be something to the idea of clubbells/circular strength training being applicable to combat sports since quite a few MMA fighters including current heavyweight UFC champ Andre Arlovski trains that way I heard.

 

I guess the issue is my time is limted and do I want to spend 30 minutes doing bodyweight stuff, kettlebells, or Clubbells or Body Flow etc. If I was a professional athlete I could spend all day playing with these things but it's really more about just losing weight and getting some functionals strength at this point. but I will try to keep an open mind about it and explore those clubs and other Sonnon stuff when I have the time.

[GrandTrinity]

I didnt mean to say we dont use circular movements. That is the ideal! That is infinite! Anything circular!

 

So, perhaps Scott is saying that is chi, circles, of course!

 

And then he says fear. He starts having a dude pimp smack him like 5 times per second, hard and he accepts the force as he calls it, or, "fear" that is a simple term.

 

Something circular, like the Indian summer.

 

Fearlessness=Chi=Heart

I think Scott would agree with that?

 

Circular movements are the cornerstone of internal martial arts, so is balance of the hard and soft. Bagua (Pa kua) Zhang and tai chi, and I assume Ching I and I try to do this, too, it feels very good to move like a dragon. This is the champions way, even the feds use it! Its hard to find the time/money but you know what? $200 for those clubs is slightly high. I might try to make my own, it couldnt be too hard at all? Bolt some weight (some kind of brick?) on a peice of metal tube and you have a clubbel! Not as cool looking or safe as the real deal, but it would be do-able if wrapped with some padding, perhaps too, to be safer.

 

I have been practicng with my 10s for 3 days and already I am bored a bit, desiring a higher weight. I like to make progress experiment with them though, and its great! Making up chi kung for use with the thingies--even tried some body flow zone skills holding the tens! Gotta combine them skills!

 

I wonder if one could devise a system to attach a special water sack around the "bat" at my friends call it, have it hold water, to make it heavier or lighter...but then of course it would have to be balanceable... I crave more chi/managing of my fear reactivity, prana as hindus might call it, ruach for you jews, ki, mana, bio energy, tendons, whatever!

 

I feel bad for people who dont have clubbels.

[Tenguzake]

My intuition (and also probably some American rebelliousness) generally has me skeptical of the idea of the idea that I need to find an "Asian master" with a lineage and train w/ him for years to uncover anything I can't basically figure out myself with trail and error and study. But what do I know? I am just a baby with all this stuff. It's probably a matter of efficiency. You can learn to paint by going to the store and buying a bunch of paint and just exploring. Could be fun. You could stumble across some interesting things. But you are probably not going to paint professionally until you work under a master painter. Movement sophistication is likely no different. There, I've come full circle as usual.  Heh.

 

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I am very impressed with Warrior Wellness and what I've learned from the Maximology videos and intend to continue studying Coach Sonnon's material. This however, is the one place I feel that he is off track. Coach Sonnon and the Tribe's criticisms of traditional martial arts are too broad. They state that a person should be able to figure every thing out themselves and achieve a state of "mastery" without spending years at the feet of an instructor. I think that Coach Sonnon's methods probably can speed up the process of develpment of most martial artists. I don't think that most people can make it all up themselves using only his drills however. Or if they do, it will take them much longer than if they started with some base line of knowledge.

 

Martial arts that have long histories are accumulations of knowledge of many people over many generations in many environments and they provide shortcuts to principles that are effective and are not always obvious to the uninitiated. Trying to find these by experimentation, while probably a great exercise in creativity and analytical thought, is time consuming and inefficient. The arts with long historys allow us to stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before and to speed up our own development by taking the knowledge that has already been found and starting from there. To draw an analogy, it is like starting to climb a mountain from the half way point as opposed to starting from the bottom. Your journey will be shorter and easier if you start half way up.

 

My comments do not pertain to arts that require slavish imitation of the master with no tolernece for deviation, but to arts that are principal based that encourage the student to vary responses appropriatly while maintaining correct principles.

 

I've been studying martial arts for the last 20 years and have been teaching for the last 11. In my experience the average person needs to reduce bad posture, the amount of tension they carry, and the desire to do everything with upper body strength alone before they can learn anything. There are no doubt a few exceptional individuals who could figure this out on their own, however the majority need guidance just to take this first step. Also, I have learned a tremendous amount from studying on my own and deconstructing techniques and putting them back together different ways, but I wouldn't have made it nearly as far if I hadn't received the insights into movement sophistication that I have from my teachers.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Be Genki,

 

Tenguzake

[neimad]

I would say yeah thats true. A lot of progress can be made, these days with books and videos, but "working with a teacher (who is from an effective lineage) consistently." seems clearly, to be superior, perhaps, I sapose.

 

But on the other hand, perhaps there is "a teacher (who is from an effective lineage)" in our deep center, who we can learn to access increasingly with exponential growth through life and art, peace studies, on all dimensions--integrating philosophy/science/religion.

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effective lineage.... this is what my dad and other buddhists are always talking about. the need to be from a lineage...

i don't buy it.

what lineage was buddha from? none.

same with all the other initial masters.

so sometimes i feel too much stock is put on a teachers lineage. i would compare this to judging a person by the job he holds, or whatever other example. it is the quality of the teacher and what he/she has to share, not their lineage, which is important.

 

no doubt we have a teacher within, we all have the cabability to uncover whatever it is we need. we already know everything anyways... everything! we just forgot that we know.

 

sure i agree that having someone to guide you on your path, point you in the right direction, etc, is most valuable... yet perhaps sometimes i feel the emphasis on this neccessity is much too high.

the most important is consistancy and discipline in practicing what you may have picked up or learnt.

 

Fearlessness=Chi=Heart

I think Scott would agree with that?

 

I feel bad for people who dont have clubbels.

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i'm not sure if i would agree with that. i consider chi, especially the kind of chi taoists or martial artists are learning to work with, as being simply a particular form of the universal energy. it has been labelled as 'chi'.

i would consider that there are many forms of this energy, e.g. electricty, heat, light, sound, etc.

chi is just another form of the energy, yet i believe there are also other more subtle forms of this energy to be utilised by the human body.

 

for example. the toaists always talk about chi being stored in the lower tantien. this fits very well with what i am now being taught also. yet spend some time focusing on the heart chakra, or mind chakra.... the energy pouring in is the same, but inside the particular chakra it is different. the lower tan tien has a totally different energy stored within it than the heart or mind (third-eye). different functions and different uses.

 

perhaps a good analogy would be to consider electricty (universal force, what my teacher likes to call 'prana' and differentiates that from 'chi' which he considers to be just of the lower tan tien). electricty pours out of sockets in one form.... yet depending on the device hooked up to the socket, the electricty is changed in form and gives off a totally different kind of the same energy... e.g visuals, sound, heat, light, movement, etc.

 

i would consider fearlessness, the state scott is trying to obtain and you too and me too are trying to obtain, as actually enlightenment on earth (cos i believe to truly be 'enlightened' or whatever you want to call it, can no longer exist in this physical body... as long as we are on this planet, we are not enlightened. buddha's or teachers or whatever who come here, give up a part of their enlightenment in order to reside in this dimension).

total freedom from "fear-reactivity" i would also consider a state of surrender, a state of being with the tao, a state of natural flow.... hence the term 'body-flow'.

 

so you see, scott really is looking for the same things taoists, and myself, and any other person out there seeking more, is looking for.

he just uses 21st centuray concepts and science to explain and achieve it. just because esoteric terms are not used, does not limit the possible effectiveness of it.

 

again.... dedication and discipline.

 

however i believe meditation is a most important aspect of this search. learning to quiet the mind and begin to think faster than words is the second key (along with surrender, or freedom from fear-reactivity). for without that ability, how can you ever expect to communicate with your higher self?

 

but i would suggest that to truly surrender or rid yourself of fear, it goes beyond using only the physical (which is undoubtadely excellent in itself) but also ridding yourself of all the mental and emotional garbage you stored in your memories.

 

perhaps working with only the physical may achieve this, but perhaps there is also deeper stuff buried in the psyche that needs to be consciously accessed and released or surrendered or forgiven.

no one can forgive us but ourselves!

 

yeah i'm jealous, i want clubbells but they are so expensive here!

so GT, they are really worth it that much?

would you consider, now that you are bored with 10's already, that perhaps it may be an idea to start with 15's?

i'm not super strong.... but i am definately getting there!

[GrandTrinity]

Well I think building your own might be a good idea...they are way over priced!

 

Perhaps build some and buy some. I found a 20 lb kettle bell on ebay for like $60 including shipping, so that will be my higher weight for now as I delve into the Kettlebell scene with all their qigong like hardstyle workout. Certain tai chi internal masters who we respect a lot might advise against hard work. But like eveything, it has to be balanced, hard and soft, a very delicate balance...My body had done SO much softwork that it now starts to crave hardword to balance it out.

 

By the way, I always think of chi as being in the heart, while jing(earth) in the lower tan tien and shen in the upper centers(universal).

 

Chi can be earth or heaven, but the best chi is definetly the yuan chi, in the heart and kidneys--or something like that.

 

Scott's system restores yuan chi, to some great expent, for sure.

[neimad]

Well I think building your own might be a good idea...they are way over priced!

 

By the way, I always think of chi as being in the heart, while jing(earth) in the lower tan tien and shen in the upper centers(universal).

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yeah i might look at making my own... will ponder it for a while.

not so desiring working with kettlebells though, i have enough with bodyweight training already.... just like the look and sound of the clubbells.

 

as for chi, jing, shen... whatever.

they are just words.

 

my point was not to get caught up on the name of which energy goes where does what etc.... was just that different forms of the same energy tend to collect in different places and are used to achieve different functions.

also that freedom from fear reactivity is not really equivalent to energy (chi, whatever)... it is more a passive/active surrender of the natural flows and ebbs of energy.

these are just ideas anyways, that make a lot of sense to me.... but the reality of it is way more complex than we could possibly conceive of with these bulky, slow words running around in our head and the babbler (monkey mind) chattering away ceaselessly about any such crap.

 

that is all.

 

BYE NOW.

[GrandTrinity]

the tao that is spoken is no longer the eternal tao

 

[sean]

Haven't forgotten about you Trunk, just been busy. You can find some good Clubbell videos on the "Max's page" on this site for starters: http://www.clubbelltrainer.com/

 

Sean.

[el_tortugo]

Way too heavy!  Don't do it!

 

This ain't like regular weight-lifting, the amounts of weight that you might be good at with weight lifting would injure you through clubell like movements.  Totally different thing.  And injury at the level of joint takes a long time to heal.

 

Start way light, like 5 pounds.

Give it time, then move up slowly.

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the bowling ball i got is only about 5 to 10 lbs. which actually seems to light..... it is fun though to do the tea cups holding a bowling ball, quite challenging.

[el_tortugo]

here are some fun sites about homemade equiptment including clubbels

 

 

http://www.geocities.com/fightraining/klub.html

http://www.geocities.com/fightraining/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/ltgodfrey/lever.html

http://www.beastskills.com/equipment.htm

http://www.american-gymnast.com/tt/paralle.../guide_beg.html

http://circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewt...der=asc&start=0

http://circularstrengthmag.com/forum/viewt...p?p=14194#14194

 

 

yeah i might look at making my own... will ponder it for a while.

not so desiring working with kettlebells though, i have enough with bodyweight training already.... just like the look and sound of the clubbells.

 

as for chi, jing, shen... whatever.

they are just words.

 

my point was not to get caught up on the name of which energy goes where does what etc.... was just that different forms of the same energy tend to collect in different places and are used to achieve different functions.

also that freedom from fear reactivity is not really equivalent to energy (chi, whatever)... it is more a passive/active surrender of the natural flows and ebbs of energy.

these are just ideas anyways, that make a lot of sense to me.... but the reality of it is way more complex than we could possibly conceive of with these bulky, slow words running around in our head and the babbler (monkey mind) chattering away ceaselessly about any such crap.

 

that is all.

 

BYE NOW.

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[el_tortugo]

Bigsteel Iron Indian Clubs

 

http://bigsteel.iwarp.com/Equipment/Iron-Indian-Club.html

[8trigrammer]

This looks pretty neat:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nux8nu2Jaks

[Smile]

This looks pretty neat:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nux8nu2Jaks

Nice one, thanks. I use a simple dumbbell like the one below with no plates on one side.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Anyone currently using clubbells? Reports? Using with or instead of kettlebells?

[Gigi]

Anyone currently using clubbells? Reports? Using with or instead of kettlebells?

 

Hi,

 

they are two different things.

In my opinion they're complementary.

 

an interesting article by a kettlebells guy:

 

http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/clubbells.html

 

have an happy training!!!!!

[Aetherous]

I have used them a lot in the past. They are a fad...totally unnecessary. Although I like using them more than kettlebells. Whatever gets you working out is good.