clubbells

[neimad]

hello,

 

just pondering getting myself a pair of 10lb clubbells (to begin with).

just wondering who else on this forum uses them to train with and whether they are worth the costly price? to me it seems like they would be very well worth it, but would like some opinions first.

 

thanks for anything shared.

[sean]

I don't really talk about Clubell training much here, I guess because for some reason I've unconsciously felt it's not as related to Taoist cultivation as some of Sonnon's other work. But I do have a set of 10's and a set of 15's and I honestly love them and work with them often. Scott designed a custom Clubell program for me that's basically skyrocketed my handstand progress.

 

I'm actually not really one for training with weights, more into bodyweight and flexibility work, but when I first held my clubbells in my hand, something seriously clicked. They are just really beautiful pieces of equipment and very fun (albeit at times grueling when need be) to work with. I think when you see them you'll know where the money went because they are finely crafted and I do think they're very much worth the money. You'll need to pick up the DVD as well. I didn't get much out of the book that's not presented more clearly on the DVD, but it's probably because I've been too lazy to do anything other than skim through it so far. Oh I also have the two handed clubbell DVD which is bad ass and I'll likely pick up the Catch-22 DVD soon as I've only heard good things.

 

Anyway, I hope this doesn't reduce the credibility of my review, but if you do decide to order clubells (or anything from Rmax really), don't hesitate to use this convenient link. It throws a couple pennies to your friendly neighborhood Tao Bums webmaster.

 

 

Sean.

[neimad]

Anyway, I hope this doesn't reduce the credibility of my review, but if you do decide to order clubells (or anything from Rmax really), don't hesitate to use this convenient link.  It throws a couple pennies to your friendly neighborhood Tao Bums webmaster.

Sean.

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thanks for your review.

i can see how fun they would be and also how effective they would be for training.

i just threw it out here on this forum cos i knew there would be a couple of people on here who use them and i wanted an unbiased opinion (hence not on rmax forum).

are the 10's challenging enough to begin with? i'm not super strong, but i aint super weak either (thank you isometric workouts... 10 minutes a day to fantastic tendon and muscle strength! i think iso's and clubbells, which i will incorporate into my jungleman workouts, will complement each other greatly in development). i only have really enough cash to get one set, and i read that 10's are recommended to start with.

generally i am a very good reader and i wasn't sure whether to get the dvd or the book, but if you think the dvd is that much better, i'll just go with that.

 

i would love to go through your link to order the stuff, but im in australia so clubbells i will have to order through australian affiliate... and the dvd (or book) i will order from amazon because they are much cheaper with shipping than rmax and also cheaper overall than ordering from australian affiliate too!

 

thanks again for your reply.

 

p.s. i do think clubbells can in some way be considered taoist cultivation, because one of the elements of cultivation is working on perfecting the physical body...... no?

anyways i aint really following a typical taoist path anymore anyways, meaning i aint doing any taoist meditations or alchemy or any other such stuff.... i am doing other things, which i have found way more potent. but anyways, it's all ultimately the same i guess.

[el_tortugo]

I don't really talk about Clubell training much here, I guess because for some reason I've unconsciously felt it's not as related to Taoist cultivation as some of Sonnon's other work. But I do have a set of 10's and a set of 15's and I honestly love them and work with them often. Scott designed a custom Clubell program for me that's basically skyrocketed my handstand progress.

 

I'm actually not really one for training with weights, more into bodyweight and flexibility work, but when I first held my clubbells in my hand, something seriously clicked. They are just really beautiful pieces of equipment and very fun (albeit at times grueling when need be) to work with. I think when you see them you'll know where the money went because they are finely crafted and I do think they're very much worth the money. You'll need to pick up the DVD as well. I didn't get much out of the book that's not presented more clearly on the DVD, but it's probably because I've been too lazy to do anything other than skim through it so far.    Oh I also have the two handed clubbell DVD which is bad ass and I'll likely pick up the Catch-22 DVD soon as I've only heard good things.

 

Anyway, I hope this doesn't reduce the credibility of my review, but if you do decide to order clubells (or anything from Rmax really), don't hesitate to use this convenient link.  It throws a couple pennies to your friendly neighborhood Tao Bums webmaster.

Sean.

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good to know about that link....too bad i didn't know earlier.

 

also sean, i am interested in getting clubbells but would like to go thru some of the exerscises first either using a sledge hammer or even just a bat..... do you know of any good links with some sample exercises to try out how the movement feels and all?

[RON JEREMY]

good to know about that link....too bad i didn't know earlier.

 

also sean, i am interested in getting clubbells but would like to go thru some of the exerscises first either using a sledge hammer or even just a bat..... do you know of any good links with some sample exercises to try out how the movement feels and all?

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WHAT REALY CLUBBELS BE, SUM PEOPLE LIKE SHIEKKY USE EM AS ANAL PROBES,

BUT AVCTUALY, THEY BE DERRIVED FROM TRADDITIONAL KUNG FU TOOLS, FOR EXEMPLE, WHEN ME WAS SMALL, ME STUDDIED GOJU RYU KARRATE WHICH BE DA COOLEST KARRATE SCHOOL OUT THERE, N THEY USE A TOOL WHICH BASISCLY BE A FLAT ROUND CILLINDER O STONE WITH A HOWL IN-DA-MIDLE WHERE YA STICK A STICK, OR RATTHER, YA SCREW A STICK IN THERE, THEN YA GRAB DA OPISITE END O DA STICK N USE THAT OFF-BALLINCE WEIGHT TO STRENGHTEN YER WRISTS N FORREARMS. DA EASIER WAY TO MEKE IT YERSELF BE TO USE CUM-CRETE .

IT BE CALLED CHISHI N YA CAN SEE IT HERE

 

 

RJ

[Lozen]

that link's not working--is it just my computer?

[sean]

neimad: Hey, you know I just realized, I wrote that message at like 5am and completely spaced something ... I have 5's and 10's, not 10's and 15's. I initially got the 5's for Leslie but quickly found that they were actually a really cool weight to learn some of the more complex moves with, without fear of hurting myself. I think unless you workout regularly with weight's that the 10's are a good place to start.

 

Also, please elaborate on "i am doing other things, which i have found way more potent.", you've got me curious!

 

alchemycal_monkey: I think maybe if you search around the Rmax forum you may find some example Clubell moves that you could try out. In fact, search for the user maxmoon, than click on his profile and click "Show all user's posts" and you will definitely find some cool clips.

 

RON JEREMY: Hey, pretty cool Ron. Never heard of that before. I think Clubbells are claims to be derived from the Indian Karela's, see this page for reference. Actually alchemycal_monkey, I just found that page through google and it gives an overview at the bottom of some basic Clubbell swings.

 

Lozen: No, it was me trying to compose a coherent post after staying up until 5 in the morning. Good eye, thanks for catching that.

[el_tortugo]

WHAT REALY CLUBBELS BE, SUM PEOPLE LIKE SHIEKKY USE EM AS ANAL PROBES,

BUT AVCTUALY, THEY BE DERRIVED FROM TRADDITIONAL KUNG FU TOOLS, FOR EXEMPLE, WHEN ME WAS SMALL, ME STUDDIED GOJU RYU KARRATE WHICH BE DA COOLEST KARRATE SCHOOL OUT THERE, N THEY USE A TOOL WHICH BASISCLY BE A FLAT ROUND CILLINDER O STONE WITH A HOWL IN-DA-MIDLE WHERE YA STICK A STICK, OR RATTHER, YA SCREW A STICK IN THERE, THEN YA GRAB DA OPISITE END O DA STICK N USE THAT OFF-BALLINCE WEIGHT TO STRENGHTEN YER WRISTS N FORREARMS. DA EASIER WAY TO MEKE IT YERSELF BE TO USE CUM-CRETE .

IT BE CALLED CHISHI N YA CAN SEE IT HERE

 

 

RJ

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now that is a beautiful thing..... something more like I would be swinging around....

 

heres some more links... tools for tanren... check out the clips.

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/index.html

 

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/003/

 

those look like those things the hindus swing around.

[GrandTrinity]

Yeah I ordered my pair of 10s today...took the plundge. Also got dvd, book and carde curriculum.

 

I wonder if that regular dvd covers pairs or if I need the pair dvd to use my two 10s?

[Trunk]

I don't really talk about Clubell training much here, I guess because for some reason I've unconsciously felt it's not as related to Taoist cultivation as some of Sonnon's other work.

6100[/snapback]

 

Seems to me that Sonnon's work, including clubells, works on the joints and fascia. Clubells (though I haven't tried them, I suppose) through the swinging do work the joints and fascia, opening as well as strengthening.

 

Taoist work also works the joints and fascia. Jing, or nourishment, or whatever stuff, goes through the layers of fascia~tendon~ligment~bone. The thing with Taoist work, that Sonnon doesn't do, is do it through exercises that integrate heaven~man~earth, so that those layers mentioned get heaven~earth integration. This is a large part of what makes the Taoist internal martial arts so powerful.

 

I've been thinking about getting clubells, as I've started swimming a lot and want to keep my shoulders loose. If any of you find links to clubell video clips, please post them!

 

Trunk

 

--- edit later in the day ---

I went and bought a simple 10 lb dumbell at the sporting goods store. Since my interest is really simple right now (very gently stretch my shoulder joints), I think dumbells can do it. I found that 10 lbs is even on the hefty side for me, beginning, with this small goal. Turns out my housemate had a 5 and an 8 lb, and they worked great. Nice. (Spending $20 instead of $200.)

[neimad]

neimad:

Also, please elaborate on "i am doing other things, which i have found way more potent.", you've got me curious! 

 

this: http://www.higherbalance.com/

 

likely to be met with scepticism and/or ridicule... but i find it very effective and enjoyable. there are more learning modules than mentioned on this page, but they are for people who are already using the initial material.

 

i find it a lot less complex than the HT system. and rather than going internally into your own mini-universe within your body like the HT, we are building up spiritual/energy bodies to travel externally into the universe that we inhabit.

 

 

i had one more question....

does the clubbell dvd (the first one) cover working with pairs, or only a single clubbell?

i.e. should i be getting two, or just one, to begin with?

 

thanks.

[GrandTrinity]

[sean]

neimad, yes the main clubbell DVD covers working in pairs. It's all you'll need to start. This confused me too and was originally why I bought the two-handed DVD along with my package since I was buying two clubbells and thought I needed it. But in actuality the two-handed clubbell DVD covers moves where you are holding one clubbell with both hands. Pretty interesting. Really works out some primal issues considering wielding a club with two hands is probably one of the very first weapons early primitive man ever wielded.

 

You should probably get two clubbells at once.

 

Trunk, been super busy but I'll throw up some good clubbell clips soon.

[Trunk]

I agree Sonnon does not really talk about the heaven/earth/man trinity, although he instead calls this ... terms like freedom from fear reacticvity

"Freedom from fear reactivity" is cool, and working the fascia like he does is bound to do some very significant and effective emotional clearing, and improvement in health and chi flow. But that is not heaven~earth integration. Its not that he's calling heaven~earth integration something else; its that heaven~earth integration isn't in his system. And its not even about talking about it or not: Its about whether the structure of the exercises promote heaven~man~earth integration, and they don't. He doesn't have the knowlegde about practices (movements, postures, attention) that integrate those forces through the human tissues. And I'm not knocking Sonnon's work, he is really onto some great stuff. He's just not a tai chi master nor a xing yi master.

[neimad]

two last questions....

 

to what extent does the first clubbell dvd show how to work the legs?

 

and would you reccomend getting the book as well as the dvd, or the dvd is enough?

 

cheers.

[el_tortugo]

Seems to me that Sonnon's work, including clubells, works on the joints and fascia.  Clubells (though I haven't tried them, I suppose) through the swinging do work the joints and fascia, opening as well as strengthening.

 

Taoist work also works the joints and fascia.  Jing, or nourishment, or whatever stuff, goes through the layers of fascia~tendon~ligment~bone.  The thing with Taoist work, that Sonnon doesn't do, is do it through exercises that integrate heaven~man~earth, so that those layers mentioned get heaven~earth integration.  This is a large part of what makes the Taoist internal martial arts so powerful.

 

I've been thinking about getting clubells, as I've started swimming a lot and want to keep my shoulders loose.  If any of you find links to clubell video clips, please post them!

 

Trunk

 

--- edit later in the day ---

I went and bought a simple 10 lb dumbell at the sporting goods store.  Since my interest is really simple right now (very gently stretch my shoulder joints), I think dumbells can do it.  I found that 10 lbs is even on the hefty side for me, beginning, with this small goal.  Turns out my housemate had a 5 and an 8 lb, and they worked great.  Nice.  (Spending $20 instead of $200.)

6143[/snapback]

 

 

i was thinking of trying a bowling ball in a bag to sub kettle bells.

 

 

"Freedom from fear reactivity" is cool, and working the fascia like he does is bound to do some very significant and effective emotional clearing, and improvement in health and chi flow.  But that is not heaven~earth integration.  Its not that he's calling heaven~earth integration something else; its that heaven~earth integration isn't in his system.  And its not even about talking about it or not: Its about whether the structure of the exercises promote heaven~man~earth integration, and they don't.  He doesn't have the knowlegde about practices (movements, postures, attention) that integrate those forces through the human tissues.  And I'm not knocking Sonnon's work, he is really onto some great stuff.  He's just not a tai chi master nor a xing yi master.

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amen!

[GrandTrinity]

Lord Vishnu With a Clubbel!

 

That is a very interesting concept that Sonnon is not into the heaven/earth integration. Getting into more yoga with Prasara, however, he will have to come around, some time?? I dont know. Clearly he is not a tai chi master but I assumed he WAS a serious student of tai chi at some point in his life, although obviously he did not really embrace the concept of chi! Or did he?

 

I wonder what it will look like when these two schools come together? Or if it is possible at all? It seems to me that they are destined to integrate, you?

 

In what way are they not already integrated? Other than words, of course?

 

Physicaly, I find that body flow is very taxing on the knees! I sapose that is one way!

 

Anyway, comepletely different paradigms we are talking about here, in every way!

I used to watch this dude on TV (what I now refer to as the "idiot box" to my friends and family) when I was little...they circular strength train with that club, maybe. Vishnu is cooler though.

[sean]

to what extent does the first clubbell dvd show how to work the legs?

 

and would you reccomend getting the book as well as the dvd, or the dvd is enough?

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Well the legs naturally get a very thorough workout because of the squatting motion in almost all of the swings. In fact often times my legs are more sore than my arms and chest after a gruesome clubbell session.

 

I think the DVD is probably enough. But like I said, I kind of just skimmed the book. hmmm... I wonder why though, since I've really really enjoyed the other books by Sonnon. I think I will go back and give the Clubbell book a good read. Anyway, you can get going just fine with only the DVD.

 

Oh yeah, one thing that the book does have that I just remembered is a breakdown on how to create different routines and cycles with clubbell exercises which could be useful but I haven't really referred to it yet.

 

Sean.

[sean]

"Freedom from fear reactivity" is cool, and working the fascia like he does is bound to do some very significant and effective emotional clearing, and improvement in health and chi flow.  But that is not heaven~earth integration.  Its not that he's calling heaven~earth integration something else; its that heaven~earth integration isn't in his system.  And its not even about talking about it or not: Its about whether the structure of the exercises promote heaven~man~earth integration, and they don't.  He doesn't have the knowlegde about practices (movements, postures, attention) that integrate those forces through the human tissues.  And I'm not knocking Sonnon's work, he is really onto some great stuff.  He's just not a tai chi master nor a xing yi master.

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Thought provoking statements Trunk. I'm always curious how all this work connects. Sonnon's whole thing seems to be about moving past "ancient technique" and getting into something that flows from, I guess ultimately what you could call your True Self, Higher Self, God, Tao, etc. Please elaborate more on your critique here, it's intriguing. What is heaven and earth? Is it "up" and "down"? Is it "head and torso" and "hips, legs, feet"? Is it shen and jing? And what is "integrate"? Does integrate require a memorized sequence that visually mimics or parodies heaven and earth integration (ie: sun salutation) or is it possible heaven-man-earth integration occurs almost in spite of form, ie: spontaneously within the "emptiness" of being in a flow state, regardless of wether it appears to integrate heaven-man-earth compared to classical yogic/taoist/tibetan imagery of postures, forms, etc.

[el_tortugo]

That is a very interesting concept that Sonnon is not into the heaven/earth integration. Getting into more yoga with Prasara, however, he will have to come around, some time?? I dont know. Clearly he is not a tai chi master but I assumed he WAS a serious student of tai chi at some point in his life, although obviously he did not really embrace the concept of chi! Or did he?

 

I wonder what it will look like when these two schools come together? Or if it is possible at all? It seems to me that they are destined to integrate, you?

 

In what way are they not already integrated? Other than words, of course?

 

 

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I have been quite amazed at the similarity between what tai chi I am learning and the articles and exercises I read on rmax....

 

I personaly focus on my live teacher here in real time everday life and suplement when I have time with the rmax stuff.... I prefer Taoist Exercise, meditation, terminology and all that ..... so I havent tried to figure out what exactly Sonnon is teaching... I just read and do his exercises and learn what he has to share.

 

also what is cool about rmax is that so many people contribute and they have different backgrounds and practices that they are coming from..... and yeah.... he must be familiar with chi or what ever by the looks of what he does and his new yoga dvd.... I suspect he is at least open to it yet keeps his forum purely scientific to keep it open to all so people can bring and take what they want.

[Trunk]

Thought provoking statements Trunk. I'm always curious how all this work connects. ... Please elaborate more on your critique here, it's intriguing. What is heaven and earth? ... And what is "integrate"?

 

The most basic ?'s are always the toughest.

There is something about up and down .. that the earth has a "gravity", a heaviness, a force and subtle substance, that can both sink and rise. And that there is some lighter subtle substance above, "heaven", and it has a "gravity" that rises, and it can also sink or rise. There are subtle rivers that go up and down that have to do with the earth and the energies above the earth. You can start to feel these when you do standing meditations.

 

The internal martial arts work with the body very specifically to integrate these forces ("heaven" and "earth") through the tissues, layers, of the body. Through fascia, tendon, ligament, bones. Getting the heaven-earth flows working through, all the way through, these layers is what I mean by "integrating heaven~earth with the human body". This is done through specific systems of movement, and the movements have rules, structure. Some sorts of movement will get this to happen, others will not.

 

Scotts work is really progressive, ground breaking, impressive and important. He's opening up the fascia, which is important and often difficult. He's doing it in innovative ways. And his work would likely be good for a person's chi flow. But the heaven~earth integration is simply not part of his system.

 

Really effective work at this (heaven~man~earth), you're not going to get from a video nor website, nor written text, nor a weekend workshop. Gotta study consistently (like, once a week or more) in person with a good teacher over a long period of time.

 

Does integrate require a memorized sequence that  visually mimics or parodies heaven and earth integration (ie: sun salutation) or is it possible heaven-man-earth integration occurs almost in spite of form,

 

Its not in the hatha-yoga type systems, and it does require specific form. The internal martial arts do it to a level that is effective martially. I don't say that to encourage anyone hurting each other, but it is a very real, tangible, effective test. It gets done without injury through benevolent push-hands work, and similar. No one gets hurt.

 

Trunk

 

--- (edit later on) ---

Its not that a person can't feel, develope, any heaven~earth integration on your own. Various of us can and do. Standing postures, various movement, etc. It just doesn't compare with working with a teacher (who is from an effective lineage) consistently.

[Trunk]

i was thinking of trying a bowling ball in a bag to sub kettle bells.

 

Way too heavy! Don't do it!

 

This ain't like regular weight-lifting, the amounts of weight that you might be good at with weight lifting would injure you through clubell like movements. Totally different thing. And injury at the level of joint takes a long time to heal.

 

Start way light, like 5 pounds.

Give it time, then move up slowly.

[Yoda]

Trunk,

 

kickin' post!!

 

I always liked the MA focus as it's very rubber-meets-the-road, but there's too much fighty baggage that goes with the territory. I think learning to heal oneself and others has the same tangibility without the clogged up defensiveness and cumpetition.

 

More posts like that would be great!

 

-Yoda

[monucka]

The most basic ?'s are always the toughest.

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Awesome post, Trunk. I'd love to see more stuff like that as well, if only cuz' it validates my experiences. <grin>.

[Cameron]

I was playing with my clubells over the weekend and they are fun. But still agree with Matt Furey that for overall functional conditioning nothing comes close to bodyweight stuff. That said, doing hundreds of squats, pushups, pullups etc is too damn hard for most so if swinging a kettlebell or clubells motivates you great.

 

I don't see the Clubell as having as much usefulness as the kettlebell, however. Kettlebell swings and snatches to work the hips in a unique way bodyweight stuff doesn't. Not that it is really that important I don't think it is but it's still unique. Clubbells basically are for fun. I don't see any super unique carryover. The circular strength concept is interesting but frankly when do you use 'circular strength in real life? Bodyweight excericeses are what you do in real life. Kettlebell swings and snatches are awesome if your a MMA fighter but it's also not something you use much in real life. You dont' snatch your groceries and no 'circular strenght is required to walk down the street or up a flight of stairs.

 

Just my 2.