A sect of Taoism that Brings Fortune to all

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[fiveelementtao]

Taoism was formed long time ago before LaoZi, we can now still trace back to the time when the first king of China was chosen in China. His name is Hin Yuen Wong Di, 軒轅皇帝. He have invented a form of Medic call Taoism Medic, which is called "Juk Yau Foh" in Chinese　祝由科.

 

This is a branch of Taoism passed on and got highly promoted by all the kingdoms and dynasties in China for curing weird illness and rare decease or mental problems. This form of Taoism Medic is a branch that was used with the Han's Dynasty Medic (Chinese medic you can learn nowadays about herbs). Since the Sun Nung, 神農 have invented herbal medicine in China long time ago, the king Wong Di have been worried that most of the poor people could not get the herbs required all the time because they could not afford to buy them or get someone to get the herbs for them. Therefore, he invented a form of medic that uses the Taoism "fu" (taolisman) and transform universal energy to cure illness for the civilization.

 

This form of Taoism Medic could now still be learned in Taoism and it have been a great contribution to Taoism. If one want to know more about Taoism, they shall all take a look at this great invention in Taoism which is more advance and takes long time to train. This form of Taoism Medic is organic and very effecient. If you are very sick and tired of eating pills and avid, this might be something you might want to learn or try because it does not have side effect and it is very organic.

 

Some may think it is superstitious, but if so, why don't you learn it and study it before saying something so naive. This form of taoism have been passed on from long time ago and it have saved many lives. We shall all respect the first king of China Wong Di for his great contribution of Taoism. Which also prooved that LaoZi is not the initial founder of Taoism. There are much more people was before the first king of China who got into Taoism study already. Wong Di's taoism knowledge are from the immortal of Gau Tin Yuen Nui 九天玄女, so there could be much more immortals way before LaoZi.

 

In my own experience of using Taoism Medic, it is very efficient and organic. It is even more effective than the western medicine because I have got a patient who got into a car accident. His organs were all harmed by the shocking of the car, which the western doctors could not tell, but the chinese doctors already knew that there are internal bleeding. The patient could smell blood from his own breathe, and the patient was very weak and ill after the accident. So what I do was used Taoism Medic by using FU (the taolisman) 符 and combine it with herbal medicine to cure this problem. After 3 treatments, the patient's internal bleeding was totally cured, there were no more blood smell in his breathe and his was running around happily after the last treatment.

 

Aside from the internal bleeding probem, his also have mental problems because many people have some phycological problem after car accident. They become very worried or scared when they drive again. Some also dream of the accident alot. With my Taoism knowledge, this is due to the shocking that harm the patient's Wun Pak 魂魄 the souls. Therefore, there are always bad dreams and nightmares. So what I did was used the Fu again (taoliman) and cured the problem. In 3 days, the problem was all gone and the patient does not have this problem anymore after 3 days, everything became normal. While I heard from another doctor, he said that most people will get mental problems for a long period after a big accident, here this patient was cured in 3days. how magical!!

 

Here I state that one who want to learn Taoism shall also take a look at these Taoism Medic to know more about why Taoism is so great and what it could really help people and save lives.

 

The Taoism's door is open, it welcome everyone to learn and drink the cup of tea inside the home of Taoism. But to learn it, you must first pour yours and wait.

Mak Tin SI

 

Mak Tin Si,

_/\_

Thank you for this post. I see that you are sharing your lineage with others. That is good. Now we can see that you are Taoist of a particular lineage. I also see that now you have left room for other people to have a different lineage and you are not comparing yourself to them. In previous posts, you sounded very prideful as though you knew everything about ALL taoism. you sounded disrespectful to others who may have not as much experience as you. Now, I hear that you are only sharing what you were taught in your lineage. I see here a more humble side of you. Thank you for being available to share your knowledge with others and giving respect to different lineages and to people of different amount of Tao education and knowledge. Now, you will see that some people who were offended by you will be more curious and feel welcomed by you. Respecting everyone is also the mark of a Taoist master. Just because some people have only known of Tao from Lao Tzu does not make their experience inferior. Just as you knowing more of Tao history and healing ritual does not make you superior. We are all equal. I'm sure you know this and only want to help people.

I wish you good luck getting more students...

Edited November 21, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[goldisheavy]

If you can talk about taoism in Chi Gung, why don't you look at the Taoism rituals? Taoism healings? Fu? and also the other great scriptures in the Taoism Canon, I see people saying that these are rubbish

 

Who said that taoist healings or fu were rubbish?

 

Mak Tin Si, it's obvious you are not actually sharing much or anything of value. The "baby" stuff you share are just cultural trappings and not the essential knowledge that people can immediately put to good use in their homes. For example, information on how to open the lions is of no use to someone in their own home, is it? It's just the kind of information that feeds and encourages useless idle curiosity in people.

[Aetherous]

Mak Tin Si, it's obvious you are not actually sharing much or anything of value. The "baby" stuff you share are just cultural trappings and not the essential knowledge that people can immediately put to good use in their homes. For example, information on how to open the lions is of no use to someone in their own home, is it? It's just the kind of information that feeds and encourages useless idle curiosity in people.

 

Agreed.

 

I'd be interested in learning this Fu healing, though!

[fiveelementtao]

Please reply this post, I cannot see what is the point of you talking here with this kind of BS. Please contribute something useful and don't criticize me.

 

Mak Tin Si,

How is it you do not know how prideful and arrogant you sound when you say..

I cannot see how did I offend others in this forum and when did I told you all to convert yourself into the REAL taoism?

 

Do you really not see how that is offensive and arrogant? Really? you do not see that?

 

I can see now people are all talking about Taoism as chi gung, martial arts.. okay.. but that is NOT all of Taoism.

Nobody said it was ALL of Taoism. Do you mean to say that you know ALL of Taoism? You can't seriously be that arrogant.

 

Listen, my friend, that fact is you HAVE offended many people on this forum.

If you are serious when you ask how and don't know how you have been offensive, it is in your best interest to learn how.

 

I was once told my my Tao teacher, "If two or more people say something about you, you must look at yourself in the mirror and ask why they say these things."

 

Many people on this forum have found you to be prideful and arrogant. If this is untrue, it is in your best interest to try to understand how they have gotten this false impression of you...

 

Taoism is very very big, it consist much more than just Lao Zi , Tao Te Ching and it doesn't include Yoga.

 

Why do you need to attack yoga? What is wrong with it? I agree Tao is very very big. My friend, Tao includes EVERYTHING even Yoga. Tao also includes much more than fu and ritual also. Tao may be bigger than you think.

 

why don't you look at the Taoism rituals? Taoism healings? Fu? and also the other great scriptures in the Taoism Canon

 

Many people want very much to learn these things. Bees are attracted to flowers. When you tell people they are not REAL taoists, you put manure on the flowers and the bees are driven away.

 

Do not tell them they are inferior. It is your job to attract people so you can help them. By telling them they need to convert to "REAL" taoism, you make them feel like you are saying they are stupid. I know this is not your intention.

If you are true Tao master, you know I have no anger in my heart toward you. Look deep, you will see I am not your enemy. A true friend has the courage to be honest and tell someone the truth. I know that you want to help. be more respectful and more tolerant of the ignorant and you will be able to spread the word of Taoism to more people that need it...

 

I wish you good luck. I know you have much to teach all of us...

Edited November 22, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Anabhogya-Carya]

My real Taoism is not your real Taoism. Your real Taoism is not real in my real Taoism, and my real Taoism is not real in your real Taoism. Who's real Taoism is real Taoism?

[fiveelementtao]

My real Taoism is not your real Taoism. Your real Taoism is not real in my real Taoism, and my real Taoism is not real in your real Taoism. Who's real Taoism is real Taoism?

Good point.

 

Maybe we should just take out the ISM part. Someone once said to me " ism stands for I Self and Me."

 

If the Tao is infinite, How can it NOT include something?

 

I guess when we put ISM on anything, we limit it...

[Gerard]

Just another thread about ME. Taoists fighting with each other. Always the ego in view:

 

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~rywang/berkel...58/parable.html

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[VCraigP]

What I can see now is people here starts to go into a fantasy of your own so called Taoism. how dare you stole the chinese religion name and now calling it yours? Shame on that.

 

I have no interest in arguing with you because you have just misunderstood all the words said by those wise Taoist. Specially the guy who said "your real taoism is not my real taoism".

 

I agree if you want to be in your fantasy. Go ahead and play with your toy sword, it may cut yourself, becareful.

 

There is no point talking to you guys here who are thinking I did offend you because I cannot see WHERE did I offend you guys. I do open post topics, if you like you look at it, if you don't you get off. If you come into my open topics and try to ruin things up and trying to get the beep out of me, get lost. I do have stuff to share but you think I am just sharing too little (dose that mean I am doing promotion of my own sect or something?)

 

No point talking with these so called Taoist who are fantasizing.

 

Bye bye!

 

Dear Mak Tin Si

 

I suggest you read the following which you can find in it's entirety at the home page of Thetaobums.

 

Welcome to The Tao Bums discussion forum. This is an informal community created to discuss Tao (Dao), particularly as is expressed in key philosophical texts such as the well known Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu, health and cultivation practices such as Tai Chi and Qigong (Chi Kung), nonconceptual meditation approaches such as Zuowang (sitting and forgetting), and also the historical developments of Taoism as the bona fide Chinese religion of Taoist priests and shamans. Don't let this intro scare you though. Most of us are syncretic at heart. Discussion is encouraged to wander eclectically across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice, whether Buddhist, Yogic, Tantric, Judaic, Advaitic, Christian, Islamic, Shamanic, Occult, "New Age", Integral... As long as you are up for a good time, you're welcome to discuss your path. Though we can get rowdy at times, we all do our best to keep it civil. We are, almost as a rule, rather strange, but we have good hearts and even better senses of humor.

 

I suggest that you seek to refine your understanding of the English language as it is expressed on a discussion forum.

 

Five Element Tao's initial comment in this thread was in my view essentially friendly. As a friend he pointed out - I think correctly - that the attitude you are portraying in print may cause some to be offended or at least not feel a sense of openness and invitation from you.

 

Just as you point out that anyone has the option to ignore your posts, so to do you have the option to ignore his posts.

 

Your response to him seems to be that you take serious offense with what he said - again this is my interpretation from what you have written. You also have the option of ignoring such posts.

 

You have NO OWNERSHIP of a thread just because you started it. Sorry but that is how discussion forae work.

 

Five Element Tao did in my view go out of his way to complement you and try to temper his constructive criticism with his complementary language.

 

Your response to him says a lot more about you than about anyone's "Fantasy Taoism".

 

You come across as knowing a lot, but also as having a RIGID and FUNDAMENTALIST attitude.

 

If your aim is to share what you know you should understand that part of this sharing is showing by example in your approach to others in the written word whether you have the virtues of patience and compassion among others.

 

If someone tells you they think you may offend perhaps you would do better to try to understand why. Your approach seems to be utter rejection of this as a possibility. Again I urge you to strive for more familiarity with Written English and the style of discussion forae. It is easy to be misunderstood, especially when it comes to "Tone" or "attitude"of your text.

 

Respectfully submitted with the intention of promoting peaceful dialog.

 

Craig

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

I have no interest in arguing with you because you have just misunderstood all the words said by those wise Taoist. Specially the guy who said "your real taoism is not my real taoism".

 

 

 

I was making a point.....

The "my" and "your" are independent of any specific individual.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Anabhogya-Carya

[ZenStatic]

Well, if most of us are honest, we don't practice taoism. We practice a syncretic mixture of the things that resonate with us throughout many different traditions. So he really does have a point with that.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Well, if most of us are honest, we don't practice taoism. We practice a syncretic mixture of the things that resonate with us throughout many different traditions. So he really does have a point with that.

 

Thats analogous to saying eastern orthodox christianity is not real christianity because it draws from different influences and practices different things from Roman catholicism. I do not think Taoism is a monolithic religion and I do not think that mixing elements from traditions (especially traditions that have so much in common) lessens people's claims that they pratice Taoism or want to achieve harmony with Tao (which I think is the fundemental purpose of it, not a bunch of magic and dogma). Like I said, it depends on who is defining Taoism. I ask you to give me a defenition of Taoism. I do not care if Mak Tin Si is a priest, or has some esoteric hereditary knowledge, it does not make his idea of what Taoism is any more true.

[Pietro]

...

I do not care if Mak Tin Si is a priest, or has some esoteric hereditary knowledge, it does not make his idea of what Taoism is any more true.

 

From an historical point of view, as a cultural fenomena at least, it surely is more deserving to be called Taoism. I think it is more on you the weight to prove that what you call taoism is taoism. Especially if it is based on your personal understanding of a book that was written in another time, in another culture, and in a language that you probably ignore.

 

Craig, very good points. I simpathise with your work of trying to promote a dialogue.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Pietro

[ZenStatic]

Thats analogous to saying eastern orthodox christianity is not real christianity because it draws from different influences and practices different things from Roman catholicism. I do not think Taoism is a monolithic religion and I do not think that mixing elements from traditions (especially traditions that have so much in common) lessens people's claims that they pratice Taoism or want to achieve harmony with Tao (which I think is the fundemental purpose of it, not a bunch of magic and dogma). Like I said, it depends on who is defining Taoism. I ask you to give me a defenition of Taoism. I do not care if Mak Tin Si is a priest, or has some esoteric hereditary knowledge, it does not make his idea of what Taoism is any more true.

 

No, you make a horrible correlation there. It is more along the lines of comparing gnosticism with christianity. Because it takes parts of xtianity that it likes, and leaves other parts and combines everything with other beliefs.

 

And what traditions have so much in common that you are talking about? Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, New Age, what? Because they are all quite different, if you look at the whole, not just the little parts you want. But no matter if you like it or not, when you mix and match, it does indeed lessen what you may choose to call it. If I take 1 cup of orange kool aid, and a half cup each of lime, fruit punch, and grape, I can't really call it orange kool aid anymore, can I? It is still kool aid, which is akin to spirituality, but its not orange, which would be taoism. People can call things anything they want; that just doesn't change reality.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

No, you make a horrible correlation there. It is more along the lines of comparing gnosticism with christianity. Because it takes parts of xtianity that it likes, and leaves other parts and combines everything with other beliefs.

 

And what traditions have so much in common that you are talking about? Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, New Age, what? Because they are all quite different, if you look at the whole, not just the little parts you want. But no matter if you like it or not, when you mix and match, it does indeed lessen what you may choose to call it. If I take 1 cup of orange kool aid, and a half cup each of lime, fruit punch, and grape, I can't really call it orange kool aid anymore, can I? It is still kool aid, which is akin to spirituality, but its not orange, which would be taoism. People can call things anything they want; that just doesn't change reality.

 

Are you calling gnosticism invalid because it uses what it likes and innovates upon what was? This is what all religions do. Is the "Taoism" without religion and dogma not Taoism? That can be answered once you give me a good defenition. And sure, Taoism is interpreted differently in the West then it is in China, Christianity is probably interpreted differently (and molded into pre-existing culture) in the Philippines, are they not true Christians? Is European Christianity not true Christianity, because it borrows pagan rituals?

If the inclusion and rejection of certian elements of faiths in a culture is not representative of the "true" religion, than we are devoid of "true" religion on earth.

 

Any Taoist group you look at is going to call themselves Taoist or some variant, whether they use all the books, or magic or rituals, etc. If one person leaves folk magic out of Taoism are they not a Taoist? That is how new religions are made my friend, by borrowing and ommiting.

 

And yes, I speak of Buddhism and Hinduism. And I agree that combining elements of many systems is more akin to spirituality, but that was not my point. I was looking for a definitive answer to this "true" Taoism you all speak about. You seem to think it itself is immune to change and interpretation.

 

And I see how wonderfully you avoided defining true Taoism. What is this reality you speak of? And to think that religions do not evole and change is close minded. Maybe the Taoism of 1500 years ago is not the Taoism of today or maybe it is, I never claimed to know. All I said is that Mak Tin Si does not have a monopoly on the defenition of Taoism.

 

From an historical point of view, as a cultural fenomena at least, it surely is more deserving to be called Taoism. I think it is more on you the weight to prove that what you call taoism is taoism. Especially if it is based on your personal understanding of a book that was written in another time, in another culture, and in a language that you probably ignore.

 

Craig, very good points. I simpathise with your work of trying to promote a dialogue.

 

I am lost in a sea of interpretation and have no idea what Taoism is anymore. I never claimed to be a Taoist, mainly because I don't think anyone seems to know what Taoism is. And your last point applies to us all, save the language.

[Stigweard]

A beautiful response Craig

 

Dear Mak Tin Si

 

I suggest you read the following which you can find in it's entirety at the home page of Thetaobums.

 

Welcome to The Tao Bums discussion forum. This is an informal community created to discuss Tao (Dao), particularly as is expressed in key philosophical texts such as the well known Tao Te Ching of Lao Tzu, health and cultivation practices such as Tai Chi and Qigong (Chi Kung), nonconceptual meditation approaches such as Zuowang (sitting and forgetting), and also the historical developments of Taoism as the bona fide Chinese religion of Taoist priests and shamans. Don't let this intro scare you though. Most of us are syncretic at heart. Discussion is encouraged to wander eclectically across a wide range of spiritual thought and practice, whether Buddhist, Yogic, Tantric, Judaic, Advaitic, Christian, Islamic, Shamanic, Occult, "New Age", Integral... As long as you are up for a good time, you're welcome to discuss your path. Though we can get rowdy at times, we all do our best to keep it civil. We are, almost as a rule, rather strange, but we have good hearts and even better senses of humor.

 

I suggest that you seek to refine your understanding of the English language as it is expressed on a discussion forum.

 

Five Element Tao's initial comment in this thread was in my view essentially friendly. As a friend he pointed out - I think correctly - that the attitude you are portraying in print may cause some to be offended or at least not feel a sense of openness and invitation from you.

 

Just as you point out that anyone has the option to ignore your posts, so to do you have the option to ignore his posts.

 

Your response to him seems to be that you take serious offense with what he said - again this is my interpretation from what you have written. You also have the option of ignoring such posts.

 

You have NO OWNERSHIP of a thread just because you started it. Sorry but that is how discussion forae work.

 

Five Element Tao did in my view go out of his way to complement you and try to temper his constructive criticism with his complementary language.

 

Your response to him says a lot more about you than about anyone's "Fantasy Taoism".

 

You come across as knowing a lot, but also as having a RIGID and FUNDAMENTALIST attitude.

 

If your aim is to share what you know you should understand that part of this sharing is showing by example in your approach to others in the written word whether you have the virtues of patience and compassion among others.

 

If someone tells you they think you may offend perhaps you would do better to try to understand why. Your approach seems to be utter rejection of this as a possibility. Again I urge you to strive for more familiarity with Written English and the style of discussion forae. It is easy to be misunderstood, especially when it comes to "Tone" or "attitude"of your text.

 

Respectfully submitted with the intention of promoting peaceful dialog.

 

Craig

[asanjuan2008]

Thank you for reading the post but I cannot see how did I offend others in this forum and when did I told you all to convert yourself into the REAL taoism?

 

I'm curious as to what this REAL taoism is. I've encountered a few strict adherents who deride those who stumble onto Taoism from popular media as "Taoist Lite" or "Poohists", and firmly believe only they know the way to the REAL taoism.

 

It is obviously a fact that Taoism started in China, and of course its practice there continues to strongly influence Taoism worldwide, but that does not mean there are evolving branches of Taoism that do not also merit the term just because they vary in some of their practices.

 

Everything evolves over time, even religions and philosophies. For example, the practices of the Islamic and Christian churches today are far different from those when it first started. What makes Taoism different?

 

Evolution is usually good. It makes any structure adapt over time to changing conditions to become optimal in its environment. As in biology, so too in any philosophical and religious frameworks.

Edited November 23, 2008 by asanjuan2008

[Pietro]

I'm curious as to what this REAL taoism is. I've encountered a few strict adherents who deride those who stumble onto Taoism from popular media as "Taoist Lite" or "Poohists", and firmly believe only they know the way to the REAL taoism.

 

It is obviously a fact that Taoism started in China, and of course its practice there continues to strongly influence Taoism worldwide, but that does not mean there are evolving branches of Taoism that do not also merit the term just because they vary in some of their practices.

 

Everything evolves over time, even religions and philosophies. For example, the practices of the Islamic and Christian churches today are far different from those when it first started. What makes Taoism different?

 

Evolution is usually good. It makes any structure adapt over time to changing conditions to become optimal in its environment. As in biology, so too in any philosophical and religious frameworks.

 

 

Yes, but is there a continuity between the east and the west?

Were there people from the Taoist tradition who passed down the book and its meaning, who came to the west, and as it mingled with western culture, it started a different interpretation (like you have in Buddhism, from my partial understanding).

Or is it that Chrisitan monks brought the three books (TTC, ZZ, IC) from China and people from here used them coming with their interpretation. Which still is based on them (but often from translations from people who also were also not Taoists). But then there would be no continuity with the original tradition.

You mention Christianity, Christianity evolved over time but in the same general area. When it would expand in an area it would do this by having different people going there. And when new branches were created a lot of discussion was involved. Even when a single person started a branch (say Lutero), the discussion around him was strong and vivid. All this made sure that no single person had a huge impact on the development of the tradition. It is ok when a single person have this impact, if this person is a sage, or a wise man (Jesus, Buddha, Ta Mo). But to simply let any traveller who reaches a new land start his own version of a religion, and expect that to have equal value than the original on the one side, and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive.

[YMWong]

Yes, but is there a continuity between the east and the west?

Were there people from [...] and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive.

 

Excellent points nicely worded, Pietro !

 

YM

[asanjuan2008]

Yes, but is there a continuity between the east and the west?

Were there people from the Taoist tradition who passed down the book and its meaning, who came to the west, and as it mingled with western culture, it started a different interpretation (like you have in Buddhism, from my partial understanding).

Or is it that Chrisitan monks brought the three books (TTC, ZZ, IC) from China and people from here used them coming with their interpretation. Which still is based on them (but often from translations from people who also were also not Taoists). But then there would be no continuity with the original tradition.

You mention Christianity, Christianity evolved over time but in the same general area. When it would expand in an area it would do this by having different people going there. And when new branches were created a lot of discussion was involved. Even when a single person started a branch (say Lutero), the discussion around him was strong and vivid. All this made sure that no single person had a huge impact on the development of the tradition. It is ok when a single person have this impact, if this person is a sage, or a wise man (Jesus, Buddha, Ta Mo). But to simply let any traveller who reaches a new land start his own version of a religion, and expect that to have equal value than the original on the one side, and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive.

 

1. Why this obsession with assigning some objective "value" to religions, or sects? I would think that the function of any religion is to help its members spiritually without detriment to others around them, and if any religion does so, then one cannot say it is less or more than any other. The fact that Taoism in the USA has produced a vibrant variant with imports from other philosophical tenets does not in any way devalue it versus the original tenets in China, so long as the basic works like the Tao Te Ching are still revered and so long as it uplifts its members.

 

This obsession with true and untrue religions is simply a facet of the inherent tribalism in people...an us versus them outlook burned into our genes that really should have no place in Taoism.

 

2. You say there is no continuity with the original, and yet the fact is, the original works of Taoism speak for themselves, even given the various translations and interpretations. The "Christian Bible" is an amalgamation of many works and MANY translations (since obviously most everyone does not speak Hebrew or Latin), some present in some sects, some not in others, and yet all the groups that use the "bible" are called "Christian", because the CORE belief, that of the person called Christ, is one and the same.

 

Some of the offshoots of Christianity (I will use this religions as an example because I was Catholic and am familiar with it more than, say Islam or Judaism, or Hinduism) in countries like the Philippines have adapted local philosophies to such an extent that one could hardly call them Christians if one looked at the original variation in the Middle East, and yet the basic core values (such as the Bible) remain and thus label the whole (the Philippines) as "catholic" still - notwithstanding local beliefs intertwined with biblical characters such as dwarves, spirits, local deities, etc.

 

3. You seem to make a big deal about HOW taoism first got to america, but I can tell you now it makes not one whit of difference how it got here, so long as the core values remained.

 

Does going to the bakery by foot make me any different than if I went to the bakery by car? The same core information that makes me "me" is still there - the transport does not matter.

 

As I said, religions and philosophies evolve over time, and evolving Taoism is not an exception.

Edited November 24, 2008 by asanjuan2008

[YMWong]

The point of the discussion, and the excellent summary made by Pietro, is NOT whether 'western *daoism*' can be useful and if it is *better or worse* than its chinese counterpart.

 

Daoism is the english translation of the chinese term "Daojiao" which literally means "Tradition of Dao".

This term has been used since the warring states but it referred to ANYTHING related to the "Dao" (not Daojiao) and in this sense in fact it was largely used to refer mainly to Confucians.

"Dao" is not exclusive of Daoists but it is a fundamental *thing* in all chinese culture, but "Dao" and "Daoism" (Daojiao) are NOT the same thing.

 

The term Daojiao has been utilized to refer to actual Daoists ONLY during C.E. Those referred claimed a DIRECT relationship with the sages of old (Lao Zi among others) from whence they received a transmission which they evolved into an organized form of cultivation/worship.

This Tradition, in their own words, can only be claimed when a DIRECT transmission occurs.

 

During chinese history ALL scholars read and studied ALL the original classics, including the Daode Jing. Many even made commentaries reading, in the Daode jing, anything according to their own understanding.

Needless to say, nobody claimed to be Daoist and in fact openly continued to be Confucian, Buddhist or what-have-you.

 

YM

[asanjuan2008]

The point of the discussion, and the excellent summary made by Pietro, is NOT whether 'western *daoism*' can be useful and if it is *better or worse* than its chinese counterpart.

 

You must have missed this part, then:

 

QUOTE: "But to simply let any traveller who reaches a new land start his own version of a religion, and expect that to have equal value than the original on the one side, and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive."

 

He obviously means to compare Taoism in the USA versus the one in China.

[YMWong]

You must have missed this part, then:

 

QUOTE: "But to simply let any traveller who reaches a new land start his own version of a religion, and expect that to have equal value than the original on the one side, and the native in that land, on the other, is according to me a bit naive."

 

He obviously means to compare Taoism in the USA versus the one in China.

 

I take that 'value' in a purely historical perspective, not a personal judgement of the thing itself.

 

Anything has the value that *you* give it, regardless of its objective worth.

 

Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?"

Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."

"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!"

"It is in the ant."

"As low a thing as that?"

"It is in the panic grass."

"But that's lower still!"

"It is in the tiles and shards."

"How can it be so low?"

"It is in the piss and shit."

 

YM