The True Taoism?

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Edited November 22, 2008 by Anabhogya-Carya

[gossamer7]

[picnic]

I will take the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang Tzu for their philosophical, spiritual and lifestyle value, and go that way, not belonging to some religious collective of Taoism, calling it nothing. Maybe it is Taoism as a ideology and a system that is the faulty thing.

YES! I am with you No ism's for me, nothing so strict could be Tao, named it is not it, defined it is not it. It was only named, reluctantly by Lau Tzu anyway as he says else where in the TTC.

 

When I find it it my life, I more often refer to it as "Wow", than Tao, as it is clear, striking, but not-put-into-wordable.

[ZenStatic]

YES! I am with you No ism's for me, nothing so strict could be Tao, named it is not it, defined it is not it. It was only named, reluctantly by Lau Tzu anyway as he says else where in the TTC.

 

When I find it it my life, I more often refer to it as "Wow", than Tao, as it is clear, striking, but not-put-into-wordable.

 

See, what I find interesting, is that you guys are proponents of no kinds of worship, etc; but you do exactly that with LaoTzu and the TTC. You are using the TTC exactly as a Christian would use his bible.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

See, what I find interesting, is that you guys are proponents of no kinds of worship, etc; but you do exactly that with LaoTzu and the TTC. You are using the TTC exactly as a Christian would use his bible.

 

Hardly. When I read a philosophical text like Plato's "Republic" or Nietzsche "beyond good and evil" am I using them as a christian would use a bible? If i read any book and find it has value and insight, am I using it as a bible? If so, then it appears we all have many bibles. I never said the Tao Te Ching is the only thing I look to for guidance.

 

You know what you are commenting on here is RELIGIOUS DAOISM.

 

Philosophical Daoism is way different.

 

This is a great forum, but if your looking for people who practice philosophical Daoism, look here:

 

http://forum.daoisopen.com/default.asp

Peace, gossamer

 

Yes, but I was refering to the discussion about which Taoism is right Taoism. Both seem to have problems with each other, and both claim to be true, putting the defenition of Taoism into shady territory. The "ism" creates alot of conflict. And this form is called the "Tao Bums" not the "Religious Tao Bums" or "Philosophical Tao Bums" so i think both discussions are appropriate here... unless of course by "Tao" you mean religious Taoism, but that was hardly the immpression I have gotten on this forum.

[picnic]

See, what I find interesting, is that you guys are proponents of no kinds of worship, etc; but you do exactly that with LaoTzu and the TTC. You are using the TTC exactly as a Christian would use his bible.

That is very much not the case, I could burn my TTC, it is nothing special, just a concise pointing, the best we have, nothing perfect. I wrote my own, and have the world to look at, the book is a tiny reminder, I wont fight for it.

 

peace

[Gerard]

Real Taoism?

 

Start practicing Ba Gua, meditate beneath the stars, desire little, put others first, live a simple life and enjoy living in the natural environment. That day you will find Tao.

 

 

 

 

[Pietro]

durkhrod chogori, gave a great answer.

 

It is not just this or that. There are many tonalities. And it surely is interesting to hear what a person from a lineage who devoted their lives to understand and embody the principles of this book has to say.

 

On this board, for what concerns me, there will always be a place for people who just read the TTC and feel drawn to it. As well as a place for martial artists, who think that unless you can use those principles to knock out n number of opponents you have not really understood and embodied them. As a well as a place for strict meditators, sometimes whith extended Buddhist experience, who see meditation as the royal way toward the Tao. As well as a place for Chi Gung people who use energy and moving energy as their understanding. And for people who are a bit of all the previous. And let us not forget the for celibates and the internal alchemists. The term Tao Bum represents that this place is not the house of a single school. But people come over here from different schools, and some people will have experience from more than one.

 

We are not closing any door, we are just opening up a new wing. A wing that was missing from a long time.

 

As this happen, if this happens correctly, there will be a lot of adjustments, with a lot of new information. And it will not only be us having to adjust. Craig gave a great answer to Mak, explaining how people are expected to behave in our community. This is not Mak school, nor it is his temple either. But is a place where he can share what he knows, and we (most of us) desire that he can feel welcomed.

 

It's like a family. You don't share everything with everybody in your extended family. And you, by and large, have not chosen it. But you have many things in common, and you just avoid passing too much time with the people who do not like too much in your family

[Ya Mu]

Real Taoism?

 

Start practicing Ba Gua, meditate beneath the stars, desire little, put others first, live a simple life and enjoy living in the natural environment. That day you will find Tao.

 

Good Answer!!!

 

When I first learned "Taoism" I though that the Taoist Medicine that I learned was the real Taoism. And it IS! But it (the Tao) is ALSO everything else. Not some quotes or learned techniques or some book or something ANYONE says, but something that can only be found internal to yourself. In other words, living in the Tao is something that becomes self-evident and not what somebody says. I tell my students that they can either listen to me or not, that it really doesn't matter. If they only practice the cultivation then all the truth's that I or anyone else says become self-evident. Also any illusions drop to the wayside. Beautiful way of finding the truths and illusions of ANY pre-conceived belief system.

[Riyue]

Edited November 26, 2008 by Riyue

[doc benway]

What is True Daoism?

I'd like to ask a question in response.

Who has the privilege to define that?

 

Millions of Chinese who practice and deeply believe all of the rituals and religious trappings?

 

Thousands or millions of Westerners who have adopted and resonate with the philosophy but have no interest in the ritualistic components?

 

Laozi?

 

Laozi is most likely a legendary figure representing Chinese wisdom developed over centuries. The likelihood of him being a historical figure is nearly zero.

 

For the record - for me, the philosophical foundations and the cultivation methods that I practice are "real Daoism". But all I mean by that is that is what is real or meaningful for me. I have no interest at this point in my life in Yijing, exorcism, geomancy, astrology, and so on. That doesn't mean all that stuff isn't real. Every aspect of Daoism originates in and acts in human thought - without exception. It is a construct of human thought to attempt to put words to things that are beyond words. Why would one set of words be more real than another? None of it is real and all of it is real.

 

Daoism is what it is. Religious, spiritual, philosophical, metaphysical, practical, social, cultural, and much much more. It's all real. It's as real as the people who practice each of those aspects. And it's all illusion, it's all a collection of words and human thoughts that have very little to do with the reality they try to describe. Every religion can be described in a similar fashion. It may be more meaningful to simply identify what is valuable to you, take that and leave the rest. Daoism has a lot to offer and nowhere does it require you to take anything more than what you choose.

[ZenStatic]

Well put xuesheng. The reason I personally didn't answer this question before, was to give it some major though. And really, I still have no answer. Do I know exactly what Taoism is? No. But, I do know some things that it is not. It is not just reading a few books and trying to talk in paradoxes. It's not taking a few pieces of what you have heard, and combining it with another religion for your own personal Taoism.

 

Let me go deeper into that before I get lynched. The Tao, is part of everything. Plants, animals, people, stars, qi, etc. On this I think we can all agree. But Taoism, is something different. I think of it like this. The goals of the Jews, Catholics, Evangelicals, Muslims are all the same. Get to heaven, and not go to hell. Now, I am not saying you have to be one of those to try for that goal. But, just because you strive for that, does not make you a Jew, Catholic, Evangelical, or Muslim. And it doesn't give you the right to call yourself one either. Now, the vast majority of us on this board, strive to come into harmony with the Tao. Just because that is our goal, doesn't make us a Taoist. We may be a student of the Tao, study it, and cultivate to get closer to it; but by choosing to ignore other things that have always been connected to Taoism, rather negates our right to call ourselves a Taoist. Myself, I am as syncretic as they come; I just call myself a Seeker, and leave it at that.

 

I'm sure many will disagree with what I have said here, and if you do, I ask you to stop and think for a moment. Is it because I am wrong, or because it goes against what you think of yourself?

[exorcist_1699]

The point is not to interpret our life /world but to change it.

 

If after having read Lao Tzu , your life is still same as before ,without any fundamental change , and if you think you only have read a good philosophical book , then you really belittle the significance of LaoTzu . Only careful reader of the book and those practitioners can understand that at many places in it , Lao Tzu talks about Tao as pre-heavenly qi . And, embodiment of Tao in our life also means absorbing pre-heavenly qi in our life, which , of course , will generate life-and -death change ; such a change is beyond any superficial, philosophical understanding . And, it is the reason why it generates religious meaning.

 

Religion is nothing horrible . It is foolish to be perplexed by those costume and rituals. Keen observers always know how to get rid of those look formal and pseudo , go straight forward and grasp what is the crucial .

Edited November 26, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

Religion is nothing horrible . It is foolish to be perplexed by those costume and rituals. Keen observers always know how to get rid of those look formal and pseudo , go straight forward and grasp what is the crucial .

 

Never said it was. I was just wondering if it is generally excepted in organized Taoism that costumes, rituals, talismans are such are truely magic and powerful. I was wondering if the stuff Mak Tin Si is talking about is representative of the view of "proper" Taoism. If not, than wonderful, i would love to get more involved with Taoism. If yes, than I have little interest in being involved (never said anything about not learning about it) with Taoism. And thus would take what I found enlightening about it orignially and call it nothing. It was a statement posed to get answers to a question.

[styrofoamdog]

Never said it was. I was just wondering if it is generally excepted in organized Taoism that costumes, rituals, talismans are such are truely magic and powerful. I was wondering if the stuff Mak Tin Si is talking about is representative of the view of "proper" Taoism. If not, than wonderful, i would love to get more involved with Taoism. If yes, than I have little interest in being involved (never said anything about not learning about it) with Taoism. And thus would take what I found enlightening about it orignially and call it nothing. It was a statement posed to get answers to a question.

There's no one proper Daoism, just like there is no proper Buddhism. It has changed into many different forms since the days of the Daodejing and the Huangdi Neijing. The important thing is to see truth and make judgments for yourself, based on broad and careful study. Once you start taking ideas from everywhere without any regard to the traditions they originated in, then you'll fall into perpetual confusion because the teachings will (or will seem to) contradict each other.

 

Comparatively, Daoism is more difficult to study than Buddhism, since texts were not focused on to the extent that they were in Buddhism. For example, if someone wants to learn Chan Buddhist teachings, studying the Lankavatara Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Surangama Sutra, and Heart Sutra would basically be enough. (Actually, that's more than most monks in the past learned, as they would primarily focus on learning the Lankavatara Sutra or the Diamond Sutra.) There is no clear curriculum like this for Daoism.

[gossamer]

Dear exorcist_1699,

 

If you think that reading the Dao de jing will leave you unchanged, than you've missed the whole point really.

 

Laozi wrote those words so that we would ingest them, and become LIKE THE WORDS, or like the words MEANING.

 

I'm not looking to become a magician, or "an immortal", or a religious person, really.

 

I'm looking to become the most real, compassionate, and sagely ME that I can be.

 

Do you understand this?

 

If religious Daoism is what your looking for, I say good for YOU, but perhaps you can try to understand those who find Philosophical Daoism ENOUGH.

 

I frankly don't think that anyone could read Laozi's words in the Dao de Jing and remain unchanged.

 

That said, I bid you a Happy Thanksgiving, and Peace.

 

gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The point is not to interpret our life /world but to change it.

 

If after having read Lao Tzu , your life is still same as before ,without any fundamental change , and if you think you only have read a good philosophical book , then you really belittle the significance of LaoTzu . Only careful reader of the book and those practitioners can understand that at many places in it , Lao Tzu talks about Tao as pre-heavenly qi . And, embodiment of Tao in our life also means absorbing pre-heavenly qi in our life, which , of course , will generate life-and -death change ; such a change is beyond any superficial, philosophical understanding . And, it is the reason why it generates religious meaning.

 

Religion is nothing horrible . It is foolish to be perplexed by those costume and rituals. Keen observers always know how to get rid of those look formal and pseudo , go straight forward and grasp what is the crucial .

[exorcist_1699]

Hi. Gossamer,

 

I do not oppose others viewing Taoism just as a philosophical system as long as it is only his/ her personal choice ; what I oppose is some people's opposition of the religious implication of Taoism . Thing appears to intellectuals as philosophical , may appear to the crowd as religious .Tao exists everywhere; it is not the privilege of a small group of intellectuals to " enjoy" it spiritually ; Tao's "compassion " towards the crowd also is limitless , which inevitably leads it to resolving the crowd's sufferings ( whether they can be rescued is another story ) ;in that case , it appears as religious .

 

" How can heartless Tao shows compassion towards the mass ?" You may argue , blaming me interpret Lao Tzu arbitrarily .

 

As Tao exists everywhere , it places pre-heavenly yang ( ie, jing , in case of living organism) in our body , let us share its eternity and omnipotence.

 

Although in Taoism , the urge to rescue the mass is not as strong as Buddhism ( The saying is : It is the

sickness of the crowd that makes the Buddha sick ; the sufferings of the crowd the makes Buddha suffers ;

Note: Originally Buddha should be free of any illness and sufferings for how can " emptiness" be sick ? be suffering ? ) , the sharing of pre-heavenly yang in every person's body does provide she/ he a ladder climbing up to a much higher level , whether she/he wants to climb ( or is prepared to climb) is up to her/his decision . However, people should not belittle Tao as just a philosophical system and prevent others from upgrading themselves..

Edited December 1, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[asanjuan2008]

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I am in a similar frame of mind in that I find the "philosophical" side of Taoism more comforting.

 

However, I wouldn't go so far as to deride the beliefs and practices of others who find solace in their Taoist path by suggesting that there is a "TRUE" Taoism.

 

That would just be as misplaced as people who deride me (not here in this forum though) for incorporating contemporary ideas into the simple tao site.

 

There is no "true" taoism...taoism is ;-)

 

I was not suggesting. I was asking.

[gossamer]

Ummmmmmm, all I know is that i'm a "True Daoist" and ANYONE who says I'm not, is a damned liar! lol

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

gossamer

Edited November 27, 2008 by gossamer

[exorcist_1699]

The fact is , after the completion of the book: Lao Tzu , Taoism further develops and absorbs the Yin/Yang theory and lays the foundation of TCM ( Traditional Chinese Medicine) ; it then becomes the system that cure billions of people for more than 2,000 years . An abstract , philosophical theory being used as practical , analytic tool is a very unique phenomena in human culture : not only symptoms of illness are analyzed in the jing-qi-shen + yin/yang framework , but herbs are being used and classified by it . Taoism, in fact, dissolves into people's daily life and takes effect without being noticed by most people ( achieve without doing anything ?)

 

 

People ( me too ) may not like the religious apearance of Taoism , but the combination of it with medicine and religion seems inevitable . Based on the Taoist theory of qi and heavenly- qi , immortality is a practical possibility , not just a theoretical assumption , so its link with religion is therefore undeniable .

 

How can a system like Taoism which grasps the fundamental force of our life/universe not give rise to profound medical and religious influence ? Getting rid of its other weird religious substance should not be like people throwing away their baby together with dirty water after bathing it .

Edited December 1, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[asanjuan2008]

I was not suggesting. I was asking.

 

Sorry, but I hit this quote and had to look at it that way

 

"But all this talk of seals against demons, magical rituals, temples, commandments, has put me off. "

 

 

 

The fact is , after the completion of the book: Lao Tzu , Taoism further develops and absorbs the Yin/Yang theory and lays the foundation of TCM ( Traditional Chinese Medicine) ; it then becomes the system that cure billions of people for more than 2,000 years . An abstract , philosophical theory being used as practical , analytic tool is a very unique phenomena in human culture : not only symptoms of illness are analyzed in the jing-qi-shen + yin/yang framework , but herbs are being used and classified by it . Taoism, in fact, dissolves into people's daily life and takes effect without being noticed by most people ( achieve without doing anything ?)

People ( me too ) may not like the religious apearance of Taoism , but the combination of it with medicine and religion seems inevitable . Based on the Taoist theory of qi and heavenly- qi , immortality is a practical possibility , not just a theoretical assumption , so its link with religion is therefore undeniable . Getting rid of its other weird religious substance should not be like people throwing away their baby together with dirty water after bathing it .

 

Interesting well thought-out post. I do subscribe to some of the religious practices, but the main attraction for me has always been the ideological framework.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Sorry, but I hit this quote and had to look at it that way

 

"But all this talk of seals against demons, magical rituals, temples, commandments, has put me off. "

 

 

Fair enough. I happened to include my personal view within the question of whether this is the generally accepted view of Taoism or not.

[Stigweard]

I think we have to be compassionate to the different needs of people and the requirements of our society. For some people spirituality functions more as a form of emotional support; to give them a sense of self-confidence in a chaotic world. For other people it provides a means of social interaction and a sense of communal togetherness. Others approach their spirituality as merely a 'way' to operate effectively in the world whilst they pursue their worldly goals. And still others will approach their spirituality as the fulfillment of their true nature or divine potential. I am quite sure this list can be extended ad infinitum.

 

Every person is at their own level and need different tools to get them to the next plateau up the mountain side. It is my belief that, ultimately, to become effectively independent spiritual beings we must discover the inner resources of our own true innate nature. However, just as we need training wheels when are learning to ride a bike, sometimes we must first shift our dependence upon some reliable teaching and use certain external tools. Eventually these external teachings and tools must give way to the sovereignty of true spiritual authority, but the path is long for each of us and who can really judge what another person 'should' be doing on their individual path.

 

There are many ways to get to the mountain top and it certainly isn't a race or competition to see who has the best climbing boots or who has chosen the 'quickest' route of ascension. So let us perhaps take the time to appreciate our fellow climbers, rejoice in the diversity that we offer and cheer each other on in our progress.

 

[asanjuan2008]

By chance I am reading Deng Ming Dao's 365 Tao meditations, and for the entry to be read on Nov 29 (northern hemisphere) he says this about Donkeys (and I summarize):

 

In order to climb to the summit of the mountain, one has to sometimes use a donkey, but once one reaches the summit and views the vista, it does not matter what donkey was used, whether it be a Tao donkey, or Buddhist donkey, or Jewish donkey...