An... um interesting site

[Tactile]

Hello

 

I recently stumbled across this site http://dangerofchi.org/ again. I remember running through it sometimes in the past & being a little confused because the author seemed well researched and most likely has done chi kung himself as he has said. ( actually a bit of googling turns his personal story http://www.thejinn.net/chi_jinn_my_story.htm ) http://www.thejinn.net/truth_about_spontaneous_chi.htm . Here is a more readable version of the original text.

 

He comes from an islamic background and claims that chi = demons and that practicing chi kung (=yoga, meditation, whatever) is just a way of opening yourself up to demons so they can take hold. Not the most orginal idea to be honest.. but the presentation is kind of interesting as he doesn't appear to be your basic monotheistic nutcase and the arguments are quite logical provided that you accept his perspective. He lists the effects of chi kung and takes all of them at face value and also mentions the positive effects. Of course he also highlights the chi kung deviation syndrome (an official syndrome nowadays, also in the US I believe) which is only appropriate if you want to make a case for demonic possession. This aspect I feel he exaggerates which is only natural for a chi kung defamation article I guess ..

 

I still feel a little confused about the article though.. one some level it almost seems like a clash between monotheistic and pantheistic energies. And it made me feel that both energies are quite real and at least in this case mutually exclusive. On the other hand I know that many christian&islamic people practice chi kung with good results and no apparent contradictions..

[r.w.smith]

Heres another very interesting article. This guy goes into great detail about his time spent studying yan xin qigong & his experience with the famous Zhang Hongbao (said to be deceased due to a car accident in america ?)

 

http://www.chinaforjesus.com/resources/qigong/chap2.htm

 

A very good read as well as many other articles of similar taste.

[Tactile]

Heres another very interesting article. This guy goes into great detail about his time spent studying yan xin qigong & his experience with the famous Zhang Hongbao (said to be deceased due to a car accident in america ?)

 

http://www.chinaforjesus.com/resources/qigong/chap2.htm

 

A very good read as well as many other articles of similar taste.

 

Man, that's a lot of text! Perused it somewhat and the flavour seems the same as in the islamic one. It's spiritual warfare, that's what it is!

[exorcist_1699]

The Taoist immortals differ from others because immortal is an outcome after having nourished our spirit with 100% qi of yang .

 

While some people can concentrate their mind in meditation , hold it and nourish a spirit evil with supernatural

power/3rd eye ability , theirs are most likely a yin one , and , are unlikely to be everlasting ; Such kind of

spirit of yin , similar to a ghost , of course, is not in any sense a Taoist one .

Edited November 25, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[sunshine]

www.universalmedicine.com.au

 

Recently been to a seminar... in a way I assume they claim something similar...

speaking of the pranic world and then the other, which is the godly one...

 

so I assume every method basically dealing with prana is considered

belonging to the "Lords of Form"

and not the proper way anywhere...

 

dont know yet what to make of it

 

[Apech]

These accounts seem from what I have read of them to deal with people who have undertaken 'powerful' practices without having understood what they are doing or what was happening. Moving energy/chi in your body and so on can produce quite dramatic results including the ones that they mention. In fact these stories are probably very good illustrations of why you shouldn't have 'power' as the goal without understanding and compassion. I wonder why their teachers didn't help them? Is it possible that they too were subject to the same forced approach.

 

We all seek effective techniques and practices and I quite agree that there is no point messing around. But all practice has to be approached at a level and speed which is assimilable to the individual. Good teachers understand this.

 

Obviously it is in the interest of mainstream religion whether Christian, Islamic or other to demonize anything which is not within their control and leads to individual empowerment (in the true sense) and realization. So I think both the initial teachers and the 'exorcisers' are at fault and left some very confused individuals.

[Taomeow]

These accounts seem from what I have read of them to deal with people who have undertaken 'powerful' practices without having understood what they are doing or what was happening.

Agree 100%.

 

Wouldn't expect anything but trouble down the road from any practice that emphasizes "cultivating spirit" while neglecting "cultivating life."

 

All manner of "power hangovers" are inevitable if power is not tempered by the alchemical process of transforming suffering into compassion. Which has to be experiential -- not theoretical -- one has to have lived like that, not merely "believed in it."

 

Real power comes from living a challenging life and learning to solve its riddles with all one's got. Power from qigong is the last refining stage of alchemical transformation of crude power accumulated in this manner, not the first. Power practices that don't rest on a solid and grounded human foundation are like a meal of tabasco sauce and hard liquor... powerful indeed, "spirit" will be nourished big time, but "life" won't get any sustenance... and tears will flow.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yeah, I've seen sites and arguments like this before. At least some people try to do research, there are plenty of people out there that just go right into how qi is satanic devil energy and... yeah, it just gets messy.

 

mainstream religion whether Christian, Islamic or other to demonize anything which is not within their control and leads to individual empowerment (in the true sense) and realization. So I think both the initial teachers and the 'exorcisers' are at fault and left some very confused individuals.

 

Yeah, it's rough when it gets political like that... "we are the only path to God/Salvation and all others are demonic".... yeah... but when you think about it it means that a LOT of people are going to be disappointed when they die

 

And as for the points about powerful practices can be dangerous for someone who's not a grounded individual, totally agree. Yes, I guess it is in part the teacher's responsibility to make sure the student doesn't get over their head... but I also think it is in part the student's responsibility to realize, "hey, this isn't a game, this is serious cultivation."

 

Be serious about it. Learn the risks. Learn the proper exercises. Do them the right way. Don't do anything you aren't ready for, if you have doubts about something... stop, give it time, maybe come back when you have matured a bit.

 

And um... yeah. Generally be smart about it.

[goldisheavy]

Hello

 

I recently stumbled across this site http://dangerofchi.org/ again. I remember running through it sometimes in the past & being a little confused because the author seemed well researched and most likely has done chi kung himself as he has said. ( actually a bit of googling turns his personal story http://www.thejinn.net/chi_jinn_my_story.htm ) http://www.thejinn.net/truth_about_spontaneous_chi.htm . Here is a more readable version of the original text.

 

He comes from an islamic background and claims that chi = demons and that practicing chi kung (=yoga, meditation, whatever) is just a way of opening yourself up to demons so they can take hold. Not the most orginal idea to be honest.. but the presentation is kind of interesting as he doesn't appear to be your basic monotheistic nutcase and the arguments are quite logical provided that you accept his perspective.

 

What is logical about it? He just makes a series of unsupported statements. For example he says,

 

"I have been a practioner of the martial arts for over a decade, and that also includes spontaneous Chi Kung. The Chi they utilize is not a harmonious, benevolent, all prevailing, invisible energy/force which flows binds and permeates throughout the Universe, but rather a sentient life form unto themselves (nor are they discarnate spirits of the dead as is commonly believed in the west) which religions around the world and communities & civilizations throughout history have commonly termed Spirits, Jinns or Demons."

 

And I would say, that's precisely what Chi is! Included into that force are the phenomena of sentience, which are also benevolent at the highest level of insight. Even if you kill the cow to make burgers, you wouldn't say the cow is malevolent, would you? This guy is possessed by Islam in the same way a Qigong practitioner is possessed by Qi. There is no difference at all. Islam is basically a jinn energy, because it moves into your brain and starts demanding things, like 5 prayers a day and so on. This jinn also manifests externally as the community that likes to gather at the Mosque, which is the jinn temple.

 

Of course this guy doesn't believe that, does he? But if he tried to explain how Islamoposession is not a jinn, he'd have a VERY HARD TIME if he tried to debate with me. He'd be foaming at the mouth and he'd lose the ability to sleep, but he couldn't do it. I won't seek this guy out, but if he wants to come here and try to prove that Islamopossession is not a jinn, I welcome his attempt.

[seadog]

The reflections in the mirror can say and believe what they will.

Doesn't change the nature of the mirror.

[Apech]

Islam is basically a jinn energy, because it moves into your brain and starts demanding things, like 5 prayers a day and so on. This jinn also manifests externally as the community that likes to gather at the Mosque, which is the jinn temple.

 

Of course this guy doesn't believe that, does he? But if he tried to explain how Islamoposession is not a jinn, he'd have a VERY HARD TIME if he tried to debate with me. He'd be foaming at the mouth and he'd lose the ability to sleep, but he couldn't do it. I won't seek this guy out, but if he wants to come here and try to prove that Islamopossession is not a jinn, I welcome his attempt.

 

 

Not all Islam or Muslims are like this. There is a lot of genuine spirituality in Islam e.g. Sufis and so on. There are different paths and as someone reminded me on here recently it doesn't do to mix them. But it is overtly political and controlling to define another's religion as wrong or evil. Individuals relate well despite differences, for instance Jews and Muslims lived side by side in Palestine before the creation of Israel. But as soon as governments and fundamentalist ideologies get involved things fall apart and the shooting starts.

 

One of the most interesting things about fundamentalist Christianity is how many things they hate. A religion founded on 'love thy neighbour, love they enemy' becomes 'hate gays, hate muslims'. How does that happen? Don't they read the New testament? The same is true for Wahadi Islam.

[Aetherous]

I loved the second link. It was a good read. This one:

 

http://www.chinaforjesus.com/resources/qigong/chap2.htm

 

It's good to question whether our qi is actually good for us, or in his case, not so good! I have yet to read the other chapters, though.

[goldisheavy]

Not all Islam or Muslims are like this. There is a lot of genuine spirituality in Islam e.g. Sufis and so on. There are different paths and as someone reminded me on here recently it doesn't do to mix them. But it is overtly political and controlling to define another's religion as wrong or evil. Individuals relate well despite differences, for instance Jews and Muslims lived side by side in Palestine before the creation of Israel. But as soon as governments and fundamentalist ideologies get involved things fall apart and the shooting starts.

 

One of the most interesting things about fundamentalist Christianity is how many things they hate. A religion founded on 'love thy neighbour, love they enemy' becomes 'hate gays, hate muslims'. How does that happen? Don't they read the New testament? The same is true for Wahadi Islam.

 

I agree with you. Because I also believe that, I want to separate Sufis from Muslims. I think many Muslims are themselves actually hostile to Sufis. There have been a number of Sufis who were harmed by the Muslims, if I am not mistaken.

 

Sufis like Rumi are wonderful people to my mind. I think if Rumi showed up here we could have a good time discussing things. Rumi wouldn't be here telling us that Chi is jinn possession. I don't think Rumi even talked about jinns.

[Yoda]

Scotty,

 

Thanks for pointing that out. I enjoyed it!

 

Here is the essence of it:

 

"There are two kinds of spirits in the spiritual world. One is the evil spirit, which comes from the devil, or Satan. When you practiced qigong, you were filled with evil spirits. In contrast is the Holy Spirit, who comes from God, who is the King of the universe. Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit. The essences of these two spirits are totally different and completely opposite to each other."

 

My rational knowledge was much clearer now. I suddenly realized what I had done before: "Is it that I worked for the devil before?"

 

He laughed. "Yes. And you have paid a miserable price for it. But all has passed. Tomorrow is a new day."

 

Yes. How beautiful! A new life had begun.

 

"Let us pray," he reminded me.

 

"Yes, let us pray."

[r.w.smith]

What i find even more interesting is...........This guy obviously gained a decent amount of energy yet in the end was beat up by a couple of hooligans ha ha ha .

[三江源]

UNINHIBITED BODY MOVEMENTS ARE EVIL.

[Aetherous]

Here is one idea from http://www.chinaforjesus.com/resources/qigong/chap6.htm , which I don't agree with:

 

When an individual starts to practice qigong, God's anger comes upon him/her, and he or she will then live under a curse.

 

How does this guy know that this is true? It's kind of like proclaiming to know that you know how God works.

 

In the book of Job in the Bible, Satan came to Job and tormented him for being the best man on Earth. So in that light, qigong could be considered good if bad things start happening to its practitioners. Not saying that's the case...but it's another possibility equally as valid as 'qigong is evil'.

 

Perhaps the bad times that people face as a result of practice are tests. And even Job ultimately failed in the end, causing God to make his huge speech about how he knows everything and Job knew nothing. But after Job was truly put in his place, he was very fortunate. Perhaps these trials we face as to get us to that point of surrendering.

 

I don't know about curses, though. I tend to think that we can start seeing what we want to see...and sometimes if people believe they're cursed, they'll want to prove it's true. But if we're thick-skulled, maybe no curses will work on us.

 

...personally I don't know if practicing qigong has caused possession. I have tended to think that any negative results I've had are just due to improper practice. There was one point early on in my spiritual career, where I experienced really amazing health. I'm still practicing mostly to see if I can figure out how to do that again...to find the panacea, to cure others. If my experience of miraculous health years ago was due to spirits possessing me, and then taking away my health...I will be PISSED!

 

But really...I will be.

[Birch]

Well maybe some of this would explain why I have to keep cutting back on energy practices;-)

 

I have no idea, I really don't. But I'm thinking (in a very generic way) that if you try to do some things on top of a specific cultural and personal conditioning and these things are too 'far out' from where you're at, then that's probably asking for weirdness at least, if not some sort of minor (or major) psychological conflict.

[Yoda]

I think that there is a lot of fear mongering about spirituality in the modern world both amongst the religious and non religious people.

 

Everyone thinks horror flick. No wonder we are so croakaphobic.

[Aetherous]

For myself I'm not necessarily thinking horror flick, but I definitely expected the results of 7 months of spontaneous qigong to be much better. I can't explain why, but I have actually gotten worse health from practicing.

 

From chapter 2:

4. Once I practiced at night in the cold wind, which hurt my neck and caused me serious rheumatism. I could not heal it. What was even stranger was that it deteriorated so as to make my neck feel extremely uncomfortable and tortured me every day. I had to shake my neck to alleviate the pain. Since every few minutes I had to shake my neck forcefully, I must have looked very funny to other people. I then understood the qigong theory about "avoiding wind as we would escape arrows." Though after I reached a certain level I was no longer vulnerable to wind when I practiced, rheumatism had already set in my neck. I was very disappointed, for my gongfu was completely useless for my own sickness. I did not know why. Anyway, this neck disease was very strange, for I passed my uncomfortable feeling to other people. I tried not to shake my neck when I was with some people, for otherwise they would very soon start to shake their neck or pinch their neck with their hands. They looked very uncomfortable and told me they did not feel very well. They did not know I had a neck problem, which I dared not to admit as the cause of their discomfort. Anyhow, I felt very much perplexed about this myself. Once when I was watching a movie in the theatre, a soldier was sitting just beside me. He was soon infected very seriously. He kept shaking his neck every few minutes until the movie was over. I tried all the time to bear the pain in my neck and did not shake my neck even once, being filled with shame and guilt. I knew this was not a common disease, but a strange one that had energy with it. When I touched my neck, the painful part felt cold.

 

I've had this same phenomenon happen. The incessant knot in my back that I've had for like 5 months now has been passed on (at least temporarily) to a few of my classmates.

 

Now I'm not a fear mongerer, and I am a qigong practitioner and not some fundamentalist religious person, but what can possibly explain my negative symptoms?

 

Purification? I tend to not believe in that. We'll see if it's all purification as time goes by, and the negative symptoms remain.

 

I think it's healthy to actually look at the results of our practice in this way.

[Birch]

Maybe more care should be taken by us all in understanding what we're about to do before we do it? This is why TTB is very useful!

 

Just because it's more or less 'intangible' doesn't mean that caution can't be (or shouldn't be) exercised. You wouldn't ingest 500 grams of something before you knew what it was and what it would likely do. Would you?

 

...

 

You also wouldn't try lifting something very heavy if you didn't have prior training and technique, would you?

 

Whatever route is taken to describe what these techniques 'are' (back to same old same old terminology problems?) is also going to effect the perception (for some) of the results.

 

From what I've read/understood, any shamanic or transformational initiation is going to have a 'problematic' component to it. Otherwise it wouldn't be recognized as part of the shamanic experience.

 

It would just be easier on some people if their majority culture was ok with them going through it. We so often overlook the cultural aspect of our characters.

 

It reminds me of the separate status that transsexuals enjoy in some cultures (ask me which ;-) I'll have to google that for you;-)) and which is actually valued by the rest of the community because they perform specific rites that no one else can.

 

Cheers,

 

Kate

[phore]

I do not know any muslims personally.

I do have a great deal of experience from the period i spent training with southern baptists though. (very rigorous training. sometimes we would have as many as 2-3 potlucks a week. )

 

The basic premises of the school of thought that they held were as follows:

 

The definition of magic: using the devils power to do something unnatural.

 

Seances (communicating with spirits usually preformed by psychics) - The spirits are actually demons disguised as spirits.

 

Psychics are using the devils power

 

Witchcraft (eg the native religions of europe) - worship satan and posess powers given to them by him.

 

Wicca (modern witchcraft religion)- appears harmless at first but when you get far enough in you see it for what it truly is (satan worship) and wish to get out but cant for fear of your life

 

Pagan religions (farmer?) are worshiping the devil in the form of idols.

 

Muslims worship satan

 

Anything tied to a religion other than protestant christianity is pagan devil worship

 

Catholics (the original christianity that protestantism draws its beliefs from) can go to heaven but only if they are saved by protestant standards. Though most southern baptists will uphold decisions made by the pope.

 

Jews (gods chosen people according to their doctrines) will only go to heaven if they are saved by protestant standards. But you should still support israel because god will be on your side then.

 

Chi is using the devils energy/ demons

 

Demons and Daemons are the same thing (possibly this is from lack of research into the subject)

 

The bible (collection of letters that was edited and compiled around 500 ad) is perfect and infallible.

 

The united states of america was founded on christian principles (actually it was freemasonry)

 

If science discovers something new that challenges interpretation of the scriptures science must be wrong.

 

Science is pagan devil worship

 

While jesus is the only perfect person, their ideas are infallible if they are supported by a bible verse, or something their preacher said one time. (this is closely related to the rejection of science)

 

The world began 6000 years ago. All documented evidence to the contrary was planted by satan as an elaborate hoax.

 

Dinosuars are generally accepted even though they dont fit into their timeline. I have seen them thrown into the time before the great flood. (i guess noah got lazy and missed some animals ) Carbon dating disproves this but baptists dont believe in carbon dating because all carbon was created at the same time (speechless). It also occurs to me that aquatic reptiles wouldn't be wiped out by a great flood. Its best not to think too deeply about these things.

 

Evolution doesnt exist. Humans didnt evolve from monkeys! Darwin admitted that he didnt believe his own theory (wait what?) they ignore that the theory is perfectly logical. They discount inherited traits and phenomenon such as antibiotic resistance (direct observable proof of evolution). They prefer not to think about it.

 

Everything in the bible is literal not symbolic. (I guess they prefer not to think about it )

 

You can pollute the environment and cut down as many trees as you want because the world will end before it becomes a problem.

 

The world will end soon! This belief has been held since 1000ac

 

God stopped speaking to people after jesus was born, with the obvious exception of everyone in the bible that god spoke to after jesus was born. Some of the newer generation believe that god does speak through an intuition like mechanism. But this isnt considered pagan devil worship, or maybe it is. Moving on.

 

Christian rock is an oxymoron. The church seems to be divided on this issue.

 

As far as i know they dont have a system of cultivation. They come to church on sunday, so i guess that kind of counts.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2008 by phore

[gendao]

I loved the second link. It was a good read. This one:

 

http://www.chinaforjesus.com/resources/qigong/chap2.htm

 

It's good to question whether our qi is actually good for us, or in his case, not so good! I have yet to read the other chapters, though.

Interesting story...funny cuz I was evangelized to in the street just a few days ago. And hey, I'm still open to Jesus and all that, but there's just so much varied dogma about him I frankly don't even know what to believe anymore...

 

Anyhow, I think it's hard to generalize off just a few anecdotes. Especially when there seems to be many longterm qigong practitioners who I don't believe have had similar problems, and also some Christians/Muslims who have had bad luck & "shitty" lives as well. Point is, there's a lotta different variables and results here and so quite a stretch to assume and reduce it to "qigong = Satanic evil."

 

I mean, I bow to God and connect to the Source. So, they're certainly not opposing camps in my practice...

 

I'm not saying their theories can't be true, but it seems I would have heard many more stories like that if it were true, though?

[Aetherous]

Anyhow, I think it's hard to generalize off just a few anecdotes. Especially when there seems to be many longterm qigong practitioners who I don't believe have had similar problems, and also some Christians/Muslims who have had bad luck & "shitty" lives as well. Point is, there's a lotta different variables and results here and so quite a stretch to assume and reduce it to "qigong = Satanic evil."

 

I mean, I bow to God and connect to the Source. So, they're certainly not opposing camps in my practice...

 

Sensible post. I agree!

[seekeroftruth]

I went to Catholic school for twelve years...even though my parents brought me up Hindu (though it was never anything strict). My conclusion from those twelve years is that Catholicism (and probably most Christianity) is rather irrational. In the end, all of the beliefs are based on faith. There is no proof, no evidence.

 

Thinking about it, most people's religion is like this. There are plenty of Buddhist, Taoists, Hindus, etc. who don't try to experience what is written in scriptures, just take it at face value and believe it, despite how ridiculous it is. Even people who have energetic experience can have crazy beliefs.

 

Wow, this is turning into a rant against religion. Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that going for experience, rather than for settling for intellectual belief is what you need.

 

...but actually getting that experience...that's a whole different ballgame