standing meditation: HOW TO STAND???

[sunshine]

O.k. Now that I have done standing meditation for a little while let me ask.

 

Where does one place the weight on the feet?

 

I know that one is not supposed to have the knees go over the toes...

 

but does one have the weight more to the heels (feeling like a weight is hanging right from the sacrum vertically down to the floor)... or does one lean more foward into the knees, into Kidney 1, into the ground right so far before falling to the front?

 

very curious

 

Harry

[Yoda]

knees can be bent or naturally straight, weight can be over balls of feet, heels, or anywhere in between, eyes can be open or closed. Try them all and see what you like. I'm told you send out more energy into the earth if your weight is over the balls of the feet and you keep more if you balance midway between BOF and the heels.

 

-Y

[spyrelx]

Different sources will give different views on this, some say centered, some slightly back on the foot, some slightly forward. Some allow you're feet to be pointed out a bit, some say they must be straight.

 

I wouldn't be too concerned. The point is to find your own "center". As yoda says, experiment. You'll find that you gradually gravitate to a certain stance within the acceptable range.

 

Don't get too concerned about the knees over the feet thing. Just don't lock your legs straight (don't lock any joints).

 

Remember -- although some strain is involved in standing (othewise you'd collapse) -- the point is not to have tension. So if you find holding the "correct" position is causing a lot of tension, you should probably change the position a bit.

[GrandTrinity]

not too yin

 

not too yang

 

is the rule

 

make sure also

 

to put the hands in front of each dan tien, not just the middle, although that is the most extatic, most of the time

[DalTheJigsaw123]

So, there is such a thing as standing meditation?

[mat black]

So, there is such a thing as standing meditation?

Check the archives for "Zhan-Zhuang". Lin wrote a lot of good info about this a couple of years ago.

[Eternal_Student]

pelvis tucked under to allow for belly expansion.

back flat to move qi through the du channel.

shoulders dropped and forward to enhance curve of arms.

sternum dropped down to descend qi down ren channel.

 

upon inhalation into the dantien to collect qi, you focus on the yin channels of the legs and arms. feel yourself gripping the floor upward.

the yang channels are your exhalation focus. feel yourself extending down into your feet. you shift your focus as to which yang channel you wish to send qi down.

 

front- yangming/stomach channel

side- shaoyang/gallbladder channel

back- taiyang/bladder channel

 

alternate your weight upon the exhalation to move qi through each of the channels individually.

then work to move qi through them in total.

 

so yes to forward, yes to the side and yes to leaning back. depending on the situation!

[Aetherous]

Excellent post...thank you, Eternal Student.

[Gerard]

It doesn't matter where, just place both feet evenly on the ground and you'll rock back and forth until chi settles down into the ground. Chi itself will arrange your posture once you have passed the beginner's stage.

 

For initial correct posture, read this:

 

http://qi-journal.com/Qigong.asp?-Token.Fi...%20for%20Qigong

[joeblast]

O.k. Now that I have done standing meditation for a little while let me ask.

 

Where does one place the weight on the feet?

 

I know that one is not supposed to have the knees go over the toes...

 

but does one have the weight more to the heels (feeling like a weight is hanging right from the sacrum vertically down to the floor)... or does one lean more foward into the knees, into Kidney 1, into the ground right so far before falling to the front?

 

very curious

 

Harry

I find that I'm most centered, balanced, whatever you want to call it...when I am relaxed to the point where I am not exerting any muscular control about the ankles, and that indirectly involves the feet.

[DaoChild]

Once you do zhan zhaung daily you'll naturally notice where your body is most comfortable and uncomfortable.

 

Generally what I've read is to keep your weight centered between the balls of the feet (Yongqian point), and the heels.

 

Additionally, posture is often self-correcting too. If your butt is too far out, after 20 minutes you'll notice aches in your lower back. If it's properly centered, and you feel the crown being lifted up, you'll feel a solid straight presence in your spine.

[Ya Mu]

O.k. Now that I have done standing meditation for a little while let me ask.

 

Where does one place the weight on the feet?

 

I know that one is not supposed to have the knees go over the toes...

 

but does one have the weight more to the heels (feeling like a weight is hanging right from the sacrum vertically down to the floor)... or does one lean more foward into the knees, into Kidney 1, into the ground right so far before falling to the front?

 

very curious

 

Harry

 

Depends on what you are doing. For Stillness-Movement standing meditative qigong form, you will move through many different weight distributions because it is a dynamic rather than a static system. IMO this is much better than static as it will pump qi through all the channels without conscious effort.

[Old Man Contradiction]

IMO this is much better than static as it will pump qi through all the channels without conscious effort.

 

static implies the absence of movement. Pile standing has an incredible amount of even not-so-subtle but gross movement. I'm not puttin all my eggs into one basket, but I hear that zhan zhuang also pumps qi through all the channels.

 

IMO it is the conscious effort that connects the body and mind more and more.

[sheng zhen]

When I stand I have around 5-10 minutes of micro-corrections until I find my equilibrium. For every deeper level of relaxation I enter, I do some micro-correction because the body adjusts. When t.ex. I do a small correction in the hip, I also have to correct the balance at the feet, and the thorax, and the neck, and the shoulders. For every little correction I do I have to synchronize all other parts aswell. So it these micro-corrections make it micro-dynamic

 

But when I find the equilibrium I have to keep still. Completely still! Or, its not that I HAVE TO, its more the NATURAL thing to do because it feels so good and the body WANTS to. If I keep moving, even though its micro-movements, it would no longer be Zhan Zhuang. I would loose the stillness. The secret to Zhan Zhuang is stillness both in body and mind. If the body is not in stillness it would be another kind qi gong, different from Zhan Zhuang.

[Ya Mu]

static implies the absence of movement. Pile standing has an incredible amount of even not-so-subtle but gross movement. I'm not puttin all my eggs into one basket, but I hear that zhan zhuang also pumps qi through all the channels.

 

IMO it is the conscious effort that connects the body and mind more and more.

 

If you need to plant your feet just so, and keep them there, as some of the replies suggest, then it IS a static position.

[Old Man Contradiction]

When I stand I have around 5-10 minutes of micro-corrections until I find my equilibrium. For every deeper level of relaxation I enter, I do some micro-correction because the body adjusts. When t.ex. I do a small correction in the hip, I also have to correct the balance at the feet, and the thorax, and the neck, and the shoulders. For every little correction I do I have to synchronize all other parts aswell. So it these micro-corrections make it micro-dynamic

 

But when I find the equilibrium I have to keep still. Completely still! Or, its not that I HAVE TO, its more the NATURAL thing to do because it feels so good and the body WANTS to. If I keep moving, even though its micro-movements, it would no longer be Zhan Zhuang. I would loose the stillness. The secret to Zhan Zhuang is stillness both in body and mind. If the body is not in stillness it would be another kind qi gong, different from Zhan Zhuang.

 

I know that there are different ways to practice zhan zhuang. Wang Xiangzhai taught "stillness in movement, movement in stillness" within standing, not just stillness in stillness. So I assume that different schools have different ways.

 

If you need to plant your feet just so, and keep them there, as some of the replies suggest, then it IS a static position.

 

I think you might underestimate the body's ability. Although a city is in a static location, is it not also very alive and full of movement? According to your definition, the placement of your body in the room is static. However your entire body is moving, including the feet. That's just why I say dynamic, saying that the practice is static I feel is slightly misleading. This is an awfully lengthy explanation of the way i'm practicing and learning to practice zhan zhuang, which is different than the most popular way of practicing:

 

At first I'd visualize a tree I'm holding onto. Then I'd try to lift the tree. Obviously the tree is stronger than I am. So I try to incorporate every single muscle I can into this one action. You could be using your fingers to grip, your forearms to attempt at twisting the wrists upwards, biceps to bend arms up, triceps to connect the arms to the upperback, using your abdomen, perineum, and lower back to pull the upper back which pulls on the triceps/deltoids to lift the arms, while using a semi-twist of the hips to join the lower torso with the legs which are pressing against the earth to lift the whole body, which is trying to lift the tree. Meanwhile your neck is slightly being pulled down to connect with the shoulders to add a little bit more muscle mass to the movement. At first, in the midst of all this activity your skeleton might move a little, but your goal is to be able to move the muscle without moving the skeleton. This way your tendons get a far more focused exercise, they strengthen, and the time between the movement of your muscle and skeleton is shortened and shortened until they move simultaneously.

 

After my focus is strong, I'll add another movement... perhaps pushing the tree away. So now i'm lifting the tree with every muscle I can, as well as pushing the tree with every muscle I can. The new action is just as intricate and complicated as the last, using the entire body. Once I can focus on that, then I will add another action. For example I'll visualize a beach ball in between my arms, and I'll try to compress. Now I'm using every muscle possible to lift, every muscle possible to push, and every muscle possible to close. Creating a network or matrix of working muscle. It is essential to not create tension, to stay relaxed, and to pay attention. Also this is real, actual muscular work, not just visualization. As your ability to focus grows you add more and more actions, and are moving in every direction. Your mind is attentive and still. This, I believe, is one way to practice "movement in stillnesss, stillness in movement" and this is how the practice will never be complete and can progress over an entire lifetime.

 

In the regular standing like a tree position, someone good at this method can make his heartbeat rise to an exercised rate (approx. 160bpm) in just a few minutes without creating tension. You are training your body to be able to move with maximum force, as a whole unit, in every direction. I don't know from experience as I'm just beginning, but at higher levels I hear that you want to be able instantly change from one complicated matrix of multiple whole body actions to an entirely different matrix of multiple whole body actions, instantly. Your practice then becomes a constantly dynamic and spontaneous dance of internal movement. This is, to varying degrees, is characteristic of the internal martial arts. Internal movement is what is in the internal arts. At that level, you are basically controlling every muscle on a micro level as well as the macro level of intention. This is for health and combat.

 

Any mistakes here, are my own. This is what I've interpreted from reading articles and listening to my teacher. My experience verifies the most basic level of this practice. Minimal number of "actions", with minimal muscular work, minimal focus, and a poorly relaxed body. So honestly, I shouldn't be talking about this as I've only seen glimpses. Like Vivek the Homeless prophet, i'm kind of going out on a limb here.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[sheng zhen]

I know that there are different ways to practice zhan zhuang. Wang Xiangzhai taught "stillness in movement, movement in stillness" within standing, not just stillness in stillness. So I assume that different schools have different ways.

hmm, I dont know what you mean with "stillness in stillness" as opposed to "movement in stillness" in relation to what I said... Do you mean that when the body is still the mind should move and when the body moves the mind should be still, and that the body and mind should not both be still at the same time?

 

To me, when I practice, there is many things happening on many levels. For me, or more correctly "me", practicing stillness is just a way for me to get out of the way of nature. The qi moves when I am still. It moves without "me" interfering in its movements. Thats how I understand "movement in stillness". But if I am not still(in body and mind), my interference will limit the movements of qi to what my mind is able to accept.

 

I have not learned from Wang Xiangzhai, and not from his students either. So I don't really know what Wang Xiangzhai means with "stillness in movement, movement in stillness"...

Edited September 26, 2009 by sheng zhen

[Ya Mu]

I know that there are different ways to practice zhan zhuang. Wang Xiangzhai taught "stillness in movement, movement in stillness" within standing, not just stillness in stillness. So I assume that different schools have different ways.

I think you might underestimate the body's ability. Although a city is in a static location, is it not also very alive and full of movement? According to your definition, the placement of your body in the room is static. However your entire body is moving, including the feet. That's just why I say dynamic, saying that the practice is static I feel is slightly misleading. ...

 

I wasn't referring to your practice. If the entire body is moving that of course is dynamic. I was referring to the static placement of feet/sacrum/knees/arms/trunk, etc in a standing exercise. Some do this as described above, but the Stillness-Movement system does not. The qi moves every body part as it wants; therefore dynamic. And not only dynamic, but qi dynamic; in other words the qi is moving the body while the mind is removed from the equation.

[11:33]

Sunshine,

 

In our school, Shaolin Wahnam, the weight is even through the feet. The instructions are very simple. Assume the posture, and relax relax relax. The chi will flow and build naturally.

 

Like someone said earlier, you may appear to be still, but the chi is moving, and your body is technically still in a state of chi flow and is highly relaxed even though you may be in a relatively low stance like Golden Bridge. This is Flowingly Still.

[Old Man Contradiction]

hmm, I dont know what you mean with "stillness in stillness" as opposed to "movement in stillness" in relation to what I said... Do you mean that when the body is still the mind should move and when the body moves the mind should be still, and that the body and mind should not both be still at the same time?

 

To me, when I practice, there is many things happening on many levels. For me, or more correctly "me", practicing stillness is just a way for me to get out of the way of nature. The qi moves when I am still. It moves without "me" interfering in its movements. Thats how I understand "movement in stillness". But if I am not still(in body and mind), my interference will limit the movements of qi to what my mind is able to accept.

 

I have not learned from Wang Xiangzhai, and not from his students either. So I don't really know what Wang Xiangzhai means with "stillness in movement, movement in stillness"...

 

It's not a matter of should or shouldn't, because it's just the way i'm learning it, the way my teacher learned it and so on. Your way of practicing is equal in cultivation to mine, I feel, because both are of body and mind.

 

on GM Wang:

stillness of mind in the movement of body.

movement of muscle in the stillness of posture.

 

I mean it is all one thing..

 

and I'd bet this aint the only way to interpret it either. and I used to argue that this was the right way to stand, but now I know that for this way, you need the correct posture, still body and mind, and to totally relax, so obviously the other way is right too.

 

I wasn't referring to your practice. If the entire body is moving that of course is dynamic. I was referring to the static placement of feet/sacrum/knees/arms/trunk, etc in a standing exercise. Some do this as described above, but the Stillness-Movement system does not. The qi moves every body part as it wants; therefore dynamic. And not only dynamic, but qi dynamic; in other words the qi is moving the body while the mind is removed from the equation.

 

I was describing standing, aka zhan zhuang, which has almost none if any visible movement. There are different ways, and my ego felt compelled to say that not all zhan zhuang can be considered static, even if the body is not visibly moving.

 

I'm sorry Ya Mu for treading through your comment. The way we've learned is on completely opposite ends of the "dense matter-quantum" spectrum. When I hear qi, I think of physics. When others hear physics, they think of qi. The truth is it is one.

[sheng zhen]

on GM Wang:

stillness of mind in the movement of body.

movement of muscle in the stillness of posture.

I see. Thanks!

[Spectrum]

have a partner suspend a pendulum from the tip of the shoulder to the foot. observe the position of the pendulum standing erect. sink into wuji stance. observe the position of the pendulum again.

[Biff]

If the question is really sincere, then the answer is find a teacher. Such a generic question cannot be answered in a thread with accuracy. There are many different standing postures. It will take years to perfect any of them.

 

Standing works by creating a condition in the body where energy is created. For example when toes are slightly in, and knees bent slightly out the meridians in your legs are stretched. A condition is created. Further more, when the spine is floating and erect and the tongue is on the pallet, circuits are created and a condition conducive to building energy is met. If you can stand for 3 + hours a day you will become superhuman in strength. But most people here are jokers... one system to the next lol. If it hasn't worked in a few months then find another school.

 

Standing deserves much respect and is neglected so much. The only thing that can be said as a lesson in certainty is that it must be approached with long term training in mind like you are filling a barrel with water from an egg cup. Just as important as 'position' is persistence. The key to all energy practice is persistence and consistency (assuming practice is perfect). It's better to do 10 minutes a day then 3 hours one day a week. Depends again on the system.

[11:33]

@Biff,

 

Well said.

 

But, I don't even think my Sifu does 3 hours standing in our school, hehe. 3 hours Golden Bridge would be amazing.

[Spectrum]

have a partner suspend a pendulum from the tip of the shoulder to the foot. observe the position of the pendulum standing erect. sink into wuji stance. observe the position of the pendulum again.

 

you do not need a teacher to experiment w/ stillness and movement. the first rule is simple observation; relax and let things happen naturally. you need not force anything, you are happening without effort.

 

by finding training methods that initiate your own bodies memory path to wuji you are 'conditioning' your nervous response to a load or "gung" into synergetically balancing tension and compression throughout the body. balancing the load throughout the whole instead of "bearing" the load. What is being practiced is transitioning the physical center of gravity to a lower position in precisely the same fashion as during fight flight, so regardless of what you 'believe' to be occuring in the body, the physical center of gravity is lowered, a state of readiness created, and a psychophysical response is experienced, often described as "the moment".

 

What i enjoy about two person practice is learning the space between possibility and execution in a single exchange of moments. imagination i believe being the key to unlocking the continuos routes of applied martial art in motion.

 

What seems to 'ideally' occur for me during form practice(after warming up), and is more readily experienced during partner drills and sparring is an in the now conflict resolution. to well being, a general feel good step. The use of the total organism to direct and redirect movement manufique into circular transitions coinciding w/ the intersecting horizontal vectors presented by movement with another body. This does not start with overcoming obsticles, but simple neutralizing, ie grounding horizontal forces. Through the playing out of physical psychology the student of physical culture learns to first dissolve conflict physically through the problem solving methods of physical combat, and hopefully learns to use the successful patterns learned training the senses to compell the physical body into a tandom dissolution of psychphysiological conflict within themselves resulting in a more continuous state of relaxed readiness and well being.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Spectrum