Reason for Ethics and not FREEDOM DESIRED

[YMWong]

I cannot see what is so funny. What I am doing is posting and sharing stuff just like how I did here on the radio station every week to share taoism info for the public. I do not see how you are benefitcial to the others in the forum, a zhen yi student?

 

You are selling popular believes for Daoism to make money, which is already not good in itself.

 

To do this you pretend to be what you are not and when questioned on specific issues you simply avoid replying and try to attack back whomever questions you.

 

Talking to you it's of course 嘥氣 (a waste of time) but if it helps let people see your real face I am still available for discussion.

 

Be well, my dear daoist

 

YM

[picnic]

My master has no name. My master is nothing, my master is not a master, and would never take the role of master. My master is not above or below. My master comes to me every time I step up, and it brings me down, Every time I am down, it brings me up. When I am right it has nothing to say to me. So I know best when I do not know. And I know not when I know. Except that I am not I.

 

The Stiller I am, the more I see. You hear? I smell my eyes. You touch my ground, I am the ground, you taste my vision?

[JackSquat]

Mak Tin Si, if good and evil are equally part of the Tao, and there is the capacity for evil in every human being, mightn't there be those whose job on Earth is to be evil? Are you saying that the Tao cannot be realized through darkness? Doesn't the tree of life grow downward with the same purpose that it grows upward?

 

It would seem that here in this thread we have some who feel that their job is to teach, some who feel that their job is to question the teacher, some who feel it is their job to expose the truth, and some who are reading this whole discussion right now but not getting involved, and so on. Each of us follows our own heart, each one beating out a different rhythm, every one with its place in the symphony of the Tao. Does this not make ethics relative? Is there not a degree of evil in each of these goods, and vise versa? To be enlightened, must we not accept the blackness in ourselves as well as the light?

 

It took me years to realize that at heart, I was a good person. As you mentioned, I had to become better than my parents to overcome my past. Such has been my path thus far. However, that does not mean that I want to impose my ethics on anyone else. I am what I am, and you are what you are, and I wouldn't assume that you should be me or anyone should be anyone else. That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion or won't tell you what I think, but again, that's just who I am. If you believe in ethics, that is fine, and quite frankly I don't give a damn about your lineage either way or what the "true" way to be a Taoist is or isn't; for my own part, I would just like to know why you believe as you do, and how you would answer my numerous questions . These answers are the ones that will tell me what I want to know.

 

 

What say you all that we put the argument on grounds of theory instead of lineage?

 

"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."

~Eleanor Roosevelt

 

No hard feelings, anybody

[Unconditioned]

Who said I am a Zhen Yi student? Zhen Yi was passed onto me from Zhang DaoLing also, so I do have the knowledge of ZhenYi in my branch of Chi in Nature, but I am not their 'student'.

 

Does Dragon-Tiger mountain ONLY have Zhen Yi??? Please do more research on history. What you are knowing right now is what the government maade and control of in china. not in Taoism.

 

Taoist who are approved in Zhen Yi now are only named from the GOVERNMENT in China. Not Taoism.

add on point -

You can even check, the 64th tin si is prooved FAKE now. 'finally'

 

But since long time ago, they already have problems in that ZhenYi branch. I am not rude enough to tell you waht happen but good luck if you are leanring those government controlled sect.

add on point -

You can even check, the 64th tin si is prooved FAKE now. 'finally'

 

But since long time ago, they already have problems in that ZhenYi branch. I am not rude enough to tell you waht happen but good luck if you are leanring those government controlled sect.

 

Interesting, I have one question though and it applies to any and all systems, techniques, etc. buddhist, christian, taoist, doesn't matter: if the Tao is unknowable, untouchable, unable to be experienced by any sense including mind, how then can one grasp to a system and claim to know Tao?

 

To know the Tao, the way of nature itself, one has to let go of all things, including systems, lineage, their masters, beliefs, rituals, thoughts, no? Once we fix our awareness on any thought past or future we are seeing a creation of the mind based on our perceptions.

 

Every method must be dropped. Every perception must be dropped for true clarity to be experienced. Then how does a system with so many nuances, special techniques, etc. help us? That too must be dropped. I prefer to find my own food, chew on it, and digest it rather than someone chewing it for me, putting it in my mouth, and helping it down to my stomach.

 

Just my two cents.

[YMWong]

[...] Every method must be dropped. Every perception must be dropped for true clarity to be experienced. [...]

 

Yes, everything must be dropped - but before you drop something you must have it first.

 

It is easy for somebody who is extremely poor to drop the greed for money, but the process asks for you to get rich first. Drop your money then and you might be on the right path.

 

YM

[Unconditioned]

Yes, everything must be dropped - but before you drop something you must have it first.

 

It is easy for somebody who is extremely poor to drop the greed for money, but the process asks for you to get rich first. Drop your money then and you might be on the right path.

 

YM

 

Interesting point... but I'm not sure I understand. If I am already poor why do I need to gain wealth just to drop it? Is it the experience of letting go that is important? If we're already close to our destination do we need to run far from it then back to it?

 

As we have insightful moments, don't we shed layers of our conditioning eventually leaving us completely bare?

 

I'm asking not to provoke but because I do not understand, thank you

[YMWong]

Interesting point... but I'm not sure I understand. If I am already poor why do I need to gain wealth just to drop it? Is it the experience of letting go that is important? If we're already close to our destination do we need to run far from it then back to it?

 

As we have insightful moments, don't we shed layers of our conditioning eventually leaving us completely bare?

 

You can actually read it in many ways.

 

If u meditate u shall know how it is 'easy' to calm down in the proper environment: for me that's a quiet, silent, almost dark evening.

But what if u need to meditate in a crowdy place ?

What if u want to 'meditate' in your daily life ?

 

Another reading.

For somebody who is compassionate and wants to help others, the poor for instance, do u think it is wiser to go to Africa with the Missionaries and help running a home for the poor or getting to a successfull business career and make a lot of money ?

 

In my opinion, u are hardly 'close to your destination' if your goal is dropping everything when u have little of nothing to drop. Except of course if u get there after having had a lot.

 

It is the same in every Art.

The painter studies the technique of painting with a master for many years, copies the works of famous painters of the past as close as possible to the original. Once he gets there, once he possesses the ability THEN he can let it go and let his soul come out.

Check the works of a young and old Picasso and you'll see what I mean.

You cannot simply let go the *technique* of painting before you have mastered it.

 

Nice talking to u

 

YM

[benny]

My master has no name. My master is nothing, my master is not a master, and would never take the role of master. My master is not above or below. My master comes to me every time I step up, and it brings me down, Every time I am down, it brings me up. When I am right it has nothing to say to me. So I know best when I do not know. And I know not when I know. Except that I am not I.

 

The Stiller I am, the more I see. You hear? I smell my eyes. You touch my ground, I am the ground, you taste my vision?

 

BEAUTIFUL! You know!

[Starjumper]

BEAUTIFUL! You know!

 

No, and neither do you.

 

Every method must be dropped. Every perception must be dropped for true clarity to be experienced. Then how does a system with so many nuances, special techniques, etc. help us? That too must be dropped. I prefer to find my own food, chew on it, and digest it rather than someone chewing it for me, putting it in my mouth, and helping it down to my stomach.

 

You won't get too far.

[宁]

BEAUTIFUL! You know!

 

Ah the innocence of young mind! You may think you're special, but there's a "Benny" at every corner of the street. FREE MEAL is the ancient dream of humanity. Maybe we'll get there someday, but no reason to impose a fantasy on real life right now... Take care

 

L1

[Unconditioned]

You won't get too far.

 

I have nowhere to go, nothing to accumulate... just to tear down illusion, to stay centered in the present moment not worrying about the future or contemplating the past. In short - to be the subject without labeling it as an object thus liberating my being from the relentless labeling of the mind, freeing my being from living in a world of interpretations and allowing it to be free to BE. I have no better way of describing this.

 

So with all due respect, your negative words don't affect me nor should anyones. At the end of the day, we walk this path alone and must figure out life on our own otherwise we are just parrots repeating but not being aware.

 

YM, as a musician should I imitate every other guitarist before attempting to let my inner self manifest through music? That seems like an awful waste of time when I can let go right now and create at this very moment.

 

Perhaps the core of this discussion is 'suddon' vs. 'gradual' ... I don't know.

 

Anyhow, thank you for the replies.

 

All the best,

Nate

 

Edit: YM, I think to some degree I understand your artist analogy. I've been a musician since the age of 5 and when I play I am not thinking of technique, where my fingers are where they'll go next, I am just playing. Perhaps it took the years of practice to get there. I've had no formal teacher, just my ear and persistence, things that I've been given at birth. Every 'discovery' musically has had a very deep meaning to me. I do not know if it would be the same if I were told about the things I discovered on my own from a teacher. Perhaps I'm deluding myself thinking this is a better way and wasting time by not having a teacher, who knows? But to use an over used phrase, we must be careful not to confuse the map for the territory. Many maps, only one territory. To each our own, thank you for the replies.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Unconditioned