The Tao, Enlightement & Martial Arts

[hyok]

First, may I say that being on this forum has been quite an educational experience in the grandest sense. I've been on other "metaphysical" type forums and witnessed a population of people that i'd describe as zealously desirous of being different, and those who seem excessively poetic in their vague descriptions of their knowledge. This forum seems to have a nice balance of objectivity, humility and just plain old being human as well as a bit of awkwardness, which can be a real delight.

 

I've noticed though that there is a triangular focus within the subject matters that are discussed here. Namely, as the topic states, the Tao, the search for enlightenment and martial arts. For me, it has been nothing but the search for enlightenment and most recently the Tao, whereas martial arts is pretty much not in my scope of interests (at the moment). I am wondering if anyone can explain the relevance of martial arts, and even Taiji, in terms of inner-cultivation and enlightenment as well as the Tao.

 

For example, I have been in a good number of fights in my lifetime, and in most cases won the fights but I never have had any martial arts training. Of course, these fights occurred when I was mostly a teenager and in college, but since then I have had absolutely zero conflicts come my way in my post-graduate years (i'm 35 now). In my experience, the guy starting sheet on the street most likely does not know how to fight. So I'm wondering, is the interest in martial arts purely for the sake of appreciating physical self-defense skills? Or am i missing something more?

 

I guess what i'm looking for, if there is one, is a unifying theory that includes martial arts as a piece of the puzzle.

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

[SiliconValley]

I've been on other "metaphysical" type forums and witnessed a population of people that i'd describe as zealously desirous of being different, and those who seem excessively poetic in their vague descriptions of their knowledge.

 

 

Ha ha! Loved the way you put it! And many times, there really is no content in a 20-part post written in an overtly flowery language. We've seen that here as well

[Spirit Ape]

Well my martial art Hun Yuan Yi Qi Zhuang is based off Universe and looks like a Daoist Ritual as it draws Yin Yang shapes with its feet, body, hands with visualizations i think a Martial Art espcially internal arts can reach Tao or Enlightenment through stillness and movement!

 

regards

Ape

[Standingpost]

I understand exactly what you mean.

 

I began training in taijiquan about a year and a half ago, and only wanted some excersize and perhaps a little self defense training just in case.

 

As it turns out, everything we do in class and are encouraged to do on our own has finding taoist elightenment as a goal.

 

The forms themselves are type of qigong in addition to having martial applications. We seek to find perfect balance in our structure and use many excersizes to get there, many of which would be equally at home in a course of trancendental meditation or a yoga class.

 

There is a lot more to it as well, but it gets complicated. Things like developing energy within the body and understanding it in relation to taoist philosophy. Like one whole energy, splitting into yin and yang in the physical plane, then splitting again till we have peng, lu, gi and an. Which have a role in understanding the universe, but are also physical movements that have self defense applications if done properly (internally).

 

Hope that helps a little, just my current perspective on it.

[dwai]

First, may I say that being on this forum has been quite an educational experience in the grandest sense. I've been on other "metaphysical" type forums and witnessed a population of people that i'd describe as zealously desirous of being different, and those who seem excessively poetic in their vague descriptions of their knowledge. This forum seems to have a nice balance of objectivity, humility and just plain old being human as well as a bit of awkwardness, which can be a real delight.

 

I've noticed though that there is a triangular focus within the subject matters that are discussed here. Namely, as the topic states, the Tao, the search for enlightenment and martial arts. For me, it has been nothing but the search for enlightenment and most recently the Tao, whereas martial arts is pretty much not in my scope of interests (at the moment). I am wondering if anyone can explain the relevance of martial arts, and even Taiji, in terms of inner-cultivation and enlightenment as well as the Tao.

 

For example, I have been in a good number of fights in my lifetime, and in most cases won the fights but I never have had any martial arts training. Of course, these fights occurred when I was mostly a teenager and in college, but since then I have had absolutely zero conflicts come my way in my post-graduate years (i'm 35 now). In my experience, the guy starting sheet on the street most likely does not know how to fight. So I'm wondering, is the interest in martial arts purely for the sake of appreciating physical self-defense skills? Or am i missing something more?

 

I guess what i'm looking for, if there is one, is a unifying theory that includes martial arts as a piece of the puzzle.

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

Hi Hyok,

 

The school I am a student of, clearly states that there are 4 levels of Tai Chi practice.

 

1) Martial Arts

2) Healing

3) Personal Transformation

4) Merging with the Tao

 

They are also considered to be the bottom up in the order of evolution/level of Tai Chi practice, with Martial Arts being the lowest and Merging with the Tao being the highest.

 

Best,

 

Dwai

[Taiji Bum]

Taijiquan moves qi through out the body much like accupuncture stimulates qi, but on a larger scale. Standing meditation builds/strengthens/gathers your qi and taijiquan teaches you how to move it. The more qi you have moving through your body the healthier you are and the easier enlighenment will come... and thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Mal]

[fiveelementtao]

First we need to make a distinction between internal and external martial arts. external MA would be primarily physical arts like western boxing or wrestling. As you get older these arts become more difficult because of the strain on the body. Taoists favor internal martial arts because they use internal energy to achieve their objective

Besides healing and peace of mind, Taoists also sought long life and immortality. For a Taoist, it is important to achieve immortality because, if one dies before reaching enlightenment, that means he/she may have to be reborn and may have to start all over again. It is better to stay in one body as long as possible to reach your goal more quickly.

In order to achieve long life and immortality, one needs to be able to manage and control internal energy. Internal martial arts are a superb way to learn how to gather, harness and increase internal energy.

In order for the internal art to be effective, one must be able to verifiably be able to use the internal energy they have accumulated and stored.

So, taoist martial arts are not just about fighting, but internal alchemy.

 

Secondly, internal martial arts also teach a way of achieving a dynamic balance mentally, physically and spiritually. Additionally, in China over the centuries ther have been periods where the government has persecuted spiritual movements and practitioners, so it became necessary for taoists to be able to defend themselves.

[Mal]

First we need to make a distinction between internal and external martial arts.

 

Why? I don't really like the internal / external distinction. I've seen really old karate people who are soft and flowing. As well as fat unhealthy tai chi people

 

I prefer a "complete art" which should integrate both the internal and external aspects..... Internal VS external tends to turn into a "mine is better than yours" debate.

 

The aspects you talk about are important and should be present in a complete traditional system IMHO.

[fiveelementtao]

Why? I don't really like the internal / external distinction. I've seen really old karate people who are soft and flowing. As well as fat unhealthy tai chi people

 

I prefer a "complete art" which should integrate both the internal and external aspects..... Internal VS external tends to turn into a "mine is better than yours" debate.

 

The aspects you talk about are important and should be present in a complete traditional system IMHO.

The distinction only needs to be made in the context of the original question posed on this thread.

I am wondering if anyone can explain the relevance of martial arts, and even Taiji, in terms of inner-cultivation and enlightenment as well as the Tao.

 

My intent was to only answer why martial arts are important in relation to inner alchemy in taoism. internal MAs are very helpful in chi cultivation. I was not trying to make a statement of superiority between one or another...

[adam mizner]

hi

 

i practice and teach full time, that is really all i do, and rest. teaching is a part of practice. here is the thing, i cannot sit in samadhi all day, so when not sitting i find taiji and chi gong a great way to keep practicing. so it is a practicle thing for me. i have also found taiji and chi gong a great way to practice and test ones skills developed in magical/meditative work.

 

also teaching taiji means i dont have to charge to teach Dhamma. if any ego arises in the form of desire to attain then i let go of what i can and channel the rest into my taiji keeping it out of my work for enlightenment.

 

all this said i dont seperate, all my training has the same goal, the deathless.

 

metta

adam

 

First, may I say that being on this forum has been quite an educational experience in the grandest sense. I've been on other "metaphysical" type forums and witnessed a population of people that i'd describe as zealously desirous of being different, and those who seem excessively poetic in their vague descriptions of their knowledge. This forum seems to have a nice balance of objectivity, humility and just plain old being human as well as a bit of awkwardness, which can be a real delight.

 

I've noticed though that there is a triangular focus within the subject matters that are discussed here. Namely, as the topic states, the Tao, the search for enlightenment and martial arts. For me, it has been nothing but the search for enlightenment and most recently the Tao, whereas martial arts is pretty much not in my scope of interests (at the moment). I am wondering if anyone can explain the relevance of martial arts, and even Taiji, in terms of inner-cultivation and enlightenment as well as the Tao.

 

For example, I have been in a good number of fights in my lifetime, and in most cases won the fights but I never have had any martial arts training. Of course, these fights occurred when I was mostly a teenager and in college, but since then I have had absolutely zero conflicts come my way in my post-graduate years (i'm 35 now). In my experience, the guy starting sheet on the street most likely does not know how to fight. So I'm wondering, is the interest in martial arts purely for the sake of appreciating physical self-defense skills? Or am i missing something more?

 

I guess what i'm looking for, if there is one, is a unifying theory that includes martial arts as a piece of the puzzle.

 

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Gerard]

In my case, and I said it few times already, what it working wonders so far is this combo:

 

Bagua (Taoist energetic, high level neigong and martial art).

 

+

 

Vipassana (Buddhist method devised by the Buddha to attain nirvana).

 

That makes me a Taoist and a Buddhist at the same time.

 

Love both and respect deeply all the masters, teachers and the Buddha for sharing these amazing practices with the rest of humanity.

 

 

[doc benway]

I don't think you'll find a single, unifying theory, just individual experiences or opinions.

Here's a brief overview of the integration of martial arts and cultivation for me:

 

I started martial arts training as a child because of an ex-military uncle's influence. It was all about self-defense, competition, and physical fitness in the beginning. Over time it became a real source of psychological/emotional/spiritual strength in addition to the physical benefits. In my 20's and 30's I played around a bit with meditation but nothing serious - mostly martial training for fitness and self-defense.

 

When I hit ~ 40 years of age, I could no longer keep up with the young guys in the hard stuff (I was in a school at the time that focused mainly only full contact training methods) so I got into the internal stuff. After a few years studying Taijiquan, my teacher suggested Daoist meditation practice. Now the cultivation aspects are much more important to me than the martial aspects but the combination of internal Chinese martial arts and Daoist cultivation methods complement each other very well for a combination of physical, mental, and spiritual development. I still focus a lot of my attention on training the martial aspects of Taijiquan. In part this is due to the belief that a true understanding and maximum benefit from the art must include a comprehensive training approach, not simply the forms. Ultimately, however, what's important to me is more the overall development above and beyond just the martial aspects.

 

I hope that helps in some way. Ultimately, you might want to consider trying out some training in one of the internal arts and see how it resonates with you.

[Mal]

The distinction only needs to be made in the context of the original question posed on this thread.

My intent was to only answer why martial arts are important in relation to inner alchemy in taoism. internal MAs are very helpful in chi cultivation. I was not trying to make a statement of superiority between one or another...

 

Cool, my misunderstanding.

 

Cheers _/\_

[adam mizner]

hi durkhrod

 

it seems to me that vipassana is not a method as much as a result. if you refer to the pali cannon you will see that the Buddha always says go practice jhana not go practice vipassana. a mind made powerful by the practice of jhana reflecting with discernment has insight or vipassana as the result, this vipassana leads to unbinding.

 

of course this is the theravada view, modern schools have other ideas

 

metta

adam

 

In my case, and I said it few times already, what it working wonders so far is this combo:

 

Bagua (Taoist energetic, high level neigong and martial art).

 

+

 

Vipassana (Buddhist method devised by the Buddha to attain nirvana).

 

That makes me a Taoist and a Buddhist at the same time.

 

Love both and respect deeply all the masters, teachers and the Buddha for sharing these amazing practices with the rest of humanity.