thoughts

[Lozen]

Okay, so I know that in Buddhism they say that your thoughts are more important than your actions, the actions are just the icing on the cake. So if I think I want to throw a pencil at someone, I am accountable for having that thought, whether or not I actually throw the pencil.

 

I was wondering what it is in Taoism, if anybody knows.

 

I'm confused b/c lately I've been able to read other people's thoughts, and they can read mine. Uncannily so. So I wonder if I could really cause psychic damage to someone by thinking in my head that I really don't like the color shirt they're wearing (or whatever), whether or not I actually say it.

 

On the other hand, this thought may be the result of meglomaniacal fantasies. Because I know that in self-defense/offense situations, REALLY WANTING something to happen or visualizing it ain't gonna make it so.

[mbanu]

Okay, so I know that in Buddhism they say that your thoughts are more important than your actions, the actions are just the icing on the cake. So if I think I want to throw a pencil at someone, I am accountable for having that thought, whether or not I actually throw the pencil.

 

I was wondering what it is in Taoism, if anybody knows.

 

I'm confused b/c lately I've been able to read other people's thoughts, and they can read mine. Uncannily so. So I wonder if I could really cause psychic damage to someone by thinking in my head that I really don't like the color shirt they're wearing (or whatever), whether or not I actually say it.

 

On the other hand, this thought may be the result of meglomaniacal fantasies. Because I know that in self-defense/offense situations, REALLY WANTING something to happen or visualizing it ain't gonna make it so.

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I'd say it's option #2. Kinda like my friend who would never bring an umbrella with her when it got cloudy because she thought that if she did it would rain.

[Cameron]

I disagree with what you said about Buddhism. Although probaly some teachers say this I think having a thought about something is not even remotely close to action. Ok, I just thought about killing someone. I took a shotgun and blew there head off. I even put some anger into it, is that anything like taking a real person's life..no.

 

Thoughts definetly have energy behind them so you don't want to be thinking bad thoughts often . Actually, from my udnerstadning the real Zen thing is not to have good thoughts or bad thougts but to go beyond thought . Ken Cohen says only by giving up both positive AND negative thinking do you become truly positve. He is a Taoist priest so think that is a good source for your question.

 

the Tao Te Ching says to "Empty the mind and fill the belly". I always thought this was the quintessential, to the point idea of Taoism or Qigong. Empty your mind of concepts, including discriminative thinking and ideas of right or wrong, and you see clearly. You see clearly.

 

And from what I can gather Buddhism is basically saying the same thing except they introduce the idea of merit or virtue which is basically trying not to think bad thoughts, be giving, don't steal etc. But from the Taoist perspective all this may be artifical or contrived. Taoists seem to be about direct experience and oneness with nature. Not forcefully establishing rules of conduct or behavior.

 

Anyhoo...

[Lozen]

Maybe not all Buddhism. Just the Dalai Lama, Thich Nath Hanh, Choya Trungpa Rinpoche, and every other Buddhist writer or teacher I have ever heard speak or read books by. They say intent/thoughts and watching those, that is more important than the actual action.

 

Anyways, I didn't ask whether or not I should be thinking bad thoughts. I was just asking what kind of effect that has on the other person.

 

I disagree that Buddhism is saying to give up your mind of thoughts of good and evil. By introducing the idea of merit or virtue and speaking about not thinking bad thoughts, they are very much playing into the idea of good and evil.

[Yoda]

In Buddhism, karma means impulse or intent and the intent is what it's all about. Obviously, if you just think about killing somebody and you don't even raise your voice with them, then the intent to kill isn't very strong. If you find yourself standing over a dead body with a smoking gun in your hand, then your intent was stronger. So it's more of a shades of grey thing.

 

The first step is to throw away the gun and stop killing people, then to stop beating them, then to stop yelling at them, and finally to stop thinking ill will towards them.

 

Buddhism is more philosophical and psychological than taoism, so I doubt that you'll find this sort of thinking as spelled out.

 

Cool to ponder, but if it's bothersome toss it.

 

Hang on to a philosophy that makes you feel bad will make you feel like killing someone!

 

-Yoda

[el_tortugo]

The first step is to throw away the gun and stop killing people, then to stop beating them, then to stop yelling at them, and finally to stop thinking ill will towards them.

 

 

-Yoda

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would it be alright if i just beat them without thought?

[Lozen]

I guess though that what's been happening with me is that I've been sensing things people say before they say them, but they DO say them. And just being much more accurate than usual about who just e-mailed me, who left me a message, and what the person I am speaking to is about to say. So it seems that I can read their thoughts, but maybe it is because the intent is strong enough in that they do eventually say it, or something.

 

I wonder why I am more psychic all of a sudden. It is either the past life work (doubtful) or maybe what that Warrior School guy told me about getting really strong physically will help the spiritual not overwhelm you and you be more in tune with it was really true (I have my doubts about this as well...always doubting.)

[peter falk]

psychic development is a natural process with all cultivation work. just practicing the awarenenss you learned at tracker school will have remarkable results in this area. much of it, surprisingly, comes from jsut the physical aspects of tracking and awareness, including knowing people's thoughts.

 

as far as thought goes, these thoughts have thinkers. the thinkers are various and numerous psychic elements in the ego. these are the unintegrated aspects of your psyche. your psyche is fragmented into these elements. these fragments are alienated from your true being. that is to say, they are polarized withthe world instead of the spirit, or tao. as you integrate them, they repolarize with the tao and cease putting random thoughts in your head.

 

the problem iwth most mediation is that it only quiets these elements, it doesn't repolarize them, transform them. it only quiets them so that you can achieve an elevated state of awareness or bliss. then you return to the same state as prior to mediation withthe same problems and distarctios, except you've gained some knowledge perhpas fromt he meditation.

 

specific methods are needed to achieve the transformation. it begins with keen and incisive self-observation to gain awareness of these elements and how they operate. they must also be linke dto others withwhich they act as a team to distarct you.

 

michale winn gives some good methods for dealing with these inthe fusion and kan and li work, though he doesn't give it the emphasis it probably deserves. once you find the elements and their polarization with the world--in other words what they like about it--you can then find the corresponding opposite polarity in spirit and realign the element.

 

it's not merely and intellectual process like i am making it sound like; it's a profoudn and spiritual one that takes place on many levels: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, etc.

 

in order to observe and discover all the elemtns, you must place yourself in some kind of "gymnasium," a psychological gymnasium, adversity. tom brown does this with scout class. that is his best gymnasium for dealing withthe ego. that is the pupose of that class. to uncover the secret enemy lurking within your own psche. in other words, the psychological work on the ego is the spiritual conterpart of the scout class. in my opinion. there is a lot of coyote teaching here.

 

gudjieff also discusses this work extensively and you can find his stuff about it, written mostly by his students. i don't have aything handy right now in china.

 

so have at it. enjoy tracking yourslef in your own mind. in taoism, the doorwayto this work is the 5 shen. they will show you the way. it is not accidental at al that they are symbolized with animals.

[Lozen]

I guess I'm practicing awareness I'm getting from working with the blade... Somehow it's seemed to speed things up.

 

What's the fifth shen?

 

I'm not going back to TS for a bunch of reasons, but we do deal with adversity in some of my other training.

 

I wonder if the past life work is helping with integration.

 

Who the heck is Gudjieff?

[peter falk]

I guess I'm practicing awareness I'm getting from working with the blade... Somehow it's seemed to speed things up.

 

What's the fifth shen?

 

I'm not going back to TS for a bunch of reasons, but we do deal with adversity in some of my other training.

 

I wonder if the past life work is helping with integration.

 

Who the heck is Gudjieff?

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i don't know what 4 shen you have already......

 

loads of stuff on google about gurdieff