vipassana / Goenka.. retreat thoughts

[modestman]

Hello

 

I've been reading the book 'mindfulness in plain english' - it is a real good book and very straight forward. I have interest in Vipassana and have looked into the Goenka retreat since it is one of the only vipassana retreats I could find information on.

 

The thing is, I am very skeptical about this method. I feel that many people have gone to these retreats and came back with a sense of worship of Goenka. To me this is the exact opposite of what Vipassana is. I feel the mere image of this retreat is 'weird'. I am NOT saying it isn't beneficial, because the main components of this retreat are very rewarding (developing patience, and mental strength). Now I find many people reporting hallucinogenic occurances, which I do not understand. Yes, Vipassana is a very powerful method of meditation but I believe the monks and traditional buddhists have a very different view on this than that of Goenka.

 

Basically what I'm getting at is I want to learn more about vipassana as I think it can be a very helpful meditation tool, but just the idea of Goenka attaching his name to the method leads me to wonder a little bit. Basically people are glorifiying this retreat experience or reporting horror stories. I'm wondering have any of you tao-ists have any views on this topic. Also would you recommend I learn Vipassana from a Buddhist or Zen temple (there are a couple near me).

 

Cheers

[doc benway]

I don't know anything about Goenka but this is a good resource for retreat info:

http://dharma.org/ims/

[Dainin]

I'm not sure where you live, but here's another vipassana retreat center: Spirit Rock

 

In regard to your last question, in my opinion it would be a good idea to learn it from a local sangha before jumping into a 10 day day retreat. You will then find out if the practice appeals to you. On the other hand some people might say it is better to have no preconceptions beforehand, and that would lead to greater transformative potential.

 

You probably won't find vipassana being taught at a zen temple. Most practice zazen, although some do use certain techniques associated with vipassana such as labelling. Good luck on your journey!

[modestman]

Thanks a lot for the reply

 

I've actually been second guessing myself on the retreat as currenlty my meditations can not last more than 10 minutes as I get an stiffness in my neck Anyone know how to help with this, it is really bothersome.

 

Once I resolve this problem i'm probably going to sign up. I've heard it being almost hypnotic (which I don't really like) but I think the 10 days in silence by itself will have a significant reward.

Edited November 29, 2008 by modestman

[Flowingwater]

Hello Modestman, about the Vipassana, not to sure why people are worshipping Goenka....this makes me laugh..haha.

His discourses were certainly interesting and gave insight into the technique through humourous anicdotes. But this is certainly no reason to worship the man, as that is all he is.

People choose to worship whatever they like and Goenka would certainly react to this with something like ' Drop the attachment ' as I suppose if one was worshipping another it would be a form of attachment.

In this ones experience, jumping right into the course was good.........and bad. But one chooses this, and what is good, when there is no bad??

As for the stiff neck - in the Vipassana meditation, any kind of sensation, whether it be a stiff neck, tingling, heat or whatever, is just that - a sensation and steams from an emotional attachment or craving or aversion.....so once you realise this, pooffff!!, it may just disappear. All distractions to the higher purpose of this technique. It could also just be a true physical problem.

 

Danin certainly has a valid point, perhaps it's worth investigating first, instead of jumping right into the deep end.

Hope this helps - Be happy

 

- Flowingwater

[modestman]

Thanks for the reply's...

 

Yes, that was what I was concerned about all these people worshiping Goenka! I was wondering if his courses are meant for that. I think I will be fine in that aspect as I tend to just pickup on the message that the people are delivering whether it be Buddhism or Taoism I just take the concept and have respect for the teacher but do not worship him as a God. As for the stiff neck, it could be a 'sensation' or whatever but I highly doubt it. My mind is really quiet to begin with and I do avoid the discomfort but only to find it getting worse as I continue. I guess I will go to the chiropracter and see if he can fix it up.

 

Cheers

Edited November 29, 2008 by modestman

[Ya Mu]

Thanks a lot for the reply

 

I've actually been second guessing myself on the retreat as currenlty my meditations can not last more than 10 minutes as I get an stiffness in my neck Anyone know how to help with this, it is really bothersome.

 

Once I resolve this problem i'm probably going to sign up. I've heard it being almost hypnotic (which I don't really like) but I think the 10 days in silence by itself will have a significant reward.

 

If your meditation is a cultivation form or even if it is not it sounds like your qi has gotten stuck in your neck. Going to the chiropractor may help but it could be temporary. I would suggest an internal system that includes methodology for removing any stuck or stagnant qi.

 

I had a client once who practiced a form of Vipassana who was supposedly taught by a "master" in India. Her symptoms were that she/he would black out when concentrating on anything, such as driving, reading a book, or watching TV. I "saw" her energy field had an immense hole out from her forehead (this was before she mentioned the techniques she used). When I asked her what in the world she was doing energetically she said that their meditation included "projecting energy from 3rd eye to the world for for healing". WHen I told her that the only way she could possibly recover was to quit doing that she refused, saying, "but I learned from a "Master". I then asked her, "a Master of what, did he do healings?" "no" "Did he help people in any way?" "no, but I paid a lot to learn this". I then told her that I could not help her.

The moral of this is know what you are getting into when you decide to study with ANY teacher.

[modestman]

interesting I never thought of that.

 

Well I'm not performing any third-eye or healing meditations, I'm just basically focusing on my breath and obtaining a clear mind. What are some methods to remove qi from neck?

 

If this helps I can kind of compare how my neck feels. When I do situps a certain way my neck also gets like this it feels really tense as If little to no air is getting up through it and it is stiff but i find if i do an alternate way of doing a sit up it no longer bothers me. I can also feel my neck getting stiffer in the meditation I bring my attention to it and just watch. It feels as if it is some sort of gland behind my ears which get tense and stiffen.

 

If anyone can recommend a meditation or exercise that would help it would be greatly appreciated.

 

P.S. I do go to a chiropracter once a month so I will mention it to him next time I go.

 

Cheers

[markern]

A lot of people love the Goenka retreats and get a lot out of them. Quite a few people also get a bit scared. and don`t continue to practice. The regimen is a bit too rough on beginners in my opinion. Having halucinations and al kinds of wierd energetic experiences happen even in Zen although it is not sought after in Vipassana nor Zen as it is in some traditions. In Vipassana and Zen one would just try to be mindfull and non-atatched with regards to such occurences. Although I have not sat any sort of retreat I practice Vipassana and I have read quite a bit about it. I have enorumous respect for Spirit Rock and Insight meditation society and their teachers. Much more than Goenka. At those to retreat centers you can also choose between a much larger variety of retreats both with regards to length, regimen, and to some extent the content. There is also a much better understanding in that tradition of how to integrate Vipaasana into the lives of westerners and how to blend the western and budhist psychological tradtion. the reality is that about half of those who sit the three month long retreats at IMS get so much pshychological stuff coming up that they deal more with that than with cultivating the Jhanas or doing high level Vipassana.

[Ya Mu]

interesting I never thought of that.

 

Well I'm not performing any third-eye or healing meditations, I'm just basically focusing on my breath and obtaining a clear mind. What are some methods to remove qi from neck?

 

If this helps I can kind of compare how my neck feels. When I do situps a certain way my neck also gets like this it feels really tense as If little to no air is getting up through it and it is stiff but i find if i do an alternate way of doing a sit up it no longer bothers me. I can also feel my neck getting stiffer in the meditation I bring my attention to it and just watch. It feels as if it is some sort of gland behind my ears which get tense and stiffen.

 

If anyone can recommend a meditation or exercise that would help it would be greatly appreciated.

 

P.S. I do go to a chiropracter once a month so I will mention it to him next time I go.

 

Cheers

 

You could try going to a Clinical Qigong therapist.

[laotse]

hey,

 

don't expect too much if you never did a vipassana course.

most beginners in meditation doing it the first time end their practise right after the 10 days course :-)

 

but also if you are serious with it, its just an introduction into the technique of vipassana, which is indeed a great one if this your type of meditation.... but it's a tough experience....but worth doing it....

 

never had the impression that people worshipping goenka in these courses, they had enough to deal with theirselves.....

 

have fun...

Edited November 30, 2008 by laotse

[seekeroftruth]

You might know about this already, but IMNSHO, the best (read: my favorite) book on insight meditation is daniel ingram's book:

 

interactivebuddha.com

[Lozen]

I did the Goenke retreat, and I agree with you--it seemed cult-like and I did not like it.

 

Shambhala has some good retreats--they aren't free, but you aren't forced to remain silent or bow to the TV.

[markern]

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOP...Terms=vipassana

 

This thread has some very important points to make about the Goenka retreats and that style of Vipassana. However it also covers a lot of other interesting stuff before the Goenka discussion gets going

[modestman]

excellent! thanks for the replys

 

I was just wondering if there were alternative approaches to Vipassana that still contain its pure form. I feel I should be able to learn this method through an alternative source (book,video,course) other than Goenka's method.

 

 

Cheers

[laotse]

excellent! thanks for the replys

 

I was just wondering if there were alternative approaches to Vipassana that still contain its pure form. I feel I should be able to learn this method through an alternative source (book,video,course) other than Goenka's method.

Cheers

 

I think it's very possible to learn just the method during such a goenka retreat without worshipping him...

 

How could someone worship him, when nobody is allowed to speak? :-)

Edited December 2, 2008 by laotse

[Ian]

I went on a Goenka retreat about six/seven years ago.

 

I found excruciatingly difficult, very effective, and without a trace of worship.

 

The Goenka video excerpts each evening were charming, apposite and just enough, each time, to make me decide to stick it out for another day.

 

It has been persuasively suggested to me, since then, that this style of vipassana, going through the body, asks a lot of people, as it was designed to be done after achieving stable concentration. While still potentially very useful for beginners, I'm told that a lot of people have to white-knuckle it with aditan (strong determnation).

 

But if in doubt, try it and see. Certainly not a cult, as I experienced it.

[forestofsouls]

I don't know about Vipassana in it's "pure form" --- meditation techniques are either effective for the individual or they are not. Whether it is pure, original, from the Buddha's lips, etc. is really beside the point.

 

I've done a Goenka retreat but it isn't for anyone. I would never suggest Goenka to some one who doesn't have an ability to sit for more than ten or twenty minutes--- it would be torture. Goenka's students are very devoted to Goenka alone (many have not tried or even heard of other methods) which others may see as unduly narrow-minded.

 

The book of books in my opinion about Vipassana is "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Bhante G. It is generally available online for free.

 

I think Shinzen Young has an extraordinary grasp of Buddhist meditation and has a phone based teaching method that I think is brilliant:

 

www.basicmindfulness.org

 

I also learned a lot from the Dan Ingram's site listed above.

 

excellent! thanks for the replys

 

I was just wondering if there were alternative approaches to Vipassana that still contain its pure form. I feel I should be able to learn this method through an alternative source (book,video,course) other than Goenka's method.

Cheers

[markern]

I don't know about Vipassana in it's "pure form" --- meditation techniques are either effective for the individual or they are not. Whether it is pure, original, from the Buddha's lips, etc. is really beside the point.

 

I've done a Goenka retreat but it isn't for anyone. I would never suggest Goenka to some one who doesn't have an ability to sit for more than ten or twenty minutes--- it would be torture. Goenka's students are very devoted to Goenka alone (many have not tried or even heard of other methods) which others may see as unduly narrow-minded.

 

The book of books in my opinion about Vipassana is "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Bhante G. It is generally available online for free.

 

I think Shinzen Young has an extraordinary grasp of Buddhist meditation and has a phone based teaching method that I think is brilliant:

 

www.basicmindfulness.org

 

I also learned a lot from the Dan Ingram's site listed above.

 

 

Wow. The Shinzen Young site is great!!! Thanks for the link

[松永道]

This is the first I've heard of Goenka worship. However, I have a handful of friends who've gone and every one of them says it was life changing. Of course, my friends are all smart, open-minded, but never-the-less skeptical folks.

 

Take what makes sense, leave what doesn't. Simply put though, vipassana is a great system for increasing your awareness of the world as it is. You don't visualize, you don't use mantra, you simply observe sensations. You don't even search for particular sensations. Simply observe your reality as it is.

 

I also practice neigong and taijiquan and I can say the quality of consciousness I obtained through vipassana meditation has been an immense asset.

 

On discomfort. Everyone who attends this retreat goes through a lot of pain. Equanimity towards discomfort is one of the most important hurdles. Incidentally, daoist philosophy would relate pain to the Hun, an element of the psyche in daoist psychology. An inability to endure pain creates irritation, frustration, and anger. The ability to endure discomfort is proportional to one's compassion. I can't say why, but I can say from my experience that after my vipassana, 10 days of agony, I realized what it was to experience true, heart-felt compassion for the first time.

 

It's about bravery, not brainwashing.