While in the World

[林愛偉]

While in the World

By: Lin Ai Wei

 

 

While in the world, staying clean from the defilements of the mind seem impossible. We walk in the dirt and mud, and get it stuck to our clothes, bodies, and our mind.

 

It seems hopeless to even bother with wiping the mirror clean time to time, because each time it is wiped, dust clings ever so tightly.

 

Some find it difficult. Some say even after 3,6,9, 20yrs of meditation, cultivation in general seems useless to end the tireless thoughts and desires.

 

What many fail to see is that they just didn't have one lifetime in just one form, nor did they ever just have only one form. Cultivation with thoughts of not getting anywhere are signs that point one to realize they haven't done enough.

 

Maybe the methods aren't suitable for the cultivator at this time, so then modification to the method must be made by the teacher who can see the mind of the cultivator.

 

Patience, diligence, consistency are keys to attaining the fruit of cultivation. In this world, we must be diligent, honest and patience. Be consistence with it.

 

Walk in the world and only concern yourself with that you can transform. Anything more is too much stress. It is stress because there is no ability to handle it. When there is ability, then it is effortless.

 

Take all criticisms with an open heart and all praises with deaf ears.

Take all words of cursing and defamation as though they are a foreign language and you have no clue what is being said. Brush it off but without arrogance.

 

Cultivate without utilizing the perception of what you think Daoism and Buddhism is. Drop the views that paint the image of Buddhism and Daoism. Utilize your intuition to resonate with that method of beneficial outcomes in wholesomeness.

 

Then you will come to realize what is true teaching and what is unnecessary. Then you will be free from discriminating thoughts for you will recognize the process of the mind, and have the strength in cultivation to move forward.

 

Keep in mind, any immortal can be "bad", any god can be "evil"...

Any ghost, spirit, heavenly being, or hell dweller can have great spiritual powers, can help people, and can do strange and miraculous things. But their karmic nature will always be that of a ghost, spirit, heavenly being or hell dweller. Creating conditions with these beings will indeed cause you to arrive in their realms as well. Think twice. Heavenly beings can be demonic, aggressive, loving, compassionate, evil and benevolent. It takes wisdom to recognize them.

 

If one with karmic conditions of a ghost, demon, etc, has transcended those states, they will no longer be a ghost, demon, spirit, etc. Thus, if they have attained a higher state, more brighter, wiser and compassionate, also has attained a state of not turning back to their past conditions, then creating conditions with them would beneficial for cultivation.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Stigweard]

Thank you Lin. As always timely and lucid.

 

[三江源]

Thankyou Lin.

 

Can I ask you if to say more about this :

 

Keep in mind, any immortal can be "bad", any god can be "evil"...

Any ghost, spirit, heavenly being, or hell dweller can have great spiritual powers, can help people, and can do strange and miraculous things. But their karmic nature will always be that of a ghost, spirit, heavenly being or hell dweller. Creating conditions with these beings will indeed cause you to arrive in their realms as well. Think twice. Heavenly beings can be demonic, aggressive, loving, compassionate, evil and benevolent. It takes wisdom to recognize them.

 

I know some of us on the board wonder about these questions of how we can know what we are dealing with..

 

are you able to shed any light on this vexed question of recognition?

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[林愛偉]

Thankyou Lin.

 

Can I ask you if to say more about this :

I know some of us on the board wonder about these questions of how we can know what we are dealing with..

 

are you able to shed any light on this vexed question of recognition?

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

In the world of Daoism, if its too good to be true, it probably is. Basically, if you don't have to

bust your ass for something grand, then don't bother doing it. And if there is a hint of shadyness to your teacher, with an taste of darkness in any manner, there probably is going to be a lot more where that came from.

 

In the world of Buddhism, if you are not busting your ass for the attainment of wisdom, then you aren't

gaining wisdom. Any sign of improper conduct, virtue and moral, your teachings will not lead you to a proper place.

 

 

I can switch those two around and they will still fit properly for the two.

 

How to tell which is what is not very easy, but there is a simple method.

The method is, if there is any harm of any living being within the teachings, its no good, both Buddhist and Daoist values. If there is any manner to gain, and get before others do, to be first, then its no good.

 

 

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Thank you Lin. As always timely and lucid.

 

 

Peace and Blessings !!!

 

[fiveelementtao]

In the world of Daoism, if its too good to be true, it probably is. Basically, if you don't have to

bust your ass for something grand, then don't bother doing it. And if there is a hint of shadyness to your teacher, with an taste of darkness in any manner, there probably is going to be a lot more where that came from.

 

The method is, if there is any harm of any living being within the teachings, its no good, both Buddhist and Daoist values. If there is any manner to gain, and get before others do, to be first, then its no good.

 

Peace,

Lin

Peace and Blessings !!!

 

Thank you! Well said!

[Tao99]

 

Take all criticisms with an open heart and all praises with deaf ears.

 

Keep in mind, any immortal can be "bad",

 

Heavenly beings can be demonic, evil

 

 

I hope you will take this criticism with an open heart, but - if I may please correct you - this is an ugly, rookie misunderstanding of Taoism. Taoist Immortals are by definition fully realized spirit beings, whether they are heavenly or earthly immortals. If a person behave as you describe then they are by definition not an immortal, but a misnamed fraud. All heavenly beings in Taoism are immortals and it's a place that by definition contains none of the poisonous elements of earth. To make the Taoists heavens out to be another earth is grotesque to a Taoist.

 

This is equivalent to me calling your Buddha bad, demonic, and evil, and I don't think this would leave you speechless, but would get me widely condemned and criticized on this website.

 

So I'm sure you will understand my concern, being a Taoist.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Tao99

[林愛偉]

I hope you will take this criticism with an open heart, but - if I may please correct you - this is an ugly, rookie misunderstanding of Taoism. Taoist Immortals are by definition fully realized spirit beings, whether they are heavenly or earthly immortals. If a person behave as you describe then they are by definition not an immortal, but a misnamed fraud. All heavenly beings in Taoism are immortals and it's a place that by definition contains none of the poisonous elements of earth. To make the Taoists heavens out to be another earth is grotesque to a Taoist.

 

This is equivalent to me calling your Buddha bad, demonic, and evil, and I don't think this would leave you speechless, but would get me widely condemned and criticized on this website.

 

So I'm sure you will understand my concern, being a Taoist.

 

 

Daoists are not free from doing evil, and a Daoist Immortal can be a practitioner of evil things as well.

They can take revenge on people, hurt, lie, etc. A wholesome realized Immortal is different of course.

 

So please understand that I am not saying all wholesome Daoist Immortals are evil. I am strictly saying that though one may cultivate the teachings known as Daoist, and attain immortality doesn't mean they are wise and compassionate just for that.

 

As that is so, a Buddha is a Buddha because there is no evil within them. This is why they are a Buddha. If there was evil, they wouldn't be a Buddha.

 

An Immortal of any cultivation is truly immortal when they have ended birth and death and are free from karmic afflictions. A lifespan of 10,000years may seem like immortality, but it will end nonetheless, and the process of that karma will still bring the cultivator to more birth and death until the cycle of their own mind is ended.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

P.S.- Daoist, Buddhist, it all must be put down to become complete in enlightenment and true immortality. Don't pick it up, and don't put it down.

And also, keep to the context:

 

...Keep in mind, any immortal can be "bad", any god can be "evil"...

Any ghost, spirit, heavenly being, or hell dweller can have great spiritual powers, can help people, and can do strange and miraculous things. But their karmic nature will always be that of a ghost, spirit, heavenly being or hell dweller. Creating conditions with these beings will indeed cause you to arrive in their realms as well. Think twice. Heavenly beings can be demonic, aggressive, loving, compassionate, evil and benevolent. It takes wisdom to recognize them...

Edited November 30, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Stigweard]

Daoists are not free from doing evil, and a Daoist Immortal can be a practitioner of evil things as well.

They can take revenge on people, hurt, lie, etc. A wholesome realized Immortal is different of course.

 

So please understand that I am not saying all wholesome Daoist Immortals are evil. I am strictly saying that though one may cultivate the teachings known as Daoist, and attain immortality doesn't mean they are wise and compassionate just for that.

 

As that is so, a Buddha is a Buddha because there is no evil within them. This is why they are a Buddha. If there was evil, they wouldn't be a Buddha.

 

An Immortal of any cultivation is truly immortal when they have ended birth and death and are free from karmic afflictions. A lifespan of 10,000years may seem like immortality, but it will end nonetheless, and the process of that karma will still bring the cultivator to more birth and death until the cycle of their own mind is ended.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

P.S.- Daoist, Buddhist, it all must be put down to become complete in enlightenment and true immortality. Don't pick it up, and don't put it down.

And also, keep to the context:

 

I guess there are different perceptions of what an immortal is. For instance is it possible to become immortal and have any evil within ?

 

Could "Buddha" be substituted with "Immortal" and say: "An Immortal is an Immortal because there is no evil within them. This is why they are an Immortal. If there was evil, they wouldn't be an Immortal." ??

 

Are there different grades of Immortals?

 

Is there are difference between a Daoist Immortal and a Buddhist Immortal?

 

Are we wasting our time with such conjecture and conceptualisation?

 

Should we have another cup of tea?

[林愛偉]

I guess there are different perceptions of what an immortal is. For instance is it possible to become immortal and have any evil within ?

 

Could "Buddha" be substituted with "Immortal" and say: "An Immortal is an Immortal because there is no evil within them. This is why they are an Immortal. If there was evil, they wouldn't be an Immortal." ??

 

Are there different grades of Immortals?

 

Is there are difference between a Daoist Immortal and a Buddhist Immortal?

 

Are we wasting our time with such conjecture and conceptualisation?

 

Should we have another cup of tea?

 

 

Buddha, can not be said to just be immortal. But that quality is neither here nor there, because there is no life and no death for a Buddha. So Immortality isn't a thought, just the way it is.

 

Immortal is just a state, not a being. A being can be in the state of immortality, but if their mind still has attachments to views, they will be subject to birth and death, thus not being truthfully immortal, but possessing a great lifespan that is just said to be immortal.

 

In Buddhism, the only immortals are those who have left the cycle of birth and death. 4th stage Arhats, but they are not of Daoist Immortality because the path and teachings are different on the causal grounds. Two different realms until the state of holding onto views has been put down.

 

Conceptualizing will be a waste of time indeed, unless someone can put the proper perspective into place.

But all in all, Daoist and Buddhist is just a name to cultivation of specific methods. In truth, if it is wholesome, it is Buddhist, if it is wholesome, it is Daoist. Just like people. Same planet, different countries. But, they are indeed humans!!!!!

 

Peace,

Lin

[fiveelementtao]

I guess there are different perceptions of what an immortal is. For instance is it possible to become immortal and have any evil within ?

 

Could "Buddha" be substituted with "Immortal" and say: "An Immortal is an Immortal because there is no evil within them. This is why they are an Immortal. If there was evil, they wouldn't be an Immortal." ??

 

Are there different grades of Immortals?

 

Is there are difference between a Daoist Immortal and a Buddhist Immortal?

 

Are we wasting our time with such conjecture and conceptualisation?

 

Should we have another cup of tea?

 

This is a GREAT discussion. As in all important matters of discussion, it is important to first isolate and define our presuppositions.

What is an immortal? Is it an energetic or "Spiritual" (moral) state of being?

 

Is an immortal someone who has refined their nature and is "good"?

 

Can someone cultivate enough energy to switch dimensions if they are "evil"?

 

I believe our individual answers to these questions will determine our individual presuppositions.

 

I think it is important to make a distinction between "Buddha" and a Daoist "immortal".

 

A daoist immortal is a human who has, through energetic cultivation achieved long physical life and/or raised their energy level to a point where He/She can phase themselves out of this earthly dimension to a "higher" one.

 

Buddha is said to be an avatar of the Pure Vishnu principle of the Universe. It has a deep connection to Hindu theology and is not the same as a Daoist Immortal. It is conceivable in Buddhist and Hindu tradition for someone to achieve a very high level of energy cultivation and become an immortal and still not have the buddha nature. Many hindu demons are immortals who are extremely powerful but still trapped in their lower spiritual natures.

 

I can state categorically from my experience with my teachers that Taoists are capable of achieving unbelievable energetic heights. They can easily be mistaken for Divine beings becase of their powers. I trained with one Tao master who was one of these. He died and resurrected himself and was capable of amazing energetic feats, but he was also one of the most emotionally immature and destructive people I have ever known. His energetic accomplishments trapped him in his pride. He was also one of the most unhappy persons I have known. Lonely, bitter and extremely insecure. He may become an immortal, but he is no Buddha.

 

I believe that many people strive for energetic cultivation because they believe that once they achieve "immortal" status they will be free from pain and strife. I thought this way until I trained for many years with this man. I no longer think this. In fact, I believe that if one were to achieve this status without learning the important lessons of love, humility and kindness, that being an "evil" immortal in the next dimension would be a very lonely hell...

[林愛偉]

All beings have the Buddha Nature, its just that not all beings attain the fruit of their Bodhi Nature (Enlightened Nature). Meaning, not all beings realize , "attain" enlightenment. Regardless of how long they cultivate, their enlightenment is complete when not one defiling thought enters, not one defiling thought arises, and all causes for views of separation are no longer in the mind ground.

 

It can be 10,000 lifetimes, it can be 84,000. Its according to the causes and conditions of the cultivator, their karma and how they handle it.

 

All living beings include demons, hell dwellers, cats, dogs, fish, beings of the heavens, and all realms...not just humans and animals and fish, but the whole gamut.

 

One can attain immortality, but that doesn't mean they are good. They can be immortal and arrogant. but that state of immortality wouldn't be a pure state, for because of the attachments to views, they will be subject to birth and death, and their state of immortality would end.

 

There are once returners in Buddhist cultivation, where all they have left is one more life and then BANG they are done with the cycle of birth and death.

 

 

There is also too much hype about immortality in today's Daoism. This is a reason why there is so much confusion out there in the mainstream about Daoism. People pick on a few states and use it as a marker for real Daoist teachings when in fact, they haven't even figured out how they came to be, when they will go and where they are going. All this immortality stuff, and spiritual powers talk is a big waste of time, especially when people just don't even know when they are going to die in this life...let alone know where they came from.

 

Takes cultivation to figure it out. Hard work, and not toiling in the nonsense talk of immortality and states and powers. Its fun to discuss, but in truth, intellect will not get you there.

 

 

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited November 30, 2008 by 林愛偉

[JackSquat]

I am having a hard time understanding something:

 

If good and evil are equally part of the Tao, and there is the capacity for evil as well as good in every human, then why shouldn't there be those whose purpose is to realize the Tao through darkness? Does not the tree of life grow downward with the same purpose as it grows upward? Is is a wishful fantasy to think that everything is all clean and neat and good where "true knowledge" reins? I was under the impression that there was no true difference between good and evil, that in order to be enlightened we have to accept the blackness within ourselves as well as the light, so wouldn't that mean that there are beings of all shades of dark and light who, by their own path through the mires of time and form, have reached completeness? The extreme would be something like the opposite of a buddha of love, taking rather than giving, creating negative things rather than positive, etc.. Is it simply that this is not a path for humans to take, or am I misrepresenting something? It seems to me like there is an imbalance here.

 

I don't mean to be confrontational, I'm just trying to figure a few things out and I didn't get an answer when I asked these questions in another thread a few days ago .

[宁]

I am having a hard time understanding something:

 

If good and evil are equally part of the Tao, and there is the capacity for evil as well as good in every human, then why shouldn't there be those whose purpose is to realize the Tao through darkness? Does not the tree of life grow downward with the same purpose as it grows upward? Is is a wishful fantasy to think that everything is all clean and neat and good where "true knowledge" reins? I was under the impression that there was no true difference between good and evil, that in order to be enlightened we have to accept the blackness within ourselves as well as the light, so wouldn't that mean that there are beings of all shades of dark and light who, by their own path through the mires of time and form, have reached completeness? The extreme would be something like the opposite of a buddha of love, taking rather than giving, creating negative things rather than positive, etc.. Is it simply that this is not a path for humans to take, or am I misrepresenting something? It seems to me like there is an imbalance here.

 

I don't mean to be confrontational, I'm just trying to figure a few things out and I didn't get an answer when I asked these questions in another thread a few days ago .

 

 

BINGO

 

there's more on it, i think

[林愛偉]

I am having a hard time understanding something:

 

If good and evil are equally part of the Tao, and there is the capacity for evil as well as good in every human, then why shouldn't there be those whose purpose is to realize the Tao through darkness? Does not the tree of life grow downward with the same purpose as it grows upward? Is is a wishful fantasy to think that everything is all clean and neat and good where "true knowledge" reins? I was under the impression that there was no true difference between good and evil, that in order to be enlightened we have to accept the blackness within ourselves as well as the light, so wouldn't that mean that there are beings of all shades of dark and light who, by their own path through the mires of time and form, have reached completeness? The extreme would be something like the opposite of a buddha of love, taking rather than giving, creating negative things rather than positive, etc.. Is it simply that this is not a path for humans to take, or am I misrepresenting something? It seems to me like there is an imbalance here.

 

I don't mean to be confrontational, I'm just trying to figure a few things out and I didn't get an answer when I asked these questions in another thread a few days ago .

 

 

Relatively, that which goes up, goes down. When one gets out of relativity, there is neither up nor down.

In the mean time, going down may be where the roots of a tree go, but that is just a metaphor in cultivation, sounds good, but don't follow it literally.

 

The truth is, that which is clean, will have that which is dirty, but only when in the relative state. Get out of the relative state, and clean and dirty are non-existent. This would be a state of no good, no evil, and no distinction of the two, for there is no two and no one. This is why a mind of no distinction is called a clean mind, undefiled mind.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Desert Eagle]

Lin,

 

I found another good and similar article at Tao Semko's site:

 

http://taosemko.com/blog/?p=4

 

regards,

DE

[Tao99]

I am having a hard time understanding something:

 

If good and evil are equally part of the Tao, and there is the capacity for evil as well as good in every human, then why shouldn't there be those whose purpose is to realize the Tao through darkness? I was under the impression that there was no true difference between good and evil, that in order to be enlightened we have to accept the blackness within ourselves as well as the light, so wouldn't that mean that there are beings of all shades of dark and light who, by their own path through the mires of time and form, have reached completeness?

The truth is, that which is clean, will have that which is dirty, but only when in the relative state. Get out of the relative state, and clean and dirty are non-existent. This would be a state of no good, no evil, and no distinction of the two, for there is no two and no one. This is why a mind of no distinction is called a clean mind, undefiled mind.

Peace,

Lin

a Daoist Immortal can be a practitioner of evil things as well.

They can take revenge on people, hurt, lie, etc.

 

I am strictly saying that though one may cultivate the teachings known as Daoist, and attain immortality doesn't mean they are wise and compassionate just for that.

 

An Immortal of any cultivation is truly immortal when they have ended birth and death and are free from karmic afflictions. A lifespan of 10,000years may seem like immortality, but it will end nonetheless,

Dude this is foul and insulting to a real Taoist. You are again mixing Buddhist dosctrine up with Taoist doctrine, and completely misunderstanding the Tao in the process. You need to stick to describing Buddhism and leave the Tao to the Taoists because even the most rank beginner students of the Tao know:

 

The Tao is not apart from virtue (Teh)

and virtue is not apart from the Tao.

 

Those who would practice the Tao,

must first bring about virtue.

 

Liu I-Ming, Awakening to the Tao

 

Please stop trying to make Buddhism and Taoism out to be the same philosophy. They have fundamental differences that can't be reconciled just because you want to be a part of the Tao. To mix them is to lose the essence of the Tao and change its very meaning and purpose.

 

If you want to teach Buddhism go ahead but don't try to convert Taoists in an underhanded way by blatantly changing our doctrine to match yours. Taoists on this site seem to remain open and neutral to other's beliefs, but you and some other Buddhists seem to want to make everyone Buddhist. Why are you so insecure in your way that you have to constantly try to convert the Tao to your Buddhism?

 

The above quote shows you don't know the first thing about the Tao, because instead of hearing it, you are constantly trying to change it into your Buddhist way. Please stop, it's blatantly obvious to serious Taoists.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Tao99

[thelerner]

I'd think twice before schooling someone like Lin in Taoism.

 

Make sure you're discussing the same word. I think 'Teh' goes beyond the Western definition of virtue.

 

 

 

Michael

[Tao99]

I'd think twice before schooling someone like Lin in Taoism.

 

Make sure you're discussing the same word. I think 'Teh' goes beyond the Western definition of virtue.

Michael

 

The quote from Liu I-Ming uses the term "virtue" and it is he who is doing the schooling. If someone doesn't even know what's in that quote about the Tao, they don't have a clue what the Tao is. He's a Buddhist and that I have no interest in questioning. But Tai Chi and Chi Kung are only tangentially "Taoist" and miss 90% of what Taoism is. It's not about developing some sort of wizards power as said above. An immortal is not some sort of an energy wizard with magic powers that can be used for evil in an evil Taoist heaven. That's just sad.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Tao99

[Starjumper]

I think the situation here concerning good and evil, and I'll try to put the Buddhist and Taoist reasoning together here, is:

 

If you step back far enough, say observing the Earth from distant outer space, then good and evil of people on Earth disappears, primarily simply because you don't care. Also there is this, everything has it's good and it's bad side. What is good for something will almost always be bad for something else, what people feel is good may be bad for them. What people feel is bad may be good for them. Therefore we need to realize that it is our attachments which create the impression of good and evil, and only our attachments. Now, it appears that for a person to go beyond the attachments that create the impression of good and evil is the same as not giving a damn about anything, exactly the same, but that's boring. ... and this brings us to the differences between Buddhism and Taoism. Buddhism was originally a monastic discipline and so the dogma or dharma reflects this. In spite of the heavenly bearing of most monks, many of them are misfits who can't handle the emotions of society and so want to escape it. A lot of Buddhist teachings relate to escaping suffering, the way to do this is by dropping your attachments, and they drop their attachments by running away from them.

 

Taoism, on the other hand, is not originally a monastic tradition, it is for people living in society and so the focus is a little different. The way I see it is that in Taoism the goal is for people need to realize that it is their attachments that create their suffering, attachments also bring joy. Good and bad are intertwined. This is for people who live IN society and do not want to escape it, they want to streamline their social experience and make the best of it. Emotions are not to be snuffed out but to be enjoyed, and the link above with the explanation of the tantric path and the way lion cubs play explains this very well ( http://taosemko.com/blog/?p=4), both the good emotions and the bad ones are part of life, and are not to be escaped. Having a strong ego is the product of shen and is not to be escaped.

 

The important thing for people to learn is that it is their attachments which cause their suffering, and learning this, (always the hard way) motivates people to manage their attachments more intelligently. The goal is not to escape suffering but to appreciate that it is an essential part of life. Who can tell parents to not be attached to their kids, they are attached and this causes suffering. I think what Lin was saying is that when you realize this that then the suffering stops appearing 'bad' and appears normal and is accepted, so I just put Buddhism and Taoism back together =) You can look at what Lin said in this way and then it blends with Taoism.

 

People are attached to their society and so this obviously causes suffering, but they choose to remain in society and make the best of it, this is Te, the skillful movement through life situations while maintaining and inner stillness. People are attached to their mates and so this causes suffering - big time.

 

In balanced people the suffering is balanced equally with joy, and when they realize where their suffering comes from then it stops having the negative impact that it did before the realization.

 

There's more, much more =)

 

edited to add link.

 

The quote from Liu I-Ming uses the term "virtue" and it is he who is doing the schooling. If someone doesn't even know what's in that quote about the Tao, they don't have a clue what the Tao is. He's a Buddhist and that I have no interest in questioning. But Tai Chi and Chi Kung are only tangentially "Taoist" and miss 90% of what Taoism is. It's not about developing some sort of wizards power as said above. An immortal is not some sort of an energy wizard with magic powers that can be used for evil in an evil Taoist heaven. That's just sad.

 

 

I think what Lin said about good and evil immortals and gods is true to Taoism, and Taoism was spawned by wizards.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Tao99]

I think what Lin was saying is that when you realize this that then the suffering stops appearing 'bad' and appears normal and is accepted, so I just put Buddhism and Taoism back together =)

 

edited to add link.

I think what Lin said about good and evil immortals and gods is true to Taoism, and Taoism was spawned by wizards.

 

This thread begins on a day with the bloody extermination of 200 people in India. And you are saying the Buddhist moral of the story is "Who gives a sh*!" Correct me if I'm wrong for I am not a Buddhist, but I think I just heard the Buddha roll over in his grave. I know the Taoist immortals are cracking up in their pristine Taoist heavens.

 

PS The Tao was spawned by the Yellow Emperor and the followers of the Tao he met in the mountains who taught him and it was completely a health practice. Naturally over 1000s of years there was going to be those who misunderstood, misapplied, and misused it.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Tao99

[Starjumper]

A lot of Buddhist teachings relate to escaping suffering, the way to do this is by dropping your attachments, and they drop their attachments by running away from them.

 

I just want to add here that this view is the one held by those who are at a more beginning level of Buddhism and that those who are more advanced seem to look at it from the Taoist point of view.

[fiveelementtao]

Naturally over 1000s of years there was going to be those who misunderstood, misapplied, and misused it.

 

I think that's the point. Just because someone is following a Taoist interpretation of religion does not cure them of their humanity. Again, we need to look at our own individual presuppositions. If we are seeking a spiritual way that will ultimately "Save" us, that is what we will project onto our chosen path.

 

What I appreciate about taoism is that it is not a rigid system of Right and wrong. The reality of Taoism is that it is our choice how "Pure" we want to be. IMHO this is true in all paths, but it is easier to delude oneself into believing that one is more pure or holy in some other religions. When someone has the mindset, "I follow Buddha or Jesus or Krisha therefore he will purify me and save me." it is easier to stay in denial about the "negative" aspects of our psyche. In Taoism, I am responsible for my actions and if I want to progress, it is up to me to use the tools that taoists have discovered.

 

I am a little hesitant when people project an inherent purity on to Taoism. I believe that this presupposition can lead to self-denial. I prefer to have nature act like an unbiased mirror and allow me to make my own choices...

 

The consequences of not being "Pure" are obvious, But if I blindly accept another's view of purity, I am not growing. I prefer a Universe that promotes experimentation and self-discovery...

[Starjumper]

This thread begins on a day with the bloody extermination of 200 people in India. And you are saying the Buddhist moral of the story is "Who gives a sh*!"

 

My friend, please recall the definitions of words and don't fight them. Doesn't attachment mean giving a shit?

 

Buddhist or Taoist doesn't matter, either way, not giving a flying flapjack about it prevents seeing it as good or bad and prevents suffering. I thought this was obvious, sorry. Obviously the terrorists saw it as good, and yet they suffered due to their attachments. I mean their emotional suffering before they were killed or before they attacked.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong for I am not a Buddhist, but I think I just heard the Buddha roll over in his grave. I know the Taoist immortals are cracking up in their pristine Taoist heavens.

 

I think your perceptions are clouded by something.

 

PS The Tao was spawned by the Yellow Emperor and the followers of the Tao he met in the mountains who taught him and it was completely a health practice. Naturally over 1000s of years there was going to be those who misunderstood, misapplied, and misused it.

 

The followers of Tao that he met in the mountains were wizards Taoism was and still is about health, physical, emotional, and mental health.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Stigweard]

From the point of view of traditional Taoist cosmology, the pairs of opposites and myriad things were spawned from the original oneness of Tao.

 

If our path of Taoist reintegration is one of 'return' then is it concievable that the pairs of opposites, like good and evil, are at some stage dissolved back into the oneness of Tao?

[Starjumper]

Stig, I agree, and the bible is talking about the same thing when it says that it is the knowledge of good and evil which drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. Actually, it drives all of us out of the garden of Eden.

 

Wisdom vs. knowledge.