Why do you have to use MONEY

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't have a problem with money or giving money to someone who helps you a lot.

 

The problem is when the money prohibits you from being able to learn or whatnot.

 

Some people have to work two jobs to pay the rent or pay for their kids' schooling, or maybe they work full time to pay for their own part time education, or maybe work part time to pay for their own education. For those are still students, college education is expensive and in most professions is quite necessary. Even for people out of school who manage their money well, there are some things that just happen and those cost money to fix.

 

So when it comes down to making a payment on your house vs. paying money to a daoist teacher...

 

Or when it comes to paying your school tuition or paying money to a daoist teacher...

 

Or paying your kid's medical bill vs a daoist teacher....

 

You get the idea.

 

I have nothing wrong with money, I just have a problem when things become cost prohibitive.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ryan T.]

Money is important, so when you can give up money for learning Tao, you are really sacrifying for Tao and putting your effort in Tao. Those that go for FREE stuff or DIY stuff will end up having nothing because you are paying nothing. That is a balance of karma. Cause and Effect.

 

While I agree that payment in relation to gaining knowledge is not a bad thing I take issue with the idea that things that are "FREE or DIY" are of no value. Just because it's free does not mean it is worthless, quite the contrary in my experience.

 

Interesting topic. Especially since I am off to private T'ai-Chi instruction this very minute!

[Yoda]

I'm glad I have a budget or I'd be studying with everyone!! It truly is a blessing.

[Unconditioned]

Concepts upon concepts upon concepts. A gust of insight will blow the house of cards down. There is nothing wrong with paying your time and effort for a master's help. But, as J.Krishnamurti puts it so well, we can't satisfy our hunger by reading the menu, talking about how if you put this and that together it will taste wonderful and it will nurish you, etc. We need to actually eat to cure the hunger.

 

One can prepare your food for you or you can prepare it yourself.

 

I do not for one second believe that someone MUST pay for freedom with money however I do think it's an option.

 

Just remember though, someone who has already eaten and describes the sensation of feeling full cannot take away your hunger for you, you have to eat for yourself and digest for yourself otherwise you will die with all the knowledge of the menu but with an empty belly.

[goldisheavy]

When you donate clothings, it only means the clothings. When you donate money, it means you donate all your effort, time, stress, pain, etc,. Everything. That of course means alot in terms of karma belancing.

 

This is patently false. When you donate clothing, that clothing has monetary value, and it still represents sweat, time, stress, pain and all that. Clothing is not as liquid as money, to put it in financial terms, but it is totally wrong, totally wrong to say that "when you donate clothings[sic], it only means the clothings[sic]."

 

You make similar logic errors throughout your post MTS, and I really feel sorry for you. You don't understand what you are doing. The taoist path is valuable in and of itself and it doesn't have to be sold for money to be useful. If taoist knowledge is worthless in and of itself and is simply a resale value, like art, then those people who buy it are swindled unless they also become sellers of the art. (maybe that's why so many people who pay for classes soon become teachers who also sell classes?) If I draw a painting, I cannot eat it, and I have to sell it to someone to eat. However Daoism literally allows you to eat or eliminates the need to eat at the high levels of achievement. On the other hand, no matter what level of achievement you get in painting, you can't eat the paintings.

 

There is a story about Nagarjuna painting a cow and then milking it for real milk. However this has nothing to do with the art of painting and everything to do with wisdom, with understanding the emptiness of phenomena.

 

Finally, if you sell Daoist "secrets", first of all, you have to keep them a secret, or else you can't sell them very well. So you keep knowledge secret for your own benefit. Secondly, if equivalent knowledge comes out and it is free, you will have to try to discredit it to maintain the value of your "secrets". When Linux came out Microsoft did everything in its power to try to discredit it. One of the Microsoft executives even went so far as to call Linux "cancer" and to associate it with communism (which is a negative/pejorative term in USA). So this makes it so that you have to live a dishonest life. Microsoft knows that Linux is a great system, but they can't admit it. So they must lie. The very exact same thing is happening in the spiritual domain. Monetized spiritual offerings are competing with some damned good, first class, top notch open, non-monetized offerings.

 

There are people like me, who will teach amazing things for free. What I share is top notch. Many traditional masters do not even understand what the fuck I am talking about because they don't even have the same level of development and experience as I do. My approach is very general, abstract and liberated from traditions, because I understand and know the principles behind everything and so I don't need to rely on the wrappers, and further, because I know the principles, I can make new food like a master chef. And I also go around and encourage everyone to become their own master chef. If you understand the fundamentals of taste, and if you understand the various processing of food such as boiling, frying, brazing, simmering, steaming and so forth, you have everything you need to become a master chef. You don't need to get recipes! You only need a recipe if you have no idea how the cooking processes affect the food and how the tastes taste when they combine, and finally, when you don't love cooking enough to bother learning all that, so you'd rather pay someone who learned it to give you a recipe to follow. That's the lazy and ignorant approach. A person who follows a recipe does NOT EVER learn the fundamentals of cooking, because to learn the fundamentals you MUST experiment, and you MUST make mistakes, there is no way around it.

 

So I have something that works and that WILL feed you and will raise you above the plane of suffering as sure as the stone that's falling to the ground hitting the ground.

 

I share all that because I know that empowering people is ultimately GOOD for me. If I was just selling my knowledge, which I could easily do, I would have to be of the opinion that giving another person my knowledge does nothing for me in and of itself and so I need monetary compensation to offset the karmic balance. However I am wise enough to understand that when I empower people and to make them more independent and less sheep-like, I help to create an egalitarian society, a society where the power pyramid is flatter. And that's exactly the kind of society I enjoy living it.

 

Finally, let's look at the art of Daoist practice. Look at science as it develops in the West. Science, for all its problems and physicalist dogmatism has some very good qualities that we should emulate. One excellent quality that science has that we should borrow without hesitation is that science is open. Scientists publish their findings. Secrets are not kept on a principle. Independent CRITICAL examination is not only NOT feared, it is WELCOMED and embraced. This is completely opposite from the tribalist and cultish mindsets of the many spiritual "masters" who can't stand their ideas to be cross examined in a dispassionate way, or worse, critically, with the intent to find holes and deficiencies in them. They fear this process. As a result, while Eastern sages had great insights, their art has stood still, no, it has DETERIORATED tremendously over time. It deteriorated because they didn't share it.

 

Finally one more reason to share.

 

When you encourage people to be independent, when you encourage people to think for themselves and to be creative, you create wonderful diversity. Many of these people will be fools, but many will also become truly great masters of their own who have no lineage-based prejudices and preconceptions. This will create GREAT diversity and enrich our lives.

 

On the other hand, if we only promote the big lineages, what will happen is that everyone will just keep copying and copying and copying and creativity will be dead. Lineages never teach creativity. For example, when you learn FU from someone like MTS, you cannot creatively DEPART from what you were taught, because you are taught that only what the lineage does is valid, and your own creativity is basically invalid. So it debases your inner world and at the same time it impoverishes the outer world because everyone is running around with copies of the same system and no one is allowed to use their own creativity. Because people's creativity is actively discouraged and frowned upon by the lineages, we do not get any independent insight or any truly new discoveries except when some "asshole" is brave enough to separate from the lineage, which happens only very rarely, and even then that "asshole" often just starts his own lineage again and the cycle repeats itself.

Edited December 4, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Gerard]

...so when you can give up money for learning Tao...

 

There is no need to pay anything to learn the Tao. You just have to discover it. Naming the unnamed is not a good start. Look within and then compare with what you see in Nature.

 

 

There is no need to go to any temples either. This kind of temple is the best one can find in this world away from humanity, the best way of understanding the Tao:

 

 

 

 

[trenna1]

Concepts upon concepts upon concepts. A gust of insight will blow the house of cards down. There is nothing wrong with paying your time and effort for a master's help. But, as J.Krishnamurti puts it so well, we can't satisfy our hunger by reading the menu, talking about how if you put this and that together it will taste wonderful and it will nurish you, etc. We need to actually eat to cure the hunger.

 

One can prepare your food for you or you can prepare it yourself.

 

I do not for one second believe that someone MUST pay for freedom with money however I do think it's an option.

 

Just remember though, someone who has already eaten and describes the sensation of feeling full cannot take away your hunger for you, you have to eat for yourself and digest for yourself otherwise you will die with all the knowledge of the menu but with an empty belly.

 

 

Hey everyone,

 

This is my first post here in the main forum, I've been content up until now to kind of hang back but this has turned into a very interesting thread so...

On the subject of money for teachings and specifically as it has been brought up by Mak Tin Si I'll sort of respond to goldisheavy's post which was well articluated but I believe only one side of the coin. This is definitely a touchy subject, whenever payment for teachings is mentioned people by and large seem to either wince quietly or decry loudly. I believe the point Mak Tin Si was trying to make (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is not that paying money is the only way to secure and legitimize the transmission of a given teaching, hardly. But contrary to some prior sugestions the teaching of a lineage is not dead or static but vital and sensitive, to imply that the transmission of a teaching through the cabal of a more or less accepted set of standards, ethics, theory, etc. that make up a lineage is necessarily mutually exclusive with creativity is a virtuoso display in lack of imagination and hence creativity. Since the time of the famous ancestors and patriarchs of Daoism (or Bhuddism for that matter) society has obviously changed by leaps and bounds, the mores and values of our societies, what shapes and molds peoples thought processes and subsequently their actions have also changed. Even so, amidst so much change some things remain the same, namely with relevance to our topic, the seach for liberation. The fact that we're here having this discussion at the moment is evidence of the dynamism of the traditions that have brought to our awareness through the fog of the centuries these much debated teachings. If they were not pliant in spirit as well as form they would have vanished into oblivion long ago without so much as a trace. Rigidity and stagnation equal death. Civilization the world over is no longer conducive to the sometimes slow, tedious and immensely arduous process that in ancient (and even not so ancient) times made up the transmission of a teaching, leaving aside any question of practicing and accomplishing anything. One had to prove oneself beyond a doubt to be trustworthy and capable. Which of us would be willing to serve a master hand and foot for 10 maybe 15 years or more just for the off chance of being thrown a bone? In all honesty in any group of thousands you could count them on one hand. Contrast that with today when there are several avenues of which I'm aware that most anyone if they are willing to part with x amount of whatever currency can recieve genuine knowledge which if used effectively can put one on the path to wherever you want to go. (Just as a disclaimer I'm not a member of any lineage, sect, church, temple, etc. nor am I a teacher) It's undeniable that because of this relatively recent phenomena- and granted many are not 100% legit- genuine principles and methods have reached and have the opportunity to reach more people than was ever possible a few hundred years ago. There have been a few notorious gurus in recent memory but if someone just wanted to get rich there are much simpler and more straight forward ways of doing so. On the issue of karma I personally am certainly not at the level of speaking definitively about my own karma not to mention anyone else's but, if we think of karma, and to complete the dichotomy, of De in terms of science then the law of conservation of energy (which both karma and De are a form of) yeilds an elegant yet simple picture. A common thread through all spritual traditions is the idea of sacrifice, simply enough because sacrifice is the most efficient means to attack the ego directly and thus combat karma and convert it into De or merit (just for the sake of simplicity). These are not just moral ideas of good and bad, blame and virtue as commonly understood. Think of ice melting back into water... we only have one use for ice but many different uses for water. If money is such a motivating force, even when the basic necessities are well taken care of, so that we'll toil long even absurd hours to get more then why shouldn't money serve as an expedient substitute for years of dedication just to bring the threshold into view. I'm sure we'd all agree that time is infinitely more precious than money, so are we not more fortuante than our predecessors in that we have such opportunities?

As far as secrecy goes lets go back to "the transmission" itself and what is at the core of many- the Ching/Jing (commonly translated as classic). The idea as I've encountered it: First, any work that truly merits the apellation "Ching" is not something that some guy just decided he was going to write one day to get some of his ideas out, to express himself or inspire people, whatever the case may be. So to presume to "improve" outright change or produce your own such work is indeed patently absurd (the same goes for the principles and methods that will eventually come down through it's appearance) this has nothing to do with literary ambition. These Ching are what lineages are founded upon. Once you understand this principle the words "In the beginning was the word..." will take on a whole new meaning. Such works are not simply words upon a page, at their most mundane they show a Way and the idea is to almost literally penetrate into a text until the practitioner and the "text" in it's original form are indistiguishable. One of the most if not the most important considerations when it comes to the question of secrecy is the integrity of the teaching. Let's face it many don't like to hear it but these things do not rely solely on human endeavor and longing. Now matter how long you experiment whether it be your entire life or many aeons if you're not hooked into a source, a wellspring you won't simply "figure it out'' piece things together and from your efforts become enlightened, liberated, immortal, what have you. True creativity will manifest once you make certain accomplisments in a Way, otherwise you're playing with the branches to the detriment of the root. There are countless pitfalls on the way to enlightenment- with the rare exception- how can you find your way without someone who's been there. There is not a fundamentalist bone in my body, but some things really are mandated by Heaven. Every time a genuine teaching is exposed to a new person a risk is being taken, towards the teaching itself and all those who could benefit and by the master who gives the transmission. Chang Po Tuan himself was punished several times for not being careful in this respect. If a teaching is corrupted enough over time by careless hands the energy at its source, what gives it its efficacy will be taken back and then the teaching will be dead. A great loss. So the need for secrecy is not a clique like attitude of exclusion, it's kept secret so that it may be around for you to learn it one day. Physical science, for all the good it's done is only phenomenal, in relation it only deals with blips on the surface how can the two be compared?

[goldisheavy]

trenna1, what a load of nonsense you fling at us.

 

First of all, you will benefit from putting paragraph breaks into your massive post. It was damn hard to read for me because you fit everything into one huge paragraph. Obviously you didn't want yourself to be well understood, because if you had a desire to be well understood, you'd make an effort to present well. Talk about intent.

 

Secondly, there are some huge problems with lineages. Let's discuss another problem in addition to what I already mentioned. When you get some wisdom in an open fashion, you become a true owner of that wisdom. You are free to change it, to recombine it, to play with it, to retransmit it as you see fit. You own it. That's both a great power and a great responsibility. On the other hand, if you get some teaching from a closed society, you are bound in many ways. You are NOT free to change it, certainly not! You are not free to retransmit it. You have to get permissions and authorizations for all these from the senior lineage holders, and they don't always consent. You are basically at their mercy.

 

This is very similar to what happens when you buy a book vs. downloading some text that's licensed under a Creative Commons license. If you buy a book, you are NOT free to take piece of it and recombine it. That's plagiarism and you will be sued for it and if you are a writer, plagiarism can also be a carrier-ending move for you. On the other hand, Creative Commons license often allows creative manipulation of the text. It's a permissive license that encourages COMMUNITY ownership and creativity. So instead of one person owning it, the ownership is spread through the community in a more even fashion. With many CC licenses you can recombine the text as you see fit and retransmit it in this new, recombined form without creating any kind of offense. So you become the true inheritor of the Creative Commons licensed material, whereas if you buy a book, you are not a true inheritor of it, but rather, you receive a very specific and a very narrow permission to use it in just certain ways at certain times and in certain places and no more.

 

Spiritual path, the kind of stuff I teach, is all about freedom. I work to maximize everyone's freedom for my own benefit. It pisses the hell out of me when other people lose confidence, because then they become subject to manipulation. Then an idiot with an army of drones comes to interfere in my life. In order to dissolve the drone armies I have to infuse the drones with the knowledge of power. Once the drones feel that they have the same power as their master, they will stop following the master. Once that happens, people won't be going around wielding other people's unconsciously delegated power and use it against others. That will be wonderful, and that's my intent. In fact, it is already so, because my intent is a complete fullness of all world events. So all the secret cabal masters can do nothing but suck their thumb now, and there isn't a thing they can do about it, especially if they want to be combative, in which case they will just exhaust themselves faster. Good riddens to those whose intent is to hoard power. Anyone who wants to restrict, to structure, to hoard power is my enemy and has to deal with me personally on every level: spiritual and physical, you name it.

 

Now to answer some points specifically.

 

But contrary to some prior sugestions the teaching of a lineage is not dead or static but vital and sensitive, to imply that the transmission of a teaching through the cabal of a more or less accepted set of standards, ethics, theory, etc. that make up a lineage is necessarily mutually exclusive with creativity is a virtuoso display in lack of imagination and hence creativity.

 

Bullshit. When you are taught how to make a FU, there is a recipe to follow. There is SOME wiggle room within that recipe, but not much. If you deviate too much, the FU loses power by definition! That's the very premise of the power that's derived from lineage. If you are free to tinker with the symbols that means the power doesn't come from the lineage but from you. If the lineage says, "this is how you do it in our lineage", and you do it differently and it works, obviously the power is not coming from the lineage. If what you do depends on universal principles and not on some secret specifics held by a lineage, then ANYONE can find these principles because they are universal! So anyone who pays attention can find those out and use them creatively. So the only thing that can be held secret is not a universal principle, but a certain specific detail, a certain concrete element. And being constrainted by concrete elements is far more limiting than being constrained by universal principles, by definition.

 

I've been around lineage based knowledge a lot, and I can tell with great certainty that the material that's handed down, not only is it not something you are allowed to meddle with, but it is considered precious, holy, a relic and untouchable. You can use it exactly as you got it but you have NO, ZERO, ZERO creative freedom with it. None. No freedom. You receive a transmission and if you are permitted to also give transmission you give it EXACTLY how you received it. If that wasn't the case, if you didn't give it EXACTLY how you received it, then the whole point of lineage would be moot, as then it would become an "anything-goes-age" instead of lineage. Lineage is linear. It's a line. There is NO creativity available within linear progressions, linear thinking, lines and lineages.

 

If money is such a motivating force, even when the basic necessities are well taken care of, so that we'll toil long even absurd hours to get more then why shouldn't money serve as an expedient substitute for years of dedication just to bring the threshold into view.

 

If you could buy something you could own completely, it would be a good deal. Instead what you are often buying is a very limited use license and not true ownership. The only exception from this is when the senior lineage holder dies and passes the title onto the next ONE guy, and that ONE guy then owns the system, but there is a limit even on that one guy. If that guy meddles too much with the system people will complain that it's no longer the ancient lineage, but it's now got too much "innovation" (read: lack of authenticity) in it to be accepted as the real deal. Innovation strips the authenticity of the lineage. This is why the lineage cannot afford to sell you the complete rights, it can only sell you limited rights out of necessity for self-preservation.

 

If you look at a lineage as a person, the lineage has a self-image and it fights for self-preservation just like the person does. In that sense lineages are very selfish and as you might say "egoistic", because they only care about their own integrity and not about your integrity as a person. For example, if you are a Catholic, you are not free to come up with your own definition of God. If the Catholic definition of God hurts your soul and is incompatible with your spiritual development, the Catholic lineage doesn't give a rat's ass about that. If the Catholic lineage allowed itself to be molded into whatever people deemed most necessary and expedient, it would cease to exist as such. That's why the lineages are like people -- they are greedy, selfish, egoistic, they fight for survival, they insult competitors, and they do everything that people do.

 

So spending money to gain knowledge is a wise choice, but you have to be careful not to buy into a restriction. In other words, are there strings attached? What are you REALLY buying? Are you paying for limited use rights or for unlimited rights? These are important questions. I am not categorically against spending money for information, but I am against spending it mindlessly without analysis of what you are ACTUALLY buying.

 

Every time a genuine teaching is exposed to a new person a risk is being taken, towards the teaching itself and all those who could benefit and by the master who gives the transmission. Chang Po Tuan himself was punished several times for not being careful in this respect. If a teaching is corrupted enough over time by careless hands the energy at its source, what gives it its efficacy will be taken back and then the teaching will be dead.

 

Duh. Isn't that what I keep saying? That's why lineages suck. They derive their power from details and not from universal principles. There is no way universal principles can disappear or lose power. It's only the details that can disappear or lose power (due to being applied in the wrong context for example).

Edited December 5, 2008 by goldisheavy

[trenna1]

 

If you look at a lineage as a person, the lineage has a self-image and it fights for self-preservation just like the person does. In that sense lineages are very selfish and as you might say "egoistic", because they only care about their own integrity and not about your integrity as a person. For example, if you are a Catholic, you are not free to come up with your own definition of God. If the Catholic definition of God hurts your soul and is incompatible with your spiritual development, the Catholic lineage doesn't give a rat's ass about that. If the Catholic lineage allowed itself to be molded into whatever people deemed most necessary and expedient, it would cease to exist as such. That's why the lineages are like people -- they are greedy, selfish, egoistic, they fight for survival, they insult competitors, and they do everything that people do.

 

Duh. Isn't that what I keep saying? That's why lineages suck. They derive their power from details and not from universal principles. There is no way universal principles can disappear or lose power. It's only the details that can disappear or lose power (due to being applied in the wrong context for example).

 

Thank you for your teaching on composition, I'll try and prove myself worthy of recieving it.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it weren't for legitimate lineages you wouldn't have the "principles" which you've been able to glean and manipulate into your gourmet meals. Yes there are of course apparent restrictions as with the personal codes of conduct, commandments, vinaya, etc. what you can and cannot do with the teaching as a student. But these are only restrictive to someone still deluded with the bondage of the ego. This in itself is also a method of seperating the wheat from the chaff if you will. Of course our first reaction to someone who trys to tell us, perfectly capable and independent adults what to do and how to do it is: piss off. But if there are men of high attainment who have dedicated their lives to studying the codes of conduct alone, don't you think they're worth a small amount of in depth probing to really find the mechanism under which they operate?

 

You seem to be very... preoccupied with the individuals "rights" to do whatever he pleases with what he learns, so it strikes me as sort of ironic that you call the idea of a lineage "egoistic''. This troublesome "individual", this self is the reason we're in this mess (samsara) to begin with right? For clarification learning things presided over by a given lineage and joining a lineage are two very different things, you do not need to necessarily join a lineage to learn some of its highest level practices. In most cases you will simply be asked to honor the request for secrecy, the reason for which already having been explained. The Catholic comparison can hardly be abided, apples and oranges. The start of Catholicism in the fourth century marked the deterioration of any coherent transmission within that tradition. The principles are still there in part but mangled almost beyond recognition.

 

To close yes, any genuine practice will start off very detailed and as one progresses the higher you go the simpler the practice gets, this is itself a universal principle. In short if you can't even get past your own ego how can you affect to grasp universal principle-truth is you're going to need those details for a while, to serve as a ladder to the utterly simple truth, hence the saying-if you're off by just a hairs breadth you end up missing by a thousand miles.

 

"...Subhuti a bodhisattva who creates the perception of a being cannot be called a "bodhisattva". And why not? Subhuti, no one can be called a bhodisattva who creates the perception of a self or who creates the perception of a being, a life or a soul."

Edited December 5, 2008 by trenna1

[goldisheavy]

Thank you for your teaching on composition, I'll try and prove myself worthy of recieving it.

 

Thank you! It just makes more fun to read you. You seem intelligent and I don't want to struggle reading you because it looks like you have interesting things to say.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if it weren't for legitimate lineages you wouldn't have the "principles" which you've been able to glean and manipulate into your gourmet meals.

 

Not quite! Those things like lineages, people, places are all my own emanations. Don't try to spread ignorance here, because no one is buying it. I emanate the ornaments of my own wisdom. There is not a yota of knowledge anywhere that is not my knowledge. I read something anywhere it is my own mind and nothing more. All the lineages can make an attempt to disappear if they like, but the problem is, they are the representations of my intent, so they are powerless but appear how I want them to appear. In fact, if I wonder off and I ask a stranger to transmit to me the secret teachings, ANY stranger I pick, that stranger will immediately do so and give me any empowerment I want. That's because I can emanate any ability in any person as I please, for fun, to play and for no other reason. Street bums wisper all kinds of things to me, as well as apparently "mundane" coworkers and you name it. My wife is a Buddha. So is my dad. So am I. I was born in a Buddha family and appearances are either pure or defiled based on my fancy. If I like I shall burn the whole world and myself included. Or give everyone a loly pop. Whatever.

 

It really pisses me off a great deal when people run around, using my power to do things I don't allow them to do (but of course I do.. it's like having two puppets on two hands... the puppet on the left hand will win the battle, because that's what I want, and that's the play, so the puppet on the right hand is doing bad things against my will, because I identity closer to the puppet on the left, but this identification is for fun, it's not who I am).

 

So now then, will people please stop stealing my own shoes and try to sell them back to me for a price? I ask nicely for now, before I get violent, unless I get bored and sleepy, which is also a distinct possibility.

 

Yes there are of course apparent restrictions as with the personal codes of conduct, commandments, vinaya, etc. what you can and cannot do with the teaching as a student. But these are only restrictive to someone still deluded with the bondage of the ego. This in itself is also a method of seperating the wheat from the chaff if you will.

 

Yea right, like this is some clever design with a grand purpose. It's just an emanation and it has whatever purpose I want it to have. In my case I say it is a waste of time and a hindrance and I wipe it away now. It is gone.

 

Of course our first reaction to someone who trys to tell us, perfectly capable and independent adults what to do and how to do it is: piss off.

 

Bullshit! We appreciate good advice and pointers. What we don't like are swindles and disempowerment. And then we don't like the cop out answers like "hey this disempowerment is just to test your mettle...if you have the real stuff it won't affect you". Hahaha... FUCK THAT! Not only will it not affect me, but I don't need any tests! Who the fuck is anyone or anything to test me? I don't even care what I feel or think, what kind of test are we talking about? I have a conditional care, and that is, if people want to play nice, I want to share something beautiful. But if people will be assholes, especially people who should know better, I will not always be nice.

 

We appreciate friendship, but we don't like rulers. We are not arrogant at all, but nor are we carpets to walk on either.

 

Now, I am giving these gentle warnings before letting completely loose. I ask all the unnecessary and bogus tests to stop. Challenges are useless. If you like challenge, why don't you stick a fork in your eye? I certainly don't need any challenge. I realize it's the left hand playing against right. Whether I win or lose a challenge it's a game. There is no ACTUAL challenge because the intent is always whole, singular. There are no two intents.

 

But if there are men of high attainment who have dedicated their lives to studying the codes of conduct alone, don't you think they're worth a small amount of in depth probing to really find the mechanism under which they operate?

 

No. They should be cremated without rituals. What you should study is your own mind. Don't waste your time studying "other men" because all men are you. YOU ARE ALL MEN. Study yourself and you will understand ALL behavior -- from psychotic, to mundane, to immortal and everything in between. I understand every possible behavior and motivation and every possible and conceivable psychodynamic is open to me. There is no need to study any men. Besides, knowledge is always fallible. Knowledge is not passive perception. Perception is not passive. Perception is as much a creation as it is a perception. So there is a trick to it. You can't ever see "how it is", only how you envision it. A man blind from birth who sees visions cannot perceive the true rainbow or the false rainbow. Do you understand? Baseless and creative visions cannot be perfected. At some point you get the principle and take a different identity regardless of appearance. There is no way to "work yourself into" anything that's significantly different from who you are now. If you want to make a real change, a different tactic is required.

 

You seem to be very... preoccupied with the individuals "rights" to do whatever he pleases with what he learns, so it strikes me as sort of ironic that you call the idea of a lineage "egoistic''.

 

Really? LOL. Why? Individual is not the problem, the problem is individual I don't like. And no, I am not comparing myself to anyone. So don't compare me. Don't say "it's not fair". I am taking the power back now and there is nothing fair about it. It's not a democracy over here. Now, lucky for you I want you to be powerful as a person, but that's because I want that, because I find it pretty. I don't like groups to be powerful and I especially don't like individuals to preside over groups, and especially I don't like when groups are consisting of weak people who don't chose it, but feel they HAVE to be in the group, or else they can't advance or whatever else they can't have. In other words, if someone is in the group for an ornamental reason -- fine. But if it's out of necessity, not fine. Those who join groups out of necessities are abused by the group every time. I intend to stop that pattern.

 

This troublesome "individual", this self is the reason we're in this mess (samsara) to begin with right?

 

Ha!! NOT AT ALL! Individual is the most perfect an beautiful thing there is. It is Buddha. The reason we are in this mess is that the individual has delegated its power and responsibility to others. Individual is not all fake. Individual has delusions about one's capacities and confused certain limited forms with one's true essence. But individual is not ALL fake. Individual is also very true. Were that not so then individuals would have no hope to gain anything from contemplation and meditation. Individual is what will become free, but individual is not what you think it is. It is what I know it is, and if you like I can introduce you. But heck if you read my post I already introduced you so many times, that if you don't get it by now, maybe you are stuck.

 

For clarification learning things presided over by a given lineage and joining a lineage are two very different things, you do not need to necessarily join a lineage to learn some of its highest level practices. In most cases you will simply be asked to honor the request for secrecy, the reason for which already having been explained.

 

Simply? Hahaha... Bullcrap. What has been explained? I read all kinds of explanations for secrecy and all of them without exception were utter bullcrap. I am putting an end to it right now. I will make available every teaching you can think of to such an extent that teachings will fall from the sky and only morons would pay for them (similar to those who pay for bottled water, I suppose ). It will be like selling ice to eskimos. That's what I intend to do.

 

The Catholic comparison can hardly be abided, apples and oranges.

 

It doesn't matter at all if it's good or bad, true or false lineage, lost lineage or non-lineage. The point is to show the principle at work and not to quibble over a detail.

 

I might as well say this "The tummo transmission can give you ideas that are incompatible with your tendencies and eminent potentials, but those who transmit it, don't care about that. They give you something and if you were to transmit it to others (if you are even "allowed"), you have to do so in the same way you got it, whether you find that to be good or not is not regarded by the lineage as relevant information". The point is that lineage based knowledge makes what people think largely irrelevant. People's creativity is always suppressed by the lineages. You are told all the specifics on how to do this and that and you are never ENCOURAGED to imagine whatever you want. You get green Tara and red Tara and so on. What if I want to imagine Garfield? Who cares? Why Tara? Why not a maroon-purple-red polka dot Tara? Why not Taramara? Ah? See? Lineage puts you on a railroad. It does not promote experimentation and exploration. Lineage tells you, "you are a moron, so listen to me who is not a moron...it is like THIS" and you cannot deviate from it. It is demeaning and false.

 

"...Subhuti a bodhisattva who creates the perception of a being cannot be called a "bodhisattva". And why not? Subhuti, no one can be called a bhodisattva who creates the perception of a self or who creates the perception of a being, a life or a soul."

 

Bullshit quote when taken out of context. Let me add my context to declaw that quote:

 

Then, the crown prince Manjusri said to the Licchavi Vimalakirti, "Noble sir, how does the bodhisattva follow the way to attain the qualities of the Buddha?"

 

Vimalakirti replied, "Manjusri, when the bodhisattva follows the wrong way, he follows the way to attain the qualities of the Buddha."

 

Manjusri continued, "How does the bodhisattva follow the wrong way?"

 

Vimalakirti replied, "Even should he enact the five deadly sins, he feels no malice, violence, or hate. Even should he go into the hells, he remains free of all taint of passions. Even should he go into the states of the animals, he remains free of darkness and ignorance. When he goes into the states of the asuras, he remains free of pride, conceit, and arrogance. When he goes into the realm of the lord of death, he accumulates the stores of merit and wisdom. When he goes into the states of motionlessness and immateriality, he does not dissolve therein.

 

"He may follow the ways of desire, yet he stays free of attachment to the enjoyments of desire. He may follow the ways of hatred, yet he feels no anger to any living being. He may follow the ways of folly, yet he is ever conscious with the wisdom of firm understanding.

 

"He may follow the ways of avarice, yet he gives away all internal and external things without regard even for his own life. He may follow the ways of immorality, yet, seeing the horror of even the slightest transgressions, he lives by the ascetic practices and austerities. He may follow the ways of wickedness and anger, yet he remains utterly free of malice and lives by love. He may follow the ways of laziness, yet his efforts are uninterrupted as he strives in the cultivation of roots of virtue. He may follow the ways of sensuous distraction, yet, naturally concentrated, his contemplation is not dissipated. He may follow the ways of false wisdom, yet, having reached the transcendence of wisdom, he is expert in all mundane and transcendental sciences.

 

"He may show the ways of sophistry and contention, yet he is always conscious of ultimate meanings and has perfected the use of liberative techniques. He may show the ways of pride, yet he serves as a bridge and a ladder for all people. He may show the ways of the passions, yet he is utterly dispassionate and naturally pure. He may follow the ways of the Maras, yet he does not really accept their authority in regard to his knowledge of the qualities of the Buddha. He may follow the ways of the disciples, yet he lets living beings hear the teaching they have not heard before. He may follow the ways of the solitary sages, yet he is inspired with great compassion in order to develop all living beings.

 

"He may follow the ways of the poor, yet he holds in his hand a jewel of inexhaustible wealth. He may follow the ways of cripples, yet he is beautiful and well adorned with the auspicious signs and marks. He may follow the ways of those of lowly birth, yet, through his accumulation of the stores of merit and wisdom, he is born in the family of the Tathagatas. He may follow the ways of the weak, the ugly, and the wretched, yet he is beautiful to look upon, and his body is like that of Narayana.

 

"He may manifest to living beings the ways of the sick and the unhappy, yet he has entirely conquered and transcended the fear of death.

 

"He may follow the ways of the rich, yet he is without acquisitiveness and often reflects upon the notion of impermanence.

 

He may show himself engaged in dancing with harem girls, yet he cleaves to solitude, having crossed the swamp of desire.

 

"He follows the ways of the dumb and the incoherent, yet, having acquired the power of incantations, he is adorned with a varied eloquence.

 

"He follows the ways of the heterodox without ever becoming heterodox. He follows the ways of all the world, yet he reverses all states of existence. He follows the way of liberation without ever abandoning the progress of the world.

 

"Manjusri, thus does the bodhisattva follow the wrong ways, thereby following the way to the qualities of the Buddha."

 

But who cares about that? I don't need to quote anything anyway. I just do it cause I enjoy the process.

Edited December 5, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Mak_Tin_Si]

You are right, there is a lot of factors to consider and worried when you have lots of money to spend in your life every month or day. and THAT IS WHY I am posting this to let people know by giving out money for donations or sacrifies, it is very very very very meaningful. Because you are also giving out LOTS of things when you give up money. With all these worry, you can still give money out, that is call brave and you are said to really give out your heart. It is easy to give a piece of clothings or a plate of food, but not money. That is why giving out money means more than anything. So that is why Taoism temple use money for karma decreasing. You pay a bunch of money for donations to decrease the bad karma you did and avoid obstacles or troubles in life. That is why we use money for donations. If you have so much to worry, that means you cannot give up yourself or sacrifies for the bad deeds you have done.

 

 

I don't have a problem with money or giving money to someone who helps you a lot.

 

The problem is when the money prohibits you from being able to learn or whatnot.

 

Some people have to work two jobs to pay the rent or pay for their kids' schooling, or maybe they work full time to pay for their own part time education, or maybe work part time to pay for their own education. For those are still students, college education is expensive and in most professions is quite necessary. Even for people out of school who manage their money well, there are some things that just happen and those cost money to fix.

 

So when it comes down to making a payment on your house vs. paying money to a daoist teacher...

 

Or when it comes to paying your school tuition or paying money to a daoist teacher...

 

Or paying your kid's medical bill vs a daoist teacher....

 

You get the idea.

 

I have nothing wrong with money, I just have a problem when things become cost prohibitive.

 

 

Oh of course FREE or DIY is not worthless, but just that for whatever you have learned DIY or FREE is not keepable for a long time. That is because what you give out for the knowledge is not enough to balance out. Unless what you get is very shitty. If for example you are learning all these taichi from tape or VCD which cost you only $5 USD. Then your taichi will only be so shitty after 10yrs of practise. Whether on the other side, you can learn taichi from a master for $100/hr and you will improve faster while your taichi can be so good in 1yr or so.

 

Of course, cost and the $ sign doesn't really match the quality sometimes because there are people teaching with some kind of crazy price. Rip-offs and fake masters. But on the other hand, you as the student paying out more really means you will gain more.

 

If you get ripped off, that means you did your responsibility of paying the amount, it is just the teacher's fault of no teaching you what you are suppose to learn. So on the karma chart, he owns you. So in his and your life, he will pay back the karma in another way. Or if not cancelled out this life, he pays you back next life.

 

For example he teach you fake kungfu for $1000 per hour now for 3 hrs. So he did own you $3000 worth of kungfu teaching this life. Then he flew somewhere and dissappeared. Next life, he will have to come back to you and maybe you don't even know him, but he lost $3000 to you. Maybe he have crashed your car next life and need to pay off some $$$. Karma works by itself, and no matter now or later, it will be balanced off.

 

As a taoist learner, we must not fear to loose or fail. No matter what, your money and effort pays off. When you want to learn, you must be ready to pay. Money, time, effort.. etc,.

 

Finding short cuts for FREE or DIY will only lead to a stage where you will forget or loose all the stuff you learned in the future. I know kungfu master who learn from VCD and tapes, they forget the forms in 2 weeks, longest of 1 yrs, they will forget or loose interest in the forms. With those who learn from real masters for a long period, their forms are still there in 40 years.

 

That is why I say DIY or FREE stuff are not good for learners. They are okay for reference ONLY.

 

 

 

 

While I agree that payment in relation to gaining knowledge is not a bad thing I take issue with the idea that things that are "FREE or DIY" are of no value. Just because it's free does not mean it is worthless, quite the contrary in my experience.

 

Interesting topic. Especially since I am off to private T'ai-Chi instruction this very minute!

 

 

The master is who prepare the food for you, what you are paying is the cooking and the service. If you think your concept is right, then the master you are talking about is really shitty and not qualified to be a master.

 

Having a good master is fate, but a good master can be met when you have enough good karma which lead to a shed of light in your life. Now, by having the chance it doens't means you can make use of the opportunity. But at least you have a chance.

 

So before having the chance, what you can do is improve your living habbit and try to generate more good karma and doing less bad karma to bring better luck and generate bigger chance for you to be able to meet a good master in life. Not to just try to learn everything yourself and be a master.

 

EXAMPLE; When you are starving, you go and find a resturant. The more hungery you are, and you do not know how to cook, you try to find resturants and then maybe you find phone numbers to call for food delivery and maybe just run down to a place and get food. You do not know how to cook, if you cook when you are starving, I think there is a big chance that you will screw up your house and mess up the kitchen without anything to eat. You see babies cook themselves? I wonder what happen. Maybe they just rather drink the soya sauce RAW and eat the meat RAW. Then they say, Eww.. meat are nasty!

 

Now a pro. cook will look and say..No.. Meat is not like that, it have to cooked.. with this this this.. and then this.. and then you have to bake it .. and there is a sauce.. etc,. Now you have eat with this this this.. and then this... after you eat, you have to do this...etc,. Babies are staring at the cook and say.. No, I don;t like to eat meat, it is nasty.

 

 

Concepts upon concepts upon concepts. A gust of insight will blow the house of cards down. There is nothing wrong with paying your time and effort for a master's help. But, as J.Krishnamurti puts it so well, we can't satisfy our hunger by reading the menu, talking about how if you put this and that together it will taste wonderful and it will nurish you, etc. We need to actually eat to cure the hunger.

 

One can prepare your food for you or you can prepare it yourself.

 

I do not for one second believe that someone MUST pay for freedom with money however I do think it's an option.

 

Just remember though, someone who has already eaten and describes the sensation of feeling full cannot take away your hunger for you, you have to eat for yourself and digest for yourself otherwise you will die with all the knowledge of the menu but with an empty belly.

 

 

To the ANTI-lineage people above :

 

I suggest you can ignore school and just get a job then. I think you can survive beter without learning a school. I think maybe you have really got rip off by some crazy fake masters. Unless you really do not know about taoism lineages.......

 

Taoism lineage system is not what you think it is like. But there is no point of talking about it unless you are open enough to experience it yourself and then judge it again later on.

 

I see ladies who got cheated by a guy and say that "all men in the world are cheaters" to people all the time like as if they are advertising and promoting this point to all ladies to avoid people from getting their love ones or even getting pregnant. Yet I feel sorry for their past experience but I feel sorry for the others who listen to them. It is a disaster in nature to have these ladies shouting around to pollute the world too. If all men are cheaters, how can ladies get pregnant? There will be no babies in the world!

[goldisheavy]

Oh of course FREE or DIY is not worthless, but just that for whatever you have learned DIY or FREE is not keepable for a long time.

 

It's actually exactly the opposite of this. Whatever you learn on your own you get to keep. But whatever you have been entrusted with, is later on taken away from you, because you get that knowledge conditionally, whereas your own learning is unconditional.

 

Considering how you consistently deceive people, why would anyone expect you to become truthful if they pay money? You are spreading lies and deceptions, and this creates very heavy retributive energy for you.

 

MTS, you accumulate especially bad energy, because if you were spreading the same lies as a regular person, you wouldn't be taken as seriously. But some people take you more seriously because of your position within society. Because of this reason you get far more bad energy. I don't understand how you intend to fix that imbalance. Oh wait, I do accept donations! Send your check or money order to me. Info available upon request.

 

In your case you will need to donate a LOT of money, considering all the money you stole from people and the lies you've spread about people's true nature.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

The art of using money is important. That is why Taoism teach you to do "BO SI" which means to give out your own money and things to others and those in suffer. It comes back to you in another form or another time when you need it. The way of karma works.

 

When you try to learn people's stuff yourself, you will be not able to keep it without paying anything.

 

Like walking, of course you do not need to pay.

 

When you want to learn something like calculus math, you need to pay for teaching. Who and which baby can learn that themselves. Taoism study is even like the university and phd stuff.. you think you can get it from the bottom to all with yourself??? Masters and masters spend over thousands of years to find all these knowledge and build this massive system. You think you can get it yourself and DIY? Wow, I wonder what kind of brain you have in your head. 100GHz cpu...?

 

 

 

It's actually exactly the opposite of this. Whatever you learn on your own you get to keep. But whatever you have been entrusted with, is later on taken away from you, because you get that knowledge conditionally, whereas your own learning is unconditional.

 

Considering how you consistently deceive people, why would anyone expect you to become truthful if they pay money? You are spreading lies and deceptions, and this creates very heavy retributive energy for you.

 

MTS, you accumulate especially bad energy, because if you were spreading the same lies as a regular person, you wouldn't be taken as seriously. But some people take you more seriously because of your position within society. Because of this reason you get far more bad energy. I don't understand how you intend to fix that imbalance. Oh wait, I do accept donations! Send your check or money order to me. Info available upon request.

 

In your case you will need to donate a LOT of money, considering all the money you stole from people and the lies you've spread about people's true nature.

[trenna1]

 

 

Thank you for a lively conversation. Best of luck.

[goldisheavy]

Thank you for a lively conversation. Best of luck.

 

You are welcome and thank you too.

[goldisheavy]

When you try to learn people's stuff yourself, you will be not able to keep it without paying anything.

 

When I teach people, I don't teach them my own stuff, I teach them what they already know. That's why I don't request payment. What I do is honest. But what you do is pretentious, and you request payment for your pretense as well.

 

When you want to learn something like calculus math, you need to pay for teaching.

 

That's because mathematics is a mundane science and all mundane knowledge costs money. That's the very essence of mundanity. But mundanity is something we aim to transcend here, and Dao has a way to transcend it. And it doesn't involve selling or buying anything as a necessary precondition.

 

Who and which baby can learn that themselves. Taoism study is even like the university and phd stuff.. you think you can get it from the bottom to all with yourself???

 

No, I will also rely on friends who treat me well, and not people who want to lord over me.

 

Masters and masters spend over thousands of years to find all these knowledge and build this massive system. You think you can get it yourself and DIY? Wow, I wonder what kind of brain you have in your head. 100GHz cpu...?

 

I have Dao in my head. Same as Fu Hsi and the Yellow Emperor and Zhuangzi. How about you? What do you have? A z80 8-bit CPU? What do you have?

 

Anyway, if anyone wants to donate money, I recommend they donate it to people in need and not to any temple, unless that temple helps to liberate people from fears instead of perpetuating fears and superstitions. There are reputable charities and there are homeless people everywhere. Just go there and donate money or food.

 

Finally, it's easier to donate money because it's just a dollar bill in your pocket, or a little click click on the computer. But to donate an object like food or a towel takes effort. You have to buy it and wrap it and send it. At the very least you have to fill out more information and click more times on the computer. And if you mean attachment, that's very individual. Some people are more attached to objects, some more to cache, and some are just attached to laziness and don't care if it's money or objects, but just care what requires less body movement to do. Considering this is an individual quality and you said that money is always harder to donate, you are again lying.

[YMWong]

The art of using money is important. That is why Taoism teach you to do "BO SI" which means to give out your own money and things to others and those in suffer.

 

Great !

 

Can people come to you, study your stuff, get your talisman and give money to those in need and who suffer ?

 

I think it is great, than people can make remittances to Unicef is that OK with you ?

 

YM

[wudangquan]

Man Tak Si,

 

With all due respect . . .

 

Rather than telling people, or trying to condition them that they should give money "because money is the most important thing to you" -

 

I feel you should try to de-condition people from their attachment to money.

 

There is nothing wrong with charging a fee or moneys. When I finish my work on my teachers material - I will charge as well. But it's just because I/he/they should conform with something normal in society and in society people trade money for some type of intangible value.

 

But to intentionally re-enforce peoples attachments is a mistake, I think.

 

Saying the reason is money being the most important thing to someone, and saying it from a position of authority has this effect IMHO.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jonathan

Edited December 5, 2008 by wudangquan

[Pero]

What's DYI?

[Sloppy Zhang]

You are right, there is a lot of factors to consider and worried when you have lots of money to spend in your life every month or day. and THAT IS WHY I am posting this to let people know by giving out money for donations or sacrifies, it is very very very very meaningful.

 

I'm not necessarily saying it's not meaningful. What I'm getting at is, is it (for lack of a better word) "fair"?

 

Is it "fair" for someone to put a price tag on something? Is it fair for you to say, "well sure you can use your money to put food on your family's table, or you can use it to buy the tao, which is it?"

 

Granted, a lot of people aren't in those dire circumstances, but I hope you get the general idea.

 

Because you are also giving out LOTS of things when you give up money. With all these worry, you can still give money out, that is call brave and you are said to really give out your heart. It is easy to give a piece of clothings or a plate of food, but not money. That is why giving out money means more than anything. So that is why Taoism temple use money for karma decreasing. You pay a bunch of money for donations to decrease the bad karma you did and avoid obstacles or troubles in life. That is why we use money for donations. If you have so much to worry, that means you cannot give up yourself or sacrifies for the bad deeds you have done.

 

Those sound like the indulgences that the Church used to have and all their official "pardoners" and all that business.... well you see what that led to.

 

Oh of course FREE or DIY is not worthless, but just that for whatever you have learned DIY or FREE is not keepable for a long time. That is because what you give out for the knowledge is not enough to balance out. Unless what you get is very shitty. If for example you are learning all these taichi from tape or VCD which cost you only $5 USD. Then your taichi will only be so shitty after 10yrs of practise. Whether on the other side, you can learn taichi from a master for $100/hr and you will improve faster while your taichi can be so good in 1yr or so.

 

 

$5 USD for a tape or VCD... lol.

 

Sorry but DVD's are the thing now... and those are a LOT more than $5. In a lot of cases it's actually more expensive to buy DVD's than it is to just join a school or follow a teacher. $50-$60 for one DVD, and there are usually multiple DVD's in the set, so you are looking for at least 3-5x that. Then you've got books that go along with stuff like that. I hate to name this guy, but look at Yang Jwing-Ming's stuff... you buy the $30 book then the $50 DVD, then the special $40 DVD on weapons and another of equal price on meditation, another on actually application.....

 

For that amount of money I can go down to the karate school, pay a ridiculous amount of money for a contracted membership... and then learn how to not fight.

 

So.... yeah. Not trying to insult you, but let's get the facts straight. There aren't any good MA schools in my area, and a bad MA school nearly got me seriously injured, so I've looked at the distance learning/learn by book/DVD and it's a helluva lot more expensive... but sometimes the quality is a LOT better than anything you could receive in person.

 

You have to take it where you can get it.

 

Of course, cost and the $ sign doesn't really match the quality sometimes because there are people teaching with some kind of crazy price. Rip-offs and fake masters. But on the other hand, you as the student paying out more really means you will gain more.

 

I think you just contradicted yourself....

 

As you said, if the teacher is bogus or sucky, you can pay all the money in the world and you can actually end up hurting yourself.

 

If you get ripped off, that means you did your responsibility of paying the amount, it is just the teacher's fault of no teaching you what you are suppose to learn. So on the karma chart, he owns you. So in his and your life, he will pay back the karma in another way. Or if not cancelled out this life, he pays you back next life.

 

For example he teach you fake kungfu for $1000 per hour now for 3 hrs. So he did own you $3000 worth of kungfu teaching this life. Then he flew somewhere and dissappeared. Next life, he will have to come back to you and maybe you don't even know him, but he lost $3000 to you. Maybe he have crashed your car next life and need to pay off some $$$. Karma works by itself, and no matter now or later, it will be balanced off.

 

Yes but if you get mugged and seriously injured and your kung fu actually ends up hurting you... well.... that doesn't really help you in the present moment. You have to look at this thing on all levels. Sure, he may owe you... right, well, there are tons of people who are in financial debt or something, but if they don't have any money to pay the lenders back, the lenders still don't have any money. Sure, the person owes them some... but that doesn't help the lender, who may have to give money to someone else.

 

The I Owe You system is nice in theory... but doesn't get anything done.

 

As a taoist learner, we must not fear to loose or fail. No matter what, your money and effort pays off. When you want to learn, you must be ready to pay. Money, time, effort.. etc,.

 

Finding short cuts for FREE or DIY will only lead to a stage where you will forget or loose all the stuff you learned in the future. I know kungfu master who learn from VCD and tapes, they forget the forms in 2 weeks, longest of 1 yrs, they will forget or loose interest in the forms. With those who learn from real masters for a long period, their forms are still there in 40 years.

 

I learned karate from a scam school, forked over tons of cash and almost got my ass handed to me in return by someone looking to start a fight.

 

I forked over more cash for books and DVD's on real self defense, and within a week I was much better at self defense and able to take the black belts at the karate school I was at.

 

So.... yeah, it depends on 1) the quality of the instruction and 2) the quality of the student.

 

Under normal circumstances, I would not recommend people to learn from books or DVD tapes. But if you have had experience in actual fights or combat and physical training, then I say go for it. You know basic concepts, you know what to do and what not to do already, you just have to learn how to do it.

 

That is why I say DIY or FREE stuff are not good for learners. They are okay for reference ONLY.

The master is who prepare the food for you, what you are paying is the cooking and the service. If you think your concept is right, then the master you are talking about is really shitty and not qualified to be a master.

 

Having a good master is fate, but a good master can be met when you have enough good karma which lead to a shed of light in your life. Now, by having the chance it doens't means you can make use of the opportunity. But at least you have a chance.

 

So before having the chance, what you can do is improve your living habbit and try to generate more good karma and doing less bad karma to bring better luck and generate bigger chance for you to be able to meet a good master in life. Not to just try to learn everything yourself and be a master.

 

EXAMPLE; When you are starving, you go and find a resturant. The more hungery you are, and you do not know how to cook, you try to find resturants and then maybe you find phone numbers to call for food delivery and maybe just run down to a place and get food. You do not know how to cook, if you cook when you are starving, I think there is a big chance that you will screw up your house and mess up the kitchen without anything to eat. You see babies cook themselves? I wonder what happen. Maybe they just rather drink the soya sauce RAW and eat the meat RAW. Then they say, Eww.. meat are nasty!

 

Now a pro. cook will look and say..No.. Meat is not like that, it have to cooked.. with this this this.. and then this.. and then you have to bake it .. and there is a sauce.. etc,. Now you have eat with this this this.. and then this... after you eat, you have to do this...etc,. Babies are staring at the cook and say.. No, I don;t like to eat meat, it is nasty.

To the ANTI-lineage people above :

 

I suggest you can ignore school and just get a job then. I think you can survive beter without learning a school. I think maybe you have really got rip off by some crazy fake masters. Unless you really do not know about taoism lineages.......

 

Taoism lineage system is not what you think it is like. But there is no point of talking about it unless you are open enough to experience it yourself and then judge it again later on.

 

Or you could pick up a DIY cook book and learn how to cook for yourself.....

 

That's how my friend got good at cooking.

 

And that's how another friend got good with computers... got a book, got a computer, tinkered around...

 

There are good and bad points for BOTH sides of the argument.

 

Done CORRECTLY, anything can be good.

 

Done INCORRECTLY, anything can be bad.

 

I see ladies who got cheated by a guy and say that "all men in the world are cheaters" to people all the time like as if they are advertising and promoting this point to all ladies to avoid people from getting their love ones or even getting pregnant. Yet I feel sorry for their past experience but I feel sorry for the others who listen to them. It is a disaster in nature to have these ladies shouting around to pollute the world too. If all men are cheaters, how can ladies get pregnant? There will be no babies in the world!

 

Actually there would be too many babies in the world because the men would be cheating with so many women and... yeah, sorry, just had to add something humorous to lighten the mood

 

Well it's not really a funny subject, but... well you get the idea.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

What I am explaining in this initial post is explaining the KARMA of what donation is done with money in the temple and others. If you the one above cannot understand what I am saying, that is too bad. It is maybe too confusing to understand a few paragraphs. Usually this knowledge is taught to people by years of learnings to make them understand why donation with money works and what it is call a good deed. It is just a sharing of info and theory, please read before you reply and comment.

[Sloppy Zhang]

What I am explaining in this initial post is explaining the KARMA of what donation is done with money in the temple and others. If you the one above cannot understand what I am saying, that is too bad. It is maybe too confusing to understand a few paragraphs. Usually this knowledge is taught to people by years of learnings to make them understand why donation with money works and what it is call a good deed. It is just a sharing of info and theory, please read before you reply and comment.

 

Yes let's do.

 

What you said:

Because you are also giving out LOTS of things when you give up money. With all these worry, you can still give money out, that is call brave and you are said to really give out your heart. It is easy to give a piece of clothings or a plate of food, but not money. That is why giving out money means more than anything. So that is why Taoism temple use money for karma decreasing. You pay a bunch of money for donations to decrease the bad karma you did and avoid obstacles or troubles in life. That is why we use money for donations. If you have so much to worry, that means you cannot give up yourself or sacrifies for the bad deeds you have done.

 

What I said:

Those sound like the indulgences that the Church used to have and all their official "pardoners" and all that business.... well you see what that led to.

 

If you don't know what Church indulgences are, basically a long time ago the Church had these indulgences, and if you bought them it lessened your time spent in purgatory. If you don't know what purgatory is, basically after you die you go to purgatory and all of your lesser qualities and sins are burned away. Even if you are a good person, you still have lower qualities that must be burned away before you are pure enough to go into Heaven. There are a few cases in which a person can skip purgatory (like the Pope if I recall correctly) but essentially for normal people, you'll be in purgatory for X amount of years before you are allowed into Heaven.

 

So the more you bought indulgences, the less time you spent in purgatory. You're a nice person, but oh, when you stubbed your toe you cursed... well that's +2 years in purgatory, but you can buy 5 indulgences and erase those 2 years. Oh, guess what? We just found out that your uncle who passed away last week picked on his younger brother when they were kids, that's +15 years in purgatory, but if you buy a bunch of indulgences you can lessen his time spent in purgatory. Oh and if you don't buy them, that's +5 years in purgatory for you.

 

See where I am going with this?

 

Donating money to get rid of karma is a similar concept to the Church indulgences. The idea that you can "buy your way out of spiritual matters" is present in the Church indulgences and in your post.

 

The real question is why would physical money make a difference to spiritual matters? It WOULDN'T. It's the thought ASSOCIATED with that money. That being said, the money isn't important, but, as the saying goes, "it's the thought that counts." If you donate clothes with the same feeling as someone who donates an equal amount of money, what's the problem? It could still be a great personal sacrifice.

 

But to say that only money (physical) can get rid of karma/purgatory time (spiritual) seems HIGHLY sketch.

 

It is also a terrible thing for the people who don't have any extra cash. Maybe they have 5 or 6 shirts total in their wardrobe, but no extra cash, so instead they donate 2 or 3 shirts, sparing as much extra as they can, oh but that's not "as good as money" so their donation "isn't as good". I'm sorry, but that... I dunno, I can't think of anything civil to say to that. Where do you get off on judging someone's sacrifice as "good enough" or not? Are you psychic? Do YOU know what they have gone through to give that to you?

 

Unless you KNOW for 10000% certainty what their feelings are, you have NO RIGHT to judge their sacrifice like that.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Pero]

LOL I missed that. You can't decrease negative karma with donations and stuff, but you can increase positive karma (which doesn't mean negative just goes away).

Though maybe it's good business to say that you can.