Immortals

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Can someone explain what the Immortals are. I have read alot of conflicting descriptions and I am unsure (and I will probably get alot of conflicting descriptions as an answer to this question.... but i will take a chance).

 

Thank You.

[Starjumper]

The types you have read about aren't necessarily conflicting as there are quite a few types of immortals.

[goldisheavy]

Can someone explain what the Immortals are. I have read alot of conflicting descriptions and I am unsure (and I will probably get alot of conflicting descriptions as an answer to this question.... but i will take a chance).

 

Thank You.

 

Simply put a mortal is a being who perceives conditions for birth and death. An immortal is someone who does not.

 

To a mortal, life is attached to an identity. For example, a mortal thinks "Bob is alive". The mortal does not think "there is life". So life is always ascribed to an identity or to an agent that is considered to be the one "alive". Due to this kind of perception, because the agents have causes and conditions for their arising and dispersal, these are called birth and death, correspondingly.

 

So how would you become an immortal? Essentially you have to question the boundaries of your identity. Where does you stop and the world begin? Is there a boundary? What is you? What is not you? How can you know what is not you if all you feel is your own mind? If you feel things that are not your own mind, how do you know what is your mind and what is not your mind? Etc. These are the kinds of questions you should ask.

 

After you realize that identities are not what they seem to be, you will later realize they don't have a clear starting and an ending point. At this point you will lose your identity as a mortal and become an immortal. You won't have a clear identity and nor would you be clearly without one either. You'll see.

 

Another way to put it is this -- an immortal is someone who does not share the concerns of mortals. In the true yin and yang fashion, in order to know what an immortal is you have to know what a mortal is. They both depend on each other in terms of cognition.

Edited December 2, 2008 by goldisheavy

[JackSquat]

I hate to say this, but even if a true Immortal deigned to write us right now on this thread, I don't think there would be anything that could be said that would convey the true extent of what that word means, and anything thing else is more or less just hearsay. It is my impression, though, that due to dogmatic/perceptual differences there are different conceptions of how one should go about reaching that state, and that different processes produce different types of Immortals, to put it all quite mechanically. Some will tell you that their own dogmatic conception of "Immortal" is the only true one, but I tend to think that they are all paths up the same mountain.

 

The types you have read about aren't necessarily conflicting as there are quite a few types of immortals.

 

In a nutshell .

 

 

edit: wording

Edited December 2, 2008 by JackSquat

[Ken]

According to Ancestors Zhong and Lu's tradition. There are objective ways of defining what an immortal is. There are several categories of immortals and they are (these are a combination of explanations in the classic mixed with some info i know):

 

(1) Ghost Immortal.

 

People who seeks short cut and quick effects follow the minor path. They cultivate until their Yin Shen can leave their body (note: most of the so called out of body experience or astroprojection i believe ) and think that they have ascended. But they are in actuality just ghosts, after they died, they can stick around for awhile but eventually they have to go back into reincarnation. When they are alive, if they let their yin shen leave the body one too often, the yin shen won't be able to come back and they become a real ghost sooner .

 

(2) Human Immortal.

 

People who don't understand the great Dao but who has learned an incomplete authentic method. Even though it's an incomplete method, it let them enjoy good health while alive, they are resistant to most diseases. In Ling Bao Bi Fa, you complete the human immortal method after the Mating of the Dragon and Tiger, the intercourse of true yin and true yang and the immortal embryo is formed.

 

(3) Terrestrial Immortal.

 

People who are half way to become a true immortal. They have the qualities to advance but they haven't completely understood the great Dao yet. They are resistant to diseases and enjoy great longevity. In Ling Bao Bi Fa, one has completed the terrestrial immortal method after the level of Golden Liquid Restoration Cinnabar. The golden liquid transform and refine the body completely from the bone marrows to the skin.

 

(4) Immortal. (the regular kind )

 

Terrestrial Immortal who continue on the great path non-stop and who eventually form the Yang Shen from their cultivation. The Yang Shen can then jump out of the mortal realm into the heaven and be real cool.

 

(5) Celestial Immortal.

 

Basically Immortal who have done great deeds and who have made the world a better place.

 

 

 

Just like going to school to study, most people will get a high school diploma but only a few can go on and get a PhD. The same is true in cultivation, most people can obtain some result (probably human immortal) but only very few can become a true immortal. To become a true immortal a necessary but not sufficient condition is for one to be ethical, be kind and be good etc etc. If you want to become an immortal, you need to stop and ask yourself what have you done that make you deserve it?

Edited December 2, 2008 by Ken

[Ya Mu]

Can someone explain what the Immortals are..

 

Thank You.

 

You!

[三江源]

 

(1) Ghost Immortal.

 

People who seeks short cut and quick effects follow the minor path. They cultivate until their Yin Shen can leave their body (note: most of the so called out of body experience or astroprojection i believe ) and think that they have ascended. But they are in actuality just ghosts, after they died, they can stick around for awhile but eventually they have to go back into reincarnation. When they are alive, if they let their yin shen leave the body one too often, the yin shen won't be able to come back and they become a real ghost sooner .

 

 

 

Groovy answer, Ken.

 

I have been wondering lately about people who are into astral travel. Simple question... forgive me for asking it, because it is absurdly simple.. why do they do it? what is the point? is it just curiosity on their part, a desire for adventure, or is there actually a benefit from it?

[Taoist81]

Groovy answer, Ken.

 

I have been wondering lately about people who are into astral travel. Simple question... forgive me for asking it, because it is absurdly simple.. why do they do it? what is the point? is it just curiosity on their part, a desire for adventure, or is there actually a benefit from it?

 

In the A.'.A.'. the task of the Neophyte is to gain "complete mastery of the Astral Plane" (a bit of hyperbole to drive home a point for the Neophyte). This is because for any occult work the astral is involved. In meditations one must be able to block off oneself from the astral, and in "magick" the entities one works with interact with the magician, for the most part, through the astral. Of course this is preliminary, Crowley (one of the founders of the Order) pointed out that eventually one ceases travelling on the astral in one's Body of Light (which must be built and fortified through various practices) but rather, just opens one's astral eyes to the plane without seperating the bodies.

Those who practice astral travel as a goal on its own (like the Bruce or Monroe styles) must have their own reasons..?..

[Ken]

Groovy answer, Ken.

 

I have been wondering lately about people who are into astral travel. Simple question... forgive me for asking it, because it is absurdly simple.. why do they do it? what is the point? is it just curiosity on their part, a desire for adventure, or is there actually a benefit from it?

 

 

Actually I shouldn't specifically mention astroprojection since i actually don't know that much about it (it just sounds something like yin shen leaving the body). If during meditation, one "leaves" his/her body and roam around, I will say that is Yin Shen roaming. (no one else can see the yin shen whereas other people can see the Yang Shen)

 

Why do people do it? Well, yin shen roaming is also a level of achievement. During one's cultivation, one can eventually do it. There are two problems with it. Firstly, most people probably don't have enough internal strength (accumulated through practice) to let the yin shen go home. The more the yin shen go out the likelier that it mightn't be able to return and become a real ghost. Second problem is that when some people reached this stage, they thought that's it, they have ascended, and after they are dead, they realise that they are just a ghost.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Ken

[goldisheavy]

The same is true in cultivation, most people can obtain some result (probably human immortal) but only very few can become a true immortal.

 

I wouldn't say that. Anyone can become an immortal, but very few will have the genuine motivation, the real intent to become one, because the departure from the mundane mindset is so great, while the benefit from a mortal's point of view is very uncertain and almost fairy tale like.

 

So it's not that people lack the ability, it's that people's beliefs condition the direction and the scope of their intent, which determines the level of motivation and the level of spiritual brilliance the person will experience.

 

The good news is that all the beliefs can be transformed with time. Mind is very creative. Those people that use the power of the mind in small ways see results and gain confidence. Later they attempt bigger creations and again they see results, and again they gain confidence. As long as the practice remains sincere and done with utmost inner honesty (no self-lies), and as long as it is steady, make it into who you are and not just what you do, eventually you get what you want.

 

You have to keep your mind critically thinking though. The reason you need to think critically (which is not the same thing as thinking negatively, it just means thinking carefully and not taking things for granted), is because mind is creative. If you uncritically operate under some assumptions, the mind has a tendency to manifest those assumptions into facts, and you may be none the wiser! You might think you got it, but what you got is just one particular creation of mind! And the only way to see the bigger picture is to challenge your core beliefs and to challenge ALL of your beliefs using your critical thinking ability. Once your beliefs begin to shift, you can experience NEW facts as the mind creates NEW reality. This new reality is just as right and just as valid as the old one, and then you begin to understand that the life is a visionary experience, that it is empty of substance (that is to say, nothing is fixed) but full of radiance and natural play.

 

Also, with regard to the astral travel, whether or not you become a Ghost depends on your intent. It's not easy to become a Ghost accidentally if you don't want to become one, and also, being a Ghost is not so bad anyway. You don't need to eat and drink and you might miss the feeling of substance (feeling of substance doesn't mean there is actual substance though!) and so on. I don't advocate becoming a Ghost, but it's not something that anyone should be scared of. Astral travel is a good thing to do at least once just so you know how powerful the mind is. Then if you want to turn that into a practical skill, you can. If not, you got the point about the power of the mind, and you can move to another exploration. No need to be afraid. Human life is not so precious anyway. It's good, I would say, but to say it's precious would imply one should never let it go, and that's just not the case. Life in general is precious, but this preciousness and this generality includes so many diverse things into it, that the saying is almost meaningless.

[goldisheavy]

I have been wondering lately about people who are into astral travel. Simple question... forgive me for asking it, because it is absurdly simple.. why do they do it? what is the point? is it just curiosity on their part, a desire for adventure, or is there actually a benefit from it?

 

I'll tell you why I did it. I wanted to explore the (what was then) the boundaries of experience, the possibilities. It's one thing to talk about the power of mind and it's another thing to use that power to accomplish something.

 

You must also keep in mind that this "why do it?" question is something you have to ask of things like:

 

Why go to work?

 

Why breathe?

 

Why scratch the itch?

 

Why exercise?

 

Why meditate?

 

Why contemplate?

 

Why want to avoid suffering?

 

Why want pleasure?

 

Why want success?

 

Etc.

 

Don't just limit yourself to "Why astral travel?", because that would be biased.

 

So, if you question mundane actions with the same zeal you question actions you don't fully understand yet, you will make good progress. On the other hand if you question that which you don't understand but don't dispute that which you do, you will be stuck.

[exorcist_1699]

Although many people think that Taoist immortals are something imaginable , people who can read original Taoist writings know that Taoism is a very practical system , things like how to classify people as immortals,

at which stage what phenomena will arise, all are recorded clearly black and white .

 

For example, capable of not eating or releasing jing for 2-3 months is a boundary drawn between ordinary people and immortals;

 

Looking young or unchanged over decades is another criterion .

 

Feel flying / without touching the ground when walking is another phenomenon ( in fact, as your qi accumulated , expanded and mixed with external qi , you do feel flying when walking and can walk several hundreds kilometer tirelessly per day ...)

 

Others such as red blood turn into white /milk color , appear under sunlight without shadow..etc

 

Whether you believe them or not , all these phenomena are written black and white in Taoist writings; they are observable and open to proving ....only narrow-minded guys ignore them without further thinking and blindly succumb themselves to what they worship /call nature and science ...

Edited December 3, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[goldisheavy]

Although many people think that Taoist immortals are something imaginable

 

If imagination is unreal, how can it affect reality? If you imagine a bird and draw a picture of it and I hold a tangible picture, it's a real manifestation of your imagination, is it not? Therefore, imagination is a kind of reality. And reality is imagination, because what we recognize to be real is just that -- a recognition, a function of mind, the same as imagination.

Edited December 3, 2008 by goldisheavy

[Unconditioned]

I hate to say this, but even if a true Immortal deigned to write us right now on this thread, I don't think there would be anything that could be said that would convey the true extent of what that word means, and anything thing else is more or less just hearsay. It is my impression, though, that due to dogmatic/perceptual differences there are different conceptions of how one should go about reaching that state, and that different processes produce different types of Immortals, to put it all quite mechanically. Some will tell you that their own dogmatic conception of "Immortal" is the only true one, but I tend to think that they are all paths up the same mountain.

In a nutshell .

edit: wording

 

Bingo - words cannot represent a thing in and of itself, just a concept... and concepts are subject to our experience, our conditioning. They can however point us in a direction that can allow us to inquire and realize the meaning behind the words... at least I think so... don't take my word for it