deleted

[ron7786]

defunct

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I do not see the avoidance of meat as compassionate like many, I see it as becoming unnatural and undernourished because we are by nature, omnivores. I believe killing and eating animals is part of natures cycle here on earth, although I believe the animals should be treated with dignity and respect, unlike many "flesh farms" of modern society treat them. There is a certain sadness and respect and compassion that should go to any animal we eat, for indeed it died so we may live, but this is the way of nature. Life comes from life on this plane. TO deny this would be against the grain of Tao I think. But enough of that rant...can you help me out?

 

Would it be fine with you if I ate you? I mean... it is only "natural" right?

 

Malnourished if there are no protein alternatives maybe, but not at all if there are.

 

Natural is a word swimming in obscurity.

 

And futhermore, nature is not a unchanging thing, if we all started eating no meat, after many centuries our biologies would adapt... in nature.

 

And do not think yourself exempt from the realm of animals.

[ron7786]

gone

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Anabhogya-Carya]

You are most welcome to your opinion and I am sorry to have offended you as I am aware this is a touchy issue. No, it would not be fine with me if you ate me. But I am quite certain that it is not fine with the grass when the cow eats it. And I am also quite certain the cow dies in protest when the lion bites its jugular. But, the cow must eat, and so must the lion. There is a plant called Mimosa pudica that will curl up its leaves and shy away from human touch because the salt on our fingers takes moisture from it. A plant does not have a brain but it responds to sensory stimuli. They do appear to have some sort of intelligence.

You could become a frugarian or follow the religion of Jainism with their diet. This would consist of you only eating fruits and nuts and plants which drop the edible part of themselves for you to eat so you dont have to kill or "hurt" any living being. But you will do so at the cost of your own health. This may be alright with you however and if it is I consider it a noble, albeit self destructive, sacrifice on your behalf.

Also remember that every time you scratch an itch, or take a bath, or swallow your spit, you kill a multitude of small creatures. This is one reason I do not agree with traditional Karma teachings, with all the killing any complex organism does in a life time, one would never progress if they had to pay karmic debt for each life taken. All life from the biggest elephant to the smallest organism is equal in the big scheme of things. So killing small things is still killing and the weight of severity should still be the same according to karmic law.

Instead I interpret Karma as effecting your future life by how you live now. If you act with maturity and responsibility and respect for things throughout your life you will be born again as a human or perhaps in a higher realm. But if you let your animalistic instincts be the center of consciousness and they control you instead of you being in control of them, then yes you may well be born as an animal.

 

you did not offend me.

And no, the grass does not protest, because it has nothing to protest with or about. A reflex fuction of recoiling is not evidence of intelligence. Killing microscopic organisms is unavoidable when I itch myself or do anything else. But eating meat is avoidable. If something is imperative like swallow spit or bathing than it is a mute point when discussing the negatives of it. It is like saying breathing air is bad because it damages your lungs, because eventually your lungs will break down... absurd. No where did I mention Karma, I was speaking about avoiding undue suffering.

 

Fruit is not a "being" nor can you hurt something without a nervous system or some equivilent system.

 

You avoided clarifying natural because I presume you do not have an answer.

 

You make a category mistake by grouping humans serperate from animals. Humans ARE animals. We have instincts like any other creature, and yes we are attracted to one another and breed as per our biological drive, we kill each other, we get angry, we get depressed, we get pleasure just like any other living being. We form ideologies to combat things that an individual or group feels are improper for whatever reason. Speaking of being natural, I do not think there is anything more "natural" or biologically sensible than our instincts.. the same ones we share with the rest of the world. The ones that make us operate as the things that we are, just another lifeform on earth. Maybe that is why we repress our instincts because we fear being nothing greater than the rest of earth's life.

 

Your species based superiority complex does not in fact make you objectively superior to anything.

[ron7786]

no more me here, almost done.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Anabhogya-Carya]

And please, my friend. Do not think I am trying to school you or to fight with you. I am just presenting a different view. If we cannot agree on this then we will just have to be seperate on this issue. You seem very compassionate towards animals and I can appreciate that, as I too, respect and love animals. And I look forward to the day we can grow meat in a lab so we dont have to kill an animal to eat it. Someday I believe we will be able to just take the genetic makeup of thee tissues we consume and then grow them without having to kill a sentient animal. Is that natural? For evolved man brains, why not

You must do what you must do to stay alive and at the same time you have to be able to do the things that you can live with. If eating meat would make it hard for you to look at yourself in the mirror, then by all means if the guilt is that strong abstain from it.

 

I did not think you were trying to fight.

 

But I was under the impression that forums are for discussion. If you were looking for people to only agree with what you are saying than I advise you not to post anything. I did not hope to convince you of anything I was merely presenting the other side and pointing at what I thought was flawed. This is how philosophies are formed, by discussion, not through declaration and acceptance.

[ron7786]

bye bye.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I do not hold myself above animals. I said all life is equal. Natural means what it is normal and healthy to do. Eating some quantity of meat is natural. Meat is necessary for certain vitamins and minerals and it is also necessary to be able to ABSORB other vitamins and minerals, some of which come from plant sources.Although here in the west, we do eat alot more of it than we need. Part of man's natural ability is being able to say "no" to certain instincts. Otherwise Whenever man got horny, he would rape women, and whenever he got angry, he would kill the cause of his anger. Yes, we are animals, but we ARE mentally superior. Many animals tend to be physically superior to us. Nature endowed man with intelligence. Unfortunatley man can spit in natures face by doing things that are bad for him deliberatly and depending on how we continue to use our intelligence, we will either follow nature and live peaceful and in harmony with it. Or we will end up destroying ourselves by misusing what nature gives us. Currently, it looks like extinction will happen.

LOL! We seem to be replying to eachother in such a way that it throws our continuity of conversation in a strange order. Yea, discussion is ok, I was just worried I was angering you.

 

We are more intelligent (very unwise though). I still think the term natural is misleading, what is natural? I think that it is a unimportant term as everything exists in a natural realm (well I guess that depends who you ask). If natural is to mean doing what our biologies alone tell us, than we tend to be unnatural. But again I think it is a terribly subjective term that is abstract and ultimately meaingless. i.e everything is natural and there is no "unnatural" objectively.

 

Extinction is invevitable if we live in harmony with nature or not. It is a principle of evolution and.. ultimately entropy... a long time from now.

 

I am a vegetarian and I find myself much more healthy than many of my meat eating friends. When no alternatives exist and one must eat meat to get protein and other nutrients then I am fine with it. If an vaiable alternative does exist, one that gives the same health benefits than I think eating meat is nothing more than satisfying a gastromonic preference. And it is the nature in which animals are bred and killed that bothers me most. If the processing of meat was not a mechanized slaughter industry than my opposition would be smaller.

It is not the same as growing up in a field eating grass and one day after living your life being killed, it is suffering from beggining to end.

 

And no you don't anger me. I enjoy talking about these things, not only do they let me see the other side, but also force me to look closely at my own ideas.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Anabhogya-Carya

[ron7786]

durp...

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[ron7786]

peace.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[ron7786]

*dance*

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Looks like when I can afford it again Ill be going lacto-ovo vegetarian. And actually I thank you for helping me to see past my error in that situation. Now My ethic will be higher and my concience clearer because even when I do eat meat thinking that it was necessary i still felt bad about the intentional killing of the critter so I could eat it. Now Ill just have to feel bad about it because now meat is a monetary neccessity.

But again, thank you Anabhogya-Carya. You earn my respect. *bow*

 

Well I was not trying to convert or preach. But if i had that much influence than I am glad. And no I am not Indian. I am north america, but I do have an huge interest and fascination in India and Hinduism, hence the name. And yes, I posted on the ALF website maybe about 3 times, I have not gone back since as I found some of the stuff useful and insightful but most of it reactionary and uninformed.

 

Nonetheless, I am glad I had an impact..

 

And yes, this thread should get back to its original purpose.

[ron7786]

bunga

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Anabhogya-Carya]

. Which would be ok, but I would like to be part of an established tradition if one is out there that I like.

 

 

I have been searching for that same thing for a long time now. Thinking of just starting my own one day if I can't find one.

[exorcist_1699]

I think the history of Taoism maybe complicated , and huge amount of concepts are there for mastering , however, the grasp of three groups of basic concepts are crucial :

 

1) jing-qi-shen

2) post and pre-heavenly

3) yin and yang

 

Others are trivial .

 

Of course, you have to ask yourself why you study Taoism:

 

For scholastic purpose ? healing your disease ? opening 3rd eye? solving life and death issue? In fact, whatever purposes you have, fully understand the mentioned three groups of fundamental concepts are unavoidable .

Edited December 4, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[ron7786]

finished...

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786