Difference between SP or REAL DEMON POSSESION

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As requested from the moderator of TaoBum, I have moved to this forum : http://www.daoismworld.com right now.

 

So if you want to talk to me or ask me anything about Taoism, please feel free to go over to this forum and enjoy the new forum. New members for discussion are also welcomed.

 

http://www.daoismworld.com

 

Mak Tin Si

Edited January 8, 2009 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Loke]

...

Factor 2 - After-effect

 

After the whole process is over, you wake up or get out of bed, do you feel panic and sweat? If you do sweat, feel chill and a bit cold? If you do, that is SURELY not sleep paralizing, the chill and cold feeling is form the YIN energy of the soul or demon, you are SURELY attacked by one.

 

...

 

So if I have lucid dreams or dream paralyses and feel warm and/or energized when I wake up it is not a demon that have possesed me?

[Anabhogya-Carya]

So if I have lucid dreams or dream paralyses and feel warm and/or energized when I wake up it is not a demon that have possesed me?

 

the demon will never possess you, no matter how you feel when you wake up.

[goldisheavy]

We should be very careful with what we choose to validate. You can be a spiritual person and yet not believe in any spirits or ghosts. In other words, belief in ghosts is not a necessity for a cultivator. It's a choice.

 

Depending on your beliefs, the phenomena you will experience will be very different. If you believe in ghosts you will experience them a lot more often than if you do not. If you absolutely believe there are no ghosts, you will never experience a single ghost -- not even one, and you will never hear a reputable story about one. You might read about one, but it will always be from some source of ill repute. In other words, ghosts will not be real to you. But if you believe in ghosts, you will eventually find good evidence, pictures and sources of high repute corroborating your belief.

 

So one should be very careful with one's own beliefs. This is why I always urge people to question everything they believe, because MANY beliefs we have are harmful to our own well-being. In other words, we are our own worst enemy. We often believe things like "I can never succeed" or "I will never be like Lao Tzu" or like "I am too stupid to understand Dao" or like "Ghosts are real, and I have bad luck with them" and so on, and these beliefs can bring significant suffering. This suffering has the nature of a nightmare. It's not real at the ultimate level, but while you are in the grip of the nightmare you believe it's real and it produces real suffering. If in the middle of a nightmare you KNOW you are dreaming and you KNOW it's just a visionary empty experience, it no longer has the power to cause suffering, and in fact, you can even enjoy it.

 

That's how one time there was an entity that grabbed be in my dream and tried to choke me to death. It was strong, it was jumping up and down, and then it jumped together with my body from 2nd story window, slamming me into the ground and choking me in the most violent manner you can imagine. However yours truly knew it was a dream, and I was relaxed and happy, and I was laughing very hard as this vision was progressing. I had absolutely ZERO fear and I was actually enjoying very much being flung back and forth. It was like a carnival ride. Very fun! I woke up very happy and thoroughly well rested and had great mood for the day and a wonderful story to tell. However, if I didn't know I was dreaming, the same dream could become embedded in my mind as a fearful memory and if I dwelt on that memory one too many times, out of fear, it could even re-manifest again and again and keep tormenting me any number of times.

 

This is why if anything attacks me in my dreams I either tear it apart, or I assist in the attack. Like if someone wants to shoot me, I stand closer to the gun and stop moving so that the other guy can get a better shot. If someone wants to cut me in half with a chainsaw, I stand there and press against its teeth. Whatever happens, I am happy and it's all a game in either case. It's important to be able to face these things without resistance. If you can, then resistance becomes a choice and not a necessity, and it becomes playful and not an act of desperation.

 

It can really be fun for some people to believe in ghosts. So I don't want to say "you should never believe in ghosts". However, if you don't like the hassle this creates, you have an option to eliminate ghosts from your life. It's a choice that you should exercise with your eyes open and not just blindly accept it because someone said so and so.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Yes. Unless you dream of people having sex with you or people sexually harrasing you. That is a symtom telling you that you have been attacked or would be attacked by negative spirits or energy. So then you may consider being careful in the coming days. There would also be tips in the dreams of WHO and WHERE and WHAT will attack you soon. But that is of course very hard to learn since it is difference everytime and takes more knowledge to judge.

 

So if I have lucid dreams or dream paralyses and feel warm and/or energized when I wake up it is not a demon that have possesed me?

 

 

I feel sorry for those who really got demon possed at them to hear what you said. It is crucial and you are going very deep in false speech because you are making statement which you never experience this kind of things. Just like a kid telling people he can fly and he have wings. Naive and close minded in your own fantasy. Worthless to talk.

 

the demon will never possess you, no matter how you feel when you wake up.

[三江源]

Yesterday I woke from a wonderful dream in which I was being deeply embraced in a loving way. No demands, no expectations, no speech. Just embraced.

 

Not sexual.

 

If there are demons, does that mean there are also angels?

[Mak_Tin_Si]

You mean just hugging with a loved one?

you feel harrased by the person?

If not, then it shall be fine. If yes, you did have some negative energy around which may cause some bad luck later on in the coming 49days period.

 

No there are no angels.

 

Yesterday I woke from a wonderful dream in which I was being deeply embraced in a loving way. No demands, no expectations, no speech. Just embraced.

 

Not sexual.

 

If there are demons, does that mean there are also angels?

[三江源]

I didnt feel harassed, and it wasnt a loved one that I know in real life, nor an imaginary lover. Just a presence.

 

 

How can it be that there are demons, yet no angels?

 

Are there guardian spirits?

[Mak_Tin_Si]

If so, you are still okay with that. But it is hinting something to you. (sorry I cannot tell you what it is)

 

there are demons, but no angels. On the positive side, opposit of demons are beings above human, so called immortals or gods. Guardian spirits are true, they can be there. We can also call in guardian spirits with FU.

 

I didnt feel harassed, and it wasnt a loved one that I know in real life, nor an imaginary lover. Just a presence.

How can it be that there are demons, yet no angels?

 

Are there guardian spirits?

[三江源]

Thankyou Mak Tin Si.

[Ian]

I didnt feel harassed, and it wasnt a loved one that I know in real life, nor an imaginary lover. Just a presence.

How can it be that there are demons, yet no angels?

 

Are there guardian spirits?

 

 

October 2005. Dirk doing that healing on Karen. Do you remember, he said, casual as anything "there is a very strong angelic presence here"

 

And, well, I wouldn't know an angel if it was on a bed of lettuce strumming a harp. But there was something extraordinary there.

 

It may just come down to vocabulary. But who do you trust?

[Pero]

Yes. Unless you dream of people having sex with you

 

I wish.

[三江源]

 

 

October 2005. Dirk doing that healing on Karen. Do you remember, he said, casual as anything "there is a very strong angelic presence here"

 

And, well, I wouldn't know an angel if it was on a bed of lettuce strumming a harp. But there was something extraordinary there.

 

It may just come down to vocabulary. But who do you trust?

 

I dont recall him saying that, no. I wish I could ask him about it. I trust Dirk of course. He has a pretty angelic presence himself, in fact. I was thinking of him today and how he just made me laugh soooo much.

 

most wondrous.

[Starjumper]

Yesterday I woke from a wonderful dream in which I was being deeply embraced in a loving way. No demands, no expectations, no speech. Just embraced.

 

Not sexual.

 

That's weird, exactly the same thing happened to me yesterday.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Yes. Unless you dream of people having sex with you or people sexually harrasing you. That is a symtom telling you that you have been attacked or would be attacked by negative spirits or energy. So then you may consider being careful in the coming days. There would also be tips in the dreams of WHO and WHERE and WHAT will attack you soon. But that is of course very hard to learn since it is difference everytime and takes more knowledge to judge.

I feel sorry for those who really got demon possed at them to hear what you said. It is crucial and you are going very deep in false speech because you are making statement which you never experience this kind of things. Just like a kid telling people he can fly and he have wings. Naive and close minded in your own fantasy. Worthless to talk.

 

Yes of course, because sex dreams are evil right? they could not possibly be normal! GASP. And having dreams of being attacked? of course, those are evidence of a demon, because your sub-conscious could not possibly formulate a scenerio where you get attacked. All the DMT racing through your brain and the rapid motion of your eyes plus the firings of your sub-conscious and the events of the day could not add up to a sexual dream or a dream in which you are attacked, therefore, blessed be your infalliable wisdom Mak Tin Si, it must be a demon.

 

My own fantasy? You say I am living in a fantasy because I do not think dreams are evidence of demon possession? I think it is you who is living a lie, you satisfy your ego by believing you are something great, something magical and a holder of something esoteric. I don't give a damm what your peasent religion taught you, whose views are based on a time of great ignorance of the workings of the world. Did you recieve your entire education from some Magical Taoist Temple? Just how many demons have you seen? Could it not be you and your followers who mistake natural occurances for something supernatural. Or maybe it is some major psychological failing on your part? Ever consider that? Of course you didn't! That would make you doubt your god-given powers and the close minded teachings you have inherited.

 

I am open to just about anything, but that does not mean I will accept a blind belief of somebody who has so much evidence against them. Prove to me the existence of demons and I will take up your FU gladly.

 

What is next? Taoist televangelism? "FEEL THE LIGHT OF THE TAO! I CAST YOU OUT DEMON" *man shakes violently on stage* *foolish crowd claps* *foolish crowd gives money to the man on stage*

Edited December 6, 2008 by Anabhogya-Carya

[Squatting Monkey]

What is next? Taoist televangelism? "FEEL THE LIGHT OF THE TAO! I CAST YOU OUT DEMON" *man shakes violently on stage* *foolish crowd claps* *foolish crowd gives money to the man on stage*

 

 

He'll have his own late night TV show next !

[Spirit Ape]

Why are you guys against Mak, he hasnt come here saying he is LAMA THUNDERBOLT or Boddhisattva like someone we all know. He is here to share he Daoist sect and information which i doubt we will never get from any other Daoist teacher on this friggin forum. Not one of you are Daoist just all wannabe's you make me sick!

 

Play with your Taiji and pretend to where your Robes like you do!!!!

 

hahahaha

Ape

[Starjumper]

If you absolutely believe there are no ghosts, you will never experience a single ghost -- not even one, and you will never hear a reputable story about one. You might read about one, but it will always be from some source of ill repute. In other words, ghosts will not be real to you. But if you believe in ghosts, you will eventually find good evidence, pictures and sources of high repute corroborating your belief.

 

Wrong!

 

That's how one time there was an entity that grabbed be in my dream and tried to choke me to death. It was strong, it was jumping up and down, and then it jumped together with my body from 2nd story window, slamming me into the ground and choking me in the most violent manner you can imagine. However yours truly knew it was a dream, and I was relaxed and happy, and I was laughing very hard as this vision was progressing. I had absolutely ZERO fear and I was actually enjoying very much being flung back and forth. It was like a carnival ride. Very fun! I woke up very happy and thoroughly well rested and had great mood for the day and a wonderful story to tell. However, if I didn't know I was dreaming, the same dream could become embedded in my mind as a fearful memory and if I dwelt on that memory one too many times, out of fear, it could even re-manifest again and again and keep tormenting me any number of times.

 

This is why if anything attacks me in my dreams I either tear it apart, or I assist in the attack. Like if someone wants to shoot me, I stand closer to the gun and stop moving so that the other guy can get a better shot. If someone wants to cut me in half with a chainsaw, I stand there and press against its teeth.

 

You have dreams like that and you claim to be a spiritual teacher? That is a baaad sign.

 

Another thing, due to the way this forum works I can't find it, but someone posted a nice video of some master doing chi kung and you implied that the chi kung shown was only symbolic. If you think it was symbolism then you don't know much about it

Edited December 5, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

Why are you guys against Mak, he hasnt come here saying he is LAMA THUNDERBOLT or Boddhisattva like someone we all know. He is here to share he Daoist sect and information which i doubt we will never get from any other Daoist teacher on this friggin forum. Not one of you are Daoist just all wannabe's you make me sick!

 

Play with your Taiji and pretend to where your Robes like you do!!!!

 

hahahaha

Ape

 

Hey Apey, I feel the same way you do. I think the non Taoists here consider him to be too superstitious, and he may be, a little. I have found though that I was wrong about ALL the things which I previously thought were superstitious and therefore I am willing to look at the kinds of things he says with an open mind, for they may well be true on some level.

 

I used to raise hell on the Buddhist AOL forum, back when it was the only forum in town, and there were people there who dominated the forum who had rude reactions to anyone who claimed to be a master or who had an enlightenment experience. They chased some very high level masters away, and we were very lucky that one of those masters, who was a Chan and Taoist immortal, came to the AOL Taoism forum, by invitation, people had to be invited because it was a hidden forum due to AOL loosing the link to it =)

[三江源]

 

That's weird, exactly the same thing happened to me yesterday.

 

Does it happen to you often?

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Dreams are very meaningful in Taoism. A good taoist must learn how to communicate with nature and dreams are part of the nature too. So if you do not know how to decode the dreams, you will miss out a lot of tips and fortune telling abilities in nature which will a Taoist shall know. It is also part of the taoism study to know how to decode things in nature too. So it is not superstitious, it is superstitious just when you do not understand the theory behind. But of course that we cannot explain because you need years to study it and learn it.

 

If I told you the theory behind, I am not helping you, I am fooling you and bring you to hell.

[三江源]

I would love to know more about the Taoist approach to dreams.

 

From a psychological point of view, it could be that my dream was an ego compensation dream, that I am in need of feeling loved and accepted and nurtured and not demanded of in any way. So my Higher Self fulfilled my need for me whilst I was asleep. Which would be a good sign.. because ideally one wants a Higher Self that is freely communicating with the ego and in good relationship with it.

 

 

Mak Tin Si, what is hell, exactly?

[Mak_Tin_Si]

I do not want to explain what is hell because there will be another war here if I do. But hell for all of us is some BAD place, so you can say a place that is NOT SO GOOD! haha!

 

Taoist do study dreams and they are all calculated with mathematics system to decode the dreams and what they mean or tells in nature. Of course it takes years of experience to learn this in Taoism and it can always be so challenging to learn because they more you know, the ymore complicated your dreams are and harder they are to decode. So what you are challenging is really the nature to decode dreams. You are trying to unlock the confidential secret in nature which takes lots of effort and time. When you do spend the effort and time, you will achieve what you want and you deserve it. So we cannot pass it out like writting a book, and I do not know how to write it neither. It is an ability, not a dictionary kind of thing. You will get it when you learn it. So please forgive me that I cannot write about this topic much. I really don't know how to write this out.

 

I would love to know more about the Taoist approach to dreams.

 

From a psychological point of view, it could be that my dream was an ego compensation dream, that I am in need of feeling loved and accepted and nurtured and not demanded of in any way. So my Higher Self fulfilled my need for me whilst I was asleep. Which would be a good sign.. because ideally one wants a Higher Self that is freely communicating with the ego and in good relationship with it.

Mak Tin Si, what is hell, exactly?

[Pero]

Why are you guys against Mak, he hasnt come here saying he is LAMA THUNDERBOLT or Boddhisattva like someone we all know. He is here to share he Daoist sect and information which i doubt we will never get from any other Daoist teacher on this friggin forum. Not one of you are Daoist just all wannabe's you make me sick!

 

Play with your Taiji and pretend to where your Robes like you do!!!!

 

hahahaha

Ape

 

This post is killing me.

[JackSquat]

Taken from Sleep Paralysis or Demonic Possession thread:

I have experienced both sleep paralysis and what I consider to be one experience of demon possession.

...

My experience with demon possession was years later, and quite different. I was taking a shower right after waking up, and as I stood there I half dozed off...out of nowhere, I began to see flashes of an alligator crawling towards me, accompanied by threatening bursts of oboe music ( blink.gif ). I examined the threatening aspect of the vision to see why it bothered me.

 

Suddenly, this became images of a naked, adult male figure falling repeatedly backwards into a pond, in which I was floating halfway between the bottom and the surface. I was interested, but otherwise unaffected at this point; it occasionally happens that I have "visions" of some human figure (sometimes male, sometimes female, sometimes a child ) doing some odd thing or other, and I assumed that the figure was my Other (unconscious shadow, more or less) as it often was. This time its body was built like a Greek god, its hair was chin length and shaggy and dark, and its face was vacant. As I paid more attention to it, it turned to look at me. When our eyes met, it occurred to me that the "water" was associated with my consciousness, and that by falling into it and catching my attention it had gained the ability to remain there for the moment. As we looked each other in the eye, I could feel us beginning to meld together...

 

At this point I knew something was amiss. It did not feel right. It felt foreign, malicious, empty, possessive...I don't know how to really describe it but it was not what I expected. I was still standing with my eyes open, and I could move if I made an effort, but I had the distinct feeling of something sharing my body, like I had to overcome the volition of the foreign entity in order to move. It did not have complete control, but I could feel it pushing.

...

I felt drained, a little cold (even in the hot shower), and fragile, and I was shaking a little, but I was myself again and I had a new confidence. The flashes of the alligator came back, crawling away from me in reverse this time, no music, and faded away. It never came back.

 

Can anyone identify this entity as something described in Taoist or other mythology, or otherwise having a name? Has anyone else perhaps had experience with it? I realize it's a shot in the dark, it's just that it occurs to me there may not be a better time or place to try and find out and I could use a little sanity check here since I'm pretty convinced it was an external entity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Apey, I feel the same way you do. I think the non Taoists here consider him to be too superstitious, and he may be, a little. I have found though that I was wrong about ALL the things which I previously thought were superstitious and therefore I am willing to look at the kinds of things he says with an open mind, for they may well be true on some level.

 

I think you nailed it. I think it's just that many people on this forum like to know why they are to believe something, not just what to believe, so any system of belief that is unfamiliar and different is bound to pass through a lot of, shall we say, "scrutiny". Moreover, I expect the teeth of the comb will be finer where the ideas are perceived to be somehow compulsory, superfluous, superstitious, or exclusive of other viewpoints. I wouldn't take it too personally, Mak Tin Si, although it doesn't seem like you are; I don't think there are many people on this forum who can honestly say they don't get chewed out at least every once in awhile . It's natural that conversation get heated every now and then, since after all, some of these questions are literally about life and death.

 

 

 

Peace all