Mawangdui Dao De Jing chapter 40

[lienshan]

fan (ye)

to retire!

zhe dao zhi dong (ye)

that is dao's action!

ruo (ye)

ready to fly!

zhe dao zhi yong (ye)

that is dao's function!

tian xia zhi

heaven sets it to work

wu sheng yu you

matter gives birth to existing

you sheng yu wu

existing gives birth to not existing

[Tao99]

Cleary's translation is clearest for me:

 

Return is the movement of the Way; yielding is the function of the Way.

All things in the world are born of being; being is born of nonbeing.

 

 

However all translations have the last line in the order: things born from you (have/being), you born from wu (none/non-being).

 

You have changed this to things give birth to being. Being gives birth to non-being. Is this your own translation?

Edited December 5, 2008 by Tao99

[Tao99]

Some other translations of Sentence 2 above from ( http://www.wayist.org/ttc%20compared/index.htm ) :

 

Chapter 40 Sentence 2

 

Beck All things in the world come from being, and being comes from non-being.

 

Blackney From What-is all the world of things was born But What-is sprang in turn from What-is-not.

 

Byrn All of creation is born from substance. Substance is born of nothing-ness.

 

Chan All things in the world come from being. And being comes from non-being.

 

Cleary All things in the world are born of being; being is born of nonbeing.

 

Hansen The cosmos and the ten-thousand natural kinds arise from 'existing.' 'Existing' arises from 'non-existing.'

 

LaFargue "The thousands of things in the world are born of Being" Being is born of Nothing.

 

Lindauer The world, the 10000 things give birth in relation to presence Presence gives birth in relation to absence.

 

LinYutan The things of this world come from Being, And Being (comes) from Non-being.

 

Mabry All things in the world are born of existence. Existence is born of non-existence.

 

McDonald The creatures and things of this world come from being. And being from not-yet-being.

 

Mitchell All things are born of being. Being is born of non-being.

 

Muller All things in the cosmos arise from being. Being arises from non-being.

 

Red Pine the things of this world come from something something comes from nothing

 

Ta-Kao All things in the Universe come from existence, And existence from non-existence.

 

Walker The ten thousand things are born of being. Being is born of nothing.

 

Wu All things under heaven are born of the corporeal: The corporeal is born of the Incorporeal.

 

 

Personally I think reversion is closer then return and flexibility is closer then yielding. So I have:

 

Reversion is the movement of the Tao; flexibility is the function of the Tao.

All things in the world come from being; being comes from nonbeing.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Tao99

[lienshan]

I'm exploring the difference between the Guodian text and the Mawangdui Dao De Jing chapter 40.

Robert G. Henricks translates the two versions this way:

 

"Returning" is the way the Way moves;

"Weakness" is the way the Way works.

The things of the world arise from being,

And being comes from non-being.

 

"Reversal" is the movement of the Dao;

"Weakness" is the function of the Dao.

The things of the world originate in being,

And being originates in nonbeing.

 

I think that his two translations are not expressing the few minor but important character changes:

 

fan (ye)

zhe dao dong (ye)

ruo (ye)

zhe dao zhi yong (ye)

tian xia zhi wu

sheng yu you

sheng yu wu

 

fan (ye)

zhe dao zhi dong (ye)

ruo (ye)

zhe dao zhi yong (ye)

tian xia zhi

wu sheng yu you

you sheng yu wu

 

fan (to return) was changed to fan (to retreat). dong was changed from a verb to a noun by inserting a zhi character. This is explained in chapter 1, where the dao that can be daoed is not the constant dao. That'll say dao cannot be "verbalized". But heaven can be "verbalized", which was done by inserting you in the last line, creating a rythmic linebreak after tian xia zhi because zhi as last character makes xia a verb.

 

The philosophy of the Guodian text indicates, that the Dao De Jing (chapter 1) was not yet written

[松永道]

I'm exploring the difference between the Guodian text and the Mawangdui Dao De Jing chapter 40.

Robert G. Henricks translates the two versions this way:

 

"Returning" is the way the Way moves;

"Weakness" is the way the Way works.

The things of the world arise from being,

And being comes from non-being.

 

"Reversal" is the movement of the Dao;

"Weakness" is the function of the Dao.

The things of the world originate in being,

And being originates in nonbeing.

 

There's another way to interpret the first line (the second line in your English versions). It echoes the Christian phrase, "the meek will inherit the earth."

 

弱也者道之用也

 

You could say the Dao uses weakness. You could also say the Dao uses the weak. Weakness is not how the way works, rather it is what the way works through.

 

Chapter 20:

...

Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.

I am a fool.

Oh, yes! I am confused.

Others are clear and bright, But I alone am dim and weak.

Others are sharp and clever, But I alone am dull and stupid.

Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea, Without direction, like the restless wind.

Everyone else is busy, But I alone am aimless and depressed.

I am different.

I am nourished by the great mother.

[lienshan]

Personally I think reversion is closer then return and flexibility is closer then yielding. So I have:

 

Reversion is the movement of the Tao; flexibility is the function of the Tao.

All things in the world come from being; being comes from nonbeing.

You are translating a Heshang Gong and Wang Bi revision of Laozi (zhi is replaced by wan):

 

tian xia wan wu sheng yu you

you sheng yu you

 

The Fu Yi version and The Mawangdui B (and the Guodian text) have:

 

tian xia zhi (air sets it to work) (zhi makes the preceding character a verb)

wu sheng yu you (matter gives birth to existence) (to grow up/to live)

you sheng yu wu (existence gives birth to no existence) (to grow old/to die)

 

http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC40.pdf

 

fan (ye) to retire! (to grow old/to die)

zhe dao zhi dong (ye) that is dao's action!

ruo (ye) ready to fly! (to grow up/to live)

zhe dao zhi yong (ye) that is dao's function!

 

ruo means weak (showing a picture of the wings of a young bird, not yet fully grown out?)

http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/3_ruo4_m3128.htm

 

The Mawangdui chapter 40 is this way answering:

 

to be or not to be

that's the question

 

quote Prince Hamlet of Denmark / William Shakespeare

 

lienshan

[Tao99]

First of all, the big problem is not with your verb difference, but with your last two lines.

 

On DIOs ChiDragon #40 you yourself wrote:

 

 

My translation of "tian xia zhi" treating xia as a verb is something like "heaven declines/descends to", which makes sense with the following "matter comes from to exist, to exist comes from nothing". Lianshan

 

Now you have decided to reverse this. Why do you now deny what you clearly know?

 

ChiDragon has also corrected you:

 

Chinese reverse sentence structure:

you sheng yu wu

Correct logic: not existing gives birth to existing

Incorrect: existing gives birth to not existing

 

Your reply to him ignored this, and you go on about ruo, which you also defined earlier as flexibility in that thread.

You wrote:

fan (ye)

zhe dao zhi dong (ye)

ruo (ye)

zhe dao zhi yong (ye)

 

opposition

it is the change of dao

flexibility

it is the use of dao

 

But your worst mistake is in the last two lines.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Tao99

[Tao99]

Also, I see now that you also agree to fan = to revert. And to retreat can also easily mean to revert. And we know that reversion is the nature of Taoist inner cultivation. Why have you decided to now dummy this down? You wrote on DIO:

 

The Guodian variant 'fan' means to return, to revert or to restore

dong means to change (the position of) in the Guodian chapters 5 and 15

 

'fan' (ye)

to return, to revert or to restore!

zhe dao dong (ye)

that is to change (the position of) dao!

ruo (ye)

flexibility!

zhe dao zhi yong (ye)

that is the use of dao!

Lienshan

 

So putting your own words together, as you yourself have said you understand this in quotes from you:

 

fan (ye)

to return, revert, restore

zhe dao zhi dong (ye)

that is the change of dao!

ruo (ye)

flexibility!

zhe dao zhi yong (ye)

that is the use of dao!

tian xia zhi

heaven sets it to work

wu sheng yu you

matter comes from to exist

you sheng yu wu

to exist comes from nothing

Lienshan

Edited December 6, 2008 by Tao99