crack...

[ron7786]

delete...delete...

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[picnic]

Good post

 

I did smile though at the title "I want to make something clear about Taoism"

[Starjumper]

It is NOT a religion.

 

Your info appears to be a little outdated =)

 

Edit: I just read the rest of the post, I see we agree.

[ron7786]

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[YMWong]

[松永道]

Though we're fundamentally in agreement, I'll play devil's advocate for kicks.

 

Daoism is a religion. Why? Because it has a name. To designate oneself a Daoist is to identify with a definition, a linguistic structure. That's dogma, even if it's an ode to freedom. To even say you're a Daoist is a departure from the fundamental philosophies of Laozi, Zhuangzi, and other philosopher-sages. There is no Daoism nor Daoists separate from religion. However, there are many who cultivate the way without religious ceremony.

 

Ya dig?

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Are you a taoist?

 

Tao Te Ching, the oldest texts of Taoism??? Don't mislead the public please. You may do more research on the study of Taoism and consult more "professionals" in your life to find what is wrong with what you just said in a whole long essay. OLDEST TEXTS?

 

I cannot imagine YMWong as a Zhen Yi student are responding to this post. Wow!

 

Have you heard of the first king of China, Wong Di? Is he BEFORE LAO-ZI???

 

If you say he is not a master in taoism, I suggest you do more research. HIN-YUEN-WONG-DI is the creator of taoism medic's FU call Juk-Yau-Foh, which add on the SUN-NUNG's herbal medic for people who cannot get the herbs for a short period of time. It is then passed on in the royal doctors through out all the dynasties in China for a long time. Famous for curing special decease and mental illness, or rare illness. That is a part of Taoism, they have fu, mantras, scriptures, prayers etc,. Whole set of theories of medic and stuff. You think Wong-Di is old enough for me to tell you Lao-Zi is not the first one in Taoism????

 

Do not just spread this kind of non-sense without doing enough research and pollut the public.Do more research on Taoism first before you talk like those scholars of the western so called taoist "scholars" who sell books about taichi, chi gung, meditation.. man... this is really making people mis-understanding about taoism in a whole. Yet, Taoism is a BIGGGGGG thing, it have lots of stuff in it. Which I can tell you Lao-Zi, Zhuang Zi and Hung Ji etc,. are just BASICS stuff that we learn in the Taoism studies...

 

If you take a look at the Taoism Canon, you find TONs of other stuff like these and you can even find FU, mantras, rituals, and many many more things like these. Lao-Zi also have more than just Tao De Ching. For example, Ching-Jing-Ging, the purity and whatever scripture that I just posted. And the 100 illness, 100 medicine scriptures. The Ching-Jing-Sum-Ging which is another version of Ching-Jing-Ging which have a special way to use and get the FU from it with special training. (You will never know unless you learn from a master who know it) So... I can conclud for 100% SURE, this statement you made is just too naive and misleading for all. How can I agree when you say OLDEST texts are from Lao-Zi.. Just non-sense and very very very very very misleading... You just think HIN-YUEN-Wong-DI, Sun-Nung, Fuk-Hei (the person who invent 8 tangram) are not there.......????? The inventor of BaGwa (fuk hei) is also a contributor of Taoism too, he have his scriptures and mantras passed down. Maybe you haven't get a chance to see them?? or are they just not translated to the west...

 

Please don't be mis-leading.

 

Not agree-ing is not a problem, but misleading and talking like a pro is very polluting for this kind of space. Because you have to really proof what you are talking with more research and experience. It is not convincing and it is non-sense.

 

 

It is NOT a religion. If you read the oldest texts of Taoism, like the Tao Te Ching, Chuang tzu, And Lieh Tze, you will see they are not full of religious ritual and custom. They are contemplative paths for ethical living and peace of mind. If you read the history of Taoism you will also see that Taoism in its original form as written by the famous sages was not religious. The religious aspects of the Tao were added many years later by practitioners of shamanism and the animistic Traditional Chinese Religion of the area. They absorbed Taoism, and later Buddhism into their practices culminating in the still running School of Complete Reality Sect. The other main surviving sect, The Way of Complete Orthodoxy, (Based on the Celestial Masters Sect.) is an older sect that reflects the blending of Taoist philosophy with the Shamanistic faith before Buddhism came to china and was also assimilated.

 

I'm not saying that Chinese magic and traditional religion is not interesting. I find indigenous cultures and old ways like shamanism very interesting. But the Religious Taoism of modern China is not the original Philosophical Taoism of Lao Tze and his contemporaries, and I am getting sick of the arrogance that many religious Taoists seem to project at those of us who are trying to resurrect the original philosophical Tao. They need to study their own history.

 

Can Taoism be mixed with Traditional Chinese Religion? Absolutely. In fact, for the last couple of thousand years it has worked just fine. And it can and probably will continue to work just fine for hundreds of years to come. But is it the original Taoism? No, it isnt. It is a syncretic faith in much the same way as modern Shinto in Japan is a form of original Shinto blended with Buddhism. Is our modern Philosophical Taoism the "original" Taoism? I would say no. I would say that the "original" Taoism, died with the original writers of the classic books of Taoism. Even they had there own forms and ways of perceiving and philosophizing about the ultimate Tao. Just look at some of the differences between Lao Tze and Chuang Tze. One was more involved with society, while one advocated withdrawal from society. However, our Philosophical Taoism is certainly more in line with the philosophical writings of the old sages than the Religious Taoism that cam after with all its rituals, and magic, and ceremonies, and kowtows to heaven.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Ken]

Edited December 7, 2008 by Ken

[ron7786]

Zealots...

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[picnic]

When the shoe fits the foot is forgotten.

 

..

[ron7786]

...

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Tao99]

It is NOT a religion. If you read the oldest texts of Taoism, like the Tao Te Ching, Chuang tzu, And Lieh Tze

 

From Stanford Encyclopedia of Taoism http://www.science.uva.nl/~seop/entries/laozi/ --

 

"The idea of an oral tradition that preceded the writing of the Laozi has gained wide acceptance in recent years."

 

From A Brief History of Taoism by Richard Seymour http://www.taoism.net/supplement/history.htm

 

The most commonly held belief regarding the origin of Taoism holds that Lao Tzu, the author of the Tao Te Ching - the Taoist canon's most well-known work - is its founding father. However, even Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching spoke of the "Tao masters of antiquity." To whom was he referring?

 

Taoism emerged from a rich shamanic tradition that existed in China since the Ice Age [10,000 BC]. These shamans were healers and [religious/supernatural believing] diviners, they had power over the elements, could travel to the sky, converse with animals and had knowledge of the use of plants.

 

One of these shamans, King Fu Hsi, who lived circa 2,800 BCE, was the first to construct a system by which the underlying structure of the universe could be expressed and understood. This system was the forerunner to the tri-grams of the I Ching - the Classic of Change - and an enduring tool of divination.

 

Modern academics generally consider Fu Hsi to be mythical due to the fanciful stories that surround him. However, Taoist tradition has a robust lineage and knowledge is passed down from generation to generation in an unbroken link that spans centuries. These Taoists know that Fu Hsi existed and they recognize the role he played in the formation of Taoism. They are also smart enough to distinguish between historical fact and what is likely to be myth.

 

Recent archaeological finds in China has shed more light on this pre-historic civilization. Jade figures have been unearthed that are consistent with the legend of Fu Hsi and has led some to refer to this period as the Jade Age.

 

There then followed Yu in 2,070 BCE, another shaman. He was charged by his king, Shun, with the responsibility of saving the people from rising flood waters. Many before him had tried and failed, including his own father. Yu, guided, it is said, by an immortal, designed a system of dikes and canals that not only saved the kingdom from disaster but led to its future prosperity.

 

While Fu Hsi had discovered the underlying structure of the universe, Yu revealed its nature of continuous flux. Such was the esteem in which he was held, Yu became king when Shun died.

 

King Wen, who lived from 1100 BCE, took these two systems of divination and produced the sixty-four hexagrams of the modern I Ching.

 

In the coming centuries, the powerful cities led by feudal kings began to compete with each other, swallowing each other up and growing until Ch'in triumphed over its rivals to unite the warring states as China.

 

During this period of war and chaos, the kings, no longer shamans, relied on the wisdom of advisers. These advisers, some motivated by money - others by a genuine belief in the need for a better way - traveled from state to state, offering their services and the benefit of their wisdom.

 

Conclusion

 

Purely philosophical Taoism is the offshoot child of the ancient religious shamans of the Tao, not the other way around. If you don't want to be apart of the communal rituals and specialized practices of religious Taoism, that's understandable. Most everyone in the West are just looking for a philosophical way of life etc. The Tao flows like water to speak to all in all environments. But it's wrong of you to blanket condemn this ancient river of Tao you are drawing from, or to believe that they have nothing interesting and useful in regards to Tao practice, or are not a part of the river of the Tao.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Tao99

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

If you say he is not a master in taoism, I suggest you do more research. HIN-YUEN-WONG-DI is the creator of taoism medic's FU call Juk-Yau-Foh, which add on the SUN-NUNG's herbal medic for people who cannot get the herbs for a short period of time. It is then passed on in the royal doctors through out all the dynasties in China for a long time. Famous for curing special decease and mental illness, or rare illness. That is a part of Taoism, they have fu, mantras, scriptures, prayers etc,. Whole set of theories of medic and stuff. You think Wong-Di is old enough for me to tell you Lao-Zi is not the first one in Taoism????

 

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that Hin-yuen-wong-di may very well be the creator of Fu and Juk-Yau-Foh. But that is not evidence of Taoism prior to any of the core texts. It is evidence of the practice of Fu and etc. which was later incorporated into the tradition of Taoism in its move to a more user friendly, mass practice. An element that was incorporated into Taoism later yet developed earlier is not evidence of Taoism as a tradition prior to Lau Tzu, Chuang Tzu, etc.

 

Yule and Sol invictus were incorporated into Christianity, but Yule and Sol Invictus are not evidence of Christianity prior to Christianity.

[Tao99]

 

Yule and Sol invictus were incorporated into Christianity, but Yule and Sol Invictus are not evidence of Christianity prior to Christianity.

 

In ancient China from the beginning (I Ching) and before, it was always about finding "a better way" or the "Tao". That's what the Shamans were all about. See my above post. What was put in the Tao Teh Ching is this Tao in code that the earlier Shamans he got it from would easily understand, but what non-adepts do not even see. That's not to say that un-iniated philosophers can't get a lot from it as a way of life. But they are missing it's secret transmission that was only revealed orally in various school and sects.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Tao99

[ron7786]

i hate bigotry.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Tao99]

*Sighs* Im not condemning religious Taoism. I am of the opinion that the philosophy of the tao te ching is unique, and not part of the shamanism that came before it. If it were, why arent there any rituals within it? Where are the magic spells and prescriptions for the herbal remedies that the shamans used? Where is the talk of Yu and his technique of dancing the pattern of the stars? The Tao te Ching doesnt even mentions the Trigrams of the Pakua or the I ching of Fu Xi. I have made my case. And if you can prove me wrong I will admit I was wrong. However to admit I am wrong will be my exit from any semblance of Taoism because it is nearly impossible for a foreigner to have access to the religious tradition of it because the "masters" of such sects hoard it like it is an elite club. Plus, in the religious form of taoism, there are so many restrictions and taboo's and other non-sensical superstitions like women not being allowed to participate during there menses that if that is the true tao, I want nothing to do with it and will abandon all of it, because it reminds me of the old testament and the very things that drove me away from Middle eastern "western" religion.

 

That's your choice. But that doesn't mean you can change it's history to fit your wishes. Proven above. What was put in the Tao Teh Ching is this Tao in code that the earlier Shamans he got it from would easily understand, but what non-adepts do not even see. That's not to say that un-iniated philosophers can't get a lot from it as a way of life. But they are missing it's secret transmission that was only revealed orally in various school and sects. The reason it's kept secret is because 7/10 will just laugh and poop on it, and pervert it to their wishes, until it's dead and gone. Something to do with pearls and swine and not casting pearls before swine. Thus they are very careful to pre-qualify students to make sure they have an affinity with it. So it's a good strategy. Your menses case - if true shows it can be misapplied and misused. So you see why. Multiply that by 10,000 and it's soon no longer existing on earth.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Tao99

[Anabhogya-Carya]

In ancient China from the beginning (I Ching) and before, it was always about finding "a better way" or the "Tao". That's what the Shamans were all about. See my above post. What was put in the Tao Teh Ching is this Tao in code that the earlier Shamans he got it from would easily understand, but what non-adepts do not even see. That's not to say that un-iniated philosophers can't get a lot from it as a way of life. But they are missing it's secret transmission that was only revealed orally in various school and sects.

 

Yes, of course it was not a revealed text and it was built on a long tradition, but I was refering specifically to Mak Tin Si saying that Fu before the emergence of the distinct tradition of Taoism is evidence of Taoism. He was saying that Taoism existed before because Fu did and Taoism exists today and it has Fu in it.

[Tao99]

Yes, of course it was not a revealed text and it was built on a long tradition, but I was refering specifically to Mak Tin Si saying that Fu before the emergence of the distinct tradition of Taoism is evidence of Taoism. He was saying that Taoism existed before because Fu did and Taoism exists today and it has Fu in it.

 

Absolutely. I got that. I was referring to Ron's post. Thanks for clarifying though.

[ron7786]

Humans suck and will probably self destruct. good luck with that.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[orb]

[Tao99]

Look at the east. Especially China, Japan, and Thailand. They are become more westernized and more atheistic and "rational" and "scientific" all the time. Religious Taoism has few years left at this point whether or not it is kept secret simply because less and less people are willing to believe in anything. Even here in the west Christianity and Judaism are dieing. Buddhism is being stripped of everything except for the parts about meditation and ethics. The parts that dont agree with science are starting to be dropped off to appeal to the younger generations who dont believe in things they can't directly experience. And sooner or later Buddhism will fall as well because its middle path was only considered a middle path in the past. To a modern person it is as aescetic as the hindu renunciates and jains appeared to buddha in his time. Is tao a philosophy of nature? Or is it a train of thought in the myths and folk practices of a tribal community in early northern china? When we find out for sure, Taoism is either going to sink into obscurity and die like the other religions, or it will be a philosophy of nature that provides ethical advice for centuries to come. And if history is skewed by either side, something very good could be lost forever.

 

Yes, absolutely. I have a 21 year old Chinese friend and she tells me that her generation in China are virtually all turned off by religious Taoism for the exact reasons you give. For these reasons it will for now on probably just be a tiny minority. I can easily understand the turning against what is not scientific and rational being a programmer. But I can't deny alot with certainty, and who's to say others can't find the Tao in ways I don't use? And that is the point of it all, right? But it should be remembered that they are keeping alive a certain essence of it in the midst of it all. And their received scriptures also contain this essence in certain circumstances. So the Tao will never die. And this essence has been translated into English and can be found if one has the courage and heart to do the hard study, searching, and practice, and has an affinity with Tao that allows one to separate the wheat from the shaft.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Tao99

[ron7786]

its all superstitious bullshit.

Edited December 8, 2008 by ron7786

[Starjumper]

Ahem, let me clarify this for everyone. If you think of religion as being like a Western Christian fundamentalist sect (nothing but childish beliefs) then Taoism isn't a religion. However, the definition of Taoist as a religion includes internal alchemy, and when I found this I was flabbergasted to learn I was doin' a religion. In fact one definition of a Taoist priest is someone who has massive quantities of energy going out the top of their head so I guess I'm a Taoist priest too. KIDDING! I was never ordained.

 

I heard that the "church" aspect of Taoism sprang up as a countermove to the Buddhists churches that were being built and attracting the masses with the pretty red colors, and so the Taoist copied them, for the masses. That's a play on words there.

[picnic]

If you think of religion as being like a Western Christian fundamentalist sect (nothing but childish beliefs) then Taoism isn't a religion. However, the definition of Taoist as a religion includes internal alchemy...

That is true that westerners are often in disdain of the term religion due to the religions of the west being see-through, childish, controlling, non-spiritual rubbish. (whos only good is to give some hope to people who don't think or question much). So on that note the term religion is soiled. They then find the Tao and think Wow, this is all good and it is not full of all that religion rubbish. Then they are told it is a religion... Arguments arise, but then eventually we see they only arise out of varying definitions of the word "religion".

 

A similar case arises in India where Hinduism is so all-encompassing that it is said by many to contain buddhism, even christianity and many, if not all other religions. You can and do see debates between Hindus and Buddhists over that and the hindus say for certain that buddhism is just a branch of hinduism, the term Buddha is in hindu texts pre-dating buddhism.

 

It is obvious that Taoism can have many many interpretations. Someone who meditates, does some asanas, reads the TTC can be as much a Taoist as someone who follows a martial art and practices breath control, and someone else who lives in a forest and observes nature.

 

ultimately, it is what gives you happiness, not the label, so ...

 

When the shoe fits the foot is forgotten.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

The color red commonly used in Taoism is not copied from buddhism. It is used because of the need of 5 element. Fire. It also have the ability to keep a place crowded, energetic and happy. But on the other side, red also have a protection purpose. But of course, most places that are not crowded enough cannot use RED as their main color because they are not there yet.

 

 

 

Ahem, let me clarify this for everyone. If you think of religion as being like a Western Christian fundamentalist sect (nothing but childish beliefs) then Taoism isn't a religion. However, the definition of Taoist as a religion includes internal alchemy, and when I found this I was flabbergasted to learn I was doin' a religion. In fact one definition of a Taoist priest is someone who has massive quantities of energy going out the top of their head so I guess I'm a Taoist priest too. KIDDING! I was never ordained.

 

I heard that the "church" aspect of Taoism sprang up as a countermove to the Buddhists churches that were being built and attracting the masses with the pretty red colors, and so the Taoist copied them, for the masses. That's a play on words there.