Shaktipat

[yuanqi]

Never took any classes on Kundalini. I've read a book on it but i've never heard the word Shaktipat? Also could some enlighten me so to speak on the role of an instructor in the Kundalini process?

 

ok, first of all, dont take classes on kundalini. LOL 99.9% of the time they arent what the should be and one doesnt "take classes" on it, even though its offered here in the West.

 

second thing is Shaktipat is a transference of spiritual energy from the master to you, via touch, mantra, distance etc. the best way is through touch from a REAL master. This is an awakening, spiritually, not just making the kundalini capable of rising. this is how it was done since the beginning, from Guru to disciple. only a great few were/are capable of transference when one isnt around. meaning you are someplace else like america and your teacher is in India. LOL what that means is that basically VERY FEW, even though many claim to, here in the West are capable of doing it. they just think they can, this includes doing Shaktipat while you are sitting in front of them, or even using a mantra to give initiation. most, even in India lack the exact technique of the mantra with the right meditation anyway.

 

the important thing to remember regarding Shaktipat is that it is used to awaken the Kundalini and the Guru/Master etc is of utmost importance. The Guru should be authorized from their Guru to do initiation. when i say Guru i dont mean ANYONE (well maybe ONE) here in America that claims to be one, or even a teacher or master etc. I mean the real thing, not someone that took some classes, or studied with someone that made some stuff up or experimented with meditation and started a system (these are quite abundant).

 

The Guru guides the Kundalini to rise the way it is supposed to, the Guru also helps you spiritually and watches over you. If you have real initiation you dont get what is called kundalini sickness/syndrome. there will be things that happen as time goes on yes, but they arent a sickness or mental problems or physical problems. this happens when you dont have the real thing. do you still have to reap the karma you have sowed, yes, does that cause issues sometimes, yes, what do you do? stop meditating cause you got the sickness. LOL, NO! keep meditating and it passes as the karma is burned. but not if you didnt get the real thing. LOL The real Guru has immense power and if one isnt the real deal then you dont get Shaktipat or anything else for that matter. Trust me on this. I laugh out loud everytime i read stuff on sites (including this one) when someone says they are offering it, doing it, they do it often whatever LOL Its a fricken nightmare. But so be it.

 

Let me put this in perspective so you can see how important it is to find a REAL Guru/Master if interested in Shaktipat and also how difficult is truly is to find the real thing. My Guru has authorized ONE person (this person has practiced for 30 plus years under Him) to do initiation. This is a type of Shaktipat Initiation. His Guru over the course of his life authorized TWO people that we know of and thats it. Now the lineage is important to take into consideration here as well. My Guru's Guru was the grandson of Lahiree Mahasaya of Autobiography of a Yogi fame (although much of what Yogananda wrote is not correct, dont get me wrong I love Yogananda but it is in fact the truth) Now my Gurus Gurus father of course was one of two sons of Lahiree Mahasaya and He only authorized one or two do initiation. My Guru is the Chief Disciple of Lahiree Mahasaya's grandson as i said and the grandson had a son named Shibendu but he IS NOT authorized to do initiation and this is known in India and Shibendu does basically the same thing as most here in the west do, he travels around the world doing seminars, using his last name of course and giving "initiation" LOL would hate to have his karma! He started doing this AFTER his father attained Mahasamadhi (this isnt keeling over dead from a heart attack,stroke etc usually. LOL) The reason i bring this up is because my Guru's Guru authorized two people that were capable of giving shaktipat initiation and neither was his OWN son although his son did practice.

 

Hopefully this will clarify things up for you. Regardless of the crap you read on sites etc, if you want the real thing, you have to search it out and if your karma is such that it allows you to have it then go for it. "If the time is ripe you will get initiation even if you are in the Sahara" -Yogiraj Lahriee Mahasaya.

Edited June 11, 2010 by yuanqi

[RiverSnake]

ok, first of all, dont take classes on kundalini. LOL 99.9% of the time they arent what the should be and one doesnt "take classes" on it, even though its offered here in the West.

 

second thing is Shaktipat is a transference of spiritual energy from the master to you, via touch, mantra, distance etc. the best way is through touch from a REAL master. This is an awakening, spiritually, not just making the kundalini capable of rising. this is how it was done since the beginning, from Guru to disciple. only a great few were/are capable of transference when one isnt around. meaning you are someplace else like america and your teacher is in India. LOL what that means is that basically NO ONE, even though some claim to, here in the West are capable of doing it. they just think they can, this includes doing Shaktipat while you are sitting in front of them, or even using a mantra to give initiation. most, even in India lack the exact technique of the mantra with the right meditation anyway.

 

the most important thing to remember regarding Shaktipat is that it is used to awaken the Kundalini and the Guru/Master etc is of utmost importance. The Guru should be authorized from their Guru to do initiation. when i say Guru i dont mean ANYONE (well maybe ONE) here in America that claims to be one, or even a teacher or master etc. I mean the real thing, not someone that took some classes, or studied with someone that made some stuff up or experimented with meditation and started a system (these are quite abundant).

 

The Guru guides the Kundalini to rise the way it is supposed to, the Guru also helps you spiritually and watches over you. If you have real initiation you dont get what is called kundalini sickness/syndrome. there will be things that happen as time goes on yes, but they arent a sickness or mental problems or physical problems. this happens when you dont have the real thing. do you still have to reap the karma you have sowed, yes, does that cause issues sometimes, yes, what do you do? stop meditating cause you got the sickness. LOL, NO! keep meditating and it passes as the karma is burned. but not if you didnt get the real thing. LOL The real Guru has immense power and if one isnt the real deal then you dont get Shaktipat or anything else for that matter. Trust me on this. I laugh out loud everytime i read stuff on sites (including this one) when someone says they are offering it, doing it, they do it often whatever LOL Its a fricken nightmare. But so be it.

 

Let me put this in perspective so you can see how important it is to find a REAL Guru/Master if interested in Shaktipat and also how difficult is truly is to find the real thing. My Guru has authorized ONE person (this person has practiced for 30 plus years under Him) to do initiation. This is a type of Shaktipat Initiation. His Guru over the course of his life authorized TWO people. Now the lineage is important to take into consideration here as well. My Guru's Guru was the grandson of Lahiree Mahasaya of Autobiography of a Yogi fame (although much of what Yogananda wrote is not correct, dont get me wrong I love Yogananda but it is in fact the truth) Now my Gurus Gurus father of course was one of two sons of Lahiree Mahasaya and He only authorized one or two do initiation. My Guru is the Chief Disciple of Lahiree Mahasaya's grandson as i said, his name was Satya Charan Lahiree.Satya had a son named Shibendu but he IS NOT authorized to do initiation and this is known in India and does basically the same thing as most here in the west do, he travels around the world doing seminars, using his last name of course and giving "initiation" LOL would hate to have his karma! The reason i bring this up is because Satya Charan authorized two people that were capable of giving initiation and neither was his OWN son.

 

Hopefully this will clarify things up for you. Regardless of the crap you read on sites etc, if you want the real thing, you have to search it out and if your karma is such that it allows you to have it then go for it. "If the time is ripe you will get initiation even if you are in the Sahara" -Yogiraj Lahriee Mahasaya.

 

Thanks for all the info. Buy "classes" i didn't mean school as in formal education, i meant studying under a proper Kundalini practicioner or guru, which i have not done.

 

-I live in miami and i'm aware of gurus like Santi who live near and have heard nothing but good things. However, in my gut if feel that i should wait (the time and circumstances are not yet ripe yet) and continue my daily meditative and Zhan Zhuang practices.

 

-The only book i've partially read on Kundalini is by John Selby(i've set it down for the present). It appears to be somewhat of an introduction to the topic and was wondering what those who are experienced practicioners feel towards this book.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kundalini-Awakening-Gentle-Activation-Spiritual/dp/0553353306/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

 

-

[yuanqi]

i do not know anything about that book. if you want to know how to get some real books that are not really available here then pm me and i will see if i can get you some copies of things that may interest you. it makes alot more sense after you are practicing our techniques and read them, but i read them beforehand. they do not disclose our techniques so it isnt a book to learn how to do it, as its not taught that way as i mentioned but the TRUTH is in them. Not misinformation, not theory, not speculation but truth from the ones that have attained it thru their own self realization. it parallels the taoist approach in many ways. i studied taoist thought and alchemy for a long long long time. these can help you i am sure gain understanding even if you never approach the path i am on. there is an underlying truth and very similar techniques in many traditions that lead to the same result. the good thing about these books written by the real teachers are they arent full of philosophical bs and metaphors, it is direct, practical information. its like, and i mean this literally, a real taoist "immortal" (God please not immortal again, i am not talking about BS physical immortality here) sitting down and writing their true perceptions gained thru their meditations and internal alchemy techniques.

 

oh by the way, dont go up to swami hariharanadas place in homestead, not the real deal (even if you go to swami yukteswars ashram in Puri and see his pic there on the wall) to get initiation, you might as well go to SRF. LOL the stars were not right for me when i was going to drive there three times over 4 yrs, then i did homework and realized the reason why it never worked out. instead of driving 3.5 hrs i took a 30hr flight to India. LOL

Edited June 10, 2010 by yuanqi

[de_paradise]

Divergent opinions on what is Shaktipat. I view it as "awakening qi" like Ya Mu has stated. Theres quite alot of baloney surrounding many people's views on shaktipat and kundalini. Evolution is right.

[yuanqi]

Divergent opinions on what is Shaktipat. I view it as "awakening qi" like Ya Mu has stated. Theres quite alot of baloney surrounding many people's views on shaktipat and kundalini. Evolution is right.

 

LOL yeah, your right. it is a type of qi awakening. qi = prana, prana and kundalini are linked. its understood when talking about one, you in many ways can be speaking of the other.

 

the baloney and divergent opinions come from ignorance. everyone has an opinion, but some have truth when they speak. what gets under my skin are those that claim to do it knowing they cant. Or worse there are those that think they can and really cant and may charge money for it. all this does is delay the seeker on their own quest. the karma that is reaped by the supposed teacher will be dealt with in one way or another so i guess it doesnt really matter in the long run. LOL Shaktipat does more than wake the Kundalini. It can pierce all knots as well. It can give the disciple Samadhi in some cases. It is only by Grace of the Guru that this happens. It is not understood here in the west as it should be although in India you have some too that offer it and its nothing. Alot do it out of egotism which grants nothing and others charge alot of money for it as well which doesnt do a thing either. LOL You can find what it is supposed to be all over the internet, some are right, some are partially right and some are complete BS. but being right in theory doesnt authorize one to do Shaktipat. My whole point is to show how difficult and important it is to find the real thing if one is interested in Shaktipat, otherwise its a waste of time and money. You cant get true Shaktipat from dabblers, even those that have dabbled for 20 plus years, not even those that have attained a little something after decades of practice. Its like me going out and offering Shaktipat and initiations just because i have a REAL Guru and i practice. dont work that way....

Edited June 10, 2010 by yuanqi

[yuanqi]

nevermind......

Edited June 10, 2010 by yuanqi

[ShaktiMama]

I would like to offer that Shaktipat is not the province of only the mother land of India to whom we owe a great debt.

 

Shaktipat and Kundalini are Sanskrit words that decribe a process that is a cross cultural world wide phenomenon and appears in most major spiritual traditions for many millenia. No one culture has a lock or ownership on this cosmic, universal energy that has many names including Kundalini Shakti. Each culture has its own lens to view and experience this energy. Each particular lens manifests both benefits and blindspots germaine to the culture that created the lens. From looking through that lens a system of beliefs and practices grows around the energy. It is still one facet of the energy. Some have a clearer or less distorted lens than other cultures. Some cultures have a tiny pinpoint partial view but the window is still there.

 

We can benefit and learn from other different traditions. For different reasons we may be attracted to one system over another. The system we are most comfortable with is the one...well, we are most comfortable with...so we tend to think that is the best, mother approved way. That is only a natural human response.

 

I recommend this book to give insight on what other cultures and experiences of this universal energy have found and practice.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bushman-Shaman-Awakening-through-Ecstatic/dp/0892816988

 

blessings,

s

[Sahaj Nath]

I would like to offer that Shaktipat is not the province of only the mother land of India to whom we owe a great debt.

 

Shaktipat and Kundalini are Sanskrit words that decribe a process that is a cross cultural world wide phenomenon and appears in most major spiritual traditions for many millenia. No one culture has a lock or ownership on this cosmic, universal energy that has many names including Kundalini Shakti. Each culture has its own lens to view and experience this energy. Each particular lens manifests both benefits and blindspots germaine to the culture that created the lens. From looking through that lens a system of beliefs and practices grows around the energy. It is still one facet of the energy. Some have a clearer or less distorted lens than other cultures. Some cultures have a tiny pinpoint partial view but the window is still there.

 

We can benefit and learn from other different traditions. For different reasons we may be attracted to one system over another. The system we are most comfortable with is the one...well, we are most comfortable with...so we tend to think that is the best, mother approved way. That is only a natural human response.

 

I recommend this book to give insight on what other cultures and experiences of this universal energy have found and practice.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bushman-Shaman-Awakening-through-Ecstatic/dp/0892816988

 

blessings,

s

 

 

Indeed. you saved me some writing, and you have a softer touch than i do, so right on.

 

kundalini (like neidan) is a natural process for which the body is designed. it is not and has never been the sole domain of any tradition. devotion and commitment to a specific path is a beautiful and important thing, but no tradition has a monopoly on nature. that's why i so love the west. for all of our faults we are so apt to take information 50 different places, cross-reference it, strip it of its cultural/traditional trappings, and distill the truth of it (usually this is minus the rules that were set up to preserve the tradition). we obviously have our issues in a thousand other regards, (LOL) but this is one area in which i think we excel. generally speaking.

[yuanqi]

beautifully put. and you are both correct. no one tradition has a monopoloy on it. for that matter as i have stated many times in the past, there is a link between them all, everything comes from the same source anyway. different cultures have different ideas and practices. i have practiced several methods from different cultures in my lifetime. there is an underlying truth that is similiar in all.howeverwhen someone uses the term kundalini, shaktipat and teacher in questions then it reverts to what is generally thought of as being from India and their spiritual traditions, but i do agree philosophically these words can take on other meanings depending on what one practices. to answer his question precisely and in the regard that was laid out was my intention.as far as shaktipat goes from an indian viewpoint it is supposed to be done by those worthy and with a direct relationship with the disciple. this is the context of which i am speaking and having it done authentically is difficult to find. its not at the local seminar held by someone that practices a multitude of different(or single) methods and given in the correct way under the term shaktipat. if someone is going to ask a question using these terms then they also need to understand that the authentic way to have it done is quite difficult to find and to be wary of those that claim to. many "teachers" here in the west will disagree and thats fine as if everyone else was saying that then they would be losing alot of money that is normally charged for it. even if they do it for free they dont want to hear the truth because it is them of whom i am speaking.

Edited June 10, 2010 by yuanqi

[Kameel]

Interesting juxtapositon...fundamentalist shaktipat.

 

Keep your shoulders wide and strong, because that's a heavy cross to bear.

[yuanqi]

Interesting juxtapositon...fundamentalist shaktipat.

 

Keep your shoulders wide and strong, because that's a heavy cross to bear.

 

Luckily i dont have to bear it. LOL its not really my concern since i am not arrogant enough to think i can provide Shaktipat to others. but i do feel that others should be informed, i mean hell, it isnt just opinion, its the actual truth LOL i am sure there are many people here in america that would disagree since we are all caught up in our way of doing things. I mean we make stuff up, steal techniques from books we read and practice from and the hallucinations we have during meditation we call a new technique and provide it to others. LOL. i wont go name a bunch of names but they are a dime a dozen across the country and beyond. i just stick to what has worked for millenia and thats hard enough to find in its own right. someone had mentioned that we from the west distill the information and cross reference it and take the truth, when in reality we and our giant egos take it and modify it and add to it cause we know best and our truth is always right. LOL as a culture we havent been around long enough to know anything. ego in action. we probably have the most abundant and youngest teachers, masters and instructors in the world here. LOL

Edited June 10, 2010 by yuanqi

[Kameel]

Well then,

Keep fighting the good fight,

until you realize the only battle is

you.

Peace

[voidisyinyang]

http://online.wsj.com/video/some-africans-are-betting-on-world-cup-witchcraft/C9F78F29-C3B0-4E14-ADC1-69E1A8B2316B.html

 

Here's some serious Shaktipat.

Edited June 10, 2010 by drewhempel

[yuanqi]

Well then,

Keep fighting the good fight,

until you realize the only battle is

you.

Peace

 

nice point. i wonder sometimes why i even care if others are getting misled and misguided. then i realize that i still have work to do and shouldnt care. my Guru cares to some extent but then He also realizes that if the persons time isnt ripe to understand and receive truth then its just the way it is, they wont find Him or anyone else worthy until then...karma i suppose. so at this point i am done with it.....

[Seth Ananda]

 

 

second thing is Shaktipat is a transference of spiritual energy from the master to you, via touch, mantra, distance etc. the best way is through touch from a REAL master. This is an awakening, spiritually, not just making the kundalini capable of rising. this is how it was done since the beginning, from Guru to disciple. only a great few were/are capable of transference when one isnt around. meaning you are someplace else like america and your teacher is in India. LOL what that means is that basically NO ONE, even though some claim to, here in the West are capable of doing it. they just think they can, this includes doing Shaktipat while you are sitting in front of them, or even using a mantra to give initiation. most, even in India lack the exact technique of the mantra with the right meditation anyway.

 

the important thing to remember regarding Shaktipat is that it is used to awaken the Kundalini and the Guru/Master etc is of utmost importance.

 

Hi Yuanqi, I am not sure If you should be as certain as you are on this subject. I think the details of your statements are mostly right, but how do you know which teachers have the proper Authorisation? My teacher was authorised by Swami Muktananda, (he has the papers...) and I was authorised by him.

Different traditions probably have different teachings around the subject.

The Siddha lineage which is a shaktipat tradition, (from what I know) would say that the Kriya Tradition is not a Shaktipat tradition - not in a denigrating my tradition is better than yours way - Just that Kriya teachers don't give it out nearly as often as the Siddha lineage which gives it out amply and empowers students to also give it out.

I personally love both Traditions.

Other Schools may say very different things again.

My tradition does say that After Muktananda, Shaktipat became a Big Popular thing and thus many schools (that did not previously) began offering Shaktipat without having a tradition of it.

I Personally do not have a problem with this. In my experience with Shaktipat which uses Mantra and Guru worship, the Energy still ultimately comes From Shakti herself, and I think as long as you love and are on Good terms with Shakti, Shaktipat will happen.

 

So to wrap my point up, How can you be sure who is Authorised with out asking them?

If some one wants it traditional they have a right to ask, but How can we be sure that someone who isnt authorised Isn't giving awesome Shaktipat? Maybe better than someone who is even?

 

Peace and Blessings!

[yuanqi]

Hi Yuanqi, I am not sure If you should be as certain as you are on this subject. I think the details of your statements are mostly right, but how do you know which teachers have the proper Authorisation? My teacher was authorised by Swami Muktananda, (he has the papers...) and I was authorised by him.

Different traditions probably have different teachings around the subject.

The Siddha lineage which is a shaktipat tradition, (from what I know) would say that the Kriya Tradition is not a Shaktipat tradition - not in a denigrating my tradition is better than yours way - Just that Kriya teachers don't give it out nearly as often as the Siddha lineage which gives it out amply and empowers students to also give it out.

I personally love both Traditions.

Other Schools may say very different things again.

My tradition does say that After Muktananda, Shaktipat became a Big Popular thing and thus many schools (that did not previously) began offering Shaktipat without having a tradition of it.

I Personally do not have a problem with this. In my experience with Shaktipat which uses Mantra and Guru worship, the Energy still ultimately comes From Shakti herself, and I think as long as you love and are on Good terms with Shakti, Shaktipat will happen.

 

So to wrap my point up, How can you be sure who is Authorised with out asking them?

If some one wants it traditional they have a right to ask, but How can we be sure that someone who isnt authorised Isn't giving awesome Shaktipat? Maybe better than someone who is even?

 

Peace and Blessings!

hey Seth, yeah my sentences were running together up there, i was thinking distance shaktipat here in the usa and those offering it in particular. if i wasnt practicing what i do then i would be practicing Siddha for sure.

 

in the traditional and real Kriya lineages it is known who is authorized as they keep it recorded. as far as others go, there are different types of shaktipat and people that are authorized to do so. i was particularly speaking about those here that do mantra, distance, over the phone etc or in a weekend seminar with some type of system they came up with themselves, alhtough there are others out there that come from a traditional lineage and do shaktipat and maybe they are authorized but they are by someone that wasnt authorized to give it. LOL this happens all the time and was my point. just be wary.

 

as far as the modernized and expanded versions of Kriya available here such as SRF among others, they may or may not give shaktipat, for that matter they dont practice the authentic techniques since Yogananda modified them and you dont generally even have a real Guru to teach you and ask questions. in the traditional methods of initiation in Kriya, shaktipat is a KEY ingredient and has been given that way since Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya reintroduced it in the 1800's. True Kriya can be considered a mixture of Laya, Raja and Bhakti Yoga and the Guru disciple relationship is as important as it is in other lineages.some say that it is a more highly advanced version of these and also karma yoga.

 

as for the last questions you asked. in the traditional lineages that give the real thing, it is not even a question about getting shaktipat from a non authorized person as it wouldnt be considered and if you have a real Guru then how could that other person power match His/Hers as if it did then that person would generally be authorized. things are much more traditional in India and are taken quite seriously and i feel that if you are going to take on responsibility then you should be traditional and follow the way its been done since the beginning as this is what is proven to work.

 

You are right, you dont know til you ask, and you should ask which is another point entirely. homework can provide the answer as to whether that person has authorization to perform shaktipat, if you do enough research and are serious then you will find the answers. as for people that maybe able to do transmissions of sorts, is it really shaktipat? in my opinion they shouldnt call it that unless they can and are allowed to do it and follow the traditional paths. otherwise call it something else.

Edited June 11, 2010 by yuanqi

[de_paradise]

Yuanqi has made some very good points.

 

We in the west have hijacked the term shaktipat from a limited traditional meaning out of the Indian systems and broadened it to fit virtually any energy transfer with the intent to start and awakening process. Just like the term Kundalini and chakra, it has become the most common way to communicate these ideas, but has deviated and become vague. If I were a high level guru of a verifiable lineage, I would be a bit miffed at westerners using these important terms in such off-hand ways.

 

I'd like to add that there are different ways to admister the Shaktipat energy, and by the looks of things, the Indian tradition has their specific ways to maximize the result. The basic way is just through intent, sending a shower of energy into anothers's energy gates. This is certainly not the strongest way. Sending the energy down to certain areas, the sacrum, the dantien, the spine, has probably its own science, evolved through millenia. No doubt the Indians have very efficient and closesly guarded methods, far beyond sending some qi by intent, by stimulation of this and that area in specific ways. I remember during a seminar Max of Kunlun demonstrated an Egyptian way of awakening the Kundalini that was truly interesting, and the technique totally different from what I have ever seen. But in order to replicate that, you would have yourself to evolve that ability (siddhi) as well as have the instructions.

 

So in the final analysis, we are not so far apart.

[C T]

 

You are right, you dont know til you ask, and you should ask which is another point entirely. homework can provide the answer as to whether that person has authorization to perform shaktipat, if you do enough research and are serious then you will find the answers. as for people that maybe able to do transmissions of sorts, is it really shaktipat? in my opinion they shouldnt call it that unless they can and are allowed to do it and follow the traditional paths. otherwise call it something else.

Well said. ...."call it something else" - but these so-called transmitters won't, will they? Just imagine the implications if they did. It would simply create avoidable situations whereby they will be subject to spending all their energies just trying to pacify and quell all the doubting Thomases and Theresas. Its way easier to be jumping on to a platform with traditional hallmarks (has to have exotic Asian/Indian flavors of course) which starts them making money the quick and easy way!

 

"What do you do?" I give Shaktipat/or send Qi Balls by Skype!! ($129.99 per dozen?). "Oh cool! I heard about that before - when can you fit me in? Thursday @ noon? Excellent!" as opposed to, say, "What do you do?" I offer you my system, called Bob's Energy Transference In A Zip aka the BETiaZ system! "Oh? What in heaven's name is THAT?" (umm...uh oh, another quacky who feels like playing God... thinks to self quietly).

 

The situation is completely beyond salvation, Yuanqi. But as you know, it is the age of Kali yuga, so these are all signs towards the fulfillment of the prophecies of the sages of old....

 

Don't beat yourself up too hard over it. Like everything else, the cycle has to complete itself. No back-tracking once the wheel has begun turning.

[markern]

someone had mentioned that we from the west distill the information and cross reference it and take the truth, when in reality we and our giant egos take it and modify it and add to it cause we know best and our truth is always right. LOL as a culture we havent been around long enough to know anything. ego in action. we probably have the most abundant and youngest teachers, masters and instructors in the world here. LOL

 

 

With regards to VIpassana it is already, to quite an extent the case that teh open discussion of teachings between westerners HAS improved upon the teachings. Daniel Ingrams map of the stages of Vipassana is, acording to those who have practiced it for years in the east and in the west and read and learnt about different maps, the best and most precise map so far. Furthermore, it is being imporved upon by the open disucssions about experiences with the different stages at the dahramoverground, by people like thusness and other "open discussion" practioners that have set up blogs etc. THe same holds true for subtleties in the techniques used for VIpassana and Jhana attainment. Remember that a lot of those people have studied with several teachers in the east and can give adequate comparisons of the usefullness of the teachings. I am sure there are plenty teachers of Vipassana in the east that in many ways are better than Ingram but he does have the best map. In 20 years time this work will have reached a much much more refined stage and not only will the west have the best teachings of Vipassana but it will have detailed documentation of how the various strategies work as exsperienced by large numbers of people. If easterners do not particiapte in that work but keep on doing the same they will lag behind.

 

I will give you another example. I read a book about attaining Jhana that had interviews with sevreal eastern and western teachers. The pattern was that the eastern teachers had studied under only one or a few teachers and they were, for the most part extreemely confident that the exact way they taught Jhana was the only or the the best way of attaining it. THe eastern teachers did not at all agree on the ways of attaining jHana. THe western teachers had largely studied with several eastern and several western teachers and likely had discussed techniques with many others who had a similarily wide background. THe western teachers in general were much more open to the fact that Jhana could be attained in several different ways and no particualr technique needed to be best in all cases. Despite this they absolutely had opinions about techniques that were better than others but this was of course based on a much broader actual experience with different techniques a much, much wider knowledge of how other people had attained Jhana with different strategies. THe result seems to be a combination of a braoder approach that has a hgiher likelyhood of finding the right technique for each person and of finding those particualr technique that work best for most. If the east keeps doing what it has done it will not attain this and lag behind. THis is not to say that western vipassana teachers are yet better thatn asians as there are so many more vipassana teachers in the east and with more experience it is only natural that you will still find better ones there. But I am convinced that this strategy leads to a hgiher percentage of good teachers and a hgiher ability for students to orient themselves in the field and find the best techniques for themselves. In the future when you have more westerners with long experience with VIpassana this width of experience and open discussion will lead to the best teachers of vipassana being found in the west. THat is unless the east changes its ways and I believe it will.

 

THe same strategies for imporvement of teachings could just as well be applied to energetic paths. I can`t see any reason why Kan and LI meditations or kundalini meditations can`t be discussed with the same level of detail by a large number of practioners and be improved upon in an emperical way. IN all other field these types of learning strategies outcompete just doing it as one did it before.

 

If it is in did the case that it is almost hopeless to find a real master in taoism and also maybe in yoga then there is obviously something wrong with the way things are being done. Large amounts of great teachings have also been lost and this will certainly be the case time and time again if things do not start to be discussed openly. If they are discssed in this way they will forever be saved and every time someone invents soemthing new it will go into our catalogue of teachniqes. Imagine having ALL the Egyptian teachings througout all time, ALl the CHineese teachings and ALL the Indian, Jewish, native american, western magick teachings and so on.

 

It is also important to remember that these teachings have treavlled across boardes and been exchanged and mixed througout history and this is an important reason that what exists today is at the level it is and not something much less.

 

Another interesting point is that acording to the book reenchantment (about tibetan budhism and the west), several of the tibetan lamas when they started teaching westerners saw it a an oportunity to figure what was the actual essence of the teachings and what was just himalayan dogma as they said. When they were confronted with fresh eyes that did not have the same cultural refrences it was much easier to figure out what needed to be there and what was just there because someone had just said so. This is the reason why many muslims so apreaciate talking to converts from other cultures. they feel that the converts often have a beeter ability to see what is the real teachings and what is just their culutrual traditions mixed in.

[C T]

Interesting post Markern.

 

Looking at what you said with Eastern eyes, i would say the East will never (want to) catch up with the West. Let me try to offer this view for your consideration: True spiritual paths, from the Eastern perspective, is about distillation, to always get the cream of the crop, so to speak. Just this as an example: A master oversees a monastery of 300 monks and lay practitioners. Out of these 300, some will drop out gradually, due to various reasons. Maybe some of these drop-outs were only there in transition, or were homeless, or out of plain hunger and destitution. It happens. Then the numbers shrink. Out of those that remain, maybe a dozen or so are really genuinely sincere about their desire to cultivate and/or serve the community as a monk. The rest are simply going thru the motions, occupying space. And out of this dozen or so, the master might eventually select only one or two to impart the 'higher' and 'deeper' teachings. Or he might see none among the group capable of absorbing and assimilating the deeper levels of the teachings. Then he picks none, and waits for the next batch of novices. He is never in a hurry to transmit. For him, numbers are insignificant, and for this, the lineage is carefully safeguarded and preserved. Its not about selfish intentions - more than likely, this is done out of compassion for the potential receivers of the secret teachings, for if they were not ready to receive, somewhere down the line, detrimental effects could result. These detrimental outcomes are now quite evident in the West. I'm guessing one of the chief reasons is that there is such a lack of emphasis on distillation, and also the vitalness of having enough patience to get proper grounding in the preliminaries.

 

This is the way its always been done in the East. Maybe its counter-progressive in the eyes of Western spiritual aspirants, who, as we all know, do underperform in the 'patience' department, and who, generally speaking, want things to happen fairly fast, or they either lose interest, or abandon ship to seek some other 'quicker' paths or more impressive masters. Such an approach has never been advocated in the East, nor do i believe it ever will. It has never been the trend there for seekers of true paths to find masters who have the WOW factor - in fact, such 'masters' are often brushed aside as childish performers out to ply their wares to the gullible Western seekers. Its ironical isn't it?

 

I don't think this is a failure or a kind of regression. Spirituality is not technology. It is a painstaking process that involves years of devotional fortitude to a particular master and lineage. Its about sifting through layer upon layer of habitual tendencies and ingrained views that demand to be overturned, shaken out and new insights reintegrated into the mindstream. In the East, there are no Drive-thru, instant satisfaction kind of spirituality to cater for those who are truly serious. There are of course those 'gurus' coming from the East who would promote otherwise, but in the eyes of their more mature, honest Eastern contemporaries, these guys are nothing but side-show operators out to make a fast buck or two. Oh well, it does take two to tango, i guess...

Edited June 11, 2010 by CowTao

[3bob]

Interesting post Markern.

 

Looking at what you said with Eastern eyes, i would say the East will never (want to) catch up with the West. Let me try to offer this view for your consideration: True spiritual paths, from the Eastern perspective, is about distillation, to always get the cream of the crop, so to speak. Just this as an example: A master oversees a monastery of 300 monks and lay practitioners. Out of these 300, some will drop out gradually, due to various reasons. Maybe some of these drop-outs were only there in transition, or were homeless, or out of plain hunger and destitution. It happens. Then the numbers shrink. Out of those that remain, maybe a dozen or so are really genuinely sincere about their desire to cultivate and/or serve the community as a monk. The rest are simply going thru the motions, occupying space. And out of this dozen or so, the master might eventually select only one or two to impart the 'higher' and 'deeper' teachings. Or he might see none among the group capable of absorbing and assimilating the deeper levels of the teachings. Then he picks none, and waits for the next batch of novices. He is never in a hurry to transmit. For him, numbers are insignificant, and for this, the lineage is carefully safeguarded and preserved. Its not about selfish intentions - more than likely, this is done out of compassion for the potential receivers of the secret teachings, for if they were not ready to receive, somewhere down the line, detrimental effects could result. These detrimental outcomes are now quite evident in the West. I'm guessing one of the chief reasons is that there is such a lack of emphasis on distillation, and also the vitalness of having enough patience to get proper grounding in the preliminaries.

 

This is the way its always been done in the East. Maybe its counter-progressive in the eyes of Western spiritual aspirants, who, as we all know, do underperform in the 'patience' department, and who, generally speaking, want things to happen fairly fast, or they either lose interest, or abandon ship to seek some other 'quicker' paths or more impressive masters. Such an approach has never been advocated in the East, nor do i believe it ever will. It has never been the trend there for seekers of true paths to find masters who have the WOW factor - in fact, such 'masters' are often brushed aside as childish performers out to ply their wares to the gullible Western seekers. Its ironical isn't it?

 

I don't think this is a failure or a kind of regression. Spirituality is not technology. It is a painstaking process that involves years of devotional fortitude to a particular master and lineage. Its about sifting through layer upon layer of habitual tendencies and ingrained views that demand to be overturned, shaken out and new insights reintegrated into the mindstream. In the East, there are no Drive-thru, instant satisfaction kind of spirituality to cater for those who are truly serious. There are of course those 'gurus' coming from the East who would promote otherwise, but in the eyes of their more mature, honest Eastern contemporaries, these guys are nothing but side-show operators out to make a fast buck or two. Oh well, it does take two to tango, i guess...

 

My view is that the great Master does nothing except maintain what has been established... that is in the sense that the Spirit does everything through them while they, with the help of Spirit maintain, change, and or improve the particular matrix or lineage for Spirit's work to be done that they are part of. Thus the Spirit really chooses the students and the levels of revelation that they will be exposed to and schooled in. Also, there really are no secrets except what could be called the secrets of twistable mind powers, which are nothing compared to the wisdom, love and power of Spirit and it's all consuming Truth, which are always in plain sight hidden very deeply right under our noses, thus often being passed up for more colorful karmic complications.

 

Om

Edited June 11, 2010 by 3bob

[suninmyeyes]

I dont know much about Shaktipat,but like the idea of everything mixing up and fusing together ,flowing and changing shape.

Even the white race will die out maybe in near future,i wonder who is going to be Westerners then?I wonder how it will (whats written in above discussions)sound written in future?

[Seth Ananda]

as for people that maybe able to do transmissions of sorts, is it really shaktipat? in my opinion they shouldnt call it that unless they can and are allowed to do it and follow the traditional paths. otherwise call it something else.

Nicely put...

[Vajrasattva]

AUMM! God Bless!

 

no problems, and for the Record I think Santi's a Legend for Doing the work he is Doing.

 

Thank you

[Vajrasattva]

Greetings friends,

 

You know what? I have studied with Chinese Chi kung Masters, Tibetan Lamas, Hindu Yogis, Vedic teachers, "western" occultists, Sufi Masters and the bottom line is that what I do, Tao semko does, and what Susan Carlson does and what my teacher Glenn Morris did is all respected by these particular teachers and it is also in some form or another with in each of their systems. I like to call it "Shakti" cause i have a deep resonance for the Divine Feminine and her power and its what my actual guru called it. And if anyone knew him or received shakti from him they would know exactly why he called it shakti.

 

Now KUNDALINI awakening and "phenomenon" is something that is a BIOLOGICAL PROCESS as well as a spiritual one and replicable by certain steps or "yogas" or practices. It is found in many cultures and spiritual practices all over the globe. And if one can see in to the more subtle realms and planes of existence you will find that its also there.

 

regardless of what you do, if you want to learn more about Kundalini and you want to experience a real spiritual awakening in your life now, i highly recommend you contact a qualified teacher like me, or Tao Semko,or susan carlson to learn actual methods that work.

 

 

Thank you. Keep meditating and finding more bliss in your life.

 

Peace & God Bless

Santiago Dobles