Shaktipat

[ShaktiMama]

This is exactly what the Buddha said does not lead to liberation from Samsara, but just higher rebirth and finally re-absorption into the formless in order to be recycled again ignorantly.

 

What you have described is called Monist Eternalism, or Monism. This is different from what the Buddha teaches and is not considered the truth that leads to liberation, only the truth that leads to more recycling. What you describe is a lofty state, but it's considered a mis-cognition and mis-interpretation of the nature of things if considered an ultimate truth in and of itself. It is merely a relative truth originated upon an identification with a formless state of samadhi.

 

What ever it is you have you have direct experience of what ever it is. Your energy runs deep, cool, and soothing. It feels anchored, expansive, and smooth, like Shiva consciousness.

 

You obviously know what you are talking about not just from reading in books or parroting a guru.

 

Thanks for that little bit of darshan.

 

Much gratitude,

Susan

[Edward M]

Vaj, what did buddha mean as the unborn, the unoriginated, the uncreated, the deathless, in your opinion?

 

honest question not trying to stir anything up

 

peace

[yuanqi]

They do not, as the place you end up originates dependent upon view, and if the view is not that of "right view", then it does not lead to true liberation according to Buddhahood. Your view is an all absorbing dogma without getting the particulars. Buddha view is much more refined. Thus is the experience and the knowledge of the nature of things much subtler.

 

These ideas you have of the Dalai Lama are off the mark. Have you actually read what he teaches?

 

 

 

 

In Buddha cosmology there is no underlying reality that exists from it's own side. This interpretation of meditative experience considered real because it seems is without thought, is a deeply subtle tendency to cling to a self, just made infinite and formless. This is not the teaching of the Buddha and misses the point of dependent origination which subverts any monist translations of cosmic experience... read...Pratityasamutpada - inter-dependent origination

 

Here is one quote from this link "Madhyamaka and Pratityasamutpada

 

See also: Mūlamadhyamakakārikā

Though the formulations above appear might seem to imply that pratityasamutpada is a straightforward causal model, in the hands of the Madhyamaka school, pratityasamutpada is used to demonstrate the very lack of inherent causality, in a manner that appears somewhat similar to the ideas of David Hume. Many scholars have agreed that the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā is one of the earliest interpretations of Buddha's teaching on paramartha originated from Pratītyasamutpāda [18][clarification needed] , [19][clarification needed].

The conclusion of the Madhyamikas is that causation, like being, must be regarded as a merely conventional truth (saṃvṛti), and that to take it as really (or essentially) existing would be both a logical error and a perceptual one, arising from ignorance and a lack of spiritual insight.

According to the analysis of Nāgārjuna, the most prominent Madhyamika, true causality depends upon the intrinsic existence of the elements of the causal process (causes and effects), which would violate the principle of anatman, but pratītyasamutpāda does not imply that the apparent participants in arising are essentially real.

Because of the interdependence of causes and effects (because a cause depends on its effect to be a cause, as effect depends on cause to be an effect), it is quite meaningless to talk about them as existing separately. However, the strict identity of cause and effect is also refuted, since if the effect were the cause, the process of origination could not have occurred. Thus both monistic (Brahma Yoga) and dualistic (most other theisms) accounts of causation are rejected.

Therefore Nāgārjuna explains that the śūnyatā (or emptiness) of causality is demonstrated by the interdependence of cause and effect, and likewise that the interdependence (pratītyasamutpāda) of causality itself is demonstrated by its anatta.

In his Entry to the middle way, Candrakirti asserts, "If a cause produces its requisite effect, then, on that very account, it is a cause. If no effect is produced, then, in the absence of that, the cause does not exist."

 

So as you can see, your teacher is wrong about what he thinks the Buddha taught.

 

 

 

 

According to Buddha teaching both Nirvana and Nirvikalpa Samadhi is merely a pit stop. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a formless state that leads to formless absorption, even after death. Read the 31 planes and the explanation of the Jhanas.

 

 

 

This is only considered as such if you are a Hindu, or mystical theist. Buddha saw that there was no ultimate Self. He said that taking refuge in a formless self as ultimate would only lead to re-absorption at the end of the cosmic eon, so this does not constitute liberation according to Buddhadharma. You and all your gods get reabsorbed into this infinite, formless concept of Brahman at the end of this karmic manifestation of form into the potentiality for the next cosmic eon. This subtle attachment to a blissful formless light as a Self of all is a deeply subtle tendency of the ego. The Buddhas bliss is subtler and the realization is subtler.

 

 

 

This is a common Hindu dogma. According to Buddhism, there is not a one that all things come from, that potentiality which springs this cosmos is just the concepts that are left over from the previous cosmos. Actually all sorts of universes are going on and when a group of mass of sentient beings agree on a single entity as the entity of all, and their karmas align, so does the end of their manifest karmas end at the same time and they are all at the same time re-absorbed into their formless samadhi to be ignorantly re-expressed when the conditions are right. Read Buddhist cosmology for more detailed explanation. Being introduced to a new interpretation may open up new vistas of meditative experience, which is more conditioned by your view than you are aware of right now. Myriad Worlds is a good one.

 

 

 

Actually no. I understand your understanding quite deeply, as I also interpreted my deep meditative experiences through the view that you have. I was raised Hindu my entire life with Advaita Vedanta and Shaivism as the path I practiced very earnestly. My experience of Shaktipat at 14 was that of the formless state of samadhi, beyond time and form, but fully conscious on a deeply peaceful level. When I came out of this timeless space, I saw and felt connected to everyone and experienced everyones greatness beyond their masks. But, this is just an expansive state of consciousness known of in the formless samadhi and explained by the Muni. It is good to cultivate, but not to take up as an ultimate Self of all, as the truth is much subtler than this. The truth that Buddha revealed is that there is no underlying inherently existing Truth of the entire cosmos. Just that all states of being are impermanent and that all is connected, but not that everything is of one substance. It's an entirely different way of viewing that will be hard for you to comprehend at first due to being conditioned very strongly by Hindu dogmas. Inter-dependent origination is a much subtler realization that empties this clinging to ones formless experience as a Self of all. It is a worthy state of experience because one understands connectivity better, but one also must be trained in "right view". As the Buddha said, those that take up meditation as the path without "right view" are merely conditioned by their states of meditation. This is what happens in Brahma paths.

ok we really arent going anywhere here. I understand what you are saying entirely. and its great and has some truths. I didnt want to get into a literal comparision. You are stil using Hindu as a term, the definition of Brahma i posted is still not understood among other things. I can not literally put it in words to help you understand my point.

 

The only thing that My Guru said about what Buddha taught, was that what always existed before him, which is Sanatana Dharma, is what he was teaching, in the meaning that i stated, not HINDUISM or what pertains to misunderstandings of it.

its a variation.

 

your explanations are great from a Buddhist standpoint and i enjoy reading it. however it seems that your understanding of what we practice is as limited as my understanding of what you practiced. i am not talking philosophical discussions of Buddhism and "Hinduism" here. I am speaking of practical techniques and where they lead. so therefore its useless to continue on this back and forth philosophical journey we are on. LOL we could debate from here til eternity and all that is going to do is delay our own progress since we will spend so much time on here instead of practicing. LOL

 

we can agree to disagree and of course i have no ill will towards you or your ideas as far as this is concerned. i appreciate your view point very much and the time you took to respond to mine. your viewpoint has truth in it and thats hard to find on this forum. LOL there are many differences and misunderstanding on both sides so i guess we both are idiots in many ways. LOL what i dont appreciate (and this didnt come from you Vaj) is remarks from the peanut gallery. a good healthy discussion is a must because whether you are right, i am right, doesnt matter, people will read and come to their own conclusions and perhaps seach things out for themselves. this is a good thing. so thanks again for the tidbits.

 

 

 

peace brother.

 

my parrot eats peanuts BTW......

Edited June 22, 2010 by yuanqi

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Buddhist minefield

[ShaktiMama]

I love you ShaktiMama

 

Don't take things personally. When you are to a point in life where you are just standing in awe of the light, well, there's little "person" left to take things personally right? Both "good" and "bad" things.

 

And remember, when people "attack" it is ALWAYS because of fear and confusion. The only "real" response can be Love.

 

Love!

 

I have much gratitude and I feel your love. Thank you so much.

I am always on the beginner path or as they say, "always a white belt"

 

Much love back at you.

May the joy of Shakti gently flow,

s

[Vajrahridaya]

What ever it is you have you have direct experience of what ever it is. Your energy runs deep, cool, and soothing. It feels anchored, expansive, and smooth, like Shiva consciousness.

 

You obviously know what you are talking about not just from reading in books or parroting a guru.

 

Thanks for that little bit of darshan.

 

Much gratitude,

Susan

 

Yes, I like Shiva... he's my favorite Hindu god and he, Kali, and Ganesh have a high standing in Buddhist Tantric Texts which can be read about.

 

For the record, I like you and Santi's energy as well. I love the video you posted of Santi giving Reiki. I have atunment as well in that tradition so am quite sensitive to that energy. I had a very nice and deeply relaxing nap after watching that video. It was meditative.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yes, I like Shiva... he's my favorite Hindu god and he, Kali, and Ganesh have a high standing in Buddhist Tantric Texts which can be read about.

 

For the record, I like you and Santi's energy as well. I love the video you posted of Santi giving Reiki. I have atunment as well in that tradition so am quite sensitive to that energy. I had a very nice and deeply relaxing nap after watching that video. It was meditative.

 

 

 

Favorites huh? why is that?

[Raymond Wolter]

Vajra,

 

I have a question for you. What is your take on the different vehicles of Buddhism? Are they different only in terms of speed or is the realization coming from them different as well? I am speaking more in terms of techniques rather than philosophy. For example, a Thera practices samata and vipassana practices in a certain way outlined in the Pali Suttas whereas an esoteric Buddhist like a Sakyapa will do samata and vipassana through mantras, breath practices, mandala visualization etc. Do both lead one to the same realization or they are like progressive steps? Thanks.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I wrote to Santiago a while ago and had the same experience. He referred to the Kunlun teacher as a fraud and told me not to waste time with it and do KAP to learn the REAL stuff. I actually got to this forum looking for more details on the REAL stuff/KAP. Over the top advertising and mockery of other systems IMO is not necessary to promote one's wares.

On the other hand, Max has showed respect for other systems. The marketing of the book aside, I speak from what he has actually said, even recently. To respect each tradition.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Buddhist minefield

More like a Taobums greatest hits. .

[Aetherous]

To respect each tradition.

 

And giggle when they speak like this...

 

"I wrote to Santiago a while ago and had the same experience. He referred to the Kunlun teacher as a fraud and told me not to waste time with it and do KAP to learn the REAL stuff."

[ShaktiMama]

LOL what i dont appreciate (and this didnt come from you Vaj) is remarks from the peanut gallery. a good healthy discussion is a must because whether you are right, i am right, doesnt matter, people will read and come to their own conclusions and perhaps seach things out for themselves. this is a good thing. so thanks again for the tidbits.

 

 

 

peace brother.

 

my parrot eats peanuts BTW......

 

my dad used to say to me when I was little girl, "no comments from the peanut gallery" when he thought I was being a smart ass. So you liked to watch Howdy Doody too? Before my time. My dad is 86.

 

So maybe you don't think what I say has value and is detrimental to this conversation? I did not know this conversation was just about you and your info. Was it your intent to be so dimissive of me? It is hard for me to know for sure because you won't say my name in public although you seem to like to talk about me and my perceived shortcomings a lot. I wasnt even talking about you but referencing how often people quote and quote their gurus and copy and paste text after text to justify what they believe rather than hear from their personal experiences how their lives have been transformed by their practice.

 

Here's my quote for the day taken from a review of "Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics" by Marsha Sinetar (1986)

 

A good question for the journey is, how can we laypeople best avoid the spiritual vanity of a self-constructed "holy" life or a preoccupation with self-fulfillment, and how can we most humbly and authentically, like little children, love God and neighbor?

 

 

You come across as paternal and even patronizing. Do you know that?

s

[Sahaj Nath]

I went to see Santi once and when I mentioned Kunlun Posture I, he sort of mockingly dismissed it.

 

That kind of turned me off. But I still do some stuff from KAP.

 

This isn't totally relevant, but sort of in roundabout ways.

 

i'll run with it a little bit, because i think it moves a step closer to the point i'm trying to highlight.

 

Santi and i BOTH have our misgivings about Max, but i don't think he ever came out and leveled the kind of PUBLIC criticisms that i did. he even told me that he monitored his word choices so as not to upset too many people, but he seemed to be okay with letting loose when he thought he was in good company (or as in your case, in the great majority).

 

i never had a problem with the Yi Gong practice. my problems were all with Max specifically. and right or wrong, i was IN NO WAY ambiguous about where i stood.

 

ambiguity can be a tricky thing. in the experience you described it can be a way of claiming "i'm WAY beyond Max" without ever having to say it. that way, you can always fall back on your public record and past statements of humility. it's the kind of thing that politicians do. making statements without making any "statements."

 

 

 

 

...

 

I said on June 12 in this thread

 

I think it is not a good thing to call oneself a master of anything. Mastery is a life long pursuit. Walking the path of kundalini development is no different. Let other people say who you are....remain silent and let the results speak for themselves.

 

...

 

1} I have never said ONCE since my k awoke that i am a master.

2) I have never said ONCE since my k awoke that i am enlightened.

3) I have said many, many times that no major spiritual tradition has a lock on Divine Energy, Shakti, Shiva, God, Ruah, etc. etc. etc.

4) Shaktipat is easy. No big deal.

5) Awakening Kundalini is simple. It's living with it for the rest of your life that can be difficult.

6) When I got shaktipat I did not know what it was. I did not know what the term kundalini was. I did not know what Shiva Shakti, etc was. Hinduism was/is as foreign to me as being born in India.

7) I am a mystic and I am not a spiritual technocrat who identifies with one system. Some people need that and it is OK. I don't.

 

So I could carry on this conversation but I have to work.

 

lovely, soft, shakti blessings to you all,

s

 

 

Susan, in case you it hasn't been obvious in my previous posts in this thread: I LIKE YOU! i genuinely mean that, but that doesn't make you & Santi beyond a healthy criticism. too often it feels like i have to choose a side. well, I DON'T. i don't live that way. no matter who i like more in a controversy, my first priority is to the truth as i see it, and as my understanding changes or grows, so does my position, but it has nothing to do with my feelings about you as a person.

 

but here AGAIN you're making it sound as if you're being viciously attacked, even drawing on some past experience in which you actually WERE physically attacked. that sucks, and that should never happen, but that's NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE! so let's put that away. yuanqi is not attacking you or santi, and i'm not either. well, moreso than yuanqi because that's just how i talk, but i'm really trying to be constructive here.

 

people who get that impression of "i'm a master" from you guys are not all just crazy. stating that you are not a master doesn't prevent you from making or encouraging that impression in others. you can bullet-point all the right things that you've said, and there is STILL some validity to why some folks feel that way. i think you would do well to take some of that on-board.

 

now, even having said that, there's no question to me that you are a lot more skillful in your words than Santi has been in the past (i lump you both together cuz you seem to act as a unit around here), but the reference that i made, which you quoted, was to a very REAL post in '08 from a guy compiling a list of "real" masters with "real" abilities who taught publicly. in that list were Wang Li Ping, Robert Peng, Jerry Alan Johnson, Max, and Santiago (with a nod to John Chang thrown in there). Santi never corrected or clarified the association, and later on i think even participated in the thread, so i know he saw it. i can try to find the thread if it matters.

 

i haven't been around much in the past year or so, so i don't have a lot of current examples, but there are lots of times when even at a glance i've seen posts that really, really tow the line. jump in like experts, brag about all the power you guys have and what it can do, then get sniped at from people who don't like it but don't necessarily articulate it as clearly as i've been attempting to, and then it's all about unfair attacks and how humble you guys are.

 

that's just not reality. and i'm not saying you guys are bad people. i think you guys are beautiful. i really mean that. i'm glad you guys are around. but you've gotta OWN some of this, in my opinion. because some of the misconceptions your/santi's mastery has been encouraged by you guys, even though you might never make the statement "I AM A MASTER."

 

i recall more recently a thread about Jerry Alan Johnson (or maybe it was the same thread, i don't know), who is one of the most skilled masters teaching in the states, and whose qigong textbooks are even used in some chinese medicine schools in china. it's hard to dispute the man's credentials. before i knew who he was, i saw him move on a video, and i immediately knew he was a master. he's that good. and yet i recall you commenting very casually about how you did a workshop with his students and how blown away they were by your energy. now, i'm certain that you never claimed that you were on the same level as JAJ, but really? what impression does that kind of statement encourage? and when someone commented about being sick of how you guys hijack threads and brag about how great you are, you responded again about how unfairly attacked you are, and how you were merely sharing what happened, and how it's not your fault you're so amazing. i mean seriously, it happens. it doesn't come out in statements like "i'm enlightened" or "i'm a master," but it does come out.

 

to me it's an issue of maturity, not ability. i know you guys have the goods, that you can and DO give a tremendous amount to those who are willing to receive it. and MUCH of that is VERY selfless and beautiful. that's absolutely true! but the other is there as well. it's not all one or the other. and so when some people are agitated by what they perceive (whether correctly or incorrectly) as intentional deceit or shameless seminar pedaling, there IS a basis for it. it's not just in their heads.

 

you guys are human. you don't need to be perfect, and i'm certainly not trying to hold you to an impossible standard. i'm just saying that there's some stuff you guys could benefit from examining a little more closely, and just own some of it. maybe not all of it, but some. because it's there. and i personally think it does diminish you a bit to deny it.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Hundun

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaj, what did buddha mean as the unborn, the unoriginated, the uncreated, the deathless, in your opinion?

 

honest question not trying to stir anything up

 

peace

 

It's fine. I like this question anyway. The Buddha is just talking about the state of Nirvana, the state of seeing through everything, including one's self, he's not talking about an absolute existing entity. Because when a theist reads that, they project something other than what it means within the context of Buddha teaching, they project inherent existence.

 

Translations of this stuff into English can be hampering. He means the state of realization is unoriginated because the universe has no origin primal origin for itself, as in this moment across the cosmos is not self caused. There is no cosmos really, just endless inter-relations, inter-connections that have relationships with each other in order to manifest things manipulated by sentient energies that are also co-originated. This is an endless process with no beginning, no primal cause. If one understands dependent origination, one realizes that because all aspects are caused and all causes are themselves caused ad infinitum, that there really is no inherently existing universe, that it's all relative, so to see right through this is to realize that all our concepts are not self originated including our self experience.

 

The translation of "un" in front of all these is due to the realization of this cosmos and all experiences being inter-dependently originated which means emptiness, this is not a thing, but a realization of the malleable and non-static nature of existence, this leads mind, which also arises dependently, to experience an expansive luminosity, but without self reference. So, the unoriginated Nirvana is a realization of the true nature of things. If one realizes impermanence permanently on all levels, then one has the endless realization of Buddhahood. What I posted above in reply to Yuanqi where it talks about Madhyamaka and Pratityasamutpada should be read. Especially the part where Nagarjuna explains the non-inherent existence of cause and effect. Because nothing arises by it's own nature, things don't arise inherently at all, thus nothing truly exists from it's own side, leading to the realization that is unoriginated. Yet, this realization still originates dependent upon realizing dependent origination which does not inherently exist, so all concepts are subverted, including infinite concepts or identifications. So, it's all quite the play, and to describe the fact that what the Buddha described as the "all" as inter-dependently originated is actually saying that everything just flows without an absolute for support, and this is absolutely true. The absolute Truth of Buddhahood is that there is no absolute truth. All states and all aspects arise relatively so are empty of self existence. Even the state of Nirvana does not inherently exist.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

my dad used to say to me when I was little girl, "no comments from the peanut gallery" when he thought I was being a smart ass. So you liked to watch Howdy Doody too? Before my time. My dad is 86.

 

So maybe you don't think what I say has value and is detrimental to this conversation? I did not know this conversation was just about you and your info. Was it your intent to be so dimissive of me? It is hard for me to know for sure because you won't say my name in public although you seem to like to talk about me and my perceived shortcomings a lot. I wasnt even talking about you but referencing how often people quote and quote their gurus and copy and paste text after text to justify what they believe rather than hear from their personal experiences how their lives have been transformed by their practice.

 

Here's my quote for the day taken from a review of "Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics" by Marsha Sinetar (1986)

 

A good question for the journey is, how can we laypeople best avoid the spiritual vanity of a self-constructed "holy" life or a preoccupation with self-fulfillment, and how can we most humbly and authentically, like little children, love God and neighbor?

 

 

You come across as paternal and even patronizing. Do you know that?

s

 

 

 

often people quote and quote their gurus and copy and paste text after text to justify what they believe rather than hear from their personal experiences

 

 

 

I apologize for being rude or brash by emphasizing this line, but it is quite crucial for understanding and respecting the opposing approaches.

 

Indoctrination versus first hand experience.

 

Indoctrination preaches and convinces of traditional ways. that is not necessarily wrong, but it is not inherently correct. it is a means to an end. effective for some, not so much for others, but efficiency is the emphasis, not effectiveness.

 

First hand experience, or as i have come to learn it as: the "school of hard knocks" does not preach any particular tradition or methodology, but emphasizes on the self, and the self-capability to learn. learning is an inherent function of the mind and does not pre-require an effort in example or teaching, for examples present themselves autonomously and constantly, we need only be willing to look for them and reflect on them.

 

Not efficient at all, but highly effective. if you seek the effect, do it yourself. if you jsut want to be guided by the hand and "shown the way" so that you can do it yourself in your next life, that is fine too.

 

 

BUT STOP ARGUING OVER THE METHODS!

 

 

 

[CarsonZi]

Hi ShaktiMama and All

 

A good question for the journey is, how can we laypeople best avoid the spiritual vanity of a self-constructed "holy" life or a preoccupation with self-fulfillment, and how can we most humbly and authentically, like little children, love God and neighbor?

 

To me, the answer to this question is "karma yoga"....doing something for someone else, today. It is important to engage in our spiritual practices every day, but if we aren't using what we are gaining from these practices for the betterment of humanity, well, then.....it's gonna be a long, hard, very lonely journey IME. Giving away that which we are cultivating in practices is a sure way to authentically love God and neighbor....and then we will be like innocent little children, joyful and laughing all day long.

 

Just another comment from the peanut gallery

 

Love!

[Raymond Wolter]

Santi and i BOTH have our misgivings about Max, but i don't think he ever came out and leveled the kind of PUBLIC criticisms that i did. he even told me that he monitored his word choices so as not to upset too many people, but he seemed to be okay with letting loose when he thought he was in good company (or as in your case, in the great majority).

 

i never had a problem with the Yi Gong practice. my problems were all with Max specifically. and right or wrong, i was IN NO WAY ambiguous about where i stood.

 

ambiguity can be a tricky thing. in the experience you described it can be a way of claiming "i'm WAY beyond Max" without ever having to say it. that way, you can always fall back on your public record and past statements of humility. it's the kind of thing that politicians do. making statements without making any "statements."

 

 

 

 

Well.....you can't always believe what you hear. One of my closest friends said it this way once....."Max can do everything he says but Max is a Bullshitter". Believe me they know Max better than all the folks studying with him now.

 

I can tell you that having studied Bon Po for real and seeing Max's DVD, there is stuff missing in the practice he gives either cause he:

 

1)made it more watered down for westerners

2)is holding out valuable info for what ever reason.

3) Does not know the other practices dzogchen practices that are missing in his Vajra Kilaya practice that he gives.

 

Max is talented for sure. I can assure you though had Glenn worn the robes and the funny chinese outfits and acted all "Light & Bliss" and changed his name to swami lama vajra natha ding dong he would put all these guys out of business. Glenn's Kundalini is real so where his siddhis. But he stuck to his wife beaters & cargo shorts and sandals. He was as real as it gets.

 

peace

Santiago

 

 

Well I do not know what Max is doing now as "KUNLUN"....

 

I do know that in the past he taught things that automatically can stimulate kundalini (thunder breathing, Indochinese dragon circulation etc). My students and Glenn's students that used to train with Max years ago in hawaii, did just fine doing KAP and no they did not drop dead or "spontaneous combust".

 

Peace

Santiago

 

I do not get why Max can be vague at times. He should be clear as to what is safe and what is not. Sounds to me like he is having people have spontaneous awakenings (Kundalini). I am not denying he has some abilities and talent and that he is very good. I am however speaking from a place of experience and also from friends that know max from years before all the kunlun hoopla that Max is a Bullshitter.

 

I know he has changed things through out the past and I know he has said its not SAFE to do Kundalini practices if you bring the energy from above down....I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS. Infact it contradicts all the OLD BON, NYINGMA, Taoist Greater Kan & li, & Shamanic ESOTERIC PRACTICES.

 

Peace

Santiago

 

 

All I said was Kun Lun is Old Bon po that is a fact not an opinion.

 

My best wishes to you who do Kun Lun.

 

Peace

Santiago Dobles

 

 

 

You forgot to mention he is the Messiah cause he faked his death and the resurrected himself.

 

 

Max's 2 old students where at the KAP RETREAT last weekend and they had zero issues.

 

In fact they where doing great. I know Vortex has done Kun lun too and when he was with me there was no issue either. I have not heard from him in a bit but i am sure he is ok.

 

I will tell you this much KAP is safe especially once you know what you are doing. I have done healing on folks that currently do Kun Lun and have been un rooted from such a practice. And they found themselves feeling much more "together" than before. I am not going to open another can of worms. But Max likes to tell fairy tales.

 

Dr. Andy,

 

Do yourself a favor, Do not Compare Kundalini with Kun Lun....Especially KAP...Frankly only those in the course are the only ones who really will know what KAP is and Dr. Glenn Morris's Kundalini methodology.

 

And yes to answer your questionyou have yet asked.... I have had 3 so far folks that did Kun lun and now do KAP. I am not going to tell you how they are doing now or what was needed to be done to bring one of them back to earth and rooted. I have mentioned before i also have 2 of Pre fake deathed Max's old students who also Trained with Glenn who are doing JUST fine with KAP & Hoshin tao Chi Kung and have had zero issues. I am not going to reopen the can of worms about Kun lun nor Max again. But its best we not Compare nor speculate until we do.

 

 

And ........................................

 

 

 

On the other hand, Max has showed respect for other systems.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Raymond Wolter

[Raymond Wolter]

You come across as paternal and even patronizing. Do you know that?

s

 

So do you

[yuanqi]

my dad used to say to me when I was little girl, "no comments from the peanut gallery" when he thought I was being a smart ass. So you liked to watch Howdy Doody too? Before my time. My dad is 86.

 

So maybe you don't think what I say has value and is detrimental to this conversation? I did not know this conversation was just about you and your info. Was it your intent to be so dimissive of me? It is hard for me to know for sure because you won't say my name in public although you seem to like to talk about me and my perceived shortcomings a lot. I wasnt even talking about you but referencing how often people quote and quote their gurus and copy and paste text after text to justify what they believe rather than hear from their personal experiences how their lives have been transformed by their practice.

 

Here's my quote for the day taken from a review of "Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics" by Marsha Sinetar (1986)

 

A good question for the journey is, how can we laypeople best avoid the spiritual vanity of a self-constructed "holy" life or a preoccupation with self-fulfillment, and how can we most humbly and authentically, like little children, love God and neighbor?

 

 

You come across as paternal and even patronizing. Do you know that?

s

yeah i am a father so its in my instincts. LOL as for the patronizing goes, yes i am a patron of this site. LOL i dont mean to come across that way even if i do sometimes. i know how it sounds from what i write on occassion. i read it too. LOL but it shouldnt be looked at as such just because i dont have the patience or time to thoroughly go thru and make eloquent posts. i tend to get to the point and sometimes my post get jumbled up because of that or i dont go in and correct the first thought that comes to mind.

 

i liked howdy doody and i wasnt specifically referring to you dear. before my time too. LOL i was referring to some that havent been on here any length of time or just jumped on the thread and decided to make some smart ass comments or nonsensical comments. LOL

 

now i am gonna lay it on the line for ya so there is no misunderstanding.

 

i can tell from your posts that your an extremely intelligent and caring individual as is Vaj. i can also tell that you have something and people like it (him too). its not just charisma. that you are doing a good thing in a lot of ways from different perspectives. the world and people in it need it.

 

i am a traditionalist regardless of its downfalls. i believe what i believe and what i have found from my own inner searchings, which i might add we do not elaborate on since its ours and the journey isnt complete so coming out and saying many of our personal experiences we just dont do as we dont know everything there is to know....yet. so sometimes it can come across as i wont answer a specific question or continue a debate because my realizations are for me until i am at the level where it is entirely truth and then some things still cant be shared. LOL some can. sometimes i dont share because i dont know. LOL

 

i have been around long enough and practiced different things long enough to know that somethings are a waste of time and somethings actually help on your path. I shared my thoughts on Shaktipat and i dont recall ever saying that what KAP does for people is BS or that it cant help them in some ways. its not just KAP itself necessarily its the people that are behind it that help the person. this is what you all do. you are helping people and i commend you for it. my only point coming from the direction i do has been discussed already so i wont go back there. i am only trying to make a point.

 

as for your conversations they arent detrimental at all, in fact i like reading them.

do i agree with them always...well no..but that doesnt mean i think everything you say is complete horse crap. LOL come one. ANYONE can tell you and Vaj know some stuff. sometimes when i post and it may seem directed at you in your mind, in mine i am thinking of someone completely different, not on this board at all that i have came across but i dont like to mention names that often. some i have thought of have been recently spoke about here. i just dont care to name names all the time. sometimes i say its a joke for people to charge what they do, this isnt directed at you personally either. i ask quesitons like why charge that much. why call it that etc. i understand the universe doesnt care if someone gets paid but my God some charges hundreds and i think that is a bit much but its only my opinion. thats all.

 

so as you can see i am not always thinking about what i can say to ruffle your feathers or just disagreeing with you just to do so. i stated my thoughts before. there is no need to continue down that line right now. now hopefully this will ease the tension that leaps out of the computer screen and we can go on with our little discussions.

 

i can say, whether what you do is REAL or not, what you are doing helps people so that should be looked at as a positive thing and i can honor that.

[Sahaj Nath]

..........................

 

 

fair enough. it doesn't really change my point, though. as i said in the post, i'm referencing way back when Santi first began posting here (i've been out of loop for a long time), and back then there was a lot of heat directed at anyone who openly criticized "kunlun" as a system or max as a person. what Santi told me about chosing his words carefully so as not to upset folks was accurate. it was during a phone conversation that he and i had at the time when i was considering flying down to Florida to train with him.

 

over time the forum got a lot more accepting of the open criticism of max and his system, but it was damn-near forbidden when i first posted my misgivings, and there were VERY FEW people willing to agree with me publicly. i got emails, but not much public support. but whatevs.

 

my only point is that towing ambiguous lines are a bit of a theme with respect to presentation. i still think that's a fair statement.

[gendao]

^ Just wanted to say that I've always appreciated the ballsy sincerity of your posts, whether I agreed with them or not.. I like guys who don't blindly succumb to peer pressure. VERY tough job, and extremely understaffed in our world!

Guruji- Nirvana essentially is a term in Sanatana Dharma. Gautama Buddha himself, his parents and his ancestors all belonged to Sanatana Dharma. Whatever Buddha has expounded is all gleaned from Sanatana Dharma. Hence the term Nirvana is not exclusively Buddhist, its origin is in Sanatana Dharma. In the Sanatana Dharma scriptures which were composed a few thousand years before the advent of Buddha, the word Nirvana finds mention. Nirvana is a state of a Yogi. Vana denotes arrow or else breath. Practising diligent yogasadhana when the breathing motion is ceased, this state of cessation is Nirvana. But it should be remembered that this is not the final state of a Yogi. Although at present it is the last stage of Buddhism. After attaining Nirvana, Prana-Vibration does exist a little in the yogi. He cannot attain complete stillness even then. Later when the Yogi augmenting austere sadhana arrives at static Brahma (this is true zero vibration), his sadhana ends there. This state is termed as Nirvikalpa Samadhi or Kriya's Transcendental state. This Nirvikalpa Samadhi is much more elevated than the state of Nirvana.

This sounds right. Recently, I was contemplating "tuning in" to the emptiness like a "zero" brainwave..

 

Today, I found a "stillpoint" at around my heart that I can "lock" into.

 

This may all be empirical BS, but the point is that I also believe that utter stillness is the key.

 

 

Disengage your mind to empty your thoughts.

Still your heart and leave it unstirred by emotions.

Settle your awareness into your dantian.

Edited June 22, 2010 by vortex

[ShaktiMama]

No worries. I know you do. I can feel it.

 

So i don't know how to do individual quoting things.

 

JAJ: not my finest hour. I was wrong and wrong in my approach. I got caught up in the male frat behavior that sometimes goes on here. That was a major fail. I apologized many times but was still chopped up, shredded and shit on until the moderators intervened.

 

Max: One of his certified instructors was at first a student and is now a friend of mine. I keep out of it.

 

Criticism: All well and good but I often feel like shark bait. I am not used to being on a list of mostly men who think shredding each other is all in good fun and then lets all go out and have a beer. Santi just shrugs it off and forgets about it. Men do that. Women don't. I don't think I will ever get used to it.

 

Attacks: eh, forget it.

 

For the record: I do not feel attacked by you. Never have.

 

Master stuff: For the record, I see myself as more of an older sister/tribal elder who has something to share. Some of the younger ones, especially from Europe, call me Sri Ma or Mataji. Uh, that took awhile to get used to cause I sure don't feel like someone's mom. My understanding of mastery, my take on it, requires balance in all areas and not just a spiritual discipline. I aint there yet. I may be an idiot savant in a some area but in others I am still a learning. How often can we talk about gurus and spiritual leaders who have difficulty keeping their penis in their pants? Hello. That's not mastery no matter how well they can expound on sacred scriptures and what kind of mojo juice they radiate. It doesn't diminish from their accomplishments but it certainly calls into question definitions of enlightenment and Master.

 

It took me a long time to learn how to differentiate talent from virtue. They aint always related at all but it is common to equate talent (shaktipat wizard) with virtue.

 

Own some of this: I have no control over what people say about me. For years I have jumped in and said, no don't say this for I am no one. One time someone built a website and put me up as a shaktipat master. It looked like a freaking shrine. I made them take that down immediately as soon as I found out. Jeez...calling me a master makes me terribly uncomfortable. I have never gone to master school. I know my personal life. I fuck up way too much to ever wear that title. Where in the world people still get the idea that we think we are perfect we will never know. I swear, I have never heard the word fart said so much until i sit on a chat with some of the KAP students. Maybe cause a good portion of them are young men in college. Ok...maybe I deny it too often so it makes people think differently but I do get tired of it all. No one has given me a guidebook on how to do this what I do.I am a practicing human being, one of the last imperfect ones.

 

I am immature. I just can't win. I say I am not a master then someone comes and says I am and then someone comes along and says we are both full of crap. I give up.

 

I can only speak from my own experiences. When I share my experiences people think or say I am a master or enlightened or whatever. Sorry...those are just experiences. Experiences don't make a master or enlightenement. Just byways on the path. I am, like stoner says, learning my stuff along the school of hard knocks path. I was fortunate to have met Dr. Morris and Santiago who do have traditional training and had, have there fair share of gurus and masters. So the unit, as you call Santi and myself , has both to offer. Makes a unique offering and can make things more efficient in operation.

 

Santiago has said to me, "You need to work on such and such. It's done like this traditionally." He actually say it in the most kind way. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. He is saying i need walking practice now. I believe it. I try to walk like they teach in KAP and I start falling over on my own feet. I look like an idiot.

 

One can certainly be a master or enlightened without kundalini. It might take longer but it does happen.

 

So that is just a little bit.

s

i'll run with it a little bit, because i think it moves a step closer to the point i'm trying to highlight.

 

you guys are human. you don't need to be perfect, and i'm certainly not trying to hold you to an impossible standard. i'm just saying that there's some stuff you guys could benefit from examining a little more closely, and just own some of it. maybe not all of it, but some. because it's there. and i personally think it does diminish you a bit to deny it.

[ShaktiMama]

So do you

 

 

I would send you a membership card but it is not a very exclusive club.

s

[Edward M]

Hi Vaj,

 

 

Thanks for your reply

 

i understand what you have written (i think)....and i agree everything is interconnected, but i don't get the cause going back adinfinitum,, because where did all the causes start off, don't you think there was a first cause of being/existence and from that everything evolved interconectidely (sp?) ?

 

I'm not saying there was once a being that caused the the first cause..more like the first cause itself is what we would term God, or the underlying principle that buddha first learned after leaving the palace which he understood and accepted.

 

Thanks again!

Ed

Edited June 22, 2010 by Edward M

[C T]

As it's spoken about in the Mahayana that Nirvana only leads to the beginning of the Bodhisattva path which culminates as full Buddhahood, which is really just the beginning of experiencing Samsara as Nirvana. Nirvana is not an absorption into a higher universal consciousness and neither is Buddhahood. Nirvikalpa Samadhi is merely one of the Samadhi states that is not to be taken up as a Self. Also in the mind-only school it is considered the 9th consciousness and not to be taken up as a Self, as is warned in the teachings.

 

Though, Nirvikalpa or Sahaja Samadhi as it's called when one integrates nirguna brahman with the experience of form, is a lofty goal indeed, but it could not be equated with full blown Buddhahood, but merely as a stage of developing the 4 immeasurables as well as the inner empowered state of stillness.

I am grateful for all your insights Vajrahridaya, and for the constant reminders to maintain right view. Inspiring, to say the least. I can see your sincerity, and the fact that there are no motives behind your words other than being a vehicle to carry the words of the Tathagata is truly admirable.

 

Unlike me, you are a true ambassador of buddhadharma, a fact recognisable thru your deep, spontaneous understanding and expression of the teachings. May your progress be swift, and your path free from obstacles.

 

May all beings develop right view, and be free from the causes of ignorance and deep sorrows.

May all beings enjoy the fruits thereof.

 

_/\_