Shaktipat

[Vajrahridaya]

Favorites huh? why is that?

 

Shiva and Kali are considered two Buddhas who teach Brahma yoga to those that only have the karma for this level of understanding, but they are already destined to manifest as Buddhas in Nirmanakaya in the future. I've had deep experiences with the Bodhisattva Ganesh in open eye states of Samadhi. Also, I grew up a Shaivite before I went to Buddhism. Tantric Shaivism and Vajrayana as well as Dzogchen have somewhat similar features except for the fact that true creationship is given to the deity Shiva where in Buddhism that just doesn't swing as there is no supreme creator or source to existence. The insight of Dependent Origination reveals that it's all more chaotic than that, so there is more to internally order and burn away than is realized in Monist paths.

[Vajrahridaya]

Can you say a bit more about what Nirvikalpa Samadhi is acording to Budhism? Is it the eight jhana? Is it Nirodha Samapitti?

 

This is exactly it, the conscious stilling of all pranas or winds, and the bliss of formless transcendence occurs. This stilling does not burn completely the seed of selfhood and re-samsaric manifestation unless coupled with the intuition of right view applying emptiness and understanding how this too originates dependently and is not the static, unending source of existence, but rather merely a state of absorption. But, going into this state greatly increases an individuals capacity for love, bliss and compassion. Still, there is deeper as is notarized by the experience and explanations of Rigpa or Vajra-samadhi. The unending offering of merits allows one to manifest continuously for unending Samsaric beings and avoid re-absorption at the end of the cosmic eon as what happens with Brahma path practitioners.

 

If it is nothing more then it is irelevant and I find it puzzling that it is held as an essential attainment by some. If it is considered essential or a high state of enlightenment within a school then that would be a sign of the school not being good as it confuses nice states with enlightenment.

 

That is correct. These nice states though are confused by many because they can last for eons for an individual who holds one or other of the states as a Self of all. This identification with, allows the mind for an elongated subconscious focus on a formless light which illuminates very blissfully and turns one's karmas into an expression of blissful energy. Very great!! But not Buddhahood.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

, which is Sanatana Dharma,

 

 

The term Sanantana Dharma was first coined by the Buddha to explain the Buddhadharma, not Brahma dharma. The Buddha quite unabashedly reveals that Brahmadharma his a good path leading to high rebirth, but does not lead to complete liberation or complete understanding of the nature of Samsara.

 

. LOL we could debate from here til eternity and all that is going to do is delay our own progress since we will spend so much time on here instead of practicing. LOL

 

Well, debate is considered a practice called, "refining the view" in Buddhist tradition. It's because we don't take up samadhi as the entirety of the path, we understand as you do that service is also needed, but more so than in Hinduism is logic and reason needed to be completely refined and made clear and supple with the "right view" as is the first part of the 8 fold path, along with right concentration or samadhi.

 

we can agree to disagree and of course i have no ill will towards you

 

None to you as well dear brother on the path to deeper discovery! No problems.

 

LOL there are many differences and misunderstanding on both sides so i guess we both are idiots in many ways.

 

I am merely a bug!

 

 

peace brother.

 

my parrot eats peanuts BTW......

 

Saweet! You have a parrot? Lets see a picture!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

May all beings develop right view, and be free from the causes of ignorance and deep sorrows.

May all beings enjoy the fruits thereof.

 

_/\_

 

This is my only wish here... is to sew seeds of contemplation and investigation... even if it agitates some aggregates.

 

I also have the selfish need for refining the view and refining my expression of the view through confrontation that works things out of my own Pandoras Box, sort of speak. Eh? But, it really isn't selfish as the merit gained is eventually offered to others anyway. So, may we all realize Buddhahood for the sake of endless beings that do not inherently exist, care of the Prajnaparamita.

[Starjumper]

i'll run with it a little bit, because i think it moves a step closer to the point i'm trying to highlight.

 

Santi and i BOTH have our misgivings about Max, but i don't think he ever came out and leveled the kind of PUBLIC criticisms that i did. he even told me that he monitored his word choices so as not to upset too many people, but he seemed to be okay with letting loose when he thought he was in good company (or as in your case, in the great majority).

 

i never had a problem with the Yi Gong practice. my problems were all with Max specifically. and right or wrong, i was IN NO WAY ambiguous about where i stood.

 

ambiguity can be a tricky thing. in the experience you described it can be a way of claiming "i'm WAY beyond Max" without ever having to say it. that way, you can always fall back on your public record and past statements of humility. it's the kind of thing that politicians do. making statements without making any "statements."

 

I was here near the beginning too and went through the same reactions from the crowd. I remember posting a comment to you about it and you said something like don't dis Max because you were going to give it a try. I think that was you. Did you give it a try?

 

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the reason Santi won't crap on Max is because this forum is his marketplace, or one of them, and to do so makes one look bad, doesn't it? Also because he is willing to accept all comers, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

Since then I've learned more about that situation. It turns out that the name Mao Shan has a certain ring to it, and alluring ring which sounds attractive, and as it originated it was popular. This did not escape the notice of the Tong and they then started using the name to scam suckers and it worked so well and became even more popular, particularly in Hong Kong. The name Kunlun, which really isn't Kunlun as it is presented by the Mao Shan, also has a certain alluring ring to it.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi Vaj,

 

 

Thanks for your reply

 

i understand what you have written (i think)....and i agree everything is interconnected, but i don't get the cause going back adinfinitum,, because where did all the causes start off, don't you think there was a first cause of being/existence and from that everything evolved interconectidely (sp?) ?

 

 

The cycling is beginningless and endless. Things go from form to formless states in different universes at different times, some stay in form for longer and more blissful vibration permeates these universes and some others are more dense like this one, but it's all still related to the endless chain of causes and conditions without a primal origin. This is exactly what the Buddha taught that is different from all other traditions of planet Earth. If you go into formless samadhi with right view, more will be revealed even past the beginning of this universe. You can see how this formless state just holds the potential for re-manifestation in suspension within one's unconscious, but the seeds aren't burnt without fully and intuitively understanding and applying emptiness, and the experience of Rigpa and a vision of the 6 realms, broken down into 31 planes of existence (used just for explanation as it's all infinite) is not had with clarity. When Dharmakaya is explained as what all things arise from and cease into, they are talking about emptiness, which is merely a quality of phenomena as there is no transcendent entity or source of all things. The transcendent states are just called that due to altered states of mental focus. They really are not transcendent of causes and conditions, even if they seem like, "zero point" energy, there is still the potential for re-manifestation if one takes this zero point experience as a self. Things don't actually find their source in the zero point as the zero point is also a phenomena, an important experience, but not a Self of all, it's just the repression of the perception of qualities through heightened focus. There is no alpha or omega according to Buddhist cosmology.

 

I'm not saying there was once a being that caused the the first cause..more like the first cause itself is what we would term God, or the underlying principle that buddha first learned after leaving the palace which he understood and accepted.

 

Thanks again!

Ed

 

What underlying principle? He was first taught by Upanishadic forrest dwellers after leaving the palace and so believed at first in a transcendent causeless cause, or Brahman. But he later left this teaching and these teachers and went deeper, having discovered the insight of inter-dependent origination, then came back to teach these teachers of the subtler realization that is Buddhadharma.

 

No problem Ed!

 

Take care...

[Edward M]

Hey Vaj....thanks once again...i'll have to contemplate it a lot, because it is so against what i've imagined/visualised it to be like; that is probably the problem, i need to experience it lol..

 

yea man hugs all round hehe!!

 

cheers

Ed

[Lucky7Strikes]

I was here near the beginning too and went through the same reactions from the crowd. I remember posting a comment to you about it and you said something like don't dis Max because you were going to give it a try. I think that was you. Did you give it a try?

 

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the reason Santi won't crap on Max is because this forum is his marketplace, or one of them, and to do so makes one look bad, doesn't it? Also because he is willing to accept all comers, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

Since then I've learned more about that situation. It turns out that the name Mao Shan has a certain ring to it, and alluring ring which sounds attractive, and as it originated it was popular. This did not escape the notice of the Tong and they then started using the name to scam suckers and it worked so well and became even more popular, particularly in Hong Kong. The name Kunlun, which really isn't Kunlun as it is presented by the Mao Shan, also has a certain alluring ring to it.

I remember you once boasted about how you learned to give cancer to others from your master.

 

The way you've conducted yourself here speaks volumes, quick to accuse then boast. As with Santiago's posts above.

 

Max and Jenny have showed great respect to other cultivators and traditions. The bliss was there to attract people initially, but it has been clarified that it is not the point of theirs or any other practice. Nor is martial prowess, or powers to move weather or shoot energy or kundalini bliss.

 

Compassion, self healing, and non-dependence on teachers has always been the central message.

 

I post this for others to read an judge. I've read over the controversy over Kunlun since the beginning. I have had my doubts (which have greatly hindered progress), been to KAP, met Santiago, Max, and Jenny. Max and Jenny's humility speaks for itself.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

Hey Vaj....thanks once again...i'll have to contemplate it a lot, because it is so against what i've imagined/visualised it to be like; that is probably the problem, i need to experience it lol..

 

yea man hugs all round hehe!!

 

cheers

Ed

 

This revelation made me feel very uncomfortable, having been raised a Tantric Shaivite under the guidance of a devout mother. But, I opened up and gave the Buddhist perspective a chance, I told myself... "Your in this for the truth, not some really deep comfort zone". It literally took about 4 years of long and sometimes day long debates with various deeply and highly schooled Buddhists in order to finally have this thought too. I was not a cosmetic Hindu after all. I had studied all the texts and even the texts from Islamic, mystic Judaism, mystic and popular Christianity, Taoist texts, Wang Liping stuff... so much and more that just supported my Hindu view of all paths are one. I practiced deep and sincere meditation and was very, very devout to the path of higher Self discovery and had many, many experiences spoken about in various mystical literature and autobiographies.

 

After opening up to this very unique perspective of Buddhadharma...

 

I started having some direct experiences and having some leaps in intuitive information gathering. There was actually a land slide of inner experiences and revelations that shook me up very deeply. It wasn't very easy for me since my experiences of Shaivite and theistic logic from all major traditions and mystical sub-paths and that style of interpretation of spiritual experience was not merely cosmetic. In fact, my entire life fell apart and I'm still picking up the pieces. But, I can't help but know. Supposedly some Indian yogi's throughout history with deeply ingrained experience in Vedic traditions would immediately die upon hearing and understanding the Buddhadharma because their karma and subtle energy body couldn't take the shock of revelation, but they were said to have taken immediate rebirth in one Buddhist pureland or another. I for one believe this based upon first hand experience. Even the treatment of the subtle body energies is different in a way that's quite radical as the results are different and coming from an entirely different view of life. It's not easy letting go of deeply ingrained beliefs, especially if supported by deeper than body/brain experience.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Sahaj Nath]

I was here near the beginning too and went through the same reactions from the crowd. I remember posting a comment to you about it and you said something like don't dis Max because you were going to give it a try. I think that was you. Did you give it a try?

 

hm... that's probably not entirely accurate. pretty sure i only defended max AFTER i met him in-person and came out against him. kinda funny writing that out, but that's how it happened for me.

 

as for "did you give it a try," i made a post about it, which was met with... mixed reviews. LOL!

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/3829-max-and-the-sf-kunlun-workshop/

 

he really was this nicest guy, and for a month or two after the workshop i was still meditating on the transmission he'd passed me (which i would still argue that he HIMSELF didn't fully grasp), but all of my complaints were sincere. i wasn't just trying to take shots at him. i had some real issues with the guy, and that was mixed in with the confusion of "how could someone so inept and full of it transmit such a complex vibration? what am i missing?" so i defended him against muck-rakers, but stayed critical as i allowed the transmission to unfold within me. it was a confusing time for a little while there.

 

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the reason Santi won't crap on Max is because this forum is his marketplace, or one of them, and to do so makes one look bad, doesn't it? Also because he is willing to accept all comers, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

well, i was just shown a page ago that, in fact, Santi DID come out against Max's lies and irresponsibility, almost a year after i did. so it's not accurate to say he won't do what he's already done.

 

and, accepting all comers isn't necessarily a bad thing, either. anyone who teaches publicly kind of has to accept all comers. we got this thing call the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and it kind of mandates equal treatment. LOL! seriously though, you could say that about every public teacher. it's not really saying much of anything.

 

Santi's a good guy, and i will certainly have his back if wrongfully attacked. he is of far greater service to others than most of his critics, and that carries a lot of weight with me. what i spoke up about was all in love, and now that it's done, he, susan, and i can all go out and get a couple of beers.

[Silicon Valley]

I've read over the controversy over Kunlun since the beginning. I have had my doubts (which have greatly hindered progress), been to KAP, met Santiago, Max, and Jenny. Max and Jenny's humility speaks for itself.

 

I have not been here for a long time except to drop in to read Dwai or Mat Black or Taomeow. I don't even remember my email ID and stuff used here any more. But I re-registered for one reason. I was one of the biggest critics of Kunlun here, as I had some terrible experiences from it - or rather during it. After a lot of work, on my part and of my teacher, I now understand Kunlun had nothing to do with the entity trouble or whatever energy corrections I was going through. It was simply co-incidence. Since then, I have been back to Kunlun practice and RP and find them to be the only practice I find fit enough to spend time along with my main Tantra/Kriya practice. Max is good, max is evil, max is fun, max is cruel, and he is the most compassionate. But so was Krishna, the famous teacher of Sanatana Dharma (lol, not here for a debate with the Buddha crowd, which I still find is as active, aggressive and lacking skillful means as before). Avadhutas and Atimargins have always been eccentric and that does not diminish their wisdom or compassion. I have related to Max more on other levels than physical and find him to be highly enlightened, compassionate and genuine. I feel I owe him to say this especially because I was one of the earliest ones to criticize him (even before Hundun I guess ) but yes, my views about Max, his methodology and practice have since changed. At this point, after a lot of self-evaluation and evaluation of the practice itself, I find it most beneficial, powerful and safe when learnt and practiced with the Right View. Adding vipashyana to any energetic practice is, IMO, not only beneficial but necessary. I have done KAP as well, more for the sake of curiosity than anything else as I had my first awakening of Kundalini at 11 and wanted to see how better I could have dealt with Her if I had the KAP tools. Again, Max is on a different level and don't judge him by his book, his marketing team or what you hear of him. Try and connect to him through the practice.

 

I was told of my blog entries quoted on this thread by skyisthelimit (who I have no clue about lol) of which I was not aware but I need to agree that the word Shaktipat is incorrectly used in New Age gatherings. Shaktipat is neither possible or greatly beneficial when coming from someone not Enlightened. Just my two cents. God! watching your breath and the mind is so much more easier than figuring out which of the hundred seminars to take.

 

Compassion, insight and examining the mind cultivates Kundalini and whatever else, not the other way round. Nut it all depends on what one is seeking I guess? Not all are after enlightenment or even clarity!

 

And hi'n'hugs to all old friends: Rain, Xienkula, Mat, Scotty, Yoda... where is Taomeow lately? Write something lady! Your are awesome

 

And my Shaktipat thread is still active!

Edited June 22, 2010 by Silicon Valley

[C T]

The cycling is beginningless and endless. Things go from form to formless states in different universes at different times, some stay in form for longer and more blissful vibration permeates these universes and some others are more dense like this one, but it's all still related to the endless chain of causes and conditions without a primal origin. This is exactly what the Buddha taught that is different from all other traditions of planet Earth. There is no alpha or omega according to Buddhist cosmology.

 

Just a short expansion on the above:

 

"In Tibetan Buddhism, an important place has been given to the theories concerning the Alaya Vijnana. Alaya is a Sanskrit word which means dwelling, receptacle, and/or store. We meet it in the well-known name of the high mountain chain: the Himalayas, or receptacle of the snows. Alaya Vijnana is then akin to a receptacle of the consciousness.

 

The Alaya Vijnana, receptacle of consciousness, is not mentioned in Tibet in the outer, popular teachings of an elementary kind. We find it in the kind called nang, or 'inner' teachings, and in the sang wai damnags, teachings which are oral and secret.

 

What is said about this Alaya Vijnana?

 

Every action, either physical or mental, every movement occurring either on the plane of gross/dense matter or on the plane of the mind, causes an emission of energy (in Sanskrit this 'energy' is termed 'shakti'). To use the established expression, it produces a seed.

 

This seed, in the same way as all material seeds, tends - given favorable circumstances - to produce a 'being' (or formation) of the same species as that of the parent who transmits these seeds. The seed of an oak tree tends to produce another oak tree, the seed an animal, say a dog or a bird, tends to produce a dog or a bird.

 

Likewise, the innumerable energy-seeds launched into the universe by desire, aversion, love, hatred, and the actions CAUSED by these feelings, by attachment to individual existence with the material activity which it excites in order to preserve that individual existence in order to perpetuate it (an evolutionary paradigm), to increase its power and enlarge its sphere of action, all these seeds tend to produce the counterparts of their parents either psychic or material.

 

In order that the seed should be sown, it is no way necessary that the feelings we experience should be materialized in action. The mental aspirations which we entertain without realizing them, those also which we restrain, our thoughts of whatever kind they may be, unceasingly gives out seeds. Furthermore, the hidden activities, always at work in spite of ourselves, in the subconscious part of our being, is one of the most powerful sources from which are thrown out these seeds.

 

It is necessary to understand and grasp the full implications that there is not a blade of grass, not a grain of sand, which is not a 'sower' of seed by the activity of its mere physical presence and by that of a deeper, psychic lifespan, peculiar to its species, which we must in no way imagine to be similar to our own.

 

There cannot happen the least movement - in this world which is movement -without this movement starting other movements, other manifestations of energy tending to repetitions, in dependence of memories (vasana) or, as the Tibetans call them, pag chag, propensities. Each of our physical or mental movements is the fruit of causes coming from the whole universe and has its repercussions in the whole universe. Thus opens up the working, without beginning and end, of the activity which is the Universe.

 

According to one of the theories concerning the energy-seeds thrown out into the universe, these are stored up in a receptacle (alaya) where they remain in the state of latent energies which, in order to manifest themselves, only await the appearance of suitable conditions, just as the seed stored up in a barn will not develop until it is put in contact with other elements (damp earth, warmth etc).

 

Nevertheless, suitable conditions continually appear - thus while some seeds flow steadily into the receptacle, other seeds equally steadily flow out in the form of replicated habits, of propensities, of 'memories' - either of a physical or of a psychical kind which then encourages the repetition of material actions or mental activities which have previously occurred.

 

What are the 'conditions' which allow the germination of these seeds? They are themselves the product of seeds, for nothing exists outside the round of actions and their fruit, of the enchainment of causes and the effects, the cause being the effect of the preceding cause and the effects becoming the cause of another effect.

 

(According to the expression of certain Mahayanists, the Alaya is an 'uninterrupted river with a continuous current'. This analogy was purposely built in to further the understanding that this receptacle of consciousness, this abode of seeds, should in no way be seen as some immobile storehouse somewhere.)

 

This view of the Alaya Vijnana are based on the fundamental impermanence of all phenomena and on the fact that these same phenomena are compounded of various aggregates. The seeds, byproducts of mental activity which may or may not be associated with material activity, and which also include various other elements, cannot be considered permanent. Like all formations, they consist of successive, fugitive instants. Hence what sort of receptacle can one imagine which would contain in a waiting state, that is to say, in a state of repose, that which is elusive, having no appreciable duration?

 

In truth, there exists only the perpetual flow, both continuous (it never stops) and discontinuous (it also consists of distinct moments), of flashes of energetic force; causes and effects which engender each other in such a way that the parent-cause can never know its off-spring effect for it disappears while the latter emerges, or rather, it is its disappearance itself which constitutes its emergence: a new phenomenon.

 

Lending support to the theory of the Alaya Vijnana, Vasubandhu stated: The act ends immediately after being born, thus one cannot admit that it can itself produce the fruit, but it transmits to the root of consciousness (mula vijnana) virtualities, energies or seeds which will produce its fruit. These virtualities are called vasana, or 'memories'.

 

It is not enough to ponder this theory or read further philosophic expansions on it. It has to be seen by oneself, as a result of perspicacious insight, with penetrating and transcendent vision - only then can one see 'more' (Tib. Lhag thong) - to see beyond appearances and penetrate the illusory sheaths that veil the eyes."

 

(Source cannot be cited)

[Aetherous]

Hi Hi!

[Vajrahridaya]

 

It is not enough to ponder this theory or read further philosophic expansions on it. It has to be seen by oneself, as a result of perspicacious insight, with penetrating and transcendent vision - only then can one see 'more' (Tib. Lhag thong) - to see beyond appearances and penetrate the illusory sheaths that veil the eyes."

 

(Source cannot be cited)

 

The Alaya Vijnana is basically the self grasping tendency of an individual in a formless state of consciousness under ones awareness, generally experienced as the dark unconscious, deep dreamless sleep, which is all elements of a persons karma in a suppressed or unexpressed state of rest or stillness, either by force, fatigue or lack of conditions for arising the dormancy into production or manifestation. The Alaya is still a dependent phenomena, that is here due to beginningless self clinging of the individual Samsarin that is transformed into the Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya upon liberation as a Buddha by realizing the emptiness of all phenomena both from within and without in all other beings. The shining of one's mind experiences the Dharmakaya, which is the same for every Buddha as a sense of omnipresence. Thus the idea of cosmic consciousness, as it can feel this way and be interpreted this way... but to take this state up as a Self still leaves a subtle clinging and possibility of reproduction into Samsaric experience.

 

One can even say there is a universal Alaya-Vijnana that is because of the mass of beings clinging to a self that are responsible for the manifestation of a particular universe of Samsaric experience from high to low that arises based upon their tendencies left over from a previous universe that got stilled during the (pralaya) or big crunch.

 

Which is why the Alaya is said to be deeply subtle... both individual and universal, but it's still based upon Self clinging.

 

The Alaya-Vijnana theory in no way denotes a permanent self sustaining ultimate Self of the universe. Each mind streams' Alaya (storehouse) is separate and unique but also interconnected to one degree or another with other Alaya's, some more than others, thus generally your family and closest friends are the same from life to life, time and time again in different contexts as relatives and friends or bosses or whatever. When one's Alaya is transformed through the path of Buddhadharma, the realization of emptiness and omnipresence happens as a result on another dimension from the one that most people are aware of. It's radiance is a reflection of the flipping of one's energy of bondage to liberated energy expression as Sambhogakaya, ones body then becomes an instrument of service as Nirmanakaya as attachment to any arising as self or other is emptied fully and totally.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

OK, big lovefest here for Vajra. I'm obviously the only one who picks up an NPD. and yes, he is sincere, if inappropriate. Well, I'll just shut up and let it be all Vajra, All the Time. Don't say I didn't warn ya. But now that the Buddhists have allied with the KAPsters, we may not have anything else. oh, well...let the emoticons flow!

 

 

 

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the short list of Shaktipaters? ah, a portent of things to come...

Edited June 23, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[altiora]

 

 

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the short list of Shaktipaters? ah, a portent of things to come...

 

I agree that things have gone way off topic. I couldn't care less about the Tibetan buddhist discussion since it is not why I access this thread. What interests me in this thread is the discussion on shaktipat

It's a sheer pain to have to go through screeds upon screeds of "look at how impressively knowledgable I am about Tibetan buddhist esoteria" boffins to access the posts of those of us, rapidly diminishing of us as we are, who want to stick to the topic.

I just wonder if people could start another thread on this other topic, rather than hijack. Just a thought.

Edited June 23, 2010 by altiora

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I usually dont preach against tangents, but there is a limit to what tangents are still pertinent and what tangents are a completely separate topic.

 

 

If a tangent gets so far as to be a topic, start a new thread.

 

 

 

As for shakatipat, i have more learning to do yet and will remain lurking until i have more to say or inquire.

[Mal]

And hi'n'hugs to all old friends: Rain, Xienkula, Mat, Scotty, Yoda... where is Taomeow lately? Write something lady! Your are awesome

 

Mal ~ waves (Taomeow is on holidays)

 

Good to see you too

[Birch]

"Adding vipashyana to any energetic practice is, IMO, not only beneficial but necessary."

 

THIS!

 

 

Besides, it ends up somewheres there anyway so might as well do em both to begin with.

[dwai]

Just a short expansion on the above:

 

"In Tibetan Buddhism, an important place has been given to the theories concerning the Alaya Vijnana. Alaya is a Sanskrit word which means dwelling, receptacle, and/or store. We meet it in the well-known name of the high mountain chain: the Himalayas, or receptacle of the snows. Alaya Vijnana is then akin to a receptacle of the consciousness.

 

The Alaya Vijnana, receptacle of consciousness, is not mentioned in Tibet in the outer, popular teachings of an elementary kind. We find it in the kind called nang, or 'inner' teachings, and in the sang wai damnags, teachings which are oral and secret.

 

What is said about this Alaya Vijnana?

 

Every action, either physical or mental, every movement occurring either on the plane of gross/dense matter or on the plane of the mind, causes an emission of energy (in Sanskrit this 'energy' is termed 'shakti'). To use the established expression, it produces a seed.

 

This seed, in the same way as all material seeds, tends - given favorable circumstances - to produce a 'being' (or formation) of the same species as that of the parent who transmits these seeds. The seed of an oak tree tends to produce another oak tree, the seed an animal, say a dog or a bird, tends to produce a dog or a bird.

 

Likewise, the innumerable energy-seeds launched into the universe by desire, aversion, love, hatred, and the actions CAUSED by these feelings, by attachment to individual existence with the material activity which it excites in order to preserve that individual existence in order to perpetuate it (an evolutionary paradigm), to increase its power and enlarge its sphere of action, all these seeds tend to produce the counterparts of their parents either psychic or material.

 

In order that the seed should be sown, it is no way necessary that the feelings we experience should be materialized in action. The mental aspirations which we entertain without realizing them, those also which we restrain, our thoughts of whatever kind they may be, unceasingly gives out seeds. Furthermore, the hidden activities, always at work in spite of ourselves, in the subconscious part of our being, is one of the most powerful sources from which are thrown out these seeds.

 

It is necessary to understand and grasp the full implications that there is not a blade of grass, not a grain of sand, which is not a 'sower' of seed by the activity of its mere physical presence and by that of a deeper, psychic lifespan, peculiar to its species, which we must in no way imagine to be similar to our own.

 

There cannot happen the least movement - in this world which is movement -without this movement starting other movements, other manifestations of energy tending to repetitions, in dependence of memories (vasana) or, as the Tibetans call them, pag chag, propensities. Each of our physical or mental movements is the fruit of causes coming from the whole universe and has its repercussions in the whole universe. Thus opens up the working, without beginning and end, of the activity which is the Universe.

 

According to one of the theories concerning the energy-seeds thrown out into the universe, these are stored up in a receptacle (alaya) where they remain in the state of latent energies which, in order to manifest themselves, only await the appearance of suitable conditions, just as the seed stored up in a barn will not develop until it is put in contact with other elements (damp earth, warmth etc).

 

Nevertheless, suitable conditions continually appear - thus while some seeds flow steadily into the receptacle, other seeds equally steadily flow out in the form of replicated habits, of propensities, of 'memories' - either of a physical or of a psychical kind which then encourages the repetition of material actions or mental activities which have previously occurred.

 

What are the 'conditions' which allow the germination of these seeds? They are themselves the product of seeds, for nothing exists outside the round of actions and their fruit, of the enchainment of causes and the effects, the cause being the effect of the preceding cause and the effects becoming the cause of another effect.

 

(According to the expression of certain Mahayanists, the Alaya is an 'uninterrupted river with a continuous current'. This analogy was purposely built in to further the understanding that this receptacle of consciousness, this abode of seeds, should in no way be seen as some immobile storehouse somewhere.)

 

This view of the Alaya Vijnana are based on the fundamental impermanence of all phenomena and on the fact that these same phenomena are compounded of various aggregates. The seeds, byproducts of mental activity which may or may not be associated with material activity, and which also include various other elements, cannot be considered permanent. Like all formations, they consist of successive, fugitive instants. Hence what sort of receptacle can one imagine which would contain in a waiting state, that is to say, in a state of repose, that which is elusive, having no appreciable duration?

 

In truth, there exists only the perpetual flow, both continuous (it never stops) and discontinuous (it also consists of distinct moments), of flashes of energetic force; causes and effects which engender each other in such a way that the parent-cause can never know its off-spring effect for it disappears while the latter emerges, or rather, it is its disappearance itself which constitutes its emergence: a new phenomenon.

 

Lending support to the theory of the Alaya Vijnana, Vasubandhu stated: The act ends immediately after being born, thus one cannot admit that it can itself produce the fruit, but it transmits to the root of consciousness (mula vijnana) virtualities, energies or seeds which will produce its fruit. These virtualities are called vasana, or 'memories'.

 

It is not enough to ponder this theory or read further philosophic expansions on it. It has to be seen by oneself, as a result of perspicacious insight, with penetrating and transcendent vision - only then can one see 'more' (Tib. Lhag thong) - to see beyond appearances and penetrate the illusory sheaths that veil the eyes."

 

(Source cannot be cited)

 

Alaya Vijnana is an intellectual masturbation perpetrated upon hapless sheep to try and pretend there is no self...that's all there is to it. If infinite streams of consciousness (whatever that might mean) are interconnected, then they are one single pool of consciousness (just as an ocean can be differentiated into infinite streams of really salty water)...

[Sunya]

Alaya Vijnana is an intellectual masturbation perpetrated upon hapless sheep to try and pretend there is no self...that's all there is to it. If infinite streams of consciousness (whatever that might mean) are interconnected, then they are one single pool of consciousness (just as an ocean can be differentiated into infinite streams of really salty water)...

 

'Self' is an intellectual masturbation perpetrated upon hapless sheep to try and pretend that there is a self.

 

Infinite streams of consciousness are interconnected, indeed, but how does that lead to 'one single pool of consciousness'? I don't get the logic. Your metaphor comparing consciousness to an ocean begs the question. Why can't there just be dynamic everchanging waves without an underlying unchanging substance to tie them together? Why take the extra unnecessary step?

[Vajrahridaya]

Alaya Vijnana is an intellectual masturbation perpetrated upon hapless sheep to try and pretend there is no self...that's all there is to it. If infinite streams of consciousness (whatever that might mean) are interconnected, then they are one single pool of consciousness (just as an ocean can be differentiated into infinite streams of really salty water)...

 

There is that experience that you call a Self of all, but it's not really the self of all, it's just a karmic stilling so your awareness expands and fills space. There are different levels to this as well.

 

Why not take your idea up with the Buddha and read the suttas to begin with? I mean really read them and understand them without projecting hindu conditioning upon them. The Buddha never taught of a self outside of the realization of Buddhahood, not as a self of all, but merely as a realization of true purpose. You with your conditioning assume otherwise.

 

Either the Buddha is right or the Buddha is wrong. You can choose for yourself, but the fact remains, the Buddha doesn't agree with your statement. I agree with the Buddha.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

There is that experience that you call a Self of all, but it's not really the self of all, it's just a karmic stilling so your awareness expands and fills space. There are different levels to this as well.

 

Why not take your idea up with the Buddha and read the suttas to begin with? I mean really read them and understand them without projecting hindu conditioning upon them. The Buddha never taught of a self outside of the realization of Buddhahood, not as a self of all, but merely as a realization of true purpose. You with your conditioning assume otherwise.

 

Either the Buddha is right or the Buddha is wrong. You can choose for yourself, but the fact remains, the Buddha doesn't agree with your statement. I agree with the Buddha.

 

 

The way of the way is that there is no self yet the inherent self who observes this selfless reality.

 

There is no reality except the inherent reality of our unreality.

 

You are over intellectualizing thigns in verbal representations and not simply BEING of the way.

[Starjumper]

I glanced at the shaktipat link that Shaktimama posted, which is now lost in the dust, and I see I was incorrect about 'real' shaktipat so I appologize to Shaktimama. There are also various levels of wimpy shaktipat in addition to real shaktipat, and there's also the super duper deathtouch shaktipat, I think the one I got was second from the top, and like whatsisname said, one is enough.

[C T]

Alaya Vijnana is an intellectual masturbation perpetrated upon hapless sheep to try and pretend there is no self...that's all there is to it. If infinite streams of consciousness (whatever that might mean) are interconnected, then they are one single pool of consciousness (just as an ocean can be differentiated into infinite streams of really salty water)...

Actually its not really just intellectual 'self' masturbation Dwai. This is too simplistic a stand to take. Even if it is so, should someone be able to glean some 'moisturized' wisdom (as opposed to the dry, wtf kind, which is often rough, crackly and fragile) from this, and arrives at the realization that perhaps it does makes sense to be watchful and take responsibility not only for one's actions but for one's thoughts as well, for they both have consequences regardless of being aware of them or not, then the theory of AV would have served at least one purpose, and cannot then be declared a useless 'self-pleasuring toy'.

 

Maybe this realization would prompt others dazed from lifetimes of conditioned, presupposed, self-centered will to cease 'masturbating', to wake up and be counted. This could then incite them to practice some form of energy-saving 'retention' (like mindfulness meditation, for eg), and perhaps by doing so, could potentially even end up awakening their dormant energy centre. How bad is that? After all, if one can begin to see how habitual responses can be transformed through understanding why this very transformation is so crucial, and then cultivate the skills to bring about beneficial outcomes, it can be extremely empowering and can be a source of immense freedom and energy.

 

This post above on AV is the expression of one writer's personal understanding based upon her own investigations. It is neither right or wrong. A bit of flexibility and encompassing wisdom on your part would have shown that you are indeed set apart from those whom you deem to be fixated, inflexible and uncompromising.

 

 

You are of course free to say there is totally no wisdom in this theory at all, but please, be magnanimous enough to credit it the 'moisturizing' effect it at least contains - then this masturbatory act you declared would not be so devoid of meaning, and can be viewed as not without traces of dignity attached to it.