Shaktipat

[Sahaj Nath]

Just saw some posts about Gurumayi and Muktanada.And am curious about stories of sexual abuse within organization.There seems to be many women who were mistreated.A friend of mine has met one of those women who claims to be abused by Muktanada and still is emotionaly very scared.

There are often a lot of fakness/double standard within such organizations .

 

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=894&Itemid=11

So what is your opinions?

Would that bother you?

Do you belive it happend?

Surley they might have a lot of Spiritual Power,but is that sufficient?

Yes everyone is still learning whatever level ,but there are some basic very human laws one is not only supposed to obey but deeply understand and respect.

Swamis and stuff of organization dont deny allegations ,but say he was just" helping "the victims.

Abuse of women is a big NO in my universe and think it is important to spread some awarness about it.

Any comments?I am open to learning here...

 

nice!

 

i've been trying to get someone engage me on this matter, so i'm really glad you commented. please, PLEASE respond in any way you think is honest. i'll write more if necessary, but here is stuff i wrote both from this thread as well as from another one, to which NO ONE commented on. i think it's worthwhile discussion, but so far no one else seems to agree.

 

...

 

it wouldn't matter much to me if there actually was substance behind the claims, to be honest. but i happen to be in the amoralist camp, which seems to be in the minority around here. morality is always relative, subjective, selective. it's the small mind that thinks from the base of the mountain it can evaluate the motives and actions of those at the top. just like it's the small mind that chases after the 'shakti fix,' as the article puts it. but the real wisdom is there, just the same. that they choose the "new, better, more amazing, spiritual energy stuff" and can't necessarily even see the sublime and subtle wisdom is the folly of the seekers.

 

but it's perfectly fair to not trust such teachers or the lineages in which such teachers thrived. i say be afraid. be very afraid. it's a dangerous path. it truly is.

 

 

unless, that is, you can resonate with that teacher's frequency of wisdom, and not just the buzz from their energy. which is a question of both maturity and cognition.

 

i made a post about this kind of thing in the Shaktipat thread and even took the position of assuming that all the nefarious claims about Muktananda were true:

 

first, let me state what feels kinda obvious to me and seems at least a little bit implied in what you wrote above. the scriptures weren't written for the already enlightened, but rather for the unenlightened. the awakened don't need rule books (except for political purposes). WE do. kinda simple, but kinda true, too. also, the notion of "falling from grace," either as a result of, or as evidenced in, abhorrent behavior, is the same short-sighted understanding that seems evident in a lot of what you've written in this thread. it hints at a mindset of "a Guru must act this way and must be recognize by these people to be legit." i get the need for standards, but it's far from absolute and often gets abused. Muktananda just happened to get caught, but his behavior is far from unique. but i'm getting a little ahead of myself.

 

i think one of the reasons precepts and doctrines are SO important is because in time you reach a state of cognition that is literally beyond good and evil, and the HOPE is that with enough PRIOR training (cuz God knows you're not gonna learn it after the fact) you will tend towards the values that were instilled in you earlier. there have ALWAYS been masters who were considered to be "on the dark side." always. masters who have raped and killed wantonly. indiscriminately. just as the masters who shine like the sun and wantonly bestow blessings. ALL phenomenon is moved by the same hand. but we like to believe in our fairy tales of good against evil, or worse yet, of good OVER evil!

 

 

and so we tend to follow the "righteous" like lambs to the slaughter...

 

hm... maybe this is a little too "out there" for this community. well, i guess we'll see.

 

 

all phenomenon is the neverending unfolding of God's self TO Herself. rape and murder (for instance) are part of the natural order of things, and the fact that we find them disagreeable (and we SHOULD, as decent people) doesn't change that. so from where i stand, Muktananda's enlightenment is in NO WAY diminished by his transgressions. nor is Osho's. or the one who put Crazy Wisdom on the map, Chogyam Trungpa. such a mundane level of moral judgment is incapable of evaluating non-rational activity from a higher state of being, yet such judgment is still necessary for the order and well-being of ordinary people in everyday life...

 

let me state out-right that i don't believe all the claims to be true, but at the same time i don't even consider the controversy to be all that relevant. and please feel free to crucify me here if my stance disgusts any of you.

 

 

i couldn't receive Max (kunlun) as my teacher. not even close. but Mark i can receive. very effortlessly. and Mark's lineage i can receive. so clearly that it becomes invisible all over again! but many others cannot, i'm sure. who are just getting their fix, or who gave it a shot and didn't "get" anything out of it. and who are feeble enough to be victimized by their own foolishness. they are just lucky that it's Mark that they found, and not some other, more dubious character.

 

 

i walk my path as a lion, not a lamb. and the Siddha lineage suits me just fine.

 

 

for whatever it's worth.

[suninmyeyes]

Hundun,

All i wanted to do is to spread awarness of sexual abuse that might be happening within the cult.

I am not familiar with the organisation personally ,but am aware of similar stuff happening within similar organisations .

And its smelly.Being sexually very active is fine ,go get laid or pay for sex.But no it is not ok for those guys to just help themselves and stick it in to just anyone they feel like.Or for women to abuse man either.

And carry on just like that.

Also take the robes off.Im not into holy Guru holiness anyway.

You are mentioning some state of awarness -crazy wisdom.It is fine,it is possible ,im sure there are people with wisdom which is way beyond my comprihension..We are all attracted to different stuff .Personally i wouldnt want any person practising something to crazy on me.

Who is Mark and his lineage?

Anyway as you say you prefer to walk your path as a lion not a lamb,I prefer to grow as a flower.

[suninmyeyes]

.

Edited August 7, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[altiora]

Just saw some posts about Gurumayi and Muktanada.And am curious about stories of sexual abuse within organization.There seems to be many women who were mistreated.A friend of mine has met one of those women who claims to be abused by (Muktanada -edit:just remeberd that this was a Swami Rama not Muktananda story-apologies))d still is emotionally very scared.

There are often a lot of fakness/double standard within such organizations .

 

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=894&Itemid=11

So what is your opinions?

Would that bother you?

Do you belive it happend?

Surley they might have a lot of Spiritual Power,but is that sufficient?

Yes everyone is still learning whatever level ,but there are some basic very human laws one is not only supposed to obey but deeply understand and respect.

Swamis and stuff of organization dont deny allegations ,but say he was just" helping "the victims.

Abuse of women is a big NO in my universe and think it is important to spread some awarness about it.

Any comments?I am open to learning here...

 

No I don't believe it for one. Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? I think that brown, foreign, guys are entitled to it even when the alleged victims are white, American, women. There's also the point that one shouldn't defame the dead, since they cannot reply.

 

Ask yourself: why didn't they lay complaints with the police when he was alive?

 

Unfortunately, people just read these sites and believe them as gospel -- just because some people claim they've been sexually abused, then it must be so.

 

Sadly, it shows the degraded level of our civilization, when there seem to be more people willing to believe that someone is a sexual predator only because it's on a website somewhere.

 

I think you're correct: if someone has abused another person in this way, then they will suffer immediate degradation of their powers and realisation. It would seem to me that a person with the capacity to harm another human being, simply has not realised God. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have abilities that exceed ordinary human beings, but I think spiritually ripe people will know that a teacher has become degraded through abuse: that teacher will just be a ever shrinking cul de sac.

 

I'm not one of those who believes that a person can be so evolved that it wouldn't matter if they murdered etc, they would retain the God realisation. That line of argument was used by a lot of Japanese Zen practitioners to excuse violence.

 

The moral of the story (and one that several of us, including notably Dwai have in vain tried to communicate), there is nothing wrong with Gurus. What is wrong is people who do not test their so called Guru. people should wait wait years watching the Guru before they try to enter become their disciple. No genuine Guru will just accept some person who just wanders off the street and asks to be their disciple. They too will test the disciple to see if they're genuine.

 

Sadly, there have been many criminals who have expropriated the "guru", "swami", "lama" and "master" label. They preyed/prey on the stupid, gullible and naiive. That is wrong. They have severely tarnished the prestige attaching to those labels. I truly believe that they will suffer in this life and after death for their crimes.

 

But so too, I must admit I don't have much sympathy for many of their victims. Too often I read their stores -- and some of them are very sad -- and conclude that they were downright stupid. That doesn't excuse the crimes, but you do have to wonder what if these people used the brain God gave them, then perhaps they wouldn't have been victimised. After all, they voluntarily came to this relationship with this so called Guru.

 

I have a Guru, to whom I prostrate myself at His lotus feet; but if he ever did anything criminal against me, I'd be down at the Police station filing a complaint ASAP. That's how it should be.

Edited August 7, 2010 by altiora

[3bob]

Just saw some posts about Gurumayi and Muktanada.And am curious about stories of sexual abuse within organization.There seems to be many women who were mistreated.A friend of mine has met one of those women who claims to be abused by (Muktanada -edit:just remeberd that this was a Swami Rama not Muktananda story-apologies))d still is emotionally very scared.

There are often a lot of fakness/double standard within such organizations .

 

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=894&Itemid=11

So what is your opinions?

Would that bother you?

Do you belive it happend?

Surley they might have a lot of Spiritual Power,but is that sufficient?

Yes everyone is still learning whatever level ,but there are some basic very human laws one is not only supposed to obey but deeply understand and respect.

Swamis and stuff of organization dont deny allegations ,but say he was just" helping "the victims.

Abuse of women is a big NO in my universe and think it is important to spread some awarness about it.

Any comments?I am open to learning here...

 

A -swami- by ages old definition has taken very, very serious vows, one being no sexual involvement with women, period. There are all sorts of people who may be this or that type of (quasi) yogi but they are not Vedic related swamis in the traditional sense or meaning. There are many examples of spiritual sounding types that may have started out meaning well but who went bad or were turned through corrupt uses of power, so the answer is 100% no, power is not sufficient to be spiritual. As for naming names one really has to do their own research, although in some cases the evidence along such lines is so obvious with documented accounts given by multiple eye-witness's that it can't be glossed over or denied, thus becoming public knowledge. "Osho" is a name that falls under that category. (a.k.a. Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh in Oregon in the 1980's)

 

Btw, public knowledge is often soon forgotten.

 

Good fortune to you and may healing restore those taken advantage of.

 

Om

Edited August 7, 2010 by 3bob

[ShaktiMama]

 

 

Ask yourself: why didn't they lay complaints with the police when he was alive?

 

Unfortunately, people just read these sites and believe them as gospel -- just because some people claim they've been sexually abused, then it must be so.

 

 

 

Read up on the psychology of rape or the rape of children.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_Trauma_Syndrome

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

 

The raped often believe it was their fault or they deserve it. They are ashamed. Children and guillible adults trust those in authority over them. People are most often raped by the people they know and not who they don't know.

 

They may not be able to have the sense of outrage or strength that you might have if you were raped. How do you know how you would act if your guru raped you? Most people project God onto their guru. If God raped you how would you respond? Would you say God is perfect and this must be a part of his plan to bring me to enlightenment? You might not but plenty of followers do that. Excusing the guru because they know what's best for enlightenment.

 

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=guru+sex+abuse

 

In light of kundalini development there is a time when the desire for sex is absolutely overwhelming. There are ways to sublimate and transmute that urge without using and abusing other people including children.

 

People who are very talented and charismatic do have problems with their sexual appetites. Politicians and preachers are another example.

 

Its an age old problem. I had to learn to look for the diamonds in the mud.

 

s

[Vajrahridaya]

To what extent do you practise this?

 

What extent do I practice what? Siddha Yoga?

 

I grew up my entire life in the lineage of Swami Muktananda then Gurumayi and I got Shaktipat at Shree Muktananda Ashram in 89'. I lived in the Ashram from 95' to 99' and right near the one in Oakland off and on throughout many years as well, going to it every morning and night to do the practices there. I know and knew many wonderful people who lived at the Ashram for 30 or more years who saw it all and know what's what and who's who and know when people are pulling rabbits out of their hats and when people are just confused, or mistaken in their understanding. I read all the derogatory stuff and asked lots of questions about it because I wanted to know the truth and not be under any sort of false ideals about this path. I uncovered a lot. I'm satisfied.

 

Muktananda and Gurumayi deserve my utmost respect. I've experienced too much beauty through their writings and presence, both internally and externally to doubt their validity. I've seen too many people transformed for the better through their path as well, like night and day in the most miraculous ways to doubt the power of the path.

[suninmyeyes]

 

But so too, I must admit I don't have much sympathy for many of their victims. Too often I read their stores -- and some of them are very sad -- and conclude that they were downright stupid. That doesn't excuse the crimes, but you do have to wonder what if these people used the brain God gave them, then perhaps they wouldn't have been victimised. After all, they voluntarily came to this relationship with this so called Guru.

 

Greetings Altiora,

This and some other bit of the post sounds almost like a spiritual nazism .Think over it again.

Are you saying that only good spiritually ripe people deserve well being and for others who are more vulnerable with different emotional and psyhological needs(like those women) -well they can t take care of themselves anyway so for them its not so bad and actually they almost deserve it?Or?

Ever thought that some people can be emotionally instable or crippled or wounded or not as developed and it is not to be overlooked ,just becouse it is not such visable problem as for example a limb missing.

Just to make clear that I also have teacher i learn from,and am not trying to preach for or against Gurus-each to its own.

I wrote this to point out what could have taken place also still might be taking place (check out what i pasted they are mentioning other teacher within organization with abusive behaviour).And to inquire out of curiosity if that actually matters to anyone here or is it overlooked ,swept under the carpet or not belived in.

This things happen very, very often and I am aware about quite few personally.

Power is sweet.

Thank you for your answer

[suninmyeyes]

Read up on the psychology of rape or the rape of children.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_Trauma_Syndrome

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

 

The raped often believe it was their fault or they deserve it. They are ashamed. Children and guillible adults trust those in authority over them. People are most often raped by the people they know and not who they don't know.

 

They may not be able to have the sense of outrage or strength that you might have if you were raped. How do you know how you would act if your guru raped you? Most people project God onto their guru. If God raped you how would you respond? Would you say God is perfect and this must be a part of his plan to bring me to enlightenment? You might not but plenty of followers do that. Excusing the guru because they know what's best for enlightenment.

 

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=guru+sex+abuse

 

In light of kundalini development there is a time when the desire for sex is absolutely overwhelming. There are ways to sublimate and transmute that urge without using and abusing other people including children.

 

People who are very talented and charismatic do have problems with their sexual appetites. Politicians and preachers are another example.

 

Its an age old problem. I had to learn to look for the diamonds in the mud.

 

s

Shakti Mama,

I agree with you totally,well said.

[suninmyeyes]

To what extent do you practise this?

edit:i was wondering about the sentence i mentioned below,but i think i finally understood that it means you dont belive in those events taking place and therefore no need to react on it.

i think this was a bit of language barrier for me.so never mind this post.

Edited August 7, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[suninmyeyes]

Personally to me, the negativity doesn't make any sense outside of their own personal projection.

Here we go again this the sentence.

[suninmyeyes]

As for naming names one really has to do their own research...

 

Good point 3bob.

[Birch]

"Ever thought that some people can be emotionally instable or crippled or wounded or not as developed and it is not to be overlooked ,just becouse it is not such visable problem as for example a limb missing."

 

Exactly. May I also suggest that the poster who seems to hold contempt for the victims of sexual abuse might want to do a 180 and look at where that comes from? If you bother to read up on what actually happens to people when they are abused or violently attacked or even during an accident you may find out that the option to defend themselves doesn't necessarily exist. Of course, the ego may tell us otherwise. One of the simpler explanations for "bad things" happening is that one must be "bad" otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

 

If abuse is going on in any organisation, it needs to be routed out and stopped. Doesn't matter how valuable the teachings are.

[altiora]

"Ever thought that some people can be emotionally instable or crippled or wounded or not as developed and it is not to be overlooked ,just becouse it is not such visable problem as for example a limb missing."

 

Exactly. May I also suggest that the poster who seems to hold contempt for the victims of sexual abuse might want to do a 180 and look at where that comes from? If you bother to read up on what actually happens to people when they are abused or violently attacked or even during an accident you may find out that the option to defend themselves doesn't necessarily exist. Of course, the ego may tell us otherwise. One of the simpler explanations for "bad things" happening is that one must be "bad" otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

 

If abuse is going on in any organisation, it needs to be routed out and stopped. Doesn't matter how valuable the teachings are.

 

 

Firs things foremost, unlike Shakimama and you, and that other person calling me for indulging in "spiritual Nazism", I have worked in the criminal law as an advocate, and am fully aware of sexual abuse. I don't need to cite wiki for that (and wouldn't because I'd be laughed out of court). So with all due respect, just be careful who you lecture to.

 

The problem is that I also know, that sexual abuse allegations have been wrongly leveled against people, particularly during custody disputes to gain the children. The problem is that too many well meaning people think that just because someone says it's true. That's the issue I have here: how do we know what they say is true, when the person whom they accuse cannot respond? We can't.

 

And I noticed that none of you bothered to answer my question about the presumption of innocence. There are other values and they need to be balanced. And that's what some of us do for a living. It's not acceptable to accuse and then convict, and then not bother about the evidence.

 

You say:"If abuse is going on in any organisation, it needs to be routed out and stopped. Doesn't matter how valuable the teachings are."

 

That's my point too. Again, I have seen this in my own work: people who have been victimised who do not speak up and thereby let crimes continue. I have continually stressed that one needs to understand that it is one's duty to stop it by calling the police. That was my final point.

 

One final thing: please try to show some respect even if you disagree. Stating that someone is "showing contempt for sexual abuse victims" totally misrepresented the spirit of what I was saying. It is an accusation I regularly find labelled against people who ask for evidence before they adjudge another guilty. My impression is that you just don't want debate at all, and will do your best to shut it down by ad hominem and misrepresentation.

 

But as I say, I stand by my point: the crimes ARE NOT excusable; but we as society need to start emphasising to adults that they must take care of their own well being and use their brains, and that if something criminal happens they "MUST" complain to the police -- as quickly as possible, not on some website after the alleged perpetrator has died. That's to ensure criminal activity is stopped, and it is also to ensure that the accused gets a fair hearing.

[Birch]

"just be careful who you lecture to."

 

Thanks. I should have asked you directly "It seems like you have contempt for the victims, do you?"

 

I'm not sure what you meant by the rest of your post regarding my stance or comparing me/putting me in the same category with anyone else. You can explain if you want, you don't have to. My apologies for any offense caused. I'm just really really angry when I hear of people being abused by "authorities" whoever they are and I guess I showed that here.

[altiora]

"just be careful who you lecture to."

 

Thanks. I should have asked you directly "It seems like you have contempt for the victims, do you?"

 

I'm not sure what you meant by the rest of your post regarding my stance or comparing me/putting me in the same category with anyone else. You can explain if you want, you don't have to. My apologies for any offense caused. I'm just really really angry when I hear of people being abused by "authorities" whoever they are and I guess I showed that here.

 

No problems. It was addressed to more than one person. Yes it's an highly emotive topic, and yes apologies my temper flared as well. My problem is that I have seen genuine abusers get away with it so long and repeat and repeat their crimes. It makes me frustrated that it would have only taken one of his or her victims to come forward and many other peoples' lives would have been spared the trauma and indignity. There is much difficulty and shame coming forward. We have come light years from where we were decades ago in recognizing that. And in no sense were I suggesting that it is the victim's fault. My problem now is that we're too much emphasising to adults that "it's OK if you wait a decade or more before you complain". We need to stress that it is peoples' responsibility to speak out to stop it happening again. The only way this sort of criminal activity can be stopped is if the victim's come forward ASAP when the evidence is still about.

 

But so too, I am greatly concerned at the risk of false accusations and wrongful convictions, arising from the fact that the alleged events happened decades and decades ago.

Edited August 8, 2010 by altiora

[ShaktiMama]

Firs things foremost, unlike Shakimama and you, and that other person calling me for indulging in "spiritual Nazism", I have worked in the criminal law as an advocate, and am fully aware of sexual abuse. I don't need to cite wiki for that (and wouldn't because I'd be laughed out of court). So with all due respect, just be careful who you lecture to.

 

 

 

First things foremost, I unlike you, in my day job, Clark Kent persona, am a registered nurse and case manager who has worked in psychiatric care and with sexual abuse of both children and adults.

 

Also these Wikipedia articles are copiously footnoted if you have reviewed them. It's a time saver. Most people don't have the job experience and training to plow thru mental health and law journals or other sources if I were to reference them.

 

I wasnt lecturing. I was sharing what I know based on my own experiences of being a nurse since the late 1980s and teaching in metaphysical, spiritual circles since 1992.

 

And yes, like Kate, to me it felt like you came off as being contemptuous of the victims and showing lack of understanding.

 

Sexual abuse under the guise of spiritual leadership is horrible. I once had a woman come to tell me how her well known guru came to her and wanted to teach her tantric sex for her own personal enlightenment because she was a favorite of his. He couldn't make their relationship public because he had taken a vow of celibacy. But because of her beauty and high spiriutal attainment he would take her into his own personal inner circle for teaching even if it meant breaking his sacred vows.

 

Of course, she was shattered when he lost interest in her as an intimate partner.

 

I have had my own share of spritual douchebags whom over the years want the fast track to kundalini awakening by sleeping with me.

 

That is an old line given in the spiritual seeker dating marketplace.

"You are such a goddess. I would worship you and we can become enlightened together if we become tantric lovers."You find a lot of these guys hanging out at tantric seminars.

 

It's a variation on a line I heard in BIble College. "I had a dream and God told me we were supposed to get married."

 

Douchebags.

 

s

[ShaktiMama]

[altiora]

 

 

In the April entry this Swami made his followers sign a non disclosure clause which conveniently addressed tantric type relationships:

 

One clause of the agreement, accessed by TOI, states: “Volunteer understands that the Program may involve the learning and practice of ancient tantric secrets associated with male and female ecstasy, including the use of sexual energy for increased intimacy/spiritual connection, pleasure, harmony and freedom. Volunteer understands that these activities could be physically and mentally challenging, and may involve nudity, access to visual images, graphic visual depictions, and descriptions of nudity and sexual activity, close physical proximity and intimacy, verbal and written descriptions and audio sounds of a sexually oriented, and erotic nature, etc."

 

It further says: "By reading and signing this addendum, Volunteer irrevocably acknowledges that he/she is voluntarily giving his unconditional acceptance of such activities and discharges the Leader and the Foundation, and anyone else not specifically mentioned here but directly or indirectly involved in the organization, management or conduct of any such programs from any liability, direct or indirect, arising from such activities."

 

 

I agree with the lack of accountability with many religious organisations.

 

Assuming those clauses are correct (I'm not judging just that I know that Swami has a lot of enemies in India who would use foul deeds to bring him low), those clauses reinforce my point about people using their brains: if someone tried to get me to sign that, I'd smell a rat and call the Police or media. I've got to ask then, why people didn't do so.

 

I stress this doesn't excuse criminal offending, not one bit. But it is case of caveat emptor here: let the buyer beware before they get involved with these outfits voluntarily. Of course, it would be different if it were a Fort Waco style compound, or children born into these outfits.

 

The big question to me, and I think more fruitful to stopping this offending, is to ask just why do people, for instance, sign those clauses? Why don't we have fully autonomous people who can say "no, this is not acceptable"? I think that if people were to enquire into that meaningfully, they might uncover some uncomfortable truths about people and society. I think the real danger is simply saying "because X is a power crazed monster" is often too simplistic and convenient an explanation.

Edited August 8, 2010 by altiora

[Sahaj Nath]

um...

 

what's wrong with that disclosure clause? what am i missing? it's like first, they're bad people for performing sex acts; then, they are bad people for putting it out there, up front, and attempting to shield themselves from litigation? what should they do then? just put out some FYI brochures about all of their practices and hand them out openly, and then just cross their fingers and hope it goes over well with the public?

 

to me, this isn't unlike a recent conversation shaktimama and i were in, probably in this same thread. to make all of these schools and practices politically correct would be to destroy many of the highest teachings, and that's just not acceptable. the fact of the matter is that many of the complaints against true Gurus and true teachings have been made by people who just shouldn't have been involved at that level; i.e., it wasn't that the practice was abusive, but rather that the fragile or unstable constitution of the participant wasn't a good fit. why is a mandatory non-disclosure clause NOT a good solution, when it states up-front what you're signing up for?

 

and the fact that, yet again, no one really addressed my position on the previous page, leads me to assume that i must be carrying the mantle of "spiritual nazi" at this point, and that's fine. i know that real abuses do happen. but so often it's buyer's remorse that's going on, and the conventional standards of the dominant culture cannot properly evaluate which is which. it ALWAYS demonizes the smaller group as evil, corrupt, and the the dreaded C-word gets thrown around.

 

the serious stuff isn't for everybody, and it never has been. but there seems to be some implied assumption that everything spiritual should be safe for everyone. that's just not true. sometimes, getting whacked with a stick from the master is a beautiful thing, but that type of practice is NEVER going to play well in the mainstream.

 

EDIT:

 

not that i should have to state this, but a friend just advised me to clarify that i understand that there are certain things that shouldn't happen. like child molestation, that's NEVER acceptable. real, forcible rape, NEVER acceptable. i would hope people would give me enough credit to not assume i would bury these types of abuses under some notion of religious freedom. i wouldn't. i just don't see enough of anyone taking the other side in this issue. the more difficult side to articulate and defend. and i'm doing my best to try to get everyone to think just a little bit deeper and not just at the level of "rape is bad. therefore those people/groups are bad." there's just more to consider than that. at times it can be a long and tricky process to arrive at the truth of the matter.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Hundun

[suninmyeyes]

Firs things foremost, unlike Shakimama and you, and that other person calling me for indulging in "spiritual Nazism"...

Hi ,

here is this other person,and maybe youve misread me but Ive said that it "it almost sounds like "spiritual nazism" not indulging-(as i belive we are all so different and one cannot say how one should behave/respond in certain situation although it may be the best ,most logical suggestion around ) and than called you to think over and explain yourself again about paragraph highlighted.

I wrote this to show that i wanted to provoke you to think in different light not to lecture.Or cause upset.

Just clarifying myself and pointing out again(not to you only but in general) the need to understand the psychology of shock ,abuse or accident.

I am happy all this discussion came out as there have been many good things written and pointed out.

Edited August 8, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[Sahaj Nath]

I'm not one of those who believes that a person can be so evolved that it wouldn't matter if they murdered etc, they would retain the God realisation. That line of argument was used by a lot of Japanese Zen practitioners to excuse violence.

 

okay,

 

but what's your argument or analysis for why those Japanese Zen practitioners were incorrect? is it just that you don't believe it, or is there a process of reason that you could share, because it's something that i might not yet have considered.

[ShaktiMama]

I agree with the lack of accountability with many religious organisations.

 

Assuming those clauses are correct (I'm not judging just that I know that Swami has a lot of enemies in India who would use foul deeds to bring him low), those clauses reinforce my point about people using their brains: if someone tried to get me to sign that, I'd smell a rat and call the Police or media. I've got to ask then, why people didn't do so.

 

I stress this doesn't excuse criminal offending, not one bit. But it is case of caveat emptor here: let the buyer beware before they get involved with these outfits voluntarily. Of course, it would be different if it were a Fort Waco style compound, or children born into these outfits.

 

The big question to me, and I think more fruitful to stopping this offending, is to ask just why do people, for instance, sign those clauses? Why don't we have fully autonomous people who can say "no, this is not acceptable"? I think that if people were to enquire into that meaningfully, they might uncover some uncomfortable truths about people and society. I think the real danger is simply saying "because X is a power crazed monster" is often too simplistic and convenient an explanation.

 

I think this Swami is bringing himself low. It looks like the legal system is working to stop him.

 

http://www.ndtv.com/news/cities/sex-swami-nithyananda-arrested-in-himachal-20548.php

http://www.ndtv.com/news/cities/swamis-in-scandals-what-keeps-the-faith-18387.php

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=Paramahamsa+Nityananda+Swami++abuse&aq=f&aqi=m1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

Not everyone is as smart or as aware as you. No one has the same life experiences or training as you.

 

People make stupid, uninformed and informed choices every day. The hospitals are full of them. People do what they do because they do. Everyone does things for different reasons. In hospitals they sign consent forms they shouldn't but they do because they want something so bad they are willing to agree to terms in a consent form. Sometimes they think they have no choice but they have to sign.

 

We can't make people make decisions that we think are smart. We can't live their lives for them. We can't be their mothers. We can hope that people would use meaningfull inquiry but many don't. Laws are made to protect people from their stupid decisions. Laws are made because there are bad people who take advantage of the helpless, the uniformed, or the stupid.

 

s

[3bob]

a different line but I believe related:

 

Genesis 4,

 

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

 

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

.

.

Edited August 8, 2010 by 3bob