Thread about Nothing

[ralis]

Ralis,

 

Where have you read that Samaya vows are absolute? When I studied the vajrayana the teaching on the 14 Root Downfalls was that far from being absolute they can be 'repaired' by confession and also renewed by retaking them. In actual fact they were far from being absolute but were a way of safeguarding the relationship with the Lama within which the sadhana was supposed to work.

 

The teachings say that if one keeps one's vows and therefore becomes enlightened, one will enter the absolute Buddha realms. My understanding is that the actual vows and teachings come from these absolute realms.

[Apech]

The teachings say that if one keeps one's vows and therefore becomes enlightened, one will enter the absolute Buddha realms. My understanding is that the actual vows and teachings come from these absolute realms.

 

 

Is this the vinaya vows and not the samaya vows?

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[ralis]

Has anyone here taken the vows?

 

If not, don't worry about it

 

I took them along time ago, then I was shown that non dual awareness is the natural state. That removed my concern over vows. However, I don't think I ever took them very seriously.

 

ralis

[gendao]

The above account is the light body achieved at "death". There is no death of course, the practitioners become immortal albeit invisible.

 

The other type is the one achieved before death, called the rainbow body of Great Transfer.

 

The "choice" presents itself after the four visions are complete.

Cool, what book is that from?

 

And what are the 4 visions?

I took them along time ago, then I was shown that non dual awareness is the natural state. That removed my concern over vows. However, I don't think I ever took them very seriously.

 

ralis

I took some in past lives...that became hidden blocks in this one. So, I think I'm through with *^#&'n vows! I'd rather just stay fluid with the Tao than set up hard, blind parameters in advance for myself.

 

However, I think for those with the commitment and discipline to take Bodhisattva vows, it can also certainly benefit their own cultivation and others...

[Pero]

Well according to Tibetan Buddhism vows end at death, they don't transfer to next life. Though there is negative karma if you were breaking them. Hence you aren't fucked by your vows from past life but by you breaking them in your past life.

 

 

Well according to Tibetan Buddhism vows end at death, they don't transfer to next life. Though there is negative karma if you were breaking them. Hence you aren't fucked by your vows from past life but by you breaking them in your past life.

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Apech]

These are the refuge vows:

 

1. To refrain from taking life.

2. To refrain from taking that which is not freely given (stealing).

3. To refrain from sexual misconduct (improper sexual behavior).

4. To refrain from lying and deceiving.

5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness.

 

not everyone takes 3 and 5 but everyone takes the others.

 

Monks on the other hand have a longer set of vows. If a monk breaks his vows there is no going back. But other vows can be renewed.

 

In addition there are the

 

Bodhisattva vows

 

Bodhisattva vows

 

and the

 

Tantric vows - samaya vows.

 

Root tantric pledges

 

Vows do not apply to just one lifetime as the following explains:

 

"The promise to keep bodhisattva vows applies not only to this life, but also to each subsequent lifetime until enlightenment. Thus, as subtle forms, these vows continue on our mental continuums into future lives. If we have taken the vows in a previous lifetime, we do not lose them by unknowingly committing a full transgression now, unless we have taken them freshly during our current life. Retaking the vows for the first time in this life strengthens the momentum of our efforts toward enlightenment that has been growing ever since our first taking of them. Therefore, Mahayana masters emphasize the importance of dying with the bodhisattva vows intact and strong. Their abiding presence on our mental continuums continues building up positive force (merit) in future lives, even before we revitalize them by taking them again."

[Pero]

Vows do not apply to just one lifetime as the following explains:

 

"The promise to keep bodhisattva vows applies not only to this life, but also to each subsequent lifetime until enlightenment. Thus, as subtle forms, these vows continue on our mental continuums into future lives. If we have taken the vows in a previous lifetime, we do not lose them by unknowingly committing a full transgression now, unless we have taken them freshly during our current life. Retaking the vows for the first time in this life strengthens the momentum of our efforts toward enlightenment that has been growing ever since our first taking of them. Therefore, Mahayana masters emphasize the importance of dying with the bodhisattva vows intact and strong. Their abiding presence on our mental continuums continues building up positive force (merit) in future lives, even before we revitalize them by taking them again."

 

So, in other words, they don't continue in next lives without retaking them.

[Apech]

So, in other words, they don't continue in next lives without retaking them.

 

 

"Thus, as subtle forms, these vows continue on our mental continuums into future lives"

[Pero]

Which basically means that you create positive karma by taking/keeping vows which then continues. But the vows themselves don't continue.

If it were so, there would be many many vow/samaya breakers, and if by any chance they don't practice Mahayana and/or Vajrayana in that life they inevitably will fall into the hell realms in their next life. And if these things continued there would be no need for renewal or for receiving empowerment again.

[Apech]

Which basically means that you create positive karma by taking/keeping vows which then continues. But the vows themselves don't continue.

If it were so, there would be many many vow/samaya breakers, and if by any chance they don't practice Mahayana and/or Vajrayana in that life they inevitably will fall into the hell realms in their next life. And if these things continued there would be no need for renewal or for receiving empowerment again.

 

 

Yep see what you mean.

[gendao]

So, in other words, they don't continue in next lives without retaking them.

Nope - it only says that "Retaking the vows for the first time in this life strengthens the momentum."

 

But, the momentum still lasts on its own, to begin with...

 

And that's been my experience. For example, if you take a vow of poverty, in your next lives you may find it hard to make money. If you take a vow of celibacy, you may find blocks in your sexual chakra. Etc, etc. I believe strong intentions are just like strong emotions over unresolved issues - they create "karmic baggage" that you tend to carry on with you.

 

So in my experience, I'd be careful of what you vow. And it's not so much that you'd get "bad karma" if you break them, but they could form hidden hindrances and blocks to you in your next lives - and you'll be lucky if you ever uncover why then.

 

 

Of course, I have also heard that taking refuge in Buddha with vows can also accelerate your cultivation, so there may be a trade-off here. BUT, maybe you could add some "fine print" to your vow that they expire after this lifetime, lol.

[Apech]

Nope - it only says that "Retaking the vows for the first time in this life strengthens the momentum."

 

But, the momentum still lasts on its own, to begin with...

 

And that's been my experience. For example, if you take a vow of poverty, in your next lives you may find it hard to make money. If you take a vow of celibacy, you may find blocks in your sexual chakra. Etc, etc. I believe strong intentions are just like strong emotions over unresolved issues - they create "karmic baggage" that you tend to carry on with you.

 

So in my experience, I'd be careful of what you vow. And it's not so much that you'd get "bad karma" if you break them, but they could form hidden hindrances and blocks to you in your next lives - and you'll be lucky if you ever uncover why then.

Of course, I have also heard that taking refuge in Buddha with vows can also accelerate your cultivation, so there may be a trade-off here. BUT, maybe you could add some "fine print" to your vow that they expire after this lifetime, lol.

 

 

With respect the issue is attachment and clinging and not the vows as such. For instance if you take a vow of poverty in one life and practice generosity in giving away your possessions then you will be more likely to generate wealth (in the sense of having all you need to practice dharma) in a future life. If you read Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation you will see that the result is called a life of 'leisure and endowment' - meaning you are not trammeled by lack of time or lack of resources which prevents you practicing. However if you still act with greed because the vow was insincere then you will create the karmic seeds of this act. Similarly if you avoid sexual misconduct then your sexual centres will be purified.

 

Also the layman vows and samaya vows do not include either poverty or chastity (see above).

[gendao]

With respect the issue is attachment and clinging and not the vows as such. For instance if you take a vow of poverty in one life and practice generosity in giving away your possessions then you will be more likely to generate wealth (in the sense of having all you need to practice dharma) in a future life. If you read Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation you will see that the result is called a life of 'leisure and endowment' - meaning you are not trammeled by lack of time or lack of resources which prevents you practicing. However if you still act with greed because the vow was insincere then you will create the karmic seeds of this act. Similarly if you avoid sexual misconduct then your sexual centres will be purified.

 

Also the layman vows and samaya vows do not include either poverty or chastity (see above).

Aren't all vows attachment and clinging by definition?

 

Just because you cling to poverty instead of wealth doesn't change the fact that you're still clinging.

 

Remember, Buddha had to let go of his attachment to asceticism (and in reality, polar duality), before he achieved Enlightenment. He realized that neither poverty or wealth had anything to do with full realization.

 

I think people often tend to confuse letting go of the attachment of wealth with creating another attachment to poverty.

 

Besides, does anyone ever really need to take a vow for poverty? As if you have to make a dedicated effort to stop all that money from just rolling in your door...how many people really have that "problem," lol.

 

Anyhow, that's just my own opinion and experience. Everyone else should judge for themselves based on theirs.

Edited December 10, 2008 by vortex

[Apech]

Aren't all vows attachment and clinging by definition?

 

Just because you cling to poverty instead of wealth doesn't change the fact that you're still clinging.

 

Remember, Buddha had to let go of his attachment to asceticism (and in reality, polar duality), before he achieved Enlightenment. He realized that poverty nor wealth had anything to do with full realization.

 

I think people often tend to confuse letting go of the attachment of wealth with creating another attachment to poverty.

 

Besides, does anyone ever really need to take a vow for poverty? As if you have to make a dedicated effort to stop all that money from just rolling in your door...how many people really have that "problem," lol.

 

Anyhow, that's just my own opinion and experience. Everyone else should judge for themselves based on theirs.

 

I think I agree that in a lot of cases taking vows is a form of clinging. But also if you say for instance that it is a natural outcome of buddha-nature to be generous. That although I have not realized buddha-nature I will try to reflect it by being generous and my way of doing this is to accept poverty - then it is a positive thing. But of course being generous really means being non-attached as a giver to the gift, the act of giving and the receiver. Its a form of letting go and not really about a vow as such.

[Pero]

Nope - it only says that "Retaking the vows for the first time in this life strengthens the momentum."

 

But, the momentum still lasts on its own, to begin with...

 

The momentum is not the vow.

[ralis]

This is an excellent discussion! Very interesting how a system of beliefs has so many contradictions. Asking one to be attached to a certain moral code, while asking to not be attached to anything. Direct contradiction to the 4 noble truths.

 

I read in "The Torch of Certainty" that if one had sex within 50 ft. of a Lama one would wind up in some hell realm. Sounds like something from the dark ages.

 

ralis

[ralis]

Why do we take all of this so seriously? Whether it is of vows or some other belief system misses the point. No belief system or language can adequately describe or quantify the universe. Therefore one religion or belief system(BS) is as good as any other. You can pay Mak Tin Si to make you a taoist fo 90.00 or burn incense for you for 10.00 a month. How about becoming a subgenius minister for 29.95. On the subgenius site one can buy pope cards and immediately become a pope. LOL!

 

ralis

[Apech]

This is an excellent discussion! Very interesting how a system of beliefs has so many contradictions. Asking one to be attached to a certain moral code, while asking to not be attached to anything. Direct contradiction to the 4 noble truths.

 

I read in "The Torch of Certainty" that if one had sex within 50 ft. of a Lama one would wind up in some hell realm. Sounds like something from the dark ages.

 

ralis

In a way it is something from the dark ages - a lot of these things were formulated in the Middle Ages with a feudal mind set. The rules of sexual misconduct are the hardest to swallow (if you'll excuse the expression ). Usually they are modernised to say 'don't do sexual harm'. But who made that rule?

 

I agree completely with the issue of cultural baggage which comes with learning anything imported from another culture. People get confused and think they have to wear strange clothes, follow strange customs or do odd things - and think that's spirituality when its actually a kind of make believe - mostly harmless I suppose but mainly daft. The saving grace with Buddhism is that most of it is skillful means and not an absolute. I shall have to read Torch of Certainty again so I can avoid shagging in Lama-range - perhaps you can buy some kind of warning device on Ebay.

Edited December 10, 2008 by apepch7

[rex]

Edited December 11, 2008 by rex

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

And of course you consider yourself superior.

[RongzomFan]

-------

Edited February 1, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Pero]

wow

 

What? It's obvious that you consider yourself superior, otherwise you wouldn't be just learning this from a book, you wouldn't be saying that you can do this without a teacher, you wouldn't go around speaking about secret practices and you wouldn't be giving your "insights" into these practices.

 

maybe you should monitor your own mindstream

 

You're right here, I really should.