Thread about Nothing

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

Can we agree that the present moment is the key point in trekchod view?

 

No.

 

I am reading an academic translation of Jigme Lingpa, and regarding trekchod, he is going on and on about the present moment. I would not bring up Eckhart Tolle at all if I was talking to Buddists. I only bring it up, for something people can relate to.

 

Translations are not necessarily correct. Also even if a translation is correct, it doesn't mean you can correctly understand what it is saying without a teacher explaining it to you. Although then you could argue if you can even translate something correctly if you don't have correct understanding of the meaning of what it is saying... The old translators were very good practitioners themselves.

Frankly, giving Tolle as something people could relate to, is like if I know what an apple is and you don't, but you know what a rasin is, and I would tell you, oh the apple is a rasin.

 

 

Yes, and Jigme Lingpa makes a point about it.

 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't just say there's no such thing as good and bad thoughts, which is what you said.

 

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour." - Padmasambhava

 

Many people (like Jax) forget or just conviniently disregard that.

[Pero]

Oh and one last thing. It's just wrong to tell someone to "use" his lama to get anything.

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

I could get you a quote from Sam van Shaik's book, but you do not trust translations. (And I always have agreed on the unreliability of translation.)

 

Well, it's not so much that I don't trust translations I guess, after all, I do read them.

But the thing is that the translators from Tibetan don't really have a common way of translating (don't know how to put it otherwise). One translator translates a sentence or word one way and a second translator another way. And then you read both, and they seem totally different (although it can be if you understand a little, that both have the same meaning for you, just conveyed differently). Since my knowledge of Tibetan is basically non-existant, it's impossible to say which is correct or better. And then you can just go by feeling, especially if you don't have much knowledge of the teaching like myself. But it's still good to read.

I haven't seen any of Sam van Shaik's books, so I don't know how he's translating. But in any case, if it's not too much for you, please post it, now you've got me curious.

 

What is your point exactly? Do you believe there is a dichotmoy between "good" and "bad" thoughts...and that one should avoid "bad" thoughts?

 

Ha, you aren't related to Patrick Brown by any chance?

Ok so, to repeat myself, if someone would try to stab you, would you just wait for him to do it? I imagine not. But why? If you think there is no dichotomy of good (not stabbed) and bad (stabbed)?

So of course one should also try to avoid bad thoughts, and create positive ones. That is basic, and Jigmed Lingpa's Longchen Nyingthig contains ngondro (prostrations, refuge, purification, mind trainings, stuff like that). If what's in your mind wasn't important, that wouldn't be there. We shouldn't consider ourself like we are realized and not care about good and bad. That is the path to the dark side.

 

I guess my favourite quote the past few days, Padmasambhava said something like: "Though my view is as high as the sky, my attention to cause and and effect of karma is as fine as flour."

If the view comes too close to the conduct, we can become like demons. (maybe he said this also)

For sure, our thoughts are part of our conduct. And Jigmed Lingpa would not contradict that I am sure. If it seems so, it's because you misunderstood. Always it's important to remember the context of what is being said....

 

 

Maybe it is just how YOU are reading into my words.

 

Possible. If so, I apologize. Recent events have made me more suspicious than ever, and I'm almost totally convinced now that discussing these things too much in more public ways brings misfortune eventually.

[RongzomFan]

----

Edited February 1, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Apech]

This is just 100% wrong. If you see a dichotomy between good and bad thoughts, this is the origin of samsara. All thoughts are merely just "winds" in the body, with no inherent property. All thoughts are empty of essence (as is everything) and are 'freed through self-liberation'

 

One out of many quotes from Sam van Schaik's book on this topic...I am going to give a give a selection which is part van Schaik's commentary and part primary source.

 

page 73

 

"The identification of thoughts as either good or bad is seen as a barrier to the process of meditation earlier in which all thoughts, whatever their nature, are liberated as they arise (shar grol). This is stated in DTK:

 

Not falling into extremes of

Good. bad, or neutral discursive thought

 

....

(it goes on and on about this subject)

This has nothing to do with actions, and you are making it into actions.

 

This is about not censoring the minds activity. In Mahamudra and Dzogchen meditation thoughts and feelings and so on are allowed to arise and fall in the mind naturally without any attempt to control. So there is no distinguishing between thoughts which are positive (i.e. which reflect bodhicitta) and those which usually would be considered harmful or bad. Letting go of the thought and its origin is part of this - so that the nature of the mind and the nature of thoughts can be realised.

 

This is not the same as saying all thoughts are equivalent as a Buddhist would hold that negative thoughts generate unhelpful karma. This meditation goes beyond nirvana/samara duality. The basis of samara is the desire generated grasping at form and not the labeling of thoughts as good or bad as you suggest.

[Pero]

This is just 100% wrong.

 

Such a shame. All these poor old masters, practiced virtue, mind trainings, purification, Bodhicitta etc. for nothing. It's too bad you weren't there to tell them that thoughts don't matter, they could've saved so much time on their way to enlightenment.

 

All thoughts are merely just "winds" in the body, with no inherent property. All thoughts are empty of essence (as is everything) and are 'freed through self-liberation'

 

Remember that when you'll be lying in the gutter with a stab wound in your abdomen.

 

Farewell.

[Pero]

There is something I forgot to say. I want to say thank you for your lessons.

[Magda]

Remember that when you'll be lying in the gutter with a stab wound in your abdomen.

Not that it was said for me, but I'd like to point out that this got explained by alwayson already:

This has nothing to do with actions, and you are making it into actions.

And this is true... Why would you have to feel hate or anger in order to defend your life?

Edited January 17, 2009 by Magda

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

 

Remember that when you'll be lying in the gutter with a stab wound in your abdomen.

 

Farewell.

 

 

By the way, are you threatening me?

[Apech]

Thank you Magda,

 

Some people just don't understand action versus the mental sphere. And he brings up action (prostrations etc.) again! When did I ever say you cannot do prostrations etc.?

What does action have to do with anything I am saying?

 

This is the EXACT reason, why Dzogchen is the highest teaching, and not wasted on people who do not understand. That is why Buddhism has about 9 levels of understanding.

A quote from the SN...

 

"You are not chained by the benefit of good thoughts, harmed by the evil of bad thoughts...."

 

as long as thoughts are 'self-liberated into the dharmakaya.'

 

But if you want to use your lower understanding go for it. I am sure it is valid at lower levels of Buddhism.

 

In KGN, Samantabhadra says "I have discarded the establishment of virtue and sin, actions and their result."

 

This is a mental thing not an action thing

 

 

Fundamental to the mahayana and vajrayana Buddhist path, from the beginning to the end (in Buddhahood) is working for the benefit of all sentient beings. This applies to body, speech and mind. So it applies to intent, thought and actions. This is because the feeling of compassion reflects the nature of the dharmakaya itself. This is relative and ultimate bodhicitta. If you ask a Lama he will tell you that even though the highest teachings point to the liberation from the duality of good/bad and so on, as per your quote above, this does not mean that dharma is discarded. This is a misunderstanding. It doesn't work like that. The essential teachings of Buddhism from the Four Noble Truths onward support each other, it just that the insight into their meaning gets clearer and more direct.

 

 

 

Such a shame. All these poor old masters, practiced virtue, mind trainings, purification, Bodhicitta etc. for nothing. It's too bad you weren't there to tell them that thoughts don't matter, they could've saved so much time on their way to enlightenment.

Remember that when you'll be lying in the gutter with a stab wound in your abdomen.

 

Farewell.

 

 

I don't think this is a threat. He was saying its easy to say you are above relative dualism but harder to live it.

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

Eh, I started writing a reply, but deleted it, since there is no point in continuing this discussion. I shouldn't have even said anything in the first place, too bad I'm such an idiot. Maybe some day I'll learn not to talk about secret teachings, even though I have not said much. And what I have said could've been wrong so I'm doubly an idiot. Although I could not have said much anyway since I don't know almost anything. Even though I don't know anything, this is better than thinking I know something, when that something is non-sense.

 

By the way, are you threatening me?

 

No. What Apepch said.

 

But it's not surprising you'd think that. You see only the words and not the meaning. Most of the time we can't see the meaning unless we are taught. If we take a piece here and a piece there every once in a while without having the whole picture we get nothing but confusion. And even if we know the whole picture, without a qualified teacher one can't practice Vajrayana. If one does so, it just remains at the level of fantasy and probably we'd be much better off just watching porn or something.

 

A great sentence I read today, it said something like "A person who takes himself as his guru, has a fool for a student."

 

 

Oh well, off to smarter things. For sure this time.

[Apech]

Who is discarding the Dharma or compassion?

 

Now bodhicitta in Dzogchen is encapsulated by the following:

 

I and limitless sentient beings

are Buddhas primordially;

recognizing this to be so,

I create supreme bodhicitta.

 

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding what bodhicitta is.

 

You seem to think it is working for sentient beings till you obtain Buddhahood, when actually bodhicitta is the wish to obtain Buddhahood for onself, so that one has the power to benefit sentient beings.

 

Also good qualites (like compassion) are derived from rigpa....derived from the state I am talking about, not the other way around, so even if your definition of bodhicitta was correct, you are still wrong.

People in the east would understand this much faster, because even in other teachings like Advaita, there is the metaphor of the snake and rope, or the burned rope. I think people here have a Christian thing that says even certain thoughts are sin. Not that there is anything wrong with being Christian, but do not bring that into Buddhism.

 

By the way, who is rejecting the Four Noble Truths? The first two Noble Truths have to do with the CAUSE of suffering. The second two have to do with the EFFECT (suffering).

 

I have no idea how I am violating the Four Noble Truths, also known as dependent origination. Please tell me.

 

 

Relative or conventional bodhicitta = compassion.

Ultimate bodhicitta = dharmakaya.

 

This is because compassion is a natural outflowing of the enlightened mind.

 

Are the Four Noble Truths known as dependent origination? The middle way path to liberation is based on right action, thinking and so on. Anyway I don't recall saying you were violating them but simply that what you called lower understanding or whatever is actually part of the higher teachings.

 

If you want to practice Dzogchen then you need a qualified teacher who can explain the texts to you.

[RongzomFan]

do you have a basic understanding of the eightfold path?

Edited January 18, 2009 by alwayson

[Apech]

do you have a basic understanding of the eightfold path?

 

 

Yes.

[seadog]

Without bodhicitta Dzogchen is poison!

[Starjumper]

A great sentence I read today, it said something like "A person who takes himself as his guru, has a fool for a student."

Excellent!!

Edited January 18, 2009 by Starjumper7

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Magda]

Funny, I found the same topic in another forum:

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOP...amp;whichpage=1

 

Usually that's called trolling, but I guess the topic starter just wanted to share so much :)

Edited January 23, 2009 by Magda

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson