I practice KunLun

[i_am_sam]

I rely on my in-sense

[Spectrum]

Been following these threads for years. Been seeking mentors for a spell longer.

 

The below statement pretty much cuts to the heart of the matter.

 

This was in Santa Fe where a few of us were training the moving forms that he creates. They are really quit useful for smoothing out transitions between different energetics. Taiji into Aikido, Gungfu into Yoga, Aikido into ...

 

Spectrum

[altiora]

You'd make great conspiracy theorist!

Would you question the veracity of an artist without looking at their art?! or would you just read books and 'facts' about it? For me and most others, the practice brought immediate and very palpable results - it's pretty unsubtle sometimes.

 

It's fine for you not to try Kunlun - but leave it at that, rather than accusing long-standing members of this forum of some laughable 'counter-offensive' conspiracy.

 

 

There is no "conspiracy" been alleged: it is a factual observation as to why these threads have been created. The posts are attributable to people who are clearly upset at the questions that have been raised and who are trying to counter the negative impression been left by others. Admittedly "propaganda" is a loaded word so perhaps I should have chose another word.

 

To me if some one says silly things about my practices and beliefs, I just don't bother to condescend to respond -- it's not worth dignifying their comments with a response and because I feel secure in myself to know I'm correct.

 

Again, I have to ask what is wrong with people questioning and seeking answers without getting some knee jerk emotive "how dare you" response. I don't have any vested interest in this topic. But as is often the case with debates of this type, I do feel that if these questions that have been raised about the veracity of Kunlun teachings had been answered convincingly from day one, this debate would not have been continuing.

 

Again I raise the issue of how in future should claims made by teachers be resolved so that people can get on with it. And what are the responsbilities of teachers who make such claims to provide affirmative proof of their credentials.

 

I have to say that the pro Kunlun group seems to at least as guilty as the anti kunlun group (oh dear I might be guilty of conspiracy raking here) in lowering the civility and tone of this "discussion" and imputing foul deeds to those who disagree with them.

 

As for the comparing the artist analogy: it's not very convincing. The artist doesn't claim valdity from a lineage or special knowledge, but rather from the works he or she produce. You and I are able to make our own judgment about the merits of those works.

 

But we don't have such a choice with teachers. We are to an extent reliant on the veracity of the claims they make. A teacher, including this Max fellow, claim to derive this hitherto "secret" practice from qualified teachers and various lineages. They claim that these qualifications give them special knowledge. This is a selling point as to why we should trust the teacher with our time and money.

 

Accordingly in my view we are quite entitled to ask some hard questions and ask for proof of lineage claims. We are quite entitled to draw inferences from the things the teachers say -- it tells us much about what they know and therefore what they will teach us. And those teachers should front up and provide credible proof of the claims they make. I don't see why teachers should be any different to lawyers, doctors, accountants, nurses etc in being required to affirmatively prove they have the qualifications they claim.

 

I'll provide another example is reiki. There were (and still are) all sorts of reiki "masters" wandering around saying they had the "secret teachings" and the "original, pure school" etc etc. Incidentally three of such well known examples also claimed to be Lamas (but this was proven false as it turns out). It took research to find out that they were false and for them to be exposed. It was enormously unpopular when these questions were raised: people had invested so much money and time into these practices. And as you can imagine these teachers engaged in smear campaigns and dissemination to distract these questions being asked.

 

One of the comments they made when these false teachers were exposed was "but people find it works". Well that's great, but they should have done the honest thing and said that they had made it up themselves and not that it derived from secret teachings to which they alone were privy. It's about honesty. I choose practices that I know have stood the test of many centuries. Some prefer more modern approaches. Well and good. Both approaches are fine.

 

But the point is that if you have created it yourself, then say so and let it be judged on its own merits. If you have derived it from a long lineage please provide the proof.

 

Perhaps someone could be so kind as to share one kunlun practice so that us kunlun virigins can see its efficacy.

 

Interestingly the tantalizing hints of the standing kunlun practice elsewhere on this forum remind me of the "Three Dragons of Kunlun" prepatory postures taught by Chris Lee Matsuo on his Heart of Bagua DVD. But as I say, the details I have of kunlun practices are so hazy that I can't be sure.

Edited January 28, 2009 by altiora

[Cameron]

Chris has mentioned some of the Kunlun practices here in the past I believe. If you search for posts by Mantra68.

 

I think there is enough info on there website, Kunlunbliss.com to vibe out for youself if there is an interest or not. There is a clip of Max speaking so you can get a feel for his presence. If your interested you can buy the book. I think it's like $20 for the black and white version and packed full of practices

 

After doing the practice for a couple weeks(I would reccommend a month) you can decide for youself if you think doing a workshop with Max is right for you.

 

If not, do something else! I can tell you as a student of Max's I really could care less what anyone says anymore. It's your path not anyone elses do what is right for you.

 

And good luck in any case!

[Aetherous]

I agree with your arguments.

 

To clear things up: people here contacted Max's two main teachers, and they basically said, "yes we taught/shared with Max". You will find that if you search all-things-Kunlun on this forum. So the question of lineage is answered, you just have to look.

 

Essentially, Max took the Maoshan stuff he learned, and mixed it mainly with the Kunlun practice. There are other practices from other traditions, too...but that's the main stuff. So it's a new lineage that Max has created, which is based off of old lineages.

 

About whether to verify it's effectiveness...what pretty much everyone here has done is gone to the seminars and tried it out for themselves. That's where the practice journals all come from. Honest people exploring new territory and sharing. No one involved in any Kunlun organization or whatever has made a journal in an attempt to make it look good.

 

A Kunlun practice has already been shared here: the red sun practice. However, I don't think that's a good way to measure the system. Pretty much a seminar is the way to go for someone who is actually interested.

 

Anyway, this system isn't for everyone. It's all good.

[altiora]

I agree with your arguments.

 

To clear things up: people here contacted Max's two main teachers, and they basically said, "yes we taught/shared with Max". You will find that if you search all-things-Kunlun on this forum. So the question of lineage is answered, you just have to look.

 

 

Thanks. Would appreciate if you could locate those posts for me. Not being lazy or doubting you, but the sheer volume of posts on this subject making it almost impenetrable.

 

I suppose it that sheer volume and the emotion that this subject this topic has caused that has made me wonder if it would be (as a way of learning from past experiences and reducing future emnity) useful for the forum to discuss the issue of how do we test a teacher's veracity, what are the teacher's responsibilities and when should those questions stop? I imagine also that there should be limits on those who use such forums to question teachers given that they could cause much economic and personal damage. It's all a delicate balancing act.

 

I imagine it won't be long until another new kid on the block comes with another "secret" practice and the whole is it true or is not carnival starts up again.

[freeform]

Again I raise the issue of how in future should claims made by teachers be resolved so that people can get on with it. And what are the responsbilities of teachers who make such claims to provide affirmative proof of their credentials.

 

The point is - unlike some arts, Kunlun has a very immediate, palpable effect for most people - it's very very obvious... that's what I mean by 'unsubtle'. Rather than years spent on correct form and movement and theory to reach some desired end in the far future, the 'desired end' is tasted very quickly - within a few weeks.

 

The practice of K1 is formless - there is no 'correct' way of doing it. Of course there are pointers, hints and tips and so on, but there isn't any one correct way. The posture you learn in the book is used as a kind of telephone number to dial into your body and its ability to move spontaneously. When one meets Max there is another metaphorical phone number that is given. Nothing to do with theory or 'correct practice' or following some set-out formula.

 

I wouldn't trust a teacher that proves their credentials with a 'certificate' - if it's not immediately observable then I, personally, would tread carefully. And this is what it comes down to - if you meet Max, he will happily show you his 'credentials' - none of it is cloaked in pomp and tradition - it's right there, you can feel it and taste it.

 

Like Cameron I really don't care what people think or do. I'm happy for them as they are. I do however care when me and my friends are painted as working in some elaborate plot to further some money-making scheme - and especially when it comes from someone new to the 'scene' and the debate, with very little real information or experience in what they're talking about. This I consider actively disrespectful.

 

I really enjoy when people approach this subject with curiosity and questions - whether they're erring on the side of Kunlun or not. Farmerjoe is a good example - he's quite hesitant and asks great questions because he is actually curious. Then there are others who jump in with their profound 'wisdom' and tell us 'how it is' - and when they're met with any criticism they go back to "what's wrong with people questioning this" - when in fact there are no real, actual questions asked - just assertions and little straw-man questions designed to prove their assertions...

[Mal]

I suppose it that sheer volume and the emotion that this subject this topic has caused

 

You should have been here when it was "live" rather than archived.

 

Fun times

[YMWong]

Thanks. Would appreciate if you could locate those posts for me. Not being lazy or doubting you, but the sheer volume of posts on this subject making it almost impenetrable.

 

Don't waste your time, you won't go too far.

 

He studied with a Lion Dance/Gongfu/Martial Arts Master (Andrew Lum) in Hawaii that he (Max) claims is from a Daoist <sic> Maoshan Lineage they have no idea of.

He studied with Jenny Lamb, but recently claims to be his 'brother', who teaches a Spontaneous Qigong set whom he (Max) claims to be the basis of his Kunlun ~ a name he most probably made up.

He claim to have studied with another master from Wudang since a young age, which I have no reasons to disbelieve, and most probably is another Martial Arts teacher sold as Daoist Master.

 

He is certainly very good, in the eyes of those who believe him.

 

YM

[Yoda]

Having bad feelings about Max is likely a sign to look elsewhere and there are lots of different practices to check out:

 

Christian: kneel in prayer position and look up at an image of JC and start moving rhythmically until the movements feel automatic like sitting in a rocking chair.

 

Bradford Keeney: sit on a hard bench and move rhythmically/spontaneously for 5 minute sessions. Experiment with listening to African drumming and other music as time goes on.

 

Ken Cohen: stand in the horse stance and be mindful of subtle body motions that arise and allow those pulsations to move you.

 

KAP: our own Vajrasattva offers a skype course which includes spontaneous motion practice as well as ways to integrate it with many other practices into a system that harnesses both the upward and downward flows

 

Sifu Jenny: who taught Max Kunlun.

 

Scotty: PM him for info on his teacher's correspondence course

 

If I'm not mistaken, our own YMWong teaches this as well.

 

Then there's Ratu Bagus and I'm sure many other systems out there as well.

 

Bon appetit!!

[minkus]

Don't waste your time, you won't go too far.

 

He studied with a Lion Dance/Gongfu/Martial Arts Master (Andrew Lum) in Hawaii that he (Max) claims is from a Daoist <sic> Maoshan Lineage they have no idea of.

He studied with Jenny Lamb, but recently claims to be his 'brother', who teaches a Spontaneous Qigong set whom he (Max) claims to be the basis of his Kunlun ~ a name he most probably made up.

He claim to have studied with another master from Wudang since a young age, which I have no reasons to disbelieve, and most probably is another Martial Arts teacher sold as Daoist Master.

 

He is certainly very good, in the eyes of those who believe him.

 

YM

 

I went to a seminar in Germany with Max, i had no clue of he's background or lineage.

 

Reason i went is to see if Max and he's companions had good energy and good practices wich could help me with my own practice.

 

Luckely Max's knowledge and energy is real, same with mantra's (Chris) energy btw .. it was very nice feeling mantra opening up my central channel with an intense hot tingly energy ! It was very enjoyable laying down while Max gave me a certain transmission and feeling the energy go from center to center opening up and clearing anything on its way. Not that i could ignore it or anything, it was there yes.

 

It was very nice receiving the content of he's teachings wich i still practice till today .. because it helps and works on what it is meant for .. the strong energy's of the 3 phases of Kunlun and Red Phoenix, the compassion gained with the golden flower to name a few. Luckely the energy combines really nice with the Chen taiji i practice.

 

Also very nice we could ask many questions and even better getting the right answers. My personal question on burning palm got answered and i still practice daily the exercise given.

 

Still i dont really care about background or lineage .. practices change, evolve and mix constantly (check history on large and small frame in Chen taiji for example). The world is so small and humans have 2 arms and 2 legs go figure..

 

What does a name mean when the practice works ? When i would get a disease and go see a docter it really doesnt mind if he's name is Jack or Jhon and he's fathers name is Albert or Rick and he's proffesors name is Andy or Tom.. aslong as he cures me im a very happy person.

 

Have you been to a Kunlun workshop before YM ? i sense some irony in your post, on what did you base your opinion on ?

 

Kind regards, Mike

[Cameron]

I say just let people say what they want. Have strong opinions one way or another.

 

The truth is Max has grown well beyond the opinions of the Taobums. At the last level 1 workshop with 70+practitioners myself and a friend were the only "taobum representitives" present. Max doesn't read this site and is over it. There is a Kunlun Forum set up for students who actually do the practice and not just talk about it.

 

It's all good regardless. Things are as they should be. There will always be "know it all" types like YM Wong who talk about Max as if they know when they don't have a clue. Yes, Max learned everything from some martial artists. I am sure the almost instant awakening experiences people get at Kunlun workshops is because of all the Kung Fu forms and Lion dances Max has done

 

The disrespect and ignorance of such people only serves to discredit the spiritual system they themselves follow. Whatever "authentic branch of Taoism" they assert themselves to be.

 

Ok, I'll bow out of these discussions again. Enjoy yourselves

Edited January 28, 2009 by Cameron

[Aetherous]

Thanks. Would appreciate if you could locate those posts for me. Not being lazy or doubting you, but the sheer volume of posts on this subject making it almost impenetrable.

 

It'd be just as hard for me to find them. I guess try searching "lum" or "maoshan" if you're really interested. YM Wong has his side of the argument and others have had theirs. I personally don't see a reason to doubt that it's actual Maoshan practices, having tried it and knowing a tiny bit from writings on Maoshan.

 

I agree with Cameron...people will think what they want. Debating about whether the practice is legit or not is a huge waste of time. The people that don't think it's legit can leave it alone. The people that do can practice it. Or everyone can argue about it...but that's kind of gotten old now.

[farmerjoe]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=5833&st=0

 

Kunlun Lineage

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=5833&st=0

 

Kunlun Lineage

 

 

I've been talking with a couple of Kunlun students that told me that Max's credentials have been detailed on the Kunlun site and they seemed very satisfied with them. Joe.

[thelerner]

I'd recommend going to one of Max's seminars and giving Kunlun a try to anyone. I find it to be a simple and powerful practice that complements the other thing I do. If it resonates great, if not, its still a trip worth being exposed to.

 

Max has real juice and experience, not just because what I've seen, but also from what more experienced people have related from his presence. I also think he exagerates, any deep search for mysterious Kunlun monasteries, lineages and hard evidence of such is going to come up empty IMHO.

 

I might be wrong about that, its a big world; but Kunlun practice stands on its own. Its a system of spontaneous Chi gung where You get out of the way and it does its thing or maybe allows you do your own thing at a deeper level.

 

 

Michael

[Spirit Ape]

Hahaha Oh release the HOUNDS!!!

[Aetherous]

Thanks farmerjoe...

 

So in that link Xienkula posted his correspondence with the two main teachers:

 

Me too. Only I spoke with Sifu Jenny. It is called Spontaneous Adjustment Qi Gong. It has 3 levels. Max is a qualified instructor. It was not called Kunlun, nor is it associated with the region. It does not have 7402 Masters or other stories( Sound familiar to Takata and Usui). It came from her teacher. It is based on Qi, a type of Qi.

 

Just spoke with Sifu Andrew Lum. He told me Red Phoenix is something he taught specially for Max, and that he recognises that Max does have a special inborn quality like to a bodhisattva.

 

He says Red Phoenix is better not practiced at same time as SAQG.

 

Seems like a kind man, with Aloha. He focuses on teaching Yang style Tai Chi to the public. He does not teach Red Phoenix. He says Red Phoenix is something very important and special to Max, but not really at all important to Lum. He says his Sifu is indirectly related with Mao Shan and has nothing to do with Shaolin Kung Fu. Sifu Lum does not know anything about Golden Dragon, and does not teach Golden Dragon. He says Red Phoenix is not related to Golden Dragon.

[Mal]

There is a Kunlun Forum set up for students who actually do the practice and not just talk about it.

 

No. You forget that the kunlun forum is only for people who have gone to seminars

 

For us book readers there is just the 'bums.

 

Hahaha Oh release the HOUNDS!!!

 

Well it has been a few week since we hounded anyone

[Cameron]

Well I am sure I had invited you to come to Arizona and do a workshop at one point!

 

It's not my fault you can't afford a plane ticket from down under

 

I am kidding of course and know it can be expensive. My mum is from Oz and she spent a month 4x4'ing around the coast last summer. I hope I can go sometime.

 

But seriously..stick with the KAP stuff your doing man. Though I have no doubt if you went to LA or wherever to see Max it would be worth the trip.

 

Camz

Edited January 29, 2009 by Cameron

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Mal,

 

Yes, weeks not talking about Max has made me feel good! LOL BUT THAT MICHEAL WINN FELLA??? hahaha

 

How was CNY do any Lion and Dragon dancing we did loads of it....

 

Gung hei faht Choy

[YMWong]

One good thing about this Forum is that all POV's are accepted - so I offer mine.

 

Everyone makes up his mind through different means and apparently most of the KL supporters base theirs on *feeling*: as I said, I am sure Max is good in the eyes of those who trust him.

 

While I consider myself a pragmatic in many ways, if I am introduced to somebody who is nice and tells me that he is a Science Graduate from Harvard but then fails to even know where Harvard is ... I may continue to consider him nice by *feeling* but won't trust him anymore and certainly won't rely on him for scientific knowledge.

 

But, again, I understand that others may see things different

 

YM

[Mal]

[Cameron]

One good thing about this Forum is that all POV's are accepted - so I offer mine.

 

Everyone makes up his mind through different means and apparently most of the KL supporters base theirs on *feeling*: as I said, I am sure Max is good in the eyes of those who trust him.

 

While I consider myself a pragmatic in many ways, if I am introduced to somebody who is nice and tells me that he is a Science Graduate from Harvard but then fails to even know where Harvard is ... I may continue to consider him nice by *feeling* but won't trust him anymore and certainly won't rely on him for scientific knowledge.

 

But, again, I understand that others may see things different

 

YM

 

 

Your obviously well along on your path and have developed your views on things. I would ask you to perhaps have a more open mind about things before rushing to tell people studying with Max is a waste of time or that he is lying about lineage.

 

Your intitled to do as you please of course and obviously you think you are right. I will try to be open minded to even consider your view.

 

The truth , after all, has little to do with beliefs. The truth is what is.

[Spirit Ape]

Hey,

 

Southern mantis and Hakka arts like ours all do Kei Lun (unicorn, lion and dragon) maybe The Sue's didnt get into it that much of the tradition and only the fighting of Mantis regardless all good!

 

Ape

[farmerjoe]