I practice KunLun

[Aetherous]

YM,

 

Everyone makes up his mind through different means and apparently most of the KL supporters base theirs on *feeling*: as I said, I am sure Max is good in the eyes of those who trust him.

 

This is kind of offensive to anyone who disagrees with you! I for one don't merely rely on *feeling* to make decisions. I consider myself to be pretty rational when it comes to what I believe in.

 

If you look at http://www.cic.sfu.ca/nacc/articles/secret...retanttext.html , it's interesting how many people seem to think that the secret of this poem was to push on the spot under the nose...like acupressure. But Max says to smile, and that it opens the crown (it's interesting, that point on the face is called "mountain spring", and like a pure mountain spring, the heaven energy of the crown comes down like a mountain spring through you when this point is activated (bad explanation but it should make sense to someone with experience)). Smiling in the right way spreads open this point instead of just agitating it. Also, if you watch the video of Max and look at his eye area, it's open (the inner eyebrow is up and out, yet it's all relaxed). Just like the, "twin blossoms issue from the heavenly court". So for one thing, this is a sign to me that he was taught actual Maoshan teachings.

 

But about relying on your feelings...

 

If the practice (red phoenix) was entirely made up and not from a real lineage, then it would make sense that it would do nothing...or at least do a little bit of something so that people could fool themselves into believing it was a real practice when it wasn't.

 

But I've personally had experiences with it where my body would seem to disappear, or where my mind would completely be empty. It's not just that it's a feel good energetic practice...there's really something to it.

 

Now, I don't really care if someone thinks it's a scam or not. I really don't...people should do whatever practices they like, and believe whatever they want. It's hard to say what's true. I'm just sharing my view and experience.

 

Pretty much because it feels like an attack on my character (as well as the others who are into the practice).

 

While I consider myself a pragmatic in many ways

 

Me too...

 

if I am introduced to somebody who is nice and tells me that he is a Science Graduate from Harvard but then fails to even know where Harvard is ... I may continue to consider him nice by *feeling* but won't trust him anymore and certainly won't rely on him for scientific knowledge.

 

I don't see that as an analogy which fits.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Scotty

[Mal]

[Spectrum]

The truth is Max has grown well beyond the opinions of the Taobums.

 

Actually Max has never engaged with the Taobums forum in direct dialog. Regardless, claiming martial traditions is a touchy subject which requires certain types of "testing" that combine "feeling" with "action"...

Edited January 29, 2009 by Spectrum

[mgd]

.

Edited May 17, 2009 by mgd

[YMWong]

YM,

This is kind of offensive to anyone who disagrees with you! I for one don't merely rely on *feeling* to make decisions. I consider myself to be pretty rational when it comes to what I believe in.

 

Hello Scotty,

 

if you find what I said offensive I am sorry but I am afraid you'll have to live with that, as we clearly give different value to the words "feeling" and "rationale".

 

[...] So for one thing, this is a sign to me that he was taught actual Maoshan teachings.

 

If reading and re-interpreting a few articles (Poul Anderson's work has been mentioned before) is a "sign of being taught actual Maoshan" in your mind I respect your opinion but strongly disagree.

 

Moreover, to be "taught Maoshan teachings" is totally irrelevant to the claim of being a Daoshi in the Maoshang Shangqing Pai, similarly to claim of having a medical degree at Harvard simply having read an anatomy book.

 

If the practice (red phoenix) was entirely made up and not from a real lineage, then it would make sense that it would do nothing...or at least do a little bit of something so that people could fool themselves into believing it was a real practice when it wasn't.

 

But I've personally had experiences with it where my body would seem to disappear, or where my mind would completely be empty. It's not just that it's a feel good energetic practice...there's really something to it.

 

Made up practice does not necessarily "do nothing": ALL and EVERY existing practice has been "made up" by somebody, somewhere in history no ?

 

Moreover, you simply need to participate in one of the many born-again-christian shows that are so common especially in the US to see that it doesn't take much to "feel good energetic practice" for one who wants to believe it.

 

Best

 

YM

[freeform]

YM, I also find it slightly offensive. I'm very happy that you have your opinions - and I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

But what I find offensive is that you bring nothing of you to the table. All you tell us is how we are - you constantly tell us about us.

 

On a subtle level, of course, this tells me a lot about you! but I don't bother telling you how you are - I'm open to whatever you've got to offer. But unfortunately you don't seem to offer much (yet?).

[Yoda]

The mystery of FarmerJoe revealed!! The Shaking Medicine book really helped me put all this into a larger perspective too.

[Aetherous]

YM,

 

if you find what I said offensive I am sorry but I am afraid you'll have to live with that, as we clearly give different value to the words "feeling" and "rationale".

 

I don't think we do. To me it seems like you're just not listening to my rationale.

 

It's all good. Not a big deal. I'm sure if we met in real life we'd have fun and this wouldn't be an issue.

 

If reading and re-interpreting a few articles (Poul Anderson's work has been mentioned before) is a "sign of being taught actual Maoshan" in your mind I respect your opinion but strongly disagree.

 

Well yes that's definitely my opinion. But I don't think it's just a reinterpretation of the article. I think the article is a misinterpretation of the poem. It seems pretty clear to me that the actual teachings were hidden, and the article attempts to make sense of the little that was revealed...and fails pretty bad. We come to the conclusion that you're supposed to use your hands to massage these points on your face. But is that really what the Maoshan revelations are all about?

 

It definitely seems like someone was "taught actual Maoshan," when they come along and give the right way to do it...which was not written about in any book before, and which actually works.

 

However, everyone is welcome to disagree. But just because they do, it doesn't make them rational. Generally, people who are rational give reasons for why they disagree with something.

 

Moreover, to be "taught Maoshan teachings" is totally irrelevant to the claim of being a Daoshi in the Maoshang Shangqing Pai, similarly to claim of having a medical degree at Harvard simply having read an anatomy book.

 

I'll agree with that! My only argument is that Max was taught actual "secret" Maoshan practices and teachings. I have no idea if he's actually in the lineage.

[YMWong]

It's all good. Not a big deal. I'm sure if we met in real life we'd have fun and this wouldn't be an issue.

 

Well, at least you finally managed to express an idea that I can agree with

 

YM

[Cameron]

You know, I think it's a good excercise to also try to see things from other people's perspective. And I think I get it now. Maybe not, but I think I do

 

Some people here who have issues with Max's authenticity like YMWong basically are looking for real verification from the Chinese Taoist way of seeing things. Taoism is a Chinese tradition. Perhaps if you went back far enough you would find a pre Taoist root to things that many people think is more Shamanistic. But for all intents and purpouses Taoism as we know it is from China. Now, many high level Taoist teachers stay underground. They only teach to a select few and not publically.

 

The one's that teach publically we really have a good idea of their story. For example, teacher's like Master Wang Liping. We know his story well. Heck, there was a popular book written about him. We know his lineage pretty clearly and who is teachers were. It's all open.

 

However, there are probably many high level teachers like that we do not know. They do not teach openly like that. They don't discuss where they learned Taoism from.

 

I think Max is unique. He is a public teacher and has some teachers we know and some we don't. This is part of the issue I think. The reality is most "public" teachers sort of tell you where they learned from.

 

Max, on the other hand, has studied with many,many,many high level Masters. And many of them he doesn't speak about publically.

 

Sure, you may here him mention "his aunties" in China who can walk through walls and can move you across the room with there mind but he won't give you there address on his website

 

He has told us about some of his teachers on the Kunlun Forum. And it's true to the "traditional Taoist" perspective some of it is "out there". The difference is many of us who study with Max are perfectly fine with that. If having a high level teacher who can show you amazing things at a weekend workshop also means you don't get to know everything about everything regarding who,what,where he trained with that is OK for me.

 

What I am getting at is I think most of the issue people have is just a misunderstanding. It's not that Max isn't completely legit(he is in my opnion). It's that he is in a unique situation of being a public teacher who is "in" on some very deeply guarded traditions and knowledge. He shares it with students at workshops but he sort of sprinkles it here and there. He can't just come out and say everything because alot of it is secret knowledge you wouldn't be told unless you spent a lifetime in these traditions.

 

But here is my main point..after getting the transmission and learning the practices from Max I mostly didn't care where,what,who the practices came from. And I realize that might be disturbing if your completely into traditional Taoist dogma. It became apparent to me the spiritual path was not about following someone else or spending hours trying to determine if they are a "real Taoist" or not. It was about unfolding my own mystery. The information that is given isn't about putting you inside a lineage cage but freeing you from it. It's all about freedom after all. If you can't drop the concepts of Taoism and Buddhism what's the point really? To get a new and even bigger ego by being a "Taoist"? No, a bigger ego about being a "real Maoshan Taoist"?

 

The reality is most of the people who train with Max could care less if he learned what he has from Maoshan,Wudang,Kunlun,,Egyptian School, Tibetan School or another star system

 

And I get it. That is most likely completely ridiculous to someone who carefully measures Taoist authenticity by how well written his or her story is. I don't think it is an impoper view at all. From that view Max would probably frustrate me also. But is the only conclusion that he is a fraud? It couldn't be he wants to protect some of his teachers or realizes alot of the information isn't useful to public viewing?

 

OK here is a question to the Max bashers..if you could write a list of questions to Max to verify that he is a "Real Taoist" and not a made up one, what would it be? What information would satisfy you? Is there a special Taoist handshake or something? I am guessing since Max says Maoshan is the most secret clan and he is teaching it publically for the first time there aren't too many people who would even be in the position to verify Max.

 

What about you, YM Wong? Are you a real Maoshan Taoist? Did you spend decades training in the Maoshan Pai or know anyone that has? If so, wouldn't there be a simple way for you to "test" Max? If not, on what basis could you possibly even have a clue if Max is a Maoshan Taoist Master(he never uses that term himself) or not?

 

Attempting to see from the other's perspective.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Cameron

[YMWong]

By the way Scotty, just a few comments on your "rationale" which is based solely on your 'feelings' but without ANY actual direct knowledge of the Maoshan Tradition:

 

If you look at http://www.cic.sfu.ca/nacc/articles/secret...retanttext.html , it's interesting how many people seem to think that the secret of this poem was to push on the spot under the nose...like acupressure. But Max says to smile, and that it opens the crown [...]

 

'Mountain Spring' (shanyuan) 山源 IS an area below the nose which basically correspond to 'renzhong'人中 (centre, between nose and lips) and is also referred in the Maoshan Tradition as to 'Ghosts Well' (guijin), 'Spirits Lake' (shenchi) or 'Ghosts Altar' (guitai).

'Heavenly Horse' 天馬 ARE the hands.

The Zhen Gao quoted in the article expressely explains to PRESS (an) 按 a specific area with the hands. Various other texts and commentaries discuss the technique at length "[...] with the second and third finger of the left hand, at the 'renzhong' point below the nostrils [...]" (from "Lingqian Zi Yindao Ziwu Ji" - Dongxuan Bu - Daozang / Daoist Canon ~ just to quote one).

The manipulation is done in order to 'guijin bimen' (close the door of the Ghosts Well) and is preceded and followed by a series of 'massages' (for lack of a better word) to various areas/points on the head in a specific sequence and with specific significance.

 

For your info

 

YM

[YMWong]

What about you, YM Wong? Are you a real Maoshan Taoist? Did you spend decades training in the Maoshan Pai or know anyone that has? If so, wouldn't there be a simple way for you to "test" Max? If not, on what basis could you possibly even have a clue if Max is a Maoshan Taoist Master(he never uses that term himself) or not?

 

Cameron,

 

a Maoshan Shangqing Pai Daoist, like any other orthodox daoist, would have no problem to disclose his lineal name, the poem from which it derives, the name of his teachers and - if he/she is less known/hermit or the likes - a few teachers above him/her.

 

YM

[Sloppy Zhang]

I've never really gotten into this Kunlun conversation. I had heard of Kunlun a bit in other places, but when I first came here and saw how many Kunlun people there were, I did some more research.

 

I've also gone back and read a lot (maybe not all.... but a LOT) of old threads all the way through on that stuff.

 

My initial impressions from reading the Kunlun website and other accounts was that this Max guy was pretty badass, you know, learning all this high level stuff, studying traditions from deep in mountains and stuff like that, and journeying to monasteries. Then I get a little more into and find out names of teachers and they're like... living in Hawaii... I was like.... huh? (not ALL of them but you know who I'm referring to)

 

But then I read posts like Cameron's that mention Max naming some of his teachers and not others. Well.... I guess that's okay. And even though I had the impression that Max had journeyed to some far out places.... it never actually SAID that he traveled deep into the heart of China to find a Wudang master... okay, well, that's true... but the paragraph still gave that impression so.... you know, on the one hand, it's my fault for "misreading", but on the other hand, it's kind of sneaky that a paragraph can give that impression, and you can SPECIFICALLY write something to give a certain impression while not technically having to lie about it. Not saying that's what it does.... but I myself can write persuasively and create certain impressions from time to time, so I know it can be done.

 

The other thing that kind of.... I dunno, draws my interest, is when it is said that Max knows many many high level secrets and is willing to share. And I'm thinking, well that's awesome. Then in the same paragraph one says that even if someone spends a lifetime with these masters, even if they are related and not "foreign" they STILL probably wouldn't give the same secrets..... wait... huh? Max has them even though you spend a lifetime with one teacher and STILL don't get them but Max has.... all that many?

 

Well then those teachers saw something in Max, that it was his destiny, karmic fate, a certain incarnation of a past person, etc. Okay, well that explains that.

 

And then finally, reading some of the descriptions, I don't like how there's the emphasis on "surrendering". On the kunlunbliss website it gave the option to read the forward of the Level 1 book I believe it was, and it said several times like, "you need to surrender to the energy". I'm okay with "relaxing" and "letting things flow"... but "surrender"? Hm..... I don't know.

 

Furthermore, they say that Max helps you become "re-enlightened", because you already were enlightened you just forgot. Okay, that's neat. Then they turn around and say with the transmission Max plants the seed and you learn how to help that seed grow. But wait... wouldn't that seed become Max's tree if he planted it? Sure, it's in you... but Max still put it there in the first place. It would be more precise if, say, I dunno.... you said "you used to be enlightened, but that tree died and left behind a seed, but you forgot where that seed was buried, Max helps you find it and lets you cultivate the seed for the new tree of enlightenment." Or something like that. As it stands now.... it sounds like Max is giving you something and you are cultivating something that is Max's but it is in you.

 

I'm not making a judgment one way or the other, I'm just saying what I have seen so far and my thoughts about it. Paragraphs on kunlun related websites and books give certain impressions on people, and it's not just me because others have asked questions about it, and it's taken people like Cameron to come in and clear up the details. Well... shouldn't an "about Max" page.... be more clear in its writing? Yes, I guess it pays to read every single specific word and analyze it, but.... if you are just reading over the website for general info (as I did the first time), it gives LOTS of incorrect impressions to people, impressions that need to be "clarified" by another source, and then it requires re-reading a couple times.....

 

But IMHO I don't think you should HAVE to read a "general info" page several times and have it clarified by someone on the forum for you to get the facts. That sounds like shady advertising and getting you to get a product that's different than what you think.

[i_am_sam]

it sounds like Max is giving you something and you are cultivating something that is Max's but it is in you.

 

 

maybe it belongs to everybody?

[Cameron]

I think these are all valid questions and definetly nothing wrong with asking them.

 

Alot of the questions regarding the seed Max plants are interesting. Is it his seed? My seed? The worlds seed? Nobody's seed

 

From my limited understanding, what Max helps to do is connect you to the "one law". Ok, what is the one law? He says it is the one vibration that connects all things. His abilty to help you see this is beyond my understanding frankly. But I definetly don't think there is any negative aspect involved. I just got another couple transfers from Max a couple weeks ago and it just made me feel more blissfull and loving. More happy then I was before.

 

My limited understanding is you need to do the practice to then keep this happy and loving vibration going. So Max sort of "taps you in" to the vibe you could say. But then you "tap yourself in" yourself by doing the practice.

 

I don't think you need to worry about growing a tree and Max coming to you in 20 years and taking it from you. It's not about that imo

 

Anyway, I am cool with all the quesitons and concerns. And I will readily admit I really am not the person to be answering any of them!

 

Peace!

Edited January 29, 2009 by Cameron

[joeblast]

the one law, one vibration, whatever...its not necessarily a 'seed'...its a particular energy, frequency, vibration, and its experiential - you can discover it on your own but it may take you longer than going to see someone that projects it enough that you feel a whhhhomm as he walks by you (an interesting contrast, similar but qualitatively different when his girlfriend walks by you, I am able to sense her more than Max, interestingly enough....eyes closed, of course.)

 

So once you get an idea of what that energy is, you cultivate it in spontaneous practice.

 

then again, kunlun energy isnt quite the same as the red phoenix energy, its the mix of the two that give the more profound results. since he only teaches red phoenix at seminars, that's why he says you only need to see him once. that one needs to be properly taught (not that it couldnt be taught effectively via book or mouth...)

 

SZ...'surrender' is ostensibly meant as a more profound 'letting go'...its basically...just go with it, sarge!

 

kunlun is but a name

[Sloppy Zhang]

maybe it belongs to everybody?

 

 

I think these are all valid questions and definetly nothing wrong with asking them.

 

Alot of the questions regarding the seed Max plants are interesting. Is it his seed? My seed? The worlds seed? Nobody's seed

 

From my limited understanding, what Max helps to do is connect you to the "one law". Ok, what is the one law? He says it is the one vibration that connects all things. His abilty to help you see this is beyond my understanding frankly. But I definetly don't think there is any negative aspect involved. I just got another couple transfers from Max a couple weeks ago and it just made me feel more blissfull and loving. More happy then I was before.

 

My limited understanding is you need to do the practice to then keep this happy and loving vibration going. So Max sort of "taps you in" to the vibe you could say. But then you "tap yourself in" yourself by doing the practice.

 

I don't think you need to worry about growing a tree and Max coming to you in 20 years and taking it from you. It's not about that imo

 

Anyway, I am cool with all the quesitons and concerns. And I will readily admit I really am not the person to be answering any of them!

 

Peace!

 

 

the one law, one vibration, whatever...its not necessarily a 'seed'...its a particular energy, frequency, vibration, and its experiential - you can discover it on your own but it may take you longer than going to see someone that projects it enough that you feel a whhhhomm as he walks by you (an interesting contrast, similar but qualitatively different when his girlfriend walks by you, I am able to sense her more than Max, interestingly enough....eyes closed, of course.)

 

So once you get an idea of what that energy is, you cultivate it in spontaneous practice.

 

then again, kunlun energy isnt quite the same as the red phoenix energy, its the mix of the two that give the more profound results. since he only teaches red phoenix at seminars, that's why he says you only need to see him once. that one needs to be properly taught (not that it couldnt be taught effectively via book or mouth...)

 

Interesting thoughts everyone, thanks!

 

SZ...'surrender' is ostensibly meant as a more profound 'letting go'...its basically...just go with it, sarge!

 

I kind of figured that much, but "surrender" doesn't sit well with me, too many negative connotations. I'm fine with "letting go".... it's just the word choice that I wasn't really drawn to.

 

Then again, maybe I'm spiritually paranoid! I don't want to surrender myself to someone so I can become their spiritual zombie tree robot!

 

(that's a joke! I don't want to mistakenly add more fuel to this fiery debate that's gone on for... a long time!)

Edited January 29, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[freeform]

But IMHO I don't think you should HAVE to read a "general info" page several times and have it clarified by someone on the forum for you to get the facts. That sounds like shady advertising and getting you to get a product that's different than what you think.

 

I liked your post!

 

some comments:

 

You dont have to read it at all. It's actually probably better if you don't.

 

The fact is Kunlun is (or at least started as) a very small, quiet family. Chris discovered Max and was very excited to bring what Max has to offer to all of us.

 

It's very hard to explain what it's all about, because has nothing to do with logic, reason, thinking or planning.

 

In putting together the marketing, Chris wasn't expecting to have so many critical eyes examining every tiny detail of every word - because firstly words and 'knowledge' has very little importance compared to the experience and secondly there is only so much time for him to be organising workshops and marketing, looking after the website, answering our never-ending questions and actually leading a normal life...

 

There aren't a dozen writers, chroniclers and scholars researching the theoretical underpinnings or following careful lineage information and then presenting this to us. this is not what it's all about.

 

The way Chris organises the marketing is to give you a taster of the mystery and magic of the practice - not a scholarly document. You are then invited to go to a free introductory talk - where you will either be drawn to the work or not! It's so simple. But we all make it so much more difficult.

 

If you read Bradford Keeney's accounts of meeting high-level shamans, you'll discover how other-worldly this stuff gets - he would get exact names, premonitions specific places - all appeared to him in dreams and visions... he was taught by many high-level shamans that asked him to teach their ways. He has their blessings, and carries their lineage - but there are no certificates, websites, books detailing who did what - who taught who what. Relationships are more important than words and assurances.

[joeblast]

And indeed, Chris pretty much assumes responsibility for any 'sensationalism,' as they're mostly his words in those descriptions. He had no idea how people were going to react when he first started hashing all of this stuff out with Max.

[Sloppy Zhang]

If it truly is a case of the marketing turning people off, rather than the practice, then might I suggest a radical change in marketing?

 

Going around saying, "secrets of the ancient masters that no one will receive even with a lifetime of practice... all held by one westerner!" and "secrets of the ancient kunlun mountains, taught to him by secret masters deep in the heart of.... hawaii" only serve to... hm... I dunno, caution people.

 

I'm experienced enough to know you can't really judge something unless you experience it, which is why I'm not making a judgment about the Kunlun practice.

 

However, I've experienced the marketing. My interest was piqued in Kunlun and I read the website. It looked cool. Then I did some more research on the background (I was roped in my karate McDojo's when I was younger... so now I check up on people) and frankly I was shocked by the amount of clarification needed on certain topics, topics that shouldn't require so much clarification. That shocked me, and served as a warning sign.

 

I was more than ready to get the Kunlun level 1 book, but then hearing conflicting info, retelling stuff, different stories all over the place, then finally one big master story with all these different things it just... I dunno, it seemed like too much work for something so simple. And I guarantee you that other people who go through that much work (and reading) to get a story that is STILL shaky are going to be less interested in checking the system out.

 

A good system shouldn't be crippled by confusing marketing.

[Aetherous]

YM,

 

'Mountain Spring' (shanyuan) 山源 IS an area below the nose which basically correspond to 'renzhong'人中 (centre, between nose and lips) and is also referred in the Maoshan Tradition as to 'Ghosts Well' (guijin), 'Spirits Lake' (shenchi) or 'Ghosts Altar' (guitai).

'Heavenly Horse' 天馬 ARE the hands.

 

Yes I agree that "heavenly horse" is the hands, but I don't think pressing (acupressure) is the actual original meaning. My personal opinion is that pressing meant to put your attention on the hands. That way, it kind of pulls the heavenly energy through the body...the hands are kind of like a magnet, or like a horse pulling something along its path.

 

But yeah that's just totally my own interpretation based off of my practice. No scholarly reason for thinking that.

 

The Zhen Gao quoted in the article expressely explains to PRESS (an) 按 a specific area with the hands. Various other texts and commentaries discuss the technique at length "[...] with the second and third finger of the left hand, at the 'renzhong' point below the nostrils [...]" (from "Lingqian Zi Yindao Ziwu Ji" - Dongxuan Bu - Daozang / Daoist Canon ~ just to quote one).

The manipulation is done in order to 'guijin bimen' (close the door of the Ghosts Well) and is preceded and followed by a series of 'massages' (for lack of a better word) to various areas/points on the head in a specific sequence and with specific significance.

 

It could be true that such is the correct way to apply the ideas in the poem...or it could be that those commentators were way off. I just find it interesting that there's a different way to do it, which actually works. For someone to apply those acupressure points, would they get the same effect? I know I didn't.

 

For the sake of this argument, I obviously lose. I'm no scholar on this stuff.

 

However, now differing points of view are here for people to see...and I think that's a good thing.

[freeform]

I dunno, it seemed like too much work for something so simple. And I guarantee you that other people who go through that much work (and reading) to get a story that is STILL shaky are going to be less interested in checking the system out.

 

A good system shouldn't be crippled by confusing marketing.

 

It's only work if you're trying to work it all out.

 

Live and experience the story and it's effortless.

 

Sounds cheesy maybe, but it applies.

 

Confusing marketing may actually be the most appropriate in this case.

 

'Beginner's mind' by its very nature must be unsure, confused, uncertain.

 

I really wasn't sure myself when I started. Really - I was kinda in the same camp as you.

 

But because of my prior history and practices, uncertainty and confusion were actually welcomed.

 

Kunlun itself shakes all pre-conceptions out of you. maybe the marketing does the same.

 

I think Chris has done a huge service to all of us that practice this art.

 

You can't drink the word 'water'. and you can't experience the practice from its description.

 

And again - exact wording, historical accuracies and scholarly explanations is the polar opposite of what Kunlun (for me) is about.

 

Ever heard a good story-teller transmit a fascinating story? Ever read a computer manual?

 

The story-teller and the author of the computer manual would experience Kunlun very differently. The logical reason-focused person would have a harder time of letting go.

 

I much rather have a drink with the story teller.

 

[Spirit Ape]

YM

 

Thankyou just understood something about Heavenly Horses in my own system from your post, can you give more detail regarding Heavenly Horses and what they relate to Daoist/m?

 

Regards

Ape

[rain]

kunlun

appeals to some

 

kunlun does not appeal

to others

[YMWong]

Yes I agree that "heavenly horse" is the hands, but I don't think pressing (acupressure) is the actual original meaning. My personal opinion is that pressing meant to put your attention on the hands. That way, it kind of pulls the heavenly energy through the body...the hands are kind of like a magnet, or like a horse pulling something along its path.

 

Scotty,

 

I understand you, like everybody else, is trying to make sense of the little info in your possession.

But since you say you are 'rationale' please try to be it. Your *understanding* of a poem from an english article totally out of context and used as "proof that Max has been taught Maoshan" is not rationale, is poor use of fantasy. It is at best delusional, in my opinion.

Your rationale would have sound exactly the same if you had said "Heavenly Horses are the hands: oh gosh, Max has TWO hands - this is the proof that he is Maoshan Daoist !".

 

Let me ask you: how can you say "I agree 'heavenly horses' are the hands" ? On the base of WHAT ?

 

You then go as far as to say:

 

It could be true that such is the correct way to apply the ideas in the poem...or it could be that those commentators were way off.

 

So now it could be that you are right and commentators from Maoshan Tradition in the Daoist Canon are wrong ?

Are you kidding me or yourself ?!?

 

Not happy you finally add that:

 

I just find it interesting that there's a different way to do it, which actually works. For someone to apply those acupressure points, would they get the same effect? I know I didn't.

 

What "effect" are you talking about ?

The energetic one from the crown your fantasy has made up and that you explain in your message or the one from the text ?

It suffices to read a little more of Russel's article to understand that - and I quote:

 

We also know that the poem was part of a series of revelations begun on the thirteenth of that same month, concerning methods of counteracting weakness of sight and hearing, especially in old age.

 

I apologize for being so direct, Scotty, but hopefully my comments can help get you back on track

 

YM