I practice KunLun

[Aetherous]

YM,

 

I understand you, like everybody else, is trying to make sense of the little info in your possession.

But since you say you are 'rationale' please try to be it. Your *understanding* of a poem from an english article totally out of context and used as "proof that Max has been taught Maoshan" is not rationale, is poor use of fantasy. It is at best delusional, in my opinion.

Your rationale would have sound exactly the same if you had said "Heavenly Horses are the hands: oh gosh, Max has TWO hands - this is the proof that he is Maoshan Daoist !".

 

1) I don't think I ever used "rational" as "rationale". You're just being condescending for no decent reason there. Why? Can we have a discussion without that?

 

2) I disagree that it would be the same as saying, "Heavenly horses are the hands: oh gosh, Max has TWO hands..." etc. It's not the same at all. What you've said would be completely idiotic, and in my opinion isn't anything like what I suggested!

 

Now, you may view me as completely idiotic, but the fact of the matter is that my argument was never THAT dimwitted.

 

3) Let me ask a few questions: why is the point below the nose named "mountain stream"? Why are the hands called "heavenly horses"? Why are the two points of the inner eyebrows referred to as "heavenly blossoms" and why is the area between the eyebrows named the "heavenly court"? Are the names completely meaningless, or might there actually be a reason why they were called those things? I seriously hope you answer these questions.

 

Because it's interesting that the way I view the poem actually makes some sense of why these names are what they are. "Mountain stream" refers to the purity of the heavenly energy, as well as discussing the body like a mountain. "Heavenly horses" could be thought to refer to the guiding effect that the hands have on this energy...how it pulls this force down through the mountain. "Twin blossoms" could refer to the relaxation and opening sensation necessary to open the "heavenly court" between the eyes.

 

These are just my ideas...they may be wrong, but at least they make a little bit of sense. Is there another explanation for why these points are named what they are?

 

Let me ask you: how can you say "I agree 'heavenly horses' are the hands" ? On the base of WHAT ?

 

Well the article says so. Why should I not trust the commentators on that point? It's just a clue I have to work with.

 

So now it could be that you are right and commentators from Maoshan Tradition in the Daoist Canon are wrong ?

Are you kidding me or yourself ?!?

 

Are you kidding me, that you're saying some of the highest revelations in the Maoshan tradition are to massage the point under the nose? Obviously anyone who came up with that idea wasn't exposed to what the poet's actual meaning was.

 

Not saying that I've actually understood it. I just have some different ideas about what it could mean.

 

What "effect" are you talking about ?

The energetic one from the crown your fantasy has made up and that you explain in your message or the one from the text ?

 

I haven't made up what I've experienced...why are you so rude when you simply disagree? It's rude to assume I've made something up from fantasy, like a delusional, spiritual-experience-needing idiot. I'm truly not that way at all.

 

If that's how you view me...then I will just stop. We've already discussed the article so there's no point to continue that type of discussion. Offending eachother will really get us nowhere.

 

It suffices to read a little more of Russel's article to understand that - and I quote:

 

QUOTE

We also know that the poem was part of a series of revelations begun on the thirteenth of that same month, concerning methods of counteracting weakness of sight and hearing, especially in old age.

 

So "And come to visit the home of Great Perfection" was simply about counteracting weakness of sight and vision?

 

Really, I think a lot of people have missed the point that the poem was trying to convey. Even in the article, Russel admits that not much is known. They are going at it purely from a scholarly point of view, rather than a pragmatic or experiential view. They're connecting the dots, when not all of the dots are there yet...

 

I apologize for being so direct, Scotty, but hopefully my comments can help get you back on track.

 

Yes, I am now compelled to be utterly disrespectful to everyone who I disagree with...and wish to now close my mind off to anything other than what I think is true, and/or what scholars write in articles.

 

Just kidding...yes, I'll admit that I may be way off in my interpretation. I have no delusions about being absolutely right. It's just another way of looking at the poem, which to be clear, hasn't been totally understood yet by anyone.

[Sloppy Zhang]

It's only work if you're trying to work it all out.

 

By work I meant if it takes several people to introduce new facts to finish a story, the marketing doesn't do a good job.

 

And again - exact wording, historical accuracies and scholarly explanations is the polar opposite of what Kunlun (for me) is about.

 

Good marketing presents what the product is in an aesthetically appealing way, but it also gives a factual account of the information. Part of the challenge of marketing is how can you market your product in an interesting way without resorting to using misdirection on the customer or leaving out certain details to make your story more "snazzy".

 

If you have to resort to such methods.... that's not a very good job of marketing, and slightly dishonest.

 

Ever heard a good story-teller transmit a fascinating story? Ever read a computer manual?

 

When I want to be entertained, I'll listen to a story teller.

 

But when I want to find out how to use a new application on my computer, I don't want to hear about the genius minds that forged the program deep in the sacred mountain of fire, imbuing the program with the forces of the five elements and harmonizing the cosmic forces of yin and yang, I want to hear the facts, step by step, cut, dried, and USEFUL, for how to run my program.

 

And if I'm interested in buying the program, as much as I think it's cool that it is perfectly yin/yang balanced and can harmonize peacefully with the five elements and energizes my chi channels, it's also good to know how it will integrate with the programs I already have.

 

The story-teller and the author of the computer manual would experience Kunlun very differently. The logical reason-focused person would have a harder time of letting go.

 

I much rather have a drink with the story teller.

 

Let's not assume that just because someone writes a computer manual that they are a boring person. If you are hoping to be entertained by a computer manual, you will be disappointed.... but that's not because the manual was boring. If your computer was broken and you couldn't get any work done but you found a solution in the manual, I'm sure you'd be overjoyed. So..... yeah.

 

Here's an example of what I meant: on the website it mentions stuff like Max studied with a Chinese master from the age of six. I was like, wow, okay, that's really cool. But then I saw he wasn't Chinese, so I was like, "well.... was he half Chinese? I mean was he in China? How does a six year old meet a Chinese grandmaster in China?" Someone on THIS forum actually had those same questions. It took someone ELSE to come in and say, "oh, well see the master had fled China and met Max elsewhere...." and all that good stuff (but even then I've still heard some varying details).

 

No, it's not the marketing job to give all the details, but it IS the marketing's job to inform people and not give the wrong impressions. Unfortunately, the impression a lot of people get is somehow a six year old white kid tracked down a Chinese grandmaster and started cultivation! There's nothing wrong with saying, "the young Max met a master who had sense fled from China" or something like that. It's not that hard, but the fact that it's not being done sends up red flags.

 

And if Kunlun is truly as great as everyone is saying, then I'll say it again, it's being unnecessarily held back by poor marketing and poor communication. No, you don't have to make it so cut and dry that it's just a list of dates and events, but you do have to accurately present your stuff, at least if you want people to trust you enough to see what it's all about.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Mal]

And if Kunlun is truly as great as everyone is saying, then I'll say it again, it's being unnecessarily held back by poor marketing and poor communication.

 

It's their choice, and if that is the way they chose to present Kunlun, what can we "do" about it. BTW I agree, but I really don't care that much.

 

Although I like watching people debate it all the time

[Trunk]

(beyond deciding if something is at-all-worth-while...)

Every school has its +'s & -'s.

[YMWong]

Scotty,

 

quite a bit of the maoshan tradition is 'medical' in nature, and this is history not wishful thinking.

Some of the techniques utilized by the early masters has been passed down to lay doctors and are still employed in chinese medicine.

For instance, and the specific of the poem cited, there is a traditional system called 俯按山源 (fu an shanyuan - bend and press 'mountain spring') that is still employed by masseurs in China.

 

You are of course entitled to read anything in the poem.

 

Names have of course a specific meaning. Some names are common to various Daoist Schools, some others are specific to a specific tradition - and you can know the ACTUAL meaning of those names ONLY if you belong to that specific tradition. Similarly to any technical jargon in ANY specific field of studies, a doctor will understand the medical jargon, an engineer will understand the technical jargon - I don't think that's hard to understand, no ?

 

If that was not enough, you superimpose your own culture and its background on a totally different one trying to interpretate a poem in translation: that's obviously clear in your various attempts.

 

I could go on, but if what I said was not enough I guess anything more would just be a waste of your and my time.

 

Be well

 

YM

[Sloppy Zhang]

It's their choice, and if that is the way they chose to present Kunlun, what can we "do" about it.

 

I mean, that's one of the things that put me off of Kunlun, to be honest. Like I said in a previous post, I've been on the receiving end of fraudulent martial artists, so I do some background research. I've read all the way through pretty much every Kunlun debate thread on here just trying to get the info. More and more "facts" about kunlun come out, like in Cameron's posts, and I think it was someone else, Mantra86 maybe that was another person on the Kunlun side.

 

All of their posts were very informative.... but they painted a picture of Kunlun and Max that was TOTALLY different than what the advertising on the website had painted. I went back and re-read the website stuff. No, it never actually said that Max studied in CHINA when he was 6 years old... though I (and obviously many others) had walked away with that impression and it needed to be corrected.

 

There's nothing wrong with the Kunlun picture that is painted on these forums posts, it was very cool, inclusive, and seemed like a really good system to get into... but honestly, why did the marketing have to conflict so much with that? It made me uneasy, and I went somewhere else and now am practicing other things.

 

Maybe down the road I will come back to Kunlun, or maybe down the road I'll reach a spot that I could have gotten with Kunlun or with something else, who knows?

 

BTW I agree, but I really don't care that much.

 

Good enough for me

 

Although I like watching people debate it all the time

 

Glad I could be the source of some amusement

 

(beyond deciding if something is at-all-worth-while...)

Every school has its +'s & -'s.

 

Well of course that's true, but people might not even want to stick around and find out what they are if they aren't sure if they can even trust you to begin with since they seem to find different information everywhere they go.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Cameron]

I can sympathize with people getting turned off from the marketing. But to tell the truth, this was the original aspect of the practice that pulled me in. If you read my earlier posts before the first workshop I did, you can find other Taobums like Yoda saying things like..you take spontaneous yogic postures and speak in toungues!!!???

 

You have to check that out!

 

So this initial excitment around Max and Kunlun definetly served a purpouse imo. And Chris is an artist so there is an artistic aspect to what he does. If you meet him it all starts to make sense

 

But in any case, I support whatever marketing they do. It obviously is working. I don't think it should really matter that a couple people who post on Taobums arent fans of the marketing when you see a room packed full of practitioners at the workshops.

 

Bottom line, I think they know what they are doing. And I don't have any questions about there intergrity. But if you do have questions about there integrity just practice something else

Edited January 30, 2009 by Cameron

[Spirit Ape]

Theres a sucker on every corner.... Hows that Mal?

[三江源]

.

Edited March 11, 2015 by 三江源

[freeform]

Sloppy,

 

I respect that you've had a bad time with sham martial artists and so have a need for clear marketing and information before you commit yourself again. I think I should've been a little more sensitive to this in you.

 

It's been mentioned many many times that Kunlun is unlike most available Taoist practices. It's really much more akin to entertainment than to computer programming. I'm not trying to be controversial - or just disagreeing with you for the sake of it. In Kunlun practice you're far more likely to laugh like a maniac than have clever philosophical thoughts. Most practitioners would agree.

 

The thing is - trying to gather all this information does take a lot of work, a lot of time and effort. I suspect there is a part of you that enjoys this process. It's good to acknowledge that. You could make it easier for yourself too - if you have any interest just go to the free lecture, ask the questions that you want answered and then see if you'd like to go to the workshop. I'm sure you've spent far longer trawling through these posts, than it would take to just go and see the man directly.

 

It's your choice man!

 

I agree the marketing isn't great, but I prefer a great practice to great marketing!

 

I've come to think that the marketing just isnt aimed at people like us who know stuff about this field. I think it is aimed at people who have no esoteric knowledge and no experience of practises.

 

I think you just hit the nail on the head, cat!!

[mgd]

...

Edited August 10, 2009 by mgd

[Mal]

Glad I could be the source of some amusement

After a year of kunlun and now KAP I find EVERYTHING amusing

 

Theres a sucker on every corner.... Hows that Mal?

Dude you will get banned....again rofl

 

I've come to think that the marketing just isnt aimed at people like us who know stuff about this field. I think it is aimed at people who have no esoteric knowledge and no experience of practises.

Agreed, advertorial marketing just seems to be a requirement of the net these days....

 

I agree the marketing isn't great, but I prefer a great practice to great marketing!

Yes, it a shame to see people "judging the book by the cover"

 

Anyway...the +'s and the -'s...leave it to Trunk to whittle it down to simple.

Yes, much love for Trunk, and all of you 'bums

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, it a shame to see people "judging the book by the cover"

 

Hey now, I said I wasn't gonna make any decisions about the practice! I even said I might end up revisiting it and doing it again someday. In fact, every time a Kunlun thread pops up I think about it again, but I'm exploring other avenues first, you know.

 

I just think that's it's important to be able to express yourself, and your teachings, clearly. Or, in some cases, you should be able to express another person clearly. If you give people the impression that someone has been travelling to the deserted mountains of China since they were six, when in reality he's had teachers living in Hawaii.... you know, it makes me suspicious.

 

I don't have anything against where people live. I don't have anything against what race they are, they don't gotta be some Chinese dude living in the mountains. If it's a white guy in Hawaii that's fine. Even if it's the student of a Mao Shan grandmaster in Hawaii, that's cool with me.... but you could have just said so. But instead you go and say, "masters from around the world and teachings from deep in the mountains and monasteries far away from society." You know the images that kind of message is designed to evoke within pepole, and it's misleading.... quite a bit so (even with some of the far out places and people that Max has met), and the fact that you chose some fantastic, though slightly misleading image over... well... reality.... that's unsettling. Why not just tell people how it is, instead of being vague about it and trying to sound grandiose?

 

It's not the true story I have a problem with.... it's the fact that you weren't up front with it to begin with. Makes me wonder and makes me check out other avenues before Kunlun. If it takes me a little extra time, oh well, I don't really care. Just one of those things I guess.

 

[edit]

 

Here's an example using a movie.

 

I saw the trailer for V for Vandetta, saw some cool fight sequences and some explosions. The trailer was like, "from the writers of the Matrix." I was like, awesome, this will have good fight scenes.

 

I watch the movie... the ONLY fight scenes were the ones from the trailer, then there was nearly two hours in the middle of the movie of social and political commentary.... I'm not saying the commentary was bad, or that the questions they asked were unworthy.... but I was expecting an action movie. I told my friends before they saw it that if they were expecting an action movie like the Matrix, they weren't going to get it. They loved the movie. But I will forever be disappointed by the movie.

 

Why?

 

Because the marketing sold me an image and then didn't deliver on that image. If they had told me that it was a social/political commentary with action thrown in the background, that would have been cool and I would have been happy with the movie, my friends and family who saw it with that image certainly liked it. But I thought it was going to be an action movie........

 

You don't have to lie or be vague about it. Just tell me what the system is and what I can expect to get. If you sell me on all this mystic far out stuff and have the image in my head of some guy trekking out in the middle of the desert when he's 6 years old, but then I found out he met his teacher in some modern military base or in a school in Hawaii....... I'm not saying the teachings are bad, I'm not saying the teachers are less worthy because of where they live, I'm saying that you sold me on something that wasn't the truth. Just tell me the truth, and if you don't... it makes me look at you suspiciously

Edited January 30, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[mgd]

Why not just tell people how it is, instead of being vague about it and trying to sound grandiose?

 

It's not the true story I have a problem with.... it's the fact that you weren't up front with it to begin with.

 

 

Straight up all around would have been refreshing and very much appreciated. It still would be.

[Mal]

Hey now, I said I wasn't gonna make any decisions about the practice! I even said I might end up revisiting it and doing it again someday. In fact, every time a Kunlun thread pops up I think about it again, but I'm exploring other avenues first, you know.

 

All good. But a lot of people (generally, wasn't specifically at you) could be turned away from kunlun because of the reasons stated. Which is a shame as you can get a LOT out of kunlun.

 

But it's "marketing tactics" generates huge traffic here and like you said every time there is a thread there are people thinking about it. Has there ever been a "new" system that gets this many threads over time?

 

What's that quote "any publicity is good publicity?"

 

p.s.

How is Chris btw have not seen Mantra68 here for a bit. Any kunloonies feel free to say Hi from MArLey

[Sloppy Zhang]

What's that quote "any publicity is good publicity?"

 

that's a good point. I just saw a listing a couple weeks ago about how much money American Idol rejects got. William Heung has gotten millions of dollars from his terrible remakes of songs so... I guess he turned out okay.