Mantak Chia

[Sloppy Zhang]

Okay so a couple days ago I posted a thread about good books on daoist meditation/practice. A few books by B.K. Frantzis came up, and those are all good and interesting. But one thing that comes up with Frantzis a lot is that he teaches a "water method" which is supposedly different from the "fire method" that a lot of other things seem to tall under.

 

Now there also seem to be a lot of stuff out there by Mantak Chia, but I've heard some mixed reviews and stuff about him, what he teaches, safe/dangerous, effective/ineffective, yadda yadda. I don't know how much discussion has gone on here about him in the past, so I will just ask a straight forward question: what do you think of Mantak Chia and what he teaches? Is it good? Safe? Effective?

 

I think I should also include the fact that right now I am not in a position to find/travel to meet a teacher. Through karate I've been exposed to zen meditation (like zazen), and I keep that up, but to be honest that's really the extent of what I have been practicing. I'd like to take on some practices in addition to that, and expand into energy work and stuff, of which I am pretty much a beginner.

 

So Frantzis' stuff seems really nice and good, heard lots of good stuff about him. But Mantak Chia also comes up a lot, and some people have put what he teaches on kind of the "opposite end of the spectrum" in more of the "fire category", but then it's been brought up that he teaches kan and li, but then people say that's totally different from what "water method" that Frantzis is associated with, and it all gets really confusing for someone not caught up in the politics and who's who and what's what so....

 

I need your help guys!

 

(and as a side note, has anyone heard of a practice called 18 Buddha Hands? What it is/where it came from/effectiveness? I figured as long as I was asking questions I might as well ask this one too... sorry! )

 

And then I've also heard of John Chang, who I've seen brought up a lot, but I've never gotten the full story on him, so could someone please fill me in on him as well?

 

(I know a lot of questions... I've had these for a while and I've been looking around on my own a bit, but I figure it's best to hear things "right from the taobums' mouths" )

Edited December 9, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[Spirit Ape]

Nothing wrong with Mantaks information if you already have a background in Cultivation or Qi kung you can see alot of information there also maybe visit one of his instructors to get better knowledge if you are not sure?

 

Ape

[fiveelementtao]

I recommend Chia's stuff to people looking for a general introductory energy system. If you have no teacher I think it's worth a shot. After you get more in depth, you may want to find a live teacher. Many on this board have used Chia's stuff with great success. It works well with the stuff I learned, which is not easy to do. This water method you mention sounds interesting to me though...

[rain]

I recommend Chia's stuff to people looking for a general introductory energy system. If you have no teacher I think it's worth a shot. After you get more in depth, you may want to find a live teacher. Many on this board have used Chia's stuff with great success. It works well with the stuff I learned, which is not easy to do. This water method you mention sounds interesting to me though...

 

Agree, Chia is nice... and he's alive. LOL.

[宁]

I'd say Chia's system has a great disadvantage: you cannot get further than first or second base without getting deeper into research about what the heck you are practicing. If you are the kind of person that is rather to practice some stuff without "overcomplicating", it's not going to work too great... sure, you'll have some minor improvements here and there, health, emotions, mind etc... if that's what you're after...

If you want something more, a lot of research needs to be involved in it. And it takes a most flexible mind, because sometimes you can go deeper into fields of information that have no apparent link with what you practice.

 

that's my 二分 on the subject

 

 

 

also you can follow the link in my signature

 

 

L

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'd say Chia's system has a great disadvantage: you cannot get further than first or second base without getting deeper into research about what the heck you are practicing. If you are the kind of person that is rather to practice some stuff without "overcomplicating", it's not going to work too great... sure, you'll have some minor improvements here and there, health, emotions, mind etc... if that's what you're after...

If you want something more, a lot of research needs to be involved in it. And it takes a most flexible mind, because sometimes you can go deeper into fields of information that have no apparent link with what you practice.

 

Oh boy, you have no idea

 

Research doesn't bother me, doesn't matter how long, I enjoy it! And don't worry, I'm finding new ways to flex my mind every single day.

 

So just tell me what I need to do and I am there!

 

that's my 二分 on the subject

 

also you can follow the link in my signature

L

 

谢谢

Edited December 9, 2008 by Sloppy Zhang

[markern]

A common opinion about Chias stuff is that there is a huge lack of stilness/emptiness/inner silence, whatever you like to call it, type of meditation/cultivation. Too much activity, too much forcing, too much breaking through, too much fire. There is also a good bit of criticism about sexual cultivation being taught too early and poorly and also criticism of his Iron Shirt Qi Gong. In large part a lot of this has been corrected by Michael Winn wich teaches the same basic formulas, Fusion, Kan and Li etc, as he learnt from Chia but he has modified them to bring in more of a water element and not force things as much as Chia does. Winn also teaches the sexual techniques a bit later because he wants you to master more of the preliminaries to be able to handle the sexual energy well.

 

The lack of stillness/emptiness meditation in CHias system can be

corrected by practicing zazen in addition to it. I asked Chia about combining Zen with his system and he said it was perfectly fine. One of his teachers, Ajan Al (DIrk Al) now also teaches Vipassana combined with the orbit and chanting at Chias retreat center. Doing a lot of Chias inner smile meditation is also a way of correcting the stilness aspect and helps a good bit with the potential problems with the sexual practices.

 

A third problem with Chias and Winns stuff is that it is so dependt on your ability to do complex visualisation and lead qi with your mind. A lot of people just don`t have the concentration needed to start such practices and need some sort of straight forward concentration practice first. Through zazen you already have that.

 

Several people on this forum has said that chias way of opening the micocosmic orbit is not good. I think they recomend a guy named charles Luk but ask arround about that. They also recomend the sexual techniques of a guy I think is called Dr. Lin or Li or something like that. You are probably better of asking arround about this and using these two guys in stead of Chia for doing the orbit and for managing sexual energy. There is also a member on the bums that has a site with lots of stuff on correcting the problems with Chias sexual practices.

 

The fact that you practice karate means you are in good physical shape. Many of those who get problems with Chias stuff are in bad shape.

 

A question that is often raised about a system is wether or not it leads to enlightenment or not. Dirk Al (Ajan Al) told me he reached first enlightenment while he was a budhist monk in Thailand. After a while he lost it again but after doing Chias formulas he got back again to exactly the same place. In other words it does lead al the way. That can not necesarily be said about all the other systems out there.

 

All in all I would say that Chias will most likely be a good experience for you as long as you spend a fair amount of time doing zazen or similar stuff on the side, as long as you realy prioritize the inner smile, you spend your time doing all the preliminary stuff like healing sounds until you are well prepared for advanced stuff, and as long as you research the criticism of Iron shirt and the sexual stuff (on this forum++) and correct it on the basis of that criticism in your own practice. If you go with Michael Winn instead it will as I said be more less fire based and less forcing and in my impression simply better thought through and better taught. Many learn a bit from both as the core of the formulas are the same and a lot of the additional stuff such as healing sounds and inner smile are the same. Winn has written 7 or so of Chias books for him.

 

You should think through wether this whole style of meditation is for you. There is a lot of visualisation, leading chi around the body with your mind and in general micromanaging of chi. It is aproaching enlightenment like an engineer. Some people like that sort of aproach while some people don`t. I prefer Vipassana, Zen and those styles that don`t control as much of what is happening, which isen`t as complex, which let things unfold more naturaly by just doing a very straight forward meditation and which brings you forward through insight and not managing chi. One option could be to just keep doing zazen (under a good master) and find some qigong or pranayama that realy moves your practice forward by generating chi and helping you go deep and get great concentration and cleanse your system. AYP (aypsite.org) is another option which is extreemly simple, very powerful and almost problem free.

 

Another problem with Chias system (and Winns) is that there is absolutely no emphasis on psychology what so ever. That is a huge problem in my opinion but also something that can be corrected by yourself.

Edited December 9, 2008 by markern

[宁]

Oh boy, you have no idea

 

Research doesn't bother me, doesn't matter how long, I enjoy it! And don't worry, I'm finding new ways to flex my mind every single day.

 

So just tell me what I need to do and I am there!

谢谢

 

Buyoung xie.

 

There's always going to be criticism regarding whatever, it's easier...

 

Don't worry, if you study it well enough, and find a good teacher or instructor, it will be the greatest investment in your life. Mantak Chia is an honest guy after all... every single practice he put out there, works and gets the results. I've seen it too many times to doubt it.

The tricky part is to follow the exact instructions of Master Chia, not to gamble with practice. At least in the beggining years. Just follow the thin red line.

About the research part... it has to come from a personal involvement into a project or collaboration with your teacher regarding the practices. There were many, and still are many. I can't tell what will get you through... I guess a ton of luck will do it

 

 

Good luck

 

 

L1

[Sloppy Zhang]

A common opinion about Chias stuff is that there is a huge lack of stilness/emptiness/inner silence, whatever you like to call it, type of meditation/cultivation. Too much activity, too much forcing, too much breaking through, too much fire. There is also a good bit of criticism about sexual cultivation being taught too early and poorly and also criticism of his Iron Shirt Qi Gong. In large part a lot of this has been corrected by Michael Winn wich teaches the same basic formulas, Fusion, Kan and Li etc, as he learnt from Chia but he has modified them to bring in more of a water element and not force things as much as Chia does. Winn also teaches the sexual techniques a bit later because he wants you to master more of the preliminaries to be able to handle the sexual energy well.

 

The lack of stillness/emptiness meditation in CHias system can be

corrected by practicing zazen in addition to it. I asked Chia about combining Zen with his system and he said it was perfectly fine. One of his teachers, Ajan Al (DIrk Al) now also teaches Vipassana combined with the orbit and chanting at Chias retreat center. Doing a lot of Chias inner smile meditation is also a way of correcting the stilness aspect and helps a good bit with the potential problems with the sexual practices.

 

A third problem with Chias and Winns stuff is that it is so dependt on your ability to do complex visualisation and lead qi with your mind. A lot of people just don`t have the concentration needed to start such practices and need some sort of straight forward concentration practice first. Through zazen you already have that.

 

Several people on this forum has said that chias way of opening the micocosmic orbit is not good. I think they recomend a guy named charles Luk but ask arround about that. They also recomend the sexual techniques of a guy I think is called Dr. Lin or Li or something like that. You are probably better of asking arround about this and using these two guys in stead of Chia for doing the orbit and for managing sexual energy. There is also a member on the bums that has a site with lots of stuff on correcting the problems with Chias sexual practices.

 

The fact that you practice karate means you are in good physical shape. Many of those who get problems with Chias stuff are in bad shape.

 

A question that is often raised about a system is wether or not it leads to enlightenment or not. Dirk Al (Ajan Al) told me he reached first enlightenment while he was a budhist monk in Thailand. After a while he lost it again but after doing Chias formulas he got back again to exactly the same place. In other words it does lead al the way. That can not necesarily be said about all the other systems out there.

 

All in all I would say that Chias will most likely be a good experience for you as long as you spend a fair amount of time doing zazen or similar stuff on the side, as long as you realy prioritize the inner smile, you spend your time doing all the preliminary stuff like healing sounds until you are well prepared for advanced stuff, and as long as you research the criticism of Iron shirt and the sexual stuff (on this forum++) and correct it on the basis of that criticism in your own practice. If you go with Michael Winn instead it will as I said be more less fire based and less forcing and in my impression simply better thought through and better taught. Many learn a bit from both as the core of the formulas are the same and a lot of the additional stuff such as healing sounds and inner smile are the same. Winn has written 7 or so of Chias books for him.

 

You should think through wether this whole style of meditation is for you. There is a lot of visualisation, leading chi around the body with your mind and in general micromanaging of chi. It is aproaching enlightenment like an engineer. Some people like that sort of aproach while some people don`t. I prefer Vipassana, Zen and those styles that don`t control as much of what is happening, which isen`t as complex, which let things unfold more naturaly by just doing a very straight forward meditation and which brings you forward through insight and not managing chi. One option could be to just keep doing zazen (under a good master) and find some qigong or pranayama that realy moves your practice forward by generating chi and helping you go deep and get great concentration and cleanse your system. AYP (aypsite.org) is another option which is extreemly simple, very powerful and almost problem free.

 

Another problem with Chias system (and Winns) is that there is absolutely no emphasis on psychology what so ever. That is a huge problem in my opinion but also something that can be corrected by yourself.

 

Hey thanks for that evaluation

 

I've been looking for an assessment that was as good as that, seriously, thanks!

 

Buyoung xie.

 

There's always going to be criticism regarding whatever, it's easier...

 

Don't worry, if you study it well enough, and find a good teacher or instructor, it will be the greatest investment in your life. Mantak Chia is an honest guy after all... every single practice he put out there, works and gets the results. I've seen it too many times to doubt it.

The tricky part is to follow the exact instructions of Master Chia, not to gamble with practice. At least in the beggining years. Just follow the thin red line.

About the research part... it has to come from a personal involvement into a project or collaboration with your teacher regarding the practices. There were many, and still are many. I can't tell what will get you through... I guess a ton of luck will do it

Good luck

L1

 

Thanks Little1. He's got a lot of stuff out there though, and I think that one of the issues is that people don't do it in order. I'm not an expert, but this is just some of the stuff I've seen on like book reviews and stuff. They mention that he writes a lot about certain things in one book, but doesn't write about them in an advanced book. I think maaaaaybe it's because the advanced books kind of assume you know the basics but I guess that's too much of a stretch for most people

 

So where does one begin with Chia's material?

[Creation]

Here is the suggested progression for Chia's stuff. Most of these have a book and dvd (available from pacifictao.com) Unless otherwise indicated the titles of the book/dvd are the practice name.

 

Level 1. Inner smile, six healing sounds (SHS book not out yet)

 

Level 1b. (optional) Chi self massage, Tao Yin (Book: Energy Balance through the Tao)

 

Level 2. Microcosmic Orbit (books: Awaken Healing Energy, Healing Light of the Tao; DVDs: Guided Sitting Meditation, Awaken Healing Light)

 

Level 3. Iron Shirt Chi Kung

 

With some experience with Iron Shirt, and a good grasp on the rest, the other stuff opens up. Iron shirt 2-3 (tendon/marrow stuff), sexual stuff, tai chi, basic alchemy (fusion 1-3), and a LOT of auxiliary stuff.

 

 

Winn breaks it down into qigong fundamentals 1-4, 1 being his version of Level 1 plus some, 2 being MCO in a supposedly safer, gentler way than Chia, 3-4 are the supposedly safer version of Chia's iron shirt 1-3. Then he has courses on sexual stuff, fusion 1-3, and auxilary stuff like a non-martial tai chi form. These courses are in the form of eBook+CD+DVD packages available from http://www.healingtaousa.com/

 

This is from my research into the matter. I have not purchased or practiced most of this. Just what I called Chia's Level 1 and 1b. And it's pretty good. If you want to be really thorough and take a more yin/water route, Winn's stuff looks great, better than Chia's. But I can't comment on its actual quality. If anyone can I would appreciate it, as I am looking into maybe getting some of it (obviously ).

 

Somebody mentioned this earlier but was cryptic about it. So I'll be explicit.

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/

Great info on all most all things related to Chia's system, brought to you by our very own Taobum brother Trunk.

 

Anybody read Chia's Secret Teachings of the Tao Te Ching? That looks pretty interesting.

 

Some

Edited December 10, 2008 by Creation

[Sloppy Zhang]

Here is the suggested progression for Chia's stuff. Most of these have a book and dvd (available from pacifictao.com) Unless otherwise indicated the titles of the book/dvd are the practice name.

 

Level 1. Inner smile, six healing sounds (SHS book not out yet)

 

Level 1b. (optional) Chi self massage, Tao Yin (Book: Energy Balance through the Tao)

 

Level 2. Microcosmic Orbit (books: Awaken Healing Energy, Healing Light of the Tao; DVDs: Guided Sitting Meditation, Awaken Healing Light)

 

Level 3. Iron Shirt Chi Kung

 

With some experience with Iron Shirt, and a good grasp on the rest, the other stuff opens up. Iron shirt 2-3 (tendon/marrow stuff), sexual stuff, tai chi, basic alchemy (fusion 1-3), and a LOT of auxiliary stuff.

Winn breaks it down into qigong fundamentals 1-4, 1 being his version of Level 1 plus some, 2 being MCO in a supposedly safer, gentler way than Chia, 3-4 are the supposedly safer version of Chia's iron shirt 1-3. Then he has courses on sexual stuff, fusion 1-3, and auxilary stuff like a non-martial tai chi form. These courses are in the form of eBook+CD+DVD packages available from http://www.healingtaousa.com/

 

This is from my research into the matter. I have not purchased or practiced most of this. Just what I called Chia's Level 1 and 1b. And it's pretty good. If you want to be really thorough and take a more yin/water route, Winn's stuff looks great, better than Chia's. But I can't comment on its actual quality. If anyone can I would appreciate it, as I am looking into maybe getting some of it (obviously ).

 

Somebody mentioned this earlier but was cryptic about it. So I'll be explicit.

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/

Great info on all most all things related to Chia's system, brought to you by our very own Taobum brother Trunk.

 

Anybody read Chia's Secret Teachings of the Tao Te Ching? That looks pretty interesting.

 

Some

 

Thanks for the book recommendations!

 

Also, thanks for the link to the other website.

[宁]

You need enough brownie points to find a really good teacher. That's the best start. Just like loosing your virginity, it doesn't matter how long you have to wait, as long as you find your "true love"

 

I seek the man, not the method.

 

L1