Secret of the Golden Flower

[AugustLeo]

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[Trunk]

at risk of repeating what has already been said, ... my basic understanding of what they mean by "turning the light around":

 

Wilhelm's basically says that you should take some of the light from the upper center and circulate it around.

 

Cleary's that your usually outward directed awareness should be concentrated into the center, where it refines and unifies with The Big Gold Light.

 

Are we on the same page here? Should I just go back and read the 126 posts of this thread from the beginning?

 

Both of the above approaches (even if they're not what the books are saying) has it's place and is helpful, ime.

 

Trunk

Edited March 24, 2009 by Trunk

[AugustLeo]

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[Guest winpro07]

until the physical body transmutes, 'light' means of the third ventricle. Circulation is flowing of the spinal fluid. The 'Light' is received by the pineal and transmitted as neural signal (electric) to the major organs and glands. The palaces of the brain receive the magnetic signal of the pineals transduced light and deliver this signal to the caverns (voids) of the body in several potential ways. I say potential because the alchemy may start in several different ways and completes its course from any... One way is direct-magnetic -,meaning the magnetic field of one chakra/endocrine intersects the body of the next in line or farther. The relationship of the water of life(brain fluid) and the spirit (blood) is most important -the place where they both meet. In the end all the routes of the circulation of light are valid and a part of the whole. Magnetic flows to electric. There is a relationship between the three emanation black light, neutral force and sexual energy.....

Warm water rises, cool water descends. The warm water of the body has special properties. It actually levitate

 

The difference in enlightenment is in the flowing of the water of life...how much...weak life force is weak circulation

[AugustLeo]

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[Trunk]

Cleary is admittedly translating from a Northern Taoist Complete Reality School and a Ch'an Buddhism perspective and tends to downplay the 'Taoist energetics' of the Southern School.

Serene concentration in the center (which integrates with The Big Light) is a skillful means that deals with the energetics without chasing them around. imho.

[AugustLeo]

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[april]

[AugustLeo]

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[april]

Okay. From what you've written, I understand that you choose not to provide additional detail about what you call the backward-flowing method. That's fine. No point belaboring this topic any further. Thanks and best wishes.

Best I can summarize it is by saying that during the You do it! phase, you spend a lot of time watching what is going on with the breath, trying to optimize it according to the various precepts and techniques you've uncovered. If you do this successfully, then you progress to the It does you! phase. For me, this phase is more about watching the energy that's taken over your being. The breathing should now be working on its own, and should be less of a preoccupation.

 

Again, I have written a lot about slowing down the breath to the point where, in a quiet room, you cannot hear it with the ear. I believe the SGF explains this fairly well. I tried it and it produced results.

[Sunya]

at risk of repeating what has already been said, ... my basic understanding of what they mean by "turning the light around":

 

Wilhelm's basically says that you should take some of the light from the upper center and circulate it around.

 

Cleary's that your usually outward directed awareness should be concentrated into the center, where it refines and unifies with The Big Gold Light.

 

Are we on the same page here? Should I just go back and read the 126 posts of this thread from the beginning?

 

Both of the above approaches (even if they're not what the books are saying) has it's place and is helpful, ime.

 

Trunk

 

 

I got this too, Cleary's was very Buddhist and in line with Insight, bare awareness technique. trying to find the Self. while Wilhelm's (and Semple's) seems to be more energetic. i think an important question here is are the goals the same?

[AugustLeo]

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[Adam West]

Hi all!

 

I believe the below link has been posted before on Bums, however, perhaps not in this thread; and some key players from this thread may not have read it yet. I have not had a chance to read all of it yet, as I am busy with school. I was struck by it however, and have been in contact with the translator, who seems to be a Longmen initiate.

 

http://hk.geocities.com/akrishi0/goflower/eng/index.htm

 

I wonder if any of the interested parties in this thread might like to read it and comment on it according to the ongoing themes of this thread - practice method, effectiveness, lived experience in working with the method and the metaphysical model assumed in its presentation?

 

I for one would be most interested to hear peoples thoughts on it!

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Adam West

[Sunya]

Eva Wong, on the translations of The Secret of the Golden Flower (the emphasis is mine), from The Shambala Guide to Taoism:

 

 

Cheers.

 

So i guess this is the part where we all go off and find a master and get to it..

 

 

[bakeneko]

Here's what Thomas Cleary wrote in the afterword to his translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower:

---------------------

 

 

 

My 2 cents: I respect Cleary as a translator, but this bashing of Wilhelm is getting on my nerves.

Did actually one of the critics of Wilhelms translation (including Cleary) read the original German text?

Wilhelms version was translated from a Chinese source which admittedly was patched together from 2 texts, and then translated again into English.

So of course it is in the end different from what Cleary translates (maybe even from another source copy).

Btw: From my reading of the German text, it was quite clear to me that a good deal is about the microcosmic orbit. But so I wonder quite much, why it is so difficult to have children then. No one seems to say this about the MCO. Or am I wrong? Can someone clarify? (Hey, I plan on having some mixed German-Chinese kids, before i become immortal )

[AugustLeo]

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[Long Yun]

Mr. Semple,

 

Please don't take this as a question of your achievements. I have read your first book and I have a great amount of respect for you and what you have made available.

 

That being said, I have some questions. Did you experience everything mentioned in the Golden Flower? Did you see a mandala, as Darin here on taobums did? Is it possible that you uncovered a method of Kundalini awakening in a text that was meant to do something else, or possibly just what you discovered plus more?

 

As always, I appreciate your willingness to share your experience. I look forward to your reply.

 

Thank you,

Myles

[Sunya]

Mr. Semple,

 

Please don't take this as a question of your achievements. I have read your first book and I have a great amount of respect for you and what you have made available.

 

That being said, I have some questions. Did you experience everything mentioned in the Golden Flower? Did you see a mandala, as Darin here on taobums did? Is it possible that you uncovered a method of Kundalini awakening in a text that was meant to do something else, or possibly just what you discovered plus more?

 

As always, I appreciate your willingness to share your experience. I look forward to your reply.

 

Thank you,

Myles

 

 

I humbly second those questions. I was thinking on similar lines..it seems to me that the goal of this text is enlightenment (i've only have the Cleary ver). with all due respect to Mr Semple, i've read both books, and it seems that what he is talking about is a purification, a goal more health related than anything.

[AugustLeo]

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[Trunk]

Cleary's process as two part:

 

 

1. Concentrate in the center and refine.

 

 

 

2. Refinement culminates in concentration integrating with Openness.

 

 

 

My graphical two cents.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Trunk

[AugustLeo]

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[april]

I humbly second those questions. I was thinking on similar lines..it seems to me that the goal of this text is enlightenment (i've only have the Cleary ver). with all due respect to Mr Semple, i've read both books, and it seems that what he is talking about is a purification, a goal more health related than anything.

It all begins with the body. If you can't "purify" the body, how far do you think you'll get in this work? Everything is based on health. If you're not healthy, do you think that you'll be seeing mandalas and experiencing "enlightenment?"

 

By the way, I've read my books, too. Nowhere in any of my books does it state that I prioritize a "goal more health related than anything." Yes, I do talk about health as a foundation for all of this work. However, I place no limits on Kundalini, no limits on its power. Anything else, any interpretations or conclusions are not what I have written or lived.

 

Again, what are your goals? To learn whether I've seen a mandala? If so, it's a pretty meager goal. My experience will not help or guide you. Only you can discover if you're destined for "enlightenment" and how hard you'll have to work to attain it.

 

I didn't ask Gopi Krishna if he had seen a mandala. And he didn't ask me if I had "uncovered a method of Kundalini awakening in a text that was meant to do something else." In the first place, I don't understand what this means. I don't think he would have either. Second, how can there be more than one Kundalini? There can't be; there can only be different ways of experiencing it, different ways that it manifests itself within individual beings.

 

In future books, I may write about other aspects of my Kundalini experience. There is much left that is, for the moment, untold. Right now, however, I'm doing other work. Yet, there is not one day when Kundalini is not active, reshaping my being and my consciousness. By the way...

 

Milarepa should be the model for enlightenment. Did he come back from his Himalayan mountain top bragging about all the mandalas he'd seen. No, he came back to instill a sense of humility in pursuit of the Dharma. When asked by a jealous monk to interpret a text on Buddhist logic, he replied, "You know very well the conceptual meaning of this text. But the real spiritual meaning is found in abandoning the Eight Worldly Reactions and the personal ego, through destroying false perceptions of reality by realizing the single flavor of samsara and nirvana, and through meditating in mountain solitude. Apart from that, arguing over words is totally useless if one does not practice the Dharma. I never studied logic. I know nothing about it and if I ever did, I have forgotten it now."

 

This whole discussion seems so far from enlightenment. Enlightenment begins with the body. The purpose of Yoga is to prepare the body. The purpose of Kundalini is to rejuvenate the body and change the being. Only then can "enlightenment" begin. But the work begins with meditation. If you don't meditate, as Milarepa said, words are totally useless.

 

Let me ask a question: Has anyone ever read any two accounts of Kundalini that are point for point exactly the same? I haven't, and I've lived with and explored the issue for over 35 years. I've talked with hundreds of practitioners. Every one experiences something different. Isn't that as it should be? I don't think there's anything like 'cookie-cutter' Kundalini. Now, just for a moment, ponder the reasons for this, and post them hereunder.

[Trunk]

...

If I might add, imho, that is the secret of the golden flower: That if you concentrate in the smallest center of it, that it unifies with the "one light". The "one light" is concealed within the golden flower. You just have to stay there serenely, concentrated, and let it refine.

 

This is very different from "chasing the winds".

Edited March 25, 2009 by Trunk

[doc benway]

Cleary's process as two part:

1. Concentrate in the center and refine.

 

2. Refinement culminates in concentration integrating with Openness.

 

My graphical two cents.

I like that very much.

[Long Yun]

It all begins with the body. If you can't "purify" the body, how far do you think you'll get in this work? Everything is based on health. If you're not healthy, do you think that you'll be seeing mandalas and experiencing "enlightenment?"

 

By the way, I've read my books, too. Nowhere in any of my books does it state that I prioritize a "goal more health related than anything." Yes, I do talk about health as a foundation for all of this work. However, I place no limits on Kundalini, no limits on its power. Anything else, any interpretations or conclusions are not what I have written or lived.

 

Again, what are your goals? To learn whether I've seen a mandala? If so, it's a pretty meager goal. My experience will not help or guide you. Only you can discover if you're destined for "enlightenment" and how hard you'll have to work to attain it.

 

I didn't ask Gopi Krishna if he had seen a mandala. And he didn't ask me if I had "uncovered a method of Kundalini awakening in a text that was meant to do something else." In the first place, I don't understand what this means. I don't think he would have either. Second, how can there be more than one Kundalini? There can't be; there can only be different ways of experiencing it, different ways that it manifests itself within individual beings.

 

In future books, I may write about other aspects of my Kundalini experience. There is much left that is, for the moment, untold. Right now, however, I'm doing other work. Yet, there is not one day when Kundalini is not active, reshaping my being and my consciousness. By the way...

 

Milarepa should be the model for enlightenment. Did he come back from his Himalayan mountain top bragging about all the mandalas he'd seen. No, he came back to instill a sense of humility in pursuit of the Dharma. When asked by a jealous monk to interpret a text on Buddhist logic, he replied, "You know very well the conceptual meaning of this text. But the real spiritual meaning is found in abandoning the Eight Worldly Reactions and the personal ego, through destroying false perceptions of reality by realizing the single flavor of samsara and nirvana, and through meditating in mountain solitude. Apart from that, arguing over words is totally useless if one does not practice the Dharma. I never studied logic. I know nothing about it and if I ever did, I have forgotten it now."

 

This whole discussion seems so far from enlightenment. Enlightenment begins with the body. The purpose of Yoga is to prepare the body. The purpose of Kundalini is to rejuvenate the body and change the being. Only then can "enlightenment" begin. But the work begins with meditation. If you don't meditate, as Milarepa said, words are totally useless.

 

Let me ask a question: Has anyone ever read any two accounts of Kundalini that are point for point exactly the same? I haven't, and I've lived with and explored the issue for over 35 years. I've talked with hundreds of practitioners. Every one experiences something different. Isn't that as it should be? I don't think there's anything like 'cookie-cutter' Kundalini. Now, just for a moment, ponder the reasons for this, and post them hereunder.

Mr. Semple,

 

I hope I did not offend you in my post, as that was not my intention. I'm not trying to undermine the practice you have set forth, as it's both simple and effective (though I have not done it myself). And I'm not trying to suggest that there's just one way to enlightenment. I'm just trying to look at your practice, my practice, and the books to see how they fit together and where they differ. It's not time yet for me to just *do*. I have to wait years because of the effects on reproduction you mention. I'm looking for the best ways to realize total union with Tao (God, universe, Advaita, whatever). I can intellectually realize it, and I can emotionally realize it also. But I think there are more levels of understanding than this, and that's why I do these practices. I want to experience this union with every possible ability. The mandala issue was just something I've heard elsewhere and I wanted to see if you experienced it as well. Again, I meant no disrespect and I hope you were not offended.

 

Sincerely,

 

Myles