Daoists usually die

[宁]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Qing_Yuen

 

rumour has it he's still around

 

[sheng zhen]

I wonder how many people really think about their own death on a daily basis. Like really sit themselves down and look in the mirror and think, hey I'm just a rotting hunk of meat, and the maggots and vultures are salivating at the thought of my death. Realizing after their death they will be reborn into another world similar to this one after having their memories erased, to repeat the cycle of death and rebirth into infinity until they can find a way out....... maybe thats just me..... sorry for being so morbid...

I do! Every day. After I started doing that my life quality was raised a thousandfold. Everytime I realize I am going to die one day, maybe any day, I enjoy my life and all the wonderful small details and moments even more.

 

But I have seen this is a very difficult issue to talk about. Death is a suppressed subject. Something that is bad, gross, nasty, and unwanted. Even high level spiritual people who "believe" in reincarnation have difficulty talking about this. People do all they can to not think of their fear of death, and therefore they dont realize their love for life either.

 

When my time comes I am going to recieve it with open arms and a big smile. ...but not until my time comes.

[Pero]

I find it mean and nasty to make the assertion that people who die from a disease caused it themselves via bad deeds. Even if it is true (and perhaps it is) it is just a hurtful thing to say.

 

What merit is there in walking around a hospital ward and telling everyone "it's your own fault you deserve it" It is different if they come to accept that their suffering is caused by their Kama.

 

I work in a hospital and I see people suffering every day, am I to assume I have "better kama" because I'm not sick? Because many of the people I see deserve health more than I do.

 

It's not mean and nasty, karma is karma. Of course, people will be hurt if you say to them "it's your own fault you deserve it", who wants to take responsibility? It's always easier to say that someone or something else is at fault than ourselves. And I think it's not really a matter of deserve or not. "Deserve" is a human construct. Karma doesn't function on what people think someone deserves, what seems fair to us. Unless you're a highly realized being, you have no way of knowing how someone's karma is. Especially if you consider that karma spans through multiple lifetimes.

 

And of course there is no merit in walking around a hospital and saying that. Who'd do such a thing? And why? It would lead nowhere but make people feel bad, and probably hate you.

 

 

Perhaps I was a bit emotional, but I prefer sciences explanation of how viruses and bacteria work over kama.

 

They don't conflict.

 

I wonder how many people really think about their own death on a daily basis. Like really sit themselves down and look in the mirror and think, hey I'm just a rotting hunk of meat, and the maggots and vultures are salivating at the thought of my death. Realizing after their death they will be reborn into another world similar to this one after having their memories erased, to repeat the cycle of death and rebirth into infinity until they can find a way out....... maybe thats just me..... sorry for being so morbid...

 

I don't think it's morbid. I don't think about death enough.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Wow, I see that YMWONG is the one here that starts a fire and let you guys all die about it. Then He just comes in and make the fire abit hotter once in a while. Now, where is he? Why is YMWONG not inputting or answering anything I have asked? Is he hiding from me or what? Here let me rephrase my questions, YMWONG shall be able to answer me...

 

1) Karma generated by what you do everyday is what we learn in taoism, that is why we learn to do good deeds and avoid doing bad deeds. These good and bad are calculated by experience of wise masters in the past. As we can also define anything into YIN and YANG, we can also define good and bad because of their aftereffect. For example you kill someone, it is a bad deed. Because they loose their life from your action. But If they WANT you to kill them for some reason, for example, you kill them because they are in such a pain that they cannot suffer anymore. Yet, you helped them to take away the pain, that is a good deed, but you also take away their life, that is a bad deed. So what you have to pay in karma is whatever the calculation is left with. Which means you still have to pay your karma debt. Now, why this 64th master in Taoism have a liver decease? Is he suppose to be well trained in taoism enough to decrease the bad karma he did already? Why he still cannot achieve a peaceful death or even good health. I do not say he have to be physically immortal, I just say "good health" is what he fail to achieve.

 

2) Now, people such as this 64th master student are doing a ceremony for this dead person (master) here saying that they are doing such a ceremony to raise him into heaven and make him an immortal. Wow, can anybody RAISE a dead person to become an immortal?? Why we train so hard or what those grandmasters who past away train so hard then? Who is this 64th master? How come he can be an immortal right away with just a ceremony held by "his students"?

 

3) Is Taoism something that teach you to get "free lunch"? If not, this 64th master is just not qualified to be a Tin Si. He have such a decease which cause his painful death. That means his taoism practise is just not enough to even achieve good health. How can his students or people who learn from the lineage be confidence about learning under him? That is the basic of our need nowadays, good health, and he as a taoist don't even have it. What the...??

 

4) As seen in face reading theory in Taoism, this 64th master have a up side down U shape mouth which means that he is a person who lies alot and not keep his promise. I wonder how come a person can have such a face when he do not have that kind of personality. Face reading is a basic in Taoism study which is very accurate. I wonder why... Chinese say "The face is born from your heart"

 

5) If this is a good Tin Si, I wonder why he never mention his death and told people about who will be the 65th master BEFORE he die. This is a very in-responsible action because now he is dying, leaving lots of trouble and matters behind. Which is not what a taoist master shall do. He is leaving PROBLEMS for the people.. wow. That is a big contribution to the news. But I wonder how come he can be like that. So not responsible for his family and students. Is that what we shall learn from him and respect him for?

 

6) Who say Mother Theresa is an immortal? She died cause of heart attack, yeh, because she is not a Taoist, so she do not know how to cleanse all the bad energy from the sick people around when she is working for the sufferings. If she practise taoism, she shall know that she have to cleanse herself daily to avoid getting sick. Doing good deeds is good but you need to do it wisely. I can give an example. A person can be so great that he love to donate money, one day, he donate ALL his money to a charity. Next day, he have no moeny to eat and die from starving. Yeh, he did a good deed, but not wise enough, so he did not achieve good result. You shall know that in taoism already, do I have to teach you now? You name a caltholic person here.. wow, you go believe in jesus and get rid of taoism then. Are you really a taoism student?

[eighty4proof]

Are you to say that infants die because they have bad karma? I think it's more along the lines of genetics.

 

She died cause of heart attack, yeh, because she is not a Taoist, so she do not know how to cleanse all the bad energy from the sick people around when she is working for the sufferings.

 

Heart attacks have NOTHING to do with working around the sick. They are not some contagious disease. If I misinterpreted your statement I'm sorry. I just see no point in ignoring things that have already been shed light on to shroud them in mystery again.

Edited December 13, 2008 by eighty4proof

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Anything is karma, cause and effect. People die for a reason.

 

Babies die from early age is also because of karma. First maybe from the mother, second from the baby's past life. That is why we have to learn about it in taoism. How to calculate..

 

People who always have babies and the babies die around 3,5,6... is because of a reason. If the mother do not solve the cause, that will happen non-stop.

 

Are you to say that infants die because they have bad karma? I think it's more along the lines of genetics.

[thelerner]

I think societies who totally buy into consequences being due to Karma or gods will stagnate. If disease, poverty, disparity are the result of 'natural' order, to fight against them is against nature. So you end with plagues that kill millions every few years, classes of people doomed to direst poverty because they're born untouchable or what not, children dying and no need to look into solutions cause karma.

 

The greatness of the West is based on the ideal we can progress, do better, learn more, solve problems. Dark ages is when people don't ask questions or accept simplistic reasoning without looking deeper.

 

 

Michael

[gendao]

[froggie]

hello,

 

just my opinion:

 

some thread replies on the forum are just too darned narrow minded to begin with.

 

for your consideration.

 

 

now, with that said...

and without naming any names, i am observing the following way too often:

 

1st: some users here are doing not much more than exersizing their already too much inflated maniacal ego... i am sure there is a counter energy to this, to be experienced by themselves, they don't need your help in pointing it out to them, in fact it will only make it take longer.

 

2nd: some users here spend way too much time and energy defending themselves, i am sure the effort can be spent more wisely on other things.

 

 

i wish you a further good evening.

[seadog]

I think societies who totally buy into consequences being due to Karma or gods will stagnate. If disease, poverty, disparity are the result of 'natural' order, to fight against them is against nature. So you end with plagues that kill millions every few years, classes of people doomed to direst poverty because they're born untouchable or what not, children dying and no need to look into solutions cause karma.

 

The greatness of the West is based on the ideal we can progress, do better, learn more, solve problems. Dark ages is when people don't ask questions or accept simplistic reasoning without looking deeper.

Michael

 

Well said Micheal.

Discussions about karma generally make me cringe.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

 

 

6) Who say Mother Theresa is an immortal? She died cause of heart attack, yeh, because she is not a Taoist, so she do not know how to cleanse all the bad energy from the sick people around when she is working for the sufferings. If she practise taoism, she shall know that she have to cleanse herself daily to avoid getting sick. Doing good deeds is good but you need to do it wisely. I can give an example. A person can be so great that he love to donate money, one day, he donate ALL his money to a charity. Next day, he have no moeny to eat and die from starving. Yeh, he did a good deed, but not wise enough, so he did not achieve good result. You shall know that in taoism already, do I have to teach you now? You name a caltholic person here.. wow, you go believe in jesus and get rid of taoism then. Are you really a taoism student?

 

That was dogmatic and ignorant. You have a superiority complex. And did you ever consider that living as long as you possibly can is not a unconditional good? Maybe a life of self sacrifice to the poor trumps living for long as you possibly can. There is an infinite number of instances that affect our health, it is not constrained to daily "cleansing." If you actually practiced Taoism maybe you would be more humble and wiser. I think all religions have something to offer, do not just discount one because it does not satisfy your close minded training of a monolithic standard of living well.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Anabhogya-Carya

[gossamer]

Dear Michael,

 

I'm with Seadog, you wrote that real well, and I absolutely agree with what you said!

 

Well said.

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

Well said Micheal.

Discussions about karma generally make me cringe.

[Pero]

I think societies who totally buy into consequences being due to Karma or gods will stagnate. If disease, poverty, disparity are the result of 'natural' order, to fight against them is against nature. So you end with plagues that kill millions every few years, classes of people doomed to direst poverty because they're born untouchable or what not, children dying and no need to look into solutions cause karma.

 

The greatness of the West is based on the ideal we can progress, do better, learn more, solve problems. Dark ages is when people don't ask questions or accept simplistic reasoning without looking deeper.

Michael

 

You say this because you are confusing some "natural order" (which to me sounds more animistic and fatalistic) with karma. It's not something static, you can change it. Thinking "oh I got sick because of my karma and now there's nothing I can (or should, even worse I guess) do about it, it's just my karma" is indeed pretty stupid (not different from people saying oh it's god's will or other such nonsense). IMO karma does not conflict with anything more "scientific". For example, catching a virus. You're not going to catch a virus if you live alone in a sterile room. But if you go out in a hospital the likelyhood of it is much greater. In the first example there are no secondary causes for your past karma to manifest, but in the second there are. But then even if there are the secondary causes in the second example, you can prevent the karmic seed to manifest its effect by lets say wearing a mask, or in general keeping fit or whatever. But then lets say you don't do that, and you catch it. You can still get medicine and help yourself (or not, maybe virus mutated hehe). Anyway, karma is not fatalism.

 

On the other hand, when karma comes into full fruition, it's not posible to prevent it. Like you didn't take care of yourself and now your imune system is gone, you get an infection somewhere where there are no hospitals and what not, and you're a gonner.

Or if I drop a stone, and all secondary causes are correct (meaning for example we're not in space where it will float, or someone there to catch it and so on), it will hit the ground 100% sure.

 

Or to to give another example. Person crosses street and gets hit by a car. It's karma. How? That person found themselves on that street, at that time. Then person is reading newspaper instead of looking left and right. The driver found himself on that street, at that time. He drops his cell on which he was talking and takes his eyes of the road to pick it up. Bam! One less person alive. To say it was karma is not mean. It simply happened that all the conditions were right for effect of karma to manifest, for the pedestrian and for the driver.

If that person hadn't bought the newspaper or remembered that he's on a street, there would be one secondary cause less, perhaps he would be looking at the road and waited for the car to pass. And perhaps he'd just be distracted by his mind. Or the person driving maybe wouldn't have called his GF then or waited till he's done driving to pick up his phone, if he were more aware that he's going through a street where there are people. What's the seed? I don't know, maybe the pedestrian drove over the driver in previous life or something.

In any case, awareness is really really important, it's the main way with dealing with karma.

 

These are just simple examples, with my simplistic understanding hehe, while understanding karma is not so simple.

[Anabhogya-Carya]

You say this because you are confusing some "natural order" (which to me sounds more animistic and fatalistic) with karma. It's not something static, you can change it. Thinking "oh I got sick because of my karma and now there's nothing I can (or should, even worse I guess) do about it, it's just my karma" is indeed pretty stupid (not different from people saying oh it's god's will or other such nonsense). IMO karma does not conflict with anything more "scientific". For example, catching a virus. You're not going to catch a virus if you live alone in a sterile room. But if you go out in a hospital the likelyhood of it is much greater. In the first example there are no secondary causes for your past karma to manifest, but in the second there are. But then even if there are the secondary causes in the second example, you can prevent the karmic seed to manifest its effect by lets say wearing a mask, or in general keeping fit or whatever. But then lets say you don't do that, and you catch it. You can still get medicine and help yourself (or not, maybe virus mutated hehe). Anyway, karma is not fatalism.

 

On the other hand, when karma comes into full fruition, it's not posible to prevent it. Like you didn't take care of yourself and now your imune system is gone, you get an infection somewhere where there are no hospitals and what not, and you're a gonner.

Or if I drop a stone, and all secondary causes are correct (meaning for example we're not in space where it will float, or someone there to catch it and so on), it will hit the ground 100% sure.

 

Or to to give another example. Person crosses street and gets hit by a car. It's karma. How? That person found themselves on that street, at that time. Then person is reading newspaper instead of looking left and right. The driver found himself on that street, at that time. He drops his cell on which he was talking and takes his eyes of the road to pick it up. Bam! One less person alive. To say it was karma is not mean. It simply happened that all the conditions were right for effect of karma to manifest, for the pedestrian and for the driver.

If that person hadn't bought the newspaper or remembered that he's on a street, there would be one secondary cause less, perhaps he would be looking at the road and waited for the car to pass. And perhaps he'd just be distracted by his mind. Or the person driving maybe wouldn't have called his GF then or waited till he's done driving to pick up his phone, if he were more aware that he's going through a street where there are people. What's the seed? I don't know, maybe the pedestrian drove over the driver in previous life or something.

In any case, awareness is really really important, it's the main way with dealing with karma.

 

These are just simple examples, with my simplistic understanding hehe, while understanding karma is not so simple.

 

So karma for you is just the elements in cause and effect. If I understand you correctly you are saying it is neutral (i.e. not good nor evil). If you are saying this than I agree, if not than that is my position.

[Pero]

So karma for you is just the elements in cause and effect. If I understand you correctly you are saying it is neutral (i.e. not good nor evil). If you are saying this than I agree, if not than that is my position.

 

Well, that depends on what you mean by neutral. Karma is IMO not neutral in the sense that there is negative and positive karma. But it is neutral in the sense that it doesn't "care" who you are, it doesn't take any sides. But if I get hit by a car I'd say that's a seed of negative karma manifesting it's fruit lol. Of course, it's all relative. Maybe it was negative to get hit, but then the guy who hit me is millionare and offers me big bucks for not going to the police or something. That'd be positive. But then maybe I'd get robbed on the way home from the bank and so on. In any case in Mahayana, the most important is intention. It's said something like a good intention makes even a bad action less grievous, while a bad intention makes even a good action negative, or something similar. So if there's no intention in hitting someone with a car, it's not as bad as intentionally hitting someone.

 

Is this what you think also? Or different?

[thelerner]

Hey Pero, I get where you're coming from, Karma as simply cause and effect. Easier to swallow without putting moralistic connotations to it.

 

Personally I see my own moralistic karma operating, mostly through my own sense of conscience, creating situations unconsiously where by I reward or punish myself based on judging the worth of my actions.

 

 

 

Michael

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Well, that depends on what you mean by neutral. Karma is IMO not neutral in the sense that there is negative and positive karma. But it is neutral in the sense that it doesn't "care" who you are, it doesn't take any sides. But if I get hit by a car I'd say that's a seed of negative karma manifesting it's fruit lol. Of course, it's all relative. Maybe it was negative to get hit, but then the guy who hit me is millionare and offers me big bucks for not going to the police or something. That'd be positive. But then maybe I'd get robbed on the way home from the bank and so on. In any case in Mahayana, the most important is intention. It's said something like a good intention makes even a bad action less grievous, while a bad intention makes even a good action negative, or something similar. So if there's no intention in hitting someone with a car, it's not as bad as intentionally hitting someone.

 

Is this what you think also? Or different?

 

To a extent. I still think the ideas of positive and negative themselves, as ideas, are relative, regardless of outcomes.

[Ian]

(forces own hands away from keyboard, breathes sigh of relief)

[Pero]

(forces own hands away from keyboard, breathes sigh of relief)

Oh come now Ian, don't hold back your wisdom on us.