To Mak Tin Si About Karma and The Dao de Jing

[gossamer]

Dear Sir,

 

I have been reading your posts here at Tao Bums for some time now, and I find most of them very interesting and informative. I would like to ask you a question about the Dao de Jing and some of your comments about babies dying because of their "karma".

 

I probably have somewhere over 40 English translations of the Dao de Jing, and I don't read a word in any of them about "karma". Now I know that the word "karma" is bandied about on this group frequently, and according to you and other Religious Daoists, it seems to be an integral part of your religion. If you could perhaps show me someplace in any chapter of the Dao de Jing where the word "karma" is found, I would greatly appreciate it. I've searched the Dao de Jing thoroughly and never found this word, nor a description of anything that closely resembles what we all think of as "karma".

 

I also must say that it disturbs me that you think babies die because of "karma". You know, there are real things, such as Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and other real medical reasons why babies die. I would frankly ask, who are YOU to determine that it's a baby's "karma" that caused it to die.

 

I have asked this question here before about "karma". Aside from Stigwerd answering me, no one has ever come close to showing me anything that resembles "karma" in the Dao de Jing.

 

It's my understanding that Religious Daoists believe in gods, demons, spirits, exorcisms, curses, talismans, and things of this nature. Could you possibly speak some more about this.

 

Religious Daoism seems very much different from Philosophical Daoism, so much so, where it seems the two are hardly related at all. Now I realize that I've asked a lot of questions here, and that it might take a lot of room on a page to answer them, so I'll stop here and post this. I will await your answers. Thank you for your time and energy.

 

 

Peace, gossamer

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Hi,

 

Here is what I can reply to your post..

 

The Tao Te Ching is not ALL of taoism's knowledge. So you cannot find the word karma, but the theory of karma is already told in Tao Te Ching. Tao Te Ching have said that "Do Fat Ji Yin" Tao runs the nature. Tao is karma, karma is in nature, why do you need to find a word in the text? The wise Lao Zi will not write you a book like a manual and let dummies just open and see.. wow, that is karma.. wow, that is tao... wow.. that is chi.. no. Tao Te Ching is a scripture for you to learn from and you can get many things with the book, depending on your level of trianing, you will get different things. Karma is just a basic in Taoism.

 

Cause and effect is a law of nature, if you do not believe it, I cannot help you, you just need more time to study and learn from nature, maybe you will know one day. In Tai Chi's theory they already told you left leg up and right leg down, balance.. World have to be balanced. So if you do something bad, something good must be done to balance nature, if you do not do something to balance it out, you corrupt your own nature (little nature) by not coping with nature. That is Tao.

 

The scripture for babies's death is called "Saam Sung Gaai Yuen Miu Ging" meaning Dissolving and Undo-ing hatred and bad karma for 3 lives scripture. 三生解冤妙經. It is do have a spell and a few fu that goes with it for people to help the dead babies to relief the negative energy and go to their next life. There are also lots of scriptures in TAoism that are explaining why babies are born in 10tmonths and why abortion is not good.. etc,. There are just way more than tao te ching in Taoism. That is a point that I was always making to people who only read the Tao Te Ching nowadays and consider themself a Taoist.

 

There are just much more to learn, but people jsut cannot accept it. Too bad.

 

 

 

 

Regarding the question on Religious Taoism. Um.. I can just say Taoism (the religion) do not believe in God, demons and spirits.. they are not there for us to believe. They are there, so we know. I use the word "we know" instead of "we believe". There are lots of things that not much people can see and touch. Just like long time ago, nobody can imagine you can fly. Now we have airplane and rockets to shoot you up the moon.

 

Taoist can train to proof to yourself that there are spirits, demons and all those in the nature system. Just that you cannot see it with your own bare eye or any equipment, well because you are using the wrong methods. In Taoism training, we do see god and immortals in our trianing and they do teach you stuff. That is also how the first Tin Si in Han dynasty Jeung Dao Ling learn his stuff, his knowledge came from Lao Zi (the immortal).

 

If you do not believe it, you can try to open your mind, get a master and empty your own cup of tea, and then start to try it out, taste the new cup. I cannot write these in words because there is no way you can understand it anyway. My western student in the temple took around 2 years to really know that these are really in the nature, first when they met me, they are like you too. They question me alot and alot. Now they can feel it themeslve and realize the law of nature exsist, even god, immortals, demons.. etc,. They are just part of the world and nature.

 

I think the only problem is because the western religion just did a big fairy tale and create a wrong image of these demons, spirits, devils,.. god.. etc,. So most of you think that the demon, god, devil etc,.. are like those in warcraft or soemthing.. No.. They are part of nature. You can see, and also communicate with them via training. Of course you do not want to make friends with the demons. But I mean they do exsist.

 

God are there, but not those like jesus of course..

[Spectrum]

TaoPr0n

[mat black]

The Tao Te Ching is not ALL of taoism's knowledge. So you cannot find the word karma, but the theory of karma is already told in Tao Te Ching. Tao Te Ching have said that "Do Fat Ji Yin" Tao runs the nature. Tao is karma, karma is in nature, why do you need to find a word in the text? The wise Lao Zi will not write you a book like a manual and let dummies just open and see.. wow, that is karma.. wow, that is tao... wow.. that is chi.. no. Tao Te Ching is a scripture for you to learn from and you can get many things with the book, depending on your level of trianing, you will get different things. Karma is just a basic in Taoism.

Well said.

There are just much more to learn, but people jsut cannot accept it. Too bad.

It seems quite common for people to criticize principles that they don't understand.

Different people have different stages of understanding, so some people might find it hard to accept what Mak Tin Si writes. To those people, I would say if you don't currently accept it, OK, but just don't be in a hurry to refute it either. It's best no to judge what we don't currently understand.

Mak Tin Si, I appreciate the sincerity of your writings. To me, you explain sound principles and I admire your emphasis on the virtuous aspects of the way.

Edited December 14, 2008 by mat black

[Mak_Tin_Si]

As bruce lee said in his video, pour out your cup of tea and you can taste mine. If not, your tea is still your cup of tea.

 

I do not expect you to pour out yours but if you want to taste mine, you gotta pour out yours first. I am sharing this cup of tea. Whoever replying do have a choice of wanting to try it or not. If you do want to try it, I am more than happy to share it with you.

 

Taoism study is huge, Tao Te Ching as I said is only a very little portion of Taoism study. It is like the basic baby step for most of us. Therefore, Taoism do not end at tao te ching, there are just alot more...

[Stigweard]

I like tea. I like sharing tea with friends. I like the conversations, the opening hearts and awakening of minds that come from sharing tea.

 

The art of the tea master is to serve the right tea to suit the taste of one's guests. Else one's teahouse would be empty ... and unappreciated tea is just another weed.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

To ask the tea master, can I try your OuLong Tea?

 

First, you must really pour out yours to be able to really taste the tea master's version of OuLong Tea. Without the process of pouring out yours, no matter it is your friend or your tea master that is sharing the great tea, you cannot taste it. Because you cup is still with your old cup of tea.

 

By drinking english tea maybe fun, but you cannot compare that with Chinese Tea and say you know about chinese tea by just judging and playing around with the english tea. You know that english tea are also from China's tea leafs?

 

If you want to know about Chinese Tea, you really have to get rid of your version of "tea" first and accept how the Chinese drink tea to be able to really appreciate it. Then you can judge after you drink and learn from the Chinese tea system.

 

Japanese and English tea are from China. Originated from Chinese Tea. It is a PART of chinese tea only. Not all. Chinese Tea already have Japanese and English tea in the system.

 

Nowadays, people buy a book of TTC and think it is Taoism. That is just like having a cup of english tea and saying you know that chinese tea is like this this this...too naive.

 

In chinese, we have a saying :"You never seen a big snake pee yet" meaning you haven't see the real stuff yet. Now people judging the Taoism Religion?

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Well said.

 

It seems quite common for people to criticize principles that they don't understand.

Different people have different stages of understanding, so some people might find it hard to accept what Mak Tin Si writes. To those people, I would say if you don't currently accept it, OK, but just don't be in a hurry to refute it either. It's best no to judge what we don't currently understand.

Mak Tin Si, I appreciate the sincerity of your writings. To me, you explain sound principles and I admire your emphasis on the virtuous aspects of the way.

 

It is easy to ignore criticism if you claim the critical parties lack understanding.

[Stigweard]

[Mak_Tin_Si]

[Stigweard]

Good o

 

So here is our sweet teamaster with his stall at the public markets, people are trying his tea, some people like it and appreciate it authentic taste. But others spit it back in the teamasters face yelling, "This tea tastes like crap! And you smell funny!"

 

What is the teamaster to do?

 

No, because the master do not aim for any respond in this case. The master is just spreading out his tea in cups in the public for people are are interested to try out. If nobody want it, it doesn't matter to the master neither. That is how taoist spread the taoism knowledge. Whoever did empty themselve and go drink the cup the master put in the public is the one meant to be in fate. That is the one who will come to the master's teahouse only. The master who is spreading out the word shall have no goal and no point of aiming. So am I here just spreading out my words, not willing or waiting for any respond. Whoever likes it can take it, who ever don't can just ignore it. It is a game of fate. Same as tao.

 

Taoism is only passed on to people who have enough heart and passion in it. For those who repel from it, it is not a surprise or neither anything shocking to the master.

 

I go on the radio station every week to spread the word of Taoism. But I never care about any respond or people who say, yeh that is good. I just do my job. That is call spreading the Tao with the real wu wei theory you guys know about. No goal, no wants, no aim point.

 

If you think I am promoting, sorry, I am not. I am just sharing. Which means no need for respond or any reply from people. Those who need to knowledge will get it themselves.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

What you do think?

 

Tea master is tea master. He just keep sharing more and more, whoever spit it back, it is their own problem, not the master's. But what the master must do is to prevent those who are misleading people about what tea is. Or else the tea master is not responsible for the tea system.

 

Good o

 

So here is our sweet teamaster with his stall at the public markets, people are trying his tea, some people like it and appreciate it authentic taste. But others spit it back in the teamasters face yelling, "This tea tastes like crap! And you smell funny!"

 

What is the teamaster to do?

[Stigweard]

Fair enough ... you are quite possibly correct. I am sure that if I were in your position I would think exactly the same.

 

Now ... about that OuLong tea you were talking about ... mind if I have a cup?

 

 

What you do think?

 

Tea master is tea master. He just keep sharing more and more, whoever spit it back, it is their own problem, not the master's. But what the master must do is to prevent those who are misleading people about what tea is. Or else the tea master is not responsible for the tea system.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

I think what you were thinking before is a Tea-Sales not a Tea Master. haha! He is trying to get more sales and more people to drink the tea so one person will come to him and say, wow that is a great tea, let me have 2 packs. But a Tea master is very different. He will only share his knowledge and tea to anyone who come along and want to try. Those that do not want to try, is not a problem from him.

 

In the theory of Wu Wei that we learn in Taoism basic, that is the first thing we shall learn to avoid greed. Most people are being greedy from their desire and wants. So they always want more and more. That is endless greed in your life which will lead to total tragedy for yourself. So as a taoist, we learn to get rid of that habbit of WANT and GOAL or even AIM. We set a guildline for ourselves and go do it. The result is not a matter for us. Who ever get benefit is their fate and their good karma credit brings them to the knowledge.

 

For people who are thinking this way- I want to learn taoism but how can I ensure I will not be ripped off or cheated if I pay money. This is already going anti-Wu Wei thought. They are greedy for the deman and desire of "truth" or "real", which is also a greed. In Taoism learning, one shall just go learn and learn, when you set your guildline in learning, you will get there anyway. If you get ripped off or cheated, it is part of learning, so no hard feelings, I mean no feelings. No any feelings. That is start of wu wei. Also what we shall learn in taoism learning too. If you WANT something, that means you have desire.

 

The OuLong tea I am sharing is on the table already, just that you cannot see it because you are talking to me face to face now. Look down and you may find it all over the place, just take a cup (it's also labeled - take for free)

 

 

 

Fair enough ... you are quite possibly correct. I am sure that if I were in your position I would think exactly the same.

 

Now ... about that OuLong tea you were talking about ... mind if I have a cup?

 

[ZenStatic]

I think what you were thinking before is a Tea-Sales not a Tea Master. haha! He is trying to get more sales and more people to drink the tea so one person will come to him and say, wow that is a great tea, let me have 2 packs. But a Tea master is very different. He will only share his knowledge and tea to anyone who come along and want to try. Those that do not want to try, is not a problem from him.

 

In the theory of Wu Wei that we learn in Taoism basic, that is the first thing we shall learn to avoid greed. Most people are being greedy from their desire and wants. So they always want more and more. That is endless greed in your life which will lead to total tragedy for yourself. So as a taoist, we learn to get rid of that habbit of WANT and GOAL or even AIM. We set a guildline for ourselves and go do it. The result is not a matter for us. Who ever get benefit is their fate and their good karma credit brings them to the knowledge.

 

For people who are thinking this way- I want to learn taoism but how can I ensure I will not be ripped off or cheated if I pay money. This is already going anti-Wu Wei thought. They are greedy for the deman and desire of "truth" or "real", which is also a greed. In Taoism learning, one shall just go learn and learn, when you set your guildline in learning, you will get there anyway. If you get ripped off or cheated, it is part of learning, so no hard feelings, I mean no feelings. No any feelings. That is start of wu wei. Also what we shall learn in taoism learning too. If you WANT something, that means you have desire.

 

The OuLong tea I am sharing is on the table already, just that you cannot see it because you are talking to me face to face now. Look down and you may find it all over the place, just take a cup (it's also labeled - take for free)

 

I think that may be partially faulted to the western forms of religion. They are not about being there for people to take or leave, but about actively trying to recruit into their ranks at all times. So I think many of us may inherently carry the attitudes regarding that along with us when we are exposed to the religions of the east.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Religion in the East is very different than the west.

 

Western religion talks about "belief" if you belief in them you will put your mind and heart into it and you will be happy and go to heaven when you die, with lots of good stuff you can enjoy up there. Free lunch.

 

In eastern religion, we study nature and found the theory of cause and effect, karma, so we work hard for what we want to achieve, there is not a free lunch. We also believe in fate and because everything have their own pattern, so if people want to be in the religion to learn, they are welcome to, but if they do not, we do not beat them up and get them to go into the religon. In chinese, call say "chui yuen" 隨緣. meaning go with the fate. What we do is only spread out seeds, and not looking for a result in any form.

 

 

I think that may be partially faulted to the western forms of religion. They are not about being there for people to take or leave, but about actively trying to recruit into their ranks at all times. So I think many of us may inherently carry the attitudes regarding that along with us when we are exposed to the religions of the east.

[gossamer]

Dear Mr. Mak Tin Si,

 

OK, so I'm thinking if one practices Religious Daoism, one would need a Temple, isn't that correct?

 

So, say one wanted to be a student of Religious Daoism, then one would need to live in close proximity to WHERE the Temple is, would they not?

 

I mean if your taking lessons, it doesn't seem like you could do Religious Daoism lessons THROUGH THE MAIL, or something like that.

 

So, the problem would remain it seems, to be an actual student and perhaps later, become an initiate of Religious Daoism, wouldn't one have live near his teacher?

 

Thanks for your time and energy.

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Religion in the East is very different than the west.

 

Western religion talks about "belief" if you belief in them you will put your mind and heart into it and you will be happy and go to heaven when you die, with lots of good stuff you can enjoy up there. Free lunch.

 

In eastern religion, we study nature and found the theory of cause and effect, karma, so we work hard for what we want to achieve, there is not a free lunch. We also believe in fate and because everything have their own pattern, so if people want to be in the religion to learn, they are welcome to, but if they do not, we do not beat them up and get them to go into the religon. In chinese, call say "chui yuen" 隨緣. meaning go with the fate. What we do is only spread out seeds, and not looking for a result in any form.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

hi,

 

A practioner in Taoism (religious way you asked) do not always have to be in a temple or NEED a temple. One can learn and get the attunement from the master and then learn things on their own at home anywhere and anytime too. The key is to have a good master that can attune for you and get you started with the basics. Just like how the lineage I teach offer a stage that you can learn online, you can give your info : name and birthdate and then I can do the attunement for you by distance. After the attunement and activation for the lineage energy transmision you are well off to learn even via the internet. If you do want to learn more indepth, then you can choose to visit the temple of course.

 

In the old days, there is not internet and things takes months to be send from one place to another. So the master in the old days teach by doing attunement for the student once and then the student can learn in anywhere, they just communicate via the altar. That is how most masters communicate too. Via the altar.

 

For students now, for example in my lineage, they can learn online if they want. Not hard.

 

All it takes to succesful learnings is a good master, not a temple.

 

A temple helps of course. But it is not a mendatory. Only a master need a temple, not a student.

 

Dear Mr. Mak Tin Si,

 

OK, so I'm thinking if one practices Religious Daoism, one would need a Temple, isn't that correct?

 

So, say one wanted to be a student of Religious Daoism, then one would need to live in close proximity to WHERE the Temple is, would they not?

 

I mean if your taking lessons, it doesn't seem like you could do Religious Daoism lessons THROUGH THE MAIL, or something like that.

 

So, the problem would remain it seems, to be an actual student and perhaps later, become an initiate of Religious Daoism, wouldn't one have live near his teacher?

 

Thanks for your time and energy.

 

Peace, gossamer

[gossamer]

Dear Mr. Mak Tin Si,

 

A deep bow of Respect.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my queries.

 

I honestly for the first time need to think about pursuing religious Daoism.

 

That's a "Deep Impact" moment for me really.

 

I thought it once before with our friend Stigwerd, as well.

 

It seems that Dao is pushing me in a new direction.

 

Thank you Mak Tin Si, and you too Stig!

 

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hi,

 

A practioner in Taoism (religious way you asked) do not always have to be in a temple or NEED a temple. One can learn and get the attunement from the master and then learn things on their own at home anywhere and anytime too. The key is to have a good master that can attune for you and get you started with the basics. Just like how the lineage I teach offer a stage that you can learn online, you can give your info : name and birthdate and then I can do the attunement for you by distance. After the attunement and activation for the lineage energy transmision you are well off to learn even via the internet. If you do want to learn more indepth, then you can choose to visit the temple of course.

 

In the old days, there is not internet and things takes months to be send from one place to another. So the master in the old days teach by doing attunement for the student once and then the student can learn in anywhere, they just communicate via the altar. That is how most masters communicate too. Via the altar.

 

For students now, for example in my lineage, they can learn online if they want. Not hard.

 

All it takes to succesful learnings is a good master, not a temple.

 

A temple helps of course. But it is not a mendatory. Only a master need a temple, not a student.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Hi,

 

In Taoism, there is a spell call "Incense Spell", the word mainly say "Tao is learn from the heart and Tao is passed on from heart to heart" (heart also means mind) So if you get the attunement from the master, you really do learn in your mind and heart all the time. Even the master is not telling you anything, you learn alot from yourself too. But the main thing is that you have to get the attunement to get that energy in you that opens up all the knowledge to you. That is the power of taoism. You can feel it when you do the 49days attunement period. It's very cool and unexplainable by words. The best way is to experience it youself.

 

Masters in the old days just do an attunement for you and you can go off your own. All knowledge will be somehow learned from your own mind from time to time. Then the master can see the student again in 10yrs time and then the student will be so powerful and know lots of things.. Without going to a single lecture. Very magical. But that is how taoism is learned.

 

The phillosophies are also learned like that too. When you have the attunement, you will be able to put all phillosophies into practise naturally without even noticing. Very magical and fun.

 

Mak Tin Si

 

Dear Mr. Mak Tin Si,

 

A deep bow of Respect.

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my queries.

 

I honestly for the first time need to think about pursuing religious Daoism.

 

That's a "Deep Impact" moment for me really.

 

I thought it once before with our friend Stigwerd, as well.

 

It seems that Dao is pushing me in a new direction.

 

Thank you Mak Tin Si, and you too Stig!

Peace, gossamer