Question about spirituality and scientific testing

[seekeroftruth]

Hey,

 

This is something I've been thinking about for a while, I'm surprised I haven't asked this before. This might have been asked in some way before, but I'll guess I'll throw it out there.

 

People here commonly report having "paranormal" experiences, and quite a few people have cultivated for quite a few years. Quite a few people have a strong level of chi development (though the ethical development is noticeably lacking...jk ). With this strong level of chi, it's said that you can transmit chi to others, do healings, energize objects, and other things.

 

I know there has been a lot of studies done on qigong, but why hasn't anybody taken the challenge on the Randi show? I'm not saying that anyone here can levitate, but people do have a strong level of cultivation and should be able to do SOMETHING to prove Randi wrong like send chi to each other or something.

 

I know that Randi is known to snub certain people who have asked to go on his show who might have won, but I'll make the question more general. How many high level cultivators have actually tried to gone into science labs and such and tried to show that they can feel something that most people isn't real?

 

Oh, and please don't tell me something like "practice and you too shall know the truth of this with experience". I'm doing KAP and I'm trying to experience for myself (on an offnote, I'm pretty sure that I'm feeling chi for the first time, so that's good), but I'm asking YOU. You being high level cultivators.

 

I'm not trying to single someone out, just throwing this out there to see if I can get some interesting responses.

[mantis]

if they want to be skeptics let them, continue your practice.

 

people who are overly skeptical (in other words, make it their lives mission to "debunk" everything they can) wouldn't believe it if they saw it, anyway. in the event you DID show you had skill hey, look what happened to jesus.

[Moonbar]

FIANLLY!!!! Someone has come out & said it.... those 2 words... PROVE IT

 

Seekeroftruth - well done.

 

Seekeroftruth speaks the absolute truth Im with you on this one, why has nobody done it?

 

There are many wise & wonderful people here who claim many many things, surely ONE of them can prove SOMETHING... ANYTHING.

 

Now lets sit back & watch the reasons roll in - this will be interesting, im guessing a few will say "why prove anything?" & others "If you train hard you will prove it to yourself" you know the usual BS.

 

The gauntlet has been laid down - will anyone step forward? ............................. anyone?

 

Oh & theres a strong possibility nobody posting anything

Edited December 14, 2008 by Moonbar

[Teddy]

There have been quite a lot of scientific studies done in to the nature of chi. They have found that externally emitted chi includes various em waves. They have found that externally emitted chi has scientifically significant effects on cell cultures, cancer, mice etc. They have studied eegs of peoples brainwaves doing qigong and found that the brains of people who regularly practice change significantly. Biologically qigong has loads of effects such as increasing t cells. The list of research that has been done under controlled scientific conditions goes on and on. For more info read 'The way of qigong -The art and science of chinese energy healing', by Ken Cohen. or google the qigong institute.

[de_paradise]

Well first off, its better to see Randi as an entertainer, a t.v. show where he is the hero. One might have the tendancy as to view his stuff as not just entertainment, a hero looking to unmask charlatans. The hero is not supposed to lose in the show.

 

There has been plenty of lab testing of cultivators. Tibetan monks, generating heat, for example.

 

Many regular people have had energetic experiences, such as seeing auras or out of body experiences, or seeing a future incident. The problem as I see it is that people are not scientific enough. You would think a weird energetic experience is enough for people to shake up their model of the world, to allow the possibility of an etheric body or existence beyond the explaination of our lastest science. But people tend to shelve these incidents because it involves rethinking what a human is, what existence is, the whole biscuit, and its a very scary thing to have ones structure pulled out.

 

Last year I learned Tarot cards, and while practising, time after time the same cards would appear during a sitting with a person, no matter how much I shuffled the deck. It doesnt take me long to spot a statistical anomaly. I couldnt explain it, so I googled this and found some articles explaining how other people, in one example a physics professor had met the same statistical anomolies while dealing the cards...But what have you done with this fact so far? While your mind is reeling to find what could possibly explain this phenomenon, you still have to deal with people who deal in the carefully defined reality of the day. A statistical anomaly like this ought to shake up your reality. It did me. So I then on carefully looked for any idiosyncracy which could not be explained in the current materialist science model of reality.

 

Funny enough, when you start looking, these things start popping up. And then you have to turn to things like Taoism or new age stuff for possible expanations.

 

But when I talk about an etheric or soul body with friends, do you know what most say? They say people who believe in that type of stuff need to believe because the thought of dying is so difficult. WTF? I used to think that! But now I realize its the pot calling the kettle black: they cant accept reality beyond their programmed reality because doing so would upset their minds to much, and they may realize they have been suckered into thinking this is all there is.

 

I have this little trick where I can emit qi from my hand onto somebody's head or hand and they will be able to feel something like a warm flow or their skin. And although I can demostrate on anyone, I havent been able to really shake up another person's reality or view of the body to one that contains an etheric body. How are they able to shelve tangeable 1st hand proof? Its crazy. One guy accused me of using suggestion or hypnosis.

 

So perhaps instead of clamoring for proof, ask yourself why you dont see the proof that is already there?

[Yoda]

Seekeroftruth,

 

It is instructive to look at other vibrationally based truths: especially happy people, healthy vs unhealthy, poor vs rich, gender differences, cultural differences, religious differences, age differences, etc. It seems like the very rules of causation are different for different groups and that there is a tremendous chasm even in the ability of one group to communicate with members of the another.

 

A depressed person can't pick up a how-to-be-happy book and do the drills and get happy... their experience simply doesn't support it... there are no demos, no one to talk to, etc that can help.

 

I think of "scientistism" as a form of depression too. Of course, by normal adult standards, scientists are very happy, but still are only picking the fruit from the lowest branches.

 

Did you watch the TED talk "Stroke of Insight"? There was a scientist who thought she was perfectly happy as she was doing a good job garnering high regard from her peers. But after her left hemisphere shut down, she learned what deeper happiness was all about and now cares nothing for her old ways.

 

Being right is a trap... be like a child and be free.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Aetherous]

I agree with the 'prove it' idea. If you can reliably do something out of the ordinary, then it'd be good to show that and potentially win 1 mil from Randi. Why not? There's not a good reason not to in my opinion. We live in the information age...and the spice must flow.

[Teddy]

Who is Randi, and what is the Randi show? I don't think we have that in England. Is it a program full of horny people (or would that be spelled 'randy')

[seekeroftruth]

Lol, the Randi show doesn't involve lots of randy people, Teddy. But that remark made my day....

 

Anyway, James Randi says that anyone who can come under scientific testing and prove that they can perform some paranormal ability, then he'll give them 1 million dollars. No one has won the challenge.

 

EDIT: Small mistake corrected

Edited December 14, 2008 by seekeroftruth

[h.uriahr]

Lol, the Randi show doesn't involve lots of randy people, Teddy. But that remark made my day....

 

Anyway, James Randi says that anyone who can come under scientific testing and prove that they can perform some paranormal ability, then he'll give them 1 million dollars. No one has won the challenge.

 

EDIT: Small mistake corrected

 

If I could fly, pick up my truck by sheer thought alone, and shoot fire from my palms I wouldnt ever EVER take Randi's faux challenge. You can read the guidelines on his website and even if I could all of the above, Randi would explain it scientifically and debunk what I could do. It's a rigged test.

[hyok]

Buddhists did this in the 70's or 80's where scientists measured their heat levels in blizzards and such. Their body temp. remained stable in a freezing environment. This was all documented and recorded and still exists today. Moreover various institutes are completely designed around the study of Chi so I don't understand which labs and which scientists you're referring to.

 

In my experience, the highest experts in any field of science usually have a deep-seated private spiritual base. It may not be God, per se, but it is of the mysteriousness of the Mystery of the Universe.

 

But i dunno, why doesn't Max or Santiago or Mantra68 do it? Isn't there some show like Ripley's Believe It or Not that would showcase this? And even if it is documented and scientifically proven, then what? It becomes a piece of information that, even though is proven, will be shadowed in doubt and disbelief because most people are, and i hate to say this, stupid. Already physicists are saying that there's something more and there's a strange convergence between science and spirituality occuring, but what has that done to change public opinion? While i'm sure it's changed some peoples minds and brought them towards the spirit, but on the whole people just don't care to take the time, and if that's the case then what's the point? It'll just end up being some conspiratorial freak show for people to judge and ridicule in the background and may end up doing more damage than good.

[Ya Mu]

if they want to be skeptics let them, continue your practice.

 

people who are overly skeptical (in other words, make it their lives mission to "debunk" everything they can) wouldn't believe it if they saw it, anyway. in the event you DID show you had skill hey, look what happened to jesus.

 

True, lots of folks can't recognize the truth because their preconceived filters have already kicked in.

 

 

...But i dunno, why doesn't Max or Santiago or Mantra68 do it? ...

 

Perhaps because they are advanced enough not to cater to phenomena seekers?

 

If I could fly, pick up my truck by sheer thought alone, and shoot fire from my palms I wouldnt ever EVER take Randi's faux challenge. You can read the guidelines on his website and even if I could all of the above, Randi would explain it scientifically and debunk what I could do. It's a rigged test.

 

I agree it is not a real test; your words faux challenge are accurate.

 

Look up the Qigong database if you want to check out the scientific studies already done on qigong. Lots of research has been done on qigong and medical qigong.

BUT,

The actual proof is in each practitioners experiential domain. In other words, the experiences we create for ourself and others; each person knows what he/she experiences. We have no need for phenomena - a distraction at the very least.

[Taoist81]

If I could fly, pick up my truck by sheer thought alone, and shoot fire from my palms I wouldnt ever EVER take Randi's faux challenge. You can read the guidelines on his website and even if I could all of the above, Randi would explain it scientifically and debunk what I could do. It's a rigged test.

 

This is a mistaken claim initially made by those who refused to go up for the challenge but didn't want to look scared. All of the correspondances between the Randi foundation and the individuals applying for the challenge are published unedited on Randi's website. They allow a great deal of modification in the type of test and will allow ANY style of test as long as it is in a controllable environment and not dangerous (like the way they will not test Breatharian claims because they don't want to be responsible for the death of a person who goes without food or water for extended periods of time). The applicants must agree to the method of testing beforehand and so far all those who have tried it have failed. It wasn't that Randi or his testers "explained it scientifically", it was simply that in most cases they couldn't do anything that they claimed.

 

Please note: this is coming from someone who both respects scepticism and those aspects of the human experience that defy rational experience. The question of the matter is the claims being made. If someone claims they can bend spoons with their mind and then fail to do so when they are using spoons that they have not tampered with beforehand their claim falls on its face. On the otherhand, most of us have had experiences with chi or gods or "devils" that have been important moments in each of our lives and that are not affected by their objective "reality" or lack thereof. The experiences stand on their own regardless of scientific explaination.

[h.uriahr]

This is a mistaken claim initially made by those who refused to go up for the challenge but didn't want to look scared. All of the correspondances between the Randi foundation and the individuals applying for the challenge are published unedited on Randi's website. They allow a great deal of modification in the type of test and will allow ANY style of test as long as it is in a controllable environment and not dangerous (like the way they will not test Breatharian claims because they don't want to be responsible for the death of a person who goes without food or water for extended periods of time). The applicants must agree to the method of testing beforehand and so far all those who have tried it have failed. It wasn't that Randi or his testers "explained it scientifically", it was simply that in most cases they couldn't do anything that they claimed.

 

Please note: this is coming from someone who both respects scepticism and those aspects of the human experience that defy rational experience. The question of the matter is the claims being made. If someone claims they can bend spoons with their mind and then fail to do so when they are using spoons that they have not tampered with beforehand their claim falls on its face. On the otherhand, most of us have had experiences with chi or gods or "devils" that have been important moments in each of our lives and that are not affected by their objective "reality" or lack thereof. The experiences stand on their own regardless of scientific explaination.

 

The jref is allowed to do whatever they want with the "scientific findings" of your test including editting. You also have to pay for all of your expenses.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-cha...pplication.html

 

You can read a few of the rules there. They dont allow a damn thing unless they agree to it. The intro to the rules is pretty iffy. This test is a joke and Randi is definitely where I WONT go when I can fly, and shit gold bricks, and throw fireballs. All of which is attainable in my super secret GSQ method.

[Yoda]

If I could score a golden turd, that would be awesome, thanks!!

[h.uriahr]

If I could score a golden turd, that would be awesome, thanks!!

 

I will gladly teach you my Golden Shit Qigong, Yoda but for just an oh so small fee.

[Stigweard]

Firstly I will say that Randi is an entertainer, a professional magician, so you have to keep in mind the James Randi Educational Foundation may be a gimmick for his own career.

 

However, the protocols his investigations use are scientific pure and simple using stringent double blind procedures. And they provide us a wonderful opportunity.

 

I have mentioned the below over in the "Myth Busting" thread:

 

"I honestly believe that our greater society would benefit immensely from the rich wisdom and virtue of Taoism and Buddhism. However the proliferation of self-proclaimed masters showing off parlour tricks or making "Nutella in the shorts" claims of spiritual ascendency as means to attract attention, followers, and money tarnishes the credibility of these beautiful teachings."

 

Here is the other thing...

 

My own experiences have convinced me that such powers are possible with the right training and dedication. But we have to my knowledge (please correct me if I am wrong) no established body of accumulated credible scientific data upon which to build.

 

And it is because of this that we witness day in and day out right here on our beloved TaoBums the incessant wrangling and mudslinging because all we can really do here is assert OPINIONS. Any opinion can be immediately placed into disrepute by a contrasting opinion.

 

I think Billy Connelly is a foul mouthed SOB but damn he is funny!!!

 

An opinion, and no sooner have I said it someone else can say, "He's a loser, Seinfeld is what you call funny!"

 

And so on ad nauseum.

 

But if we had a body of credibly tested scientific studies we could, without needless windbagging, say, "Yes this qigong is good for this." And another other practitioner could undergo the relevant training and achieve said result reliably and with confidence.

 

So "Yes" I agree with the challenge in the first post.

 

Those amongst us 'swinging our dingle' proclaiming their own abilities or the abilities of xyz master, step on forward, lets have a look at you. Not to tear you down nor to ridicule but because we are earnestly interested. We want to learn and we want to be able to start documenting in a way that gives us irrefutable proof so that we can cultivate our own way and leave a testimony and a blazed trail for those that follow.

 

Edited December 16, 2008 by Stigweard

[Moonbar]

Well....

 

I logged on this morning a bit worried about what i might read in this thread - I spent most of the day at work worrying if id been a bit too gobby in my post

 

But lo & behold & much to my relief.... Most people out there agree!!!

 

De Paradise - Lets see your "chi trick" better yet where do you live & ill come & feel it for myself

 

Some of the other comments are fantastic - ive never laughed so hard:

 

- Golden shit QiGong LMFAO!!

 

We dont have the Randi show here in the UK but we have Derren Brown & if you can convince him of the paranormal...you can convince the world

 

ps. If there are any of those golden turds going - chalk me up for a couple

[Yuen Biao]

The experiences stand on their own regardless of scientific explaination.

 

I concur with that statement, the subject is intangible and seems too general for science to answer.

Although the problem is that science suggests that we are only imagining Qi (energy), colours of light and so forth.

 

Very interesting thread indeed!

[h.uriahr]

Testing seems like a reassurance for those in doubt

[Ya Mu]

Here is a link to the qigong database that was mentioned in a post above. Plenty of scientific studies have been done on qigong.

 

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/database.php

[Stigweard]

Testing seems like a reassurance for those in doubt

 

And doubting the validity of testing could be a symptom of those who are afraid to have their cherished day-dreams brought into the light of clear perspective.

[Dean]

Many things are possible, but somethings are improbable.

[h.uriahr]

And doubting the validity of testing could be a symptom of those who are afraid to have their cherished day-dreams brought into the light of clear perspective.

 

I believe in absolutely everything. I dont think that we have limitations at all, just so long as you know how to develop yourself far enough to be able to pass the "levels" (for lack of a better word) so you can do the amazing abilities. Walking on water for example. I think that people who want testing done, want it done for selfish reasons. Why should some mountain hermit in the Himalayas come down just to prove he can walk on water and through walls or whatever it is? Why should someone living in his/her perfect life of no media attention come forth and be tested just to have his/her world turned upside down and disrupted due to the insane attention? There is no such thing as a test where the results are never revealed and the identity kept secret.

[Stigweard]