Question about spirituality and scientific testing

[h.uriahr]

Many things are possible, but somethings are improbable.

 

All things are possible, but many things are deemed improbable

[Stigweard]

I believe in absolutely everything. I dont think that we have limitations at all, just so long as you know how to develop yourself far enough to be able to pass the "levels" (for lack of a better word) so you can do the amazing abilities. Walking on water for example. I think that people who want testing done, want it done for selfish reasons. Why should some mountain hermit in the Himalayas come down just to prove he can walk on water and through walls or whatever it is? Why should someone living in his/her perfect life of no media attention come forth and be tested just to have his/her world turned upside down and disrupted due to the insane attention? There is no such thing as a test where the results are never revealed and the identity kept secret.

 

I am with you in that I also believe in the infinite possibilities of human potential. And I have no intention of wanting to climb into the himalayas just so I can jam a thermometer up the rectum of an ascetic monk.

 

What I am quite willing to do though is to challenge those self-agrandizing masters making claims of paranomal abilities to step forward and prove under the right conditions the validity of their claims.

 

The equation is simple, if they make the claim then they have the responsibility to prove it.

[h.uriahr]

I am with you in that I also believe in the infinite possibilities of human potential. And I have no intention of wanting to climb into the himalayas just so I can jam a thermometer up the rectum of an ascetic monk.

 

What I am quite willing to do though is to challenge those self-agrandizing masters making claims of paranomal abilities to step forward and prove under the right conditions the validity of their claims.

 

The equation is simple, if they make the claim then they have the responsibility to prove it.

 

If I say I can kill you in a fight to the death does the responsibility fall on me to prove that?

 

I am with you in that I also believe in the infinite possibilities of human potential. And I have no intention of wanting to climb into the himalayas just so I can jam a thermometer up the rectum of an ascetic monk.

 

What I am quite willing to do though is to challenge those self-agrandizing masters making claims of paranomal abilities to step forward and prove under the right conditions the validity of their claims.

 

The equation is simple, if they make the claim then they have the responsibility to prove it.

 

 

Most people who can do the feats that you want proof of, have no desire to be in the "limelight" so to speak. If I were truely Superman, from Krypton, would I really want an outbreak of media attention? Would I want every, Tom, Dick and Jane at my door? Would I want to go to country to country to country to prove to them aswell that I am infact Superman? Hell no.

[Stigweard]

If I say I can kill you in a fight to the death does the responsibility fall on me to prove that?

 

Good point h.uriahr, I hear what you are saying

 

You know very well though what I am saying so let's not get sidetracked by verbatim.

 

The point of discussion is focused on people making claims of paranormal abilities with the expressed intention of attracting attention, fame, and followers.

[Dean]

 

 

The point of discussion is focused on people making claims of paranormal abilities with the expressed intention of attracting attention, fame, and followers.

True, a real master need not demonstrate their skills.

[h.uriahr]

Good point h.uriahr, I hear what you are saying

 

You know very well though what I am saying so let's not get sidetracked by verbatim.

 

The point of discussion is focused on people making claims of paranormal abilities with the expressed intention of attracting attention, fame, and followers.

 

Ah yeah ok I see where youre goin. I agree. You cant believe everyone out there obviously. I'm with ya

[Stigweard]

True, a real master need not demonstrate their skills.

 

A fair point Dean. However this is not the sort of guideline that is helpful in finding said 'real master'. If we were to institutionalise this as a principle then we can assume that anyone demonstrating an abiliity is automatically not a master. And does that automatically make someone who declines any demonstrations a real master?

 

Surely not.

 

So whilst I agree with the philosophical connotations of your comment it does not yield a reliable and practcical measuring stick.

 

Ah yeah ok I see where youre goin. I agree. You cant believe everyone out there obviously. I'm with ya

 

[Dean]

That is true, Stigweard. My comment was not meant to act as a guide to find a master. I was merely stating that a true master need not show off their true skill level. Especially for self aggrandizement.

[Ya Mu]

[h.uriahr]

These are very good examples of why qi is difficult to quantify. Research has shown a measurable infrasonic output of an accomplished practitioner in an acoustics lab. But this one segment of a multi-spectrum and, in my opinion, multidimensional output certainly doesn't tell us much (although the "qi machine" folks would have you think so).

 

When we are in clinic and projecting qi for an outcome, it would be impossible to measure this 2 times in a row for consistency, even if we did have instrumentation sensitive enough to measure it, which we don't. The reasons are many. One reason is that the effect from the first projection has to be taken into account. For instance, say someone came in with their hands hurting and limited range of motion. We project qi to them to ease their pain and increase range of motion the first time. So, if we did posses instrumentation that was sensitive enough to measure the actual components of the qi projection, the 2nd projection should, by scientific measurement "proof", be duplicable. But the parameters have changed. Say the client/patient at this point should have reduced pain and increased range of motion and does, but also has qi stuck in a knuckle because the first projection did not dislodge the sick qi. So when we project the 2nd time IT IS NOT going to be the same as the first. For our INTENT has changed and the dynamics have changed, so the 2nd measurement would not be the same as the first.

Also, we have no way at present of measuring the quantum interaction of INTENT.

In other words, I am saying that the INTENT and qi projection is dynamic and NOT static. And all of the above depends on us having instrumentation capable of measuring the many components of qi, which we don't.

 

AND, I know of no-one that has reached this level who has ANY desire to promote phenomena. Think, folks. QI is life-force energy. Do we REALLY want to set things on fire, knock over cans from a distance, or any number of other non-sense things or do we want to use that life-force energy to help humanity? It is an individual decision, but I ask, IS this the real reason you haven't seen anyone capable come forward to engage in such a ludicrous challenge?

 

 

Fire starting and projecting, to my knowledge, are milestones. They let you know where you are in development, in certain systems.

[Stigweard]

AND, I know of no-one that has reached this level who has ANY desire to promote phenomena. Think, folks. QI is life-force energy. Do we REALLY want to set things on fire, knock over cans from a distance, or any number of other non-sense things or do we want to use that life-force energy to help humanity? It is an individual decision, but I ask, IS this the real reason you haven't seen anyone capable come forward to engage in such a ludicrous challenge?

 

Excellently said!

 

In my studies I have learned that the basic goals of Tao are:

 

~ Happiness

~ Health

~ Longevity

 

As such the true measurement of a system of qigong is whether or not it promotes these basic goals.

 

Can happiness be measured? Though it has a degree of subjectiveness many studies have yield reliable frameworks to measure individual and communal happiness. Especially regarding the alleviation of stress.

 

Can health be measured? Yes it can and the bulk of the studies undertaken have focused on this area and there is a quickly growing body of data in regards to the health benefits of qigong.

 

Can longevity be measured? Obviously it can.

 

So the thrust of my assertion is this: Let us dispell the popular facination with qi tricks and abilities. Let us dash fraudulent claims against the rock of scientific perspective and let us give our undividing attention to the ways the spiritual technologies we have been blessed to recieve nurture the root of goodness and wholeness in our lives, in our families and in our communities.

 

Fire starting and projecting, to my knowledge, are milestones. They let you know where you are in development, in certain systems.

 

Great! Now find me someone who can pass a double-blind scientific scrutiny of such a feat and the credibility of your belief will gain weight in the world.

[Ya Mu]

Fire starting and projecting, to my knowledge, are milestones. They let you know where you are in development, in certain systems.

 

I'll certainly take your word that they are recognized milestones in certain systems. So, between a student and teacher in said system I'll say that possibly it is not a waste.

But common usage is that I project qi every day in my medical qigong clinic to help people. But I have no need to start a fire with qi everyday. This would only be done as phenomena, for its WOW factor, which has no Higher Level uses.

[h.uriahr]

I'll certainly take your word that they are recognized milestones in certain systems. So, between a student and teacher in said system I'll say that possibly it is not a waste.

But common usage is that I project qi every day in my medical qigong clinic to help people. But I have no need to start a fire with qi everyday. This would only be done as phenomena, for its WOW factor, which has no Higher Level uses.

 

Actually, the only way to know what the useages are would be to ask someone who can do it.

[Ya Mu]

Actually, the only way to know what the useages are would be to ask someone who can do it.

 

I stated my opinion of the application of qi projection "from someone who knows how to do it". So I assume you are talking about fire starting. Do you believe that, say a person who has not been trained in the higher level aspects of energetics has a natural talent of starting fires, that he would be the person to listen to about the application of fire starting simply because he could do it? What I am saying here is that phenomena done with manipulation of qi has no place in the daily life of a person trained in higher level energetics. There should be a NEED or it is a waste.

 

When I was young I did like phenomena, really interesting and it could "show others that didn't believe the power of qi manipulation." I quit doing phenomena a long time ago, because I finally understood the fallacy of the above statement and I finally understood that we have to assume responsibility of who we really are and the responsibility of higher level manipulation of energy.

[Moonbar]

Fantastic... got any video of it?

 

Now lets get back to the thread topic people ... PROVE IT.

 

Shall we stop pouring our energies & reasonings into discussions of "A real master" would or wouldnt do this or that.

 

& lets see some video clips people

 

Where are these "Big guns" who have many years of wisdom & many thousands of comments under their belts?

 

Enough toing & froing on tiny elements of an idea.

 

I read something many years ago that said "Believe nothing of what you hear, & only half of what you see" time & time again i have found these words to be priceless & true to fact (dissapointingly)

 

& why should these "Masters" prove anything? ... to stop thousands of others following charlatains with worthless & hollow teachings & to clarify spirituality to those who need it.

 

 

THATS WHY.

[h.uriahr]

I stated my opinion of the application of qi projection "from someone who knows how to do it". So I assume you are talking about fire starting. Do you believe that, say a person who has not been trained in the higher level aspects of energetics has a natural talent of starting fires, that he would be the person to listen to about the application of fire starting simply because he could do it? What I am saying here is that phenomena done with manipulation of qi has no place in the daily life of a person trained in higher level energetics. There should be a NEED or it is a waste.

 

When I was young I did like phenomena, really interesting and it could "show others that didn't believe the power of qi manipulation." I quit doing phenomena a long time ago, because I finally understood the fallacy of the above statement and I finally understood that we have to assume responsibility of who we really are and the responsibility of higher level manipulation of energy.

 

He has a point. You yourself cannot do pyrogenesis, or walk on water, or anything of the sort so who are you to call them a waste? You have no idea what goes on internally when these things are done so all you can do is blindly say "it is a waste".

[h.uriahr]

Fantastic... got any video of it?

 

Now lets get back to the thread topic people ... PROVE IT.

 

Shall we stop pouring our energies & reasonings into discussions of "A real master" would or wouldnt do this or that.

 

& lets see some video clips people

 

Where are these "Big guns" who have many years of wisdom & many thousands of comments under their belts?

 

Enough toing & froing on tiny elements of an idea.

 

I read something many years ago that said "Believe nothing of what you hear, & only half of what you see" time & time again i have found these words to be priceless & true to fact (dissapointingly)

 

& why should these "Masters" prove anything? ... to stop thousands of others following charlatains with worthless & hollow teachings & to clarify spirituality to those who need it.

THATS WHY.

 

A master has no obligation to anyone to prove his abilities. It's an insult to ask the master to show you what he can do aswell. If you wanted to train under a 20 yr old Mike Tyson would you ask to step in the ring with him? You are unworthy to see any ability because you arent humble.

[Ya Mu]

Fantastic... got any video of it?

 

 

Now lets get back to the thread topic people ... PROVE IT.

& why should these "Masters" prove anything? ... to stop thousands of others following charlatains with worthless & hollow teachings & to clarify spirituality to those who need it.

THATS WHY.

 

Exactly my point.

I "prove" qi projection every single day by helping others in clinic where there is NEED and have no desire to use it for such a shallow purpose as this "challenge". And yes, I have such qi projection on video and am currently involved in a project to do a video for teaching students different types of qi projection in the field of medical qigong. But anyone could easily say I paid the folks on the video and there was no "proof". I have no desire to "prove" to anyone anything about qi projection. I would rather anyone discover the experience of qi projection so that it would be self-evident as these things have meaning only when experienced by the individual.

 

Chances are show/WOW seeking students that meet a high level teacher would not recognize said teacher because of the desire to see such phenomena as proof. Understanding of such things are not generally given to those who would use it for it's WOW factor, but after a student has shown their true nature and their dedication to the study itself. And if anyone looks at it from a historical use, they would see the fallacy of showmanship as a teaching tool. It would not "PROVE" anything. Folks tend to follow the easy pathway far more than the actual true teachers. It has been that way throughout history and still is. A prime example is this thread, a "challenge" to people who have reached a certain level in development. Rather than seeking the teacher and studying the truth, many would rather see the show. Another prime example is the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tse, and other High Level teachers. While some follow them, rather than learning about their own true self, certain followers want to see the show and never find their true self. Others wish to persecute the followers. One day we will grow up.

 

And, if anyone is interested, the way to avoid shallow worthless teachings is simply to stop the world and tune in to the true heart. If something resonates then it probably has meaning. If it doesn't stay away from it.

 

 

He has a point. You yourself cannot do pyrogenesis, or walk on water, or anything of the sort so who are you to call them a waste? You have no idea what goes on internally when these things are done so all you can do is blindly say "it is a waste".

 

With all due respect you have no idea whatsoever what I can or can't do or what I have personally experienced.

 

I am really surprised to see you attempt to make this personal as I have read some of your posts which showed significant thought.

[seekeroftruth]

...just because I started this thread, does that mean I'm a superficial student? I hope not...

 

But, your point is very well made Ya Mu. Time to go do something productive and do some KAP.

[h.uriahr]

Exactly my point.

I "prove" qi projection every single day by helping others in clinic where there is NEED and have no desire to use it for such a shallow purpose as this "challenge". And yes, I have such qi projection on video and am currently involved in a project to do a video for teaching students different types of qi projection in the field of medical qigong. But anyone could easily say I paid the folks on the video and there was no "proof". I have no desire to "prove" to anyone anything about qi projection. I would rather anyone discover the experience of qi projection so that it would be self-evident as these things have meaning only when experienced by the individual.

 

Chances are show/WOW seeking students that meet a high level teacher would not recognize said teacher because of the desire to see such phenomena as proof. Understanding of such things are not generally given to those who would use it for it's WOW factor, but after a student has shown their true nature and their dedication to the study itself. And if anyone looks at it from a historical use, they would see the fallacy of showmanship as a teaching tool. It would not "PROVE" anything. Folks tend to follow the easy pathway far more than the actual true teachers. It has been that way throughout history and still is. A prime example is this thread, a "challenge" to people who have reached a certain level in development. Rather than seeking the teacher and studying the truth, many would rather see the show. Another prime example is the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tse, and other High Level teachers. While some follow them, rather than learning about their own true self, certain followers want to see the show and never find their true self. Others wish to persecute the followers. One day we will grow up.

 

And, if anyone is interested, the way to avoid shallow worthless teachings is simply to stop the world and tune in to the true heart. If something resonates then it probably has meaning. If it doesn't stay away from it.

With all due respect you have no idea whatsoever what I can or can't do or what I have personally experienced.

 

I am really surprised to see you attempt to make this personal as I have read some of your posts which showed significant thought.

 

You made it clear, whether you meant to or not, what you could speak about in reference to personal ability in an earlier post. You can project qi and you do so when you treat people. One can easily conclude from your posts that you cannot walk on water, start fire, stop breathing for any lengthy amount of time, fly, obtain speeds faster than a speeding bullet, become stronger than a train or leap tall buildings in a single bound. LOL No offense was meant by my post. You say you can project qi like that in the video, which video are you speaking of? Also, since everyone here is interested in "proof" why dont you GO and do that dumbass Randi challenge hmmm? If you dont believe in said challenge why dont hook up with another bum and show him your amazing qi projection?

I for one am completely against challenges or testing and what have you because of the reason behind the testing and the fact that the testee have their lives destroyed by the media and every single scientist that would be knocking on their door.

[h.uriahr]

...just because I started this thread, does that mean I'm a superficial student? I hope not...

 

But, your point is very well made Ya Mu. Time to go do something productive and do some KAP.

Of course not. Everyone wants some sort of proof no matter what system they practice or beliefs they may have. Even diehard bible belt christians who believe without seeing would like a sign.

[Ya Mu]

You made it clear, whether you meant to or not, what you could speak about in reference to personal ability in an earlier post. You can project qi and you do so when you treat people. One can easily conclude from your posts that you cannot walk on water, start fire, stop breathing for any lengthy amount of time, fly, obtain speeds faster than a speeding bullet, become stronger than a train or leap tall buildings in a single bound. LOL No offense was meant by my post. You say you can project qi like that in the video, which video are you speaking of? Also, since everyone here is interested in "proof" why dont you GO and do that dumbass Randi challenge hmmm? If you dont believe in said challenge why dont hook up with another bum and show him your amazing qi projection?

I for one am completely against challenges or testing and what have you because of the reason behind the testing and the fact that the testee have their lives destroyed by the media and every single scientist that would be knocking on their door.

 

It wasn't clear to me that I made it clear (huh?) that I could or couldn't do anything except I spoke about qi projection because it is done to help others. I never said I could or couldn't do the other things. I just stated many reasons to not do such things. Sorry my meaning was not clear.

An understanding of energetics that one can only experience for oneself makes these things self-understood by the practitioner. It becomes self-evident to the practitioner.

 

Also, since everyone here is interested in "proof" why dont you GO and do that dumbass Randi challenge hmmm? If you dont believe in said challenge why dont hook up with another bum and show him your amazing qi projection?

 

SHOW HIM? Another perfect example of my point in posting. SHOW HIM IS PHENOMENA with no meaning whatsoever. I don't do phenomena. Had you asked could I help a certain person I would reply that my clinic is open and they are always welcome to come see me.

 

I for one am completely against challenges or testing and what have you because of the reason behind the testing and the fact that the testee have their lives destroyed by the media and every single scientist that would be knocking on their door.

 

There you go!

 

...just because I started this thread, does that mean I'm a superficial student? I hope not...

 

But, your point is very well made Ya Mu. Time to go do something productive and do some KAP.

 

I notice that you are NAMED seekeroftruth. Your various posts reflect this. I have noticed they usually start a lot of stuff that gets crazy but the truth usually comes out if a person simply reads all this stuff we post while in the qi state.

 

Practice sounds good.

I like your posts.

[Stigweard]

My view is that it is imperative that testing protocols are applied to the 'science' of Taoist spiritual technologies.

 

Firstly because there is a poliferation of charlatans who are using the demonstration of qigong powers as marketing

material promoting their schools, courses, services etc. For these individuals there is both a moral and, in many cases, a legal obligation for them to verify their claims.

 

And secondly because, as I have stated before, if such claims could be verified we have a wonderful opportunity here to be able to initiate the collection of scientific data that would lead the way into qigong metaphysics.

 

And to those saying that western science has no place in understanding Chinese Taoist arts, have a good look through the good work the Qi Institute has done. Study after study giving scientific verification of the health benefits of qigong, taijiquan, meditation, etc.

 

I read here that people are regarding qigong powers as guideposts of cultivation. I say, "Let go of these fascinations and be mindful instead of the signposts of a wholesome being:

~ Health

~ Happiness

~ Longevity

~ Virtuous fulfillment

 

I would travel the world over to learn from one who could 'prove' the had mastered these abilities.

[Seth Ananda]

I dont want to be rude but here goes. The 'Prove it' mentality is B.S!

The prove it to yourself mentality is awesome.

 

Once the Church and its mind set rulled our world and our minds and you really were not allowed to challenge it without bad consequences. Now Science has wresteled much of that power from the church with its Prove it mantra and things are much the same. The scientific Priesthood now rules the minds of the general population with its scientific materialism and even where many profess to be christian, science still has an Iron grip on a large % of their world view. People get very uncomfortable when their world view is challenged and will defend it at almost any costs.

The reason is that we Identify with our beliefs, as is make them part of our sence of self. This means if our beliefs are threatened our survival instincts kick in the flight or flight responce, and that is exactly what we do. Fight or Run.

 

You are not dealing with People, You are dealing with Mammalian Survival responces.

 

If you cant see the logical conclusions of chalenging the mainstream Scientific Priest hood I'll spell it out for you.

 

One. If they cant explain it they bring in a stage magician to replicate it and then Shout "See! Our magician can do it, Its just a trick everyone, Don't Worry about a thing!' (sooths those survival instincts)

 

If there is just no possible way the test subject could have smuggled in his magician equipment, and they are some of the rare few not to bring in a stage magician, they may actually begin to believe their results.

Where to from there? If they get published in a science journal they get written off as quacks, stripped off licences, funding and facility's. (by mammalian survival responces in white lab coats)

Very risky. The best thing that can happen is that they will be ignored.

 

Two. If some how they are taken seriously there are several more options. One is 50 other labs run the same tests with their own Chi person (or healer, or ...) and get different results or some bring in the stage magician saftey valve, and theory's circulate round and round and others say better equipment is needed to confirm and ... Inconclusive evidence, or negligable evidence, or waiting for more funding or ...

and all the happy mammalian circuts relax again and every one is happy and safe.

 

You have to think about how many Doctors and Scientists have lost everything because their own tests confirmed a scientific Heresy thus causing the scientific priesthood to excomunicate them.

Some were even jailed.

 

The weight or inertia of the collective mindset is huge. And the only freedom we have is to try and Prove it for ourselves. Then we can use it every day, in some cases helping thousands of people, in happy obscurity.

Everyone involved will KNOW it works, and all will be fine till some jelous soul see's that you are too sucsessful and some myth busters show will break down your door...

 

Wow. I didn't even mention placebo in there.

 

Seth.

[Aetherous]

I read here that people are regarding qigong powers as guideposts of cultivation. I say, "Let go of these fascinations and be mindful instead of the signposts of a wholesome being:

~ Health

~ Happiness

~ Longevity

~ Virtuous fulfillment

 

Very true. After you can do little party tricks like light up a pile of newspaper or make a psi wheel spin, then what matters to your life? A long happy healthy and rewarding life...this is the best thing someone can achieve. If a teacher doesn't have these qualities, then it says something about their cultivation, in my opinion.

 

I think Ya Mu's idea about him using qi projection to treat people is a great example of an amazing ability. If people are consistently treated with positive results, then it proves the nature of qi. Why would someone have to prove it by doing some magic trick? Helping people with illness is magic enough for me.

 

Of course, maybe it's not even possible for someone to start a fire by just using their energy or intent. I can't do it, and don't know anyone that can. If I could, or did...well that would be interesting but ultimately a distraction from:

 

Making the world and your life a better place to be.

 

But that being said: I am on the side of the fence that thinks if someone's claiming they can do it, they really should do it scientifically and under scrutiny. I don't see a reason why not. And I think if someone is kind of claiming they have the ability, they should be straightforward about it saying "yes I can" or "no I can't" or just don't speak at all on the subject. Dancing around the answer by saying "I didn't say I can or can't" isn't helpful to anyone. No offense meant by that to anyone.