Best way to enlightenment

[markern]

After lurking around various webforums and websites relating to meditation ++ my very superficial and absolutely not necesarily correct impression is that while people that are into taoist cultivation methods seem to get somewhat better results in terms of cultivating energy but that actualy reaching enlightenment (at the initial stages) is much more frequent amongst people practicing budhist methods and to some extent also in the yogic traditions. As I said I am not claiming this is true, it is just the impression I get online. I have read quite often about people reaching first and second enlightenment within theravada, Tibetan Budhism and Zen but almost never read about anyone except peoples Master in China etc having attained this with taoist methods. Do you think this is correct and if so why? Is it because the taoist methods spend a lot of time doing energy work that is useful for many purposes but not necessary for reaching enlightenment while most Budhist and yogic aproaches just aim straight at getting the strictly necesary work done to get enlightened? Is it because it is so difficult to actually get the necesary teachings within taoism becuase so much is kept secret while in for example in Vipassana absolutely everything is in the open or is it something else?

[JackSquat]

My opinion, in a word: every system has its own special benefits and pitfalls. Sorcery can leave you trapped in a cage, detachment can be cold comfort, philosophy and ritual can be empty, and direct experience can mislead. Be wary of anyone who claims that any particular system is the best for everyone period. Keep right on forum hopping, and keep asking questions !

 

"Can you feel it, now that it has come

That it's time to live in the scattered sun?"

~Jim Morrison

[fiveelementtao]

After lurking around various webforums and websites relating to meditation ++ my very superficial and absolutely not necesarily correct impression is that while people that are into taoist cultivation methods seem to get somewhat better results in terms of cultivating energy but that actualy reaching enlightenment (at the initial stages) is much more frequent amongst people practicing budhist methods and to some extent also in the yogic traditions. As I said I am not claiming this is true, it is just the impression I get online. I have read quite often about people reaching first and second enlightenment within theravada, Tibetan Budhism and Zen but almost never read about anyone except peoples Master in China etc having attained this with taoist methods. Do you think this is correct and if so why? Is it because the taoist methods spend a lot of time doing energy work that is useful for many purposes but not necessary for reaching enlightenment while most Budhist and yogic aproaches just aim straight at getting the strictly necesary work done to get enlightened? Is it because it is so difficult to actually get the necesary teachings within taoism becuase so much is kept secret while in for example in Vipassana absolutely everything is in the open or is it something else?

There is a huge difference between the goals of buddhism, taoism and yoga.

 

Depends on what you mean by enlightenment. That term is thrown around so cavalierly. Buddhists are seeking emotional and spiritual detachment and freedom from pain as described by gautama buddha which results in freedom from rebirth. This is a clear objective and much easier to delude oneself about attaining. because after having an emotional experience one can declare themselves enlightened and there is no way to prove it, because how do you prove that you will not reborn again?

So, in buddhism it is easier to declare oneself enlightened based on a feeling of detachment or bliss or what have you, but in taoism if you claim to have reached some state of perfection, you have to be able to back it up with your energy.

 

Taoists are not seeking a theoretical detachment, they are seeking physical immortality and spiritual transformation as a result of their energetic work which corresponds with definable, measurable energetic changes. Taoists are also seeking freedom from rebirth but in a different way. Taoists are much more pragmatic and practical and they have more of a "show me" attitude.

 

IMO the idea of enlightenment that is thrown around is a bunch of new age hooey. New age hacks like eckhart tolle and other new age celebrities have given western seekers some idea that if they adopt an eastern religion and "empty their minds" or "free themselves from ego" or some other nebulous definition of spirituality that they will instantly be free from their emotional issues and be "enlightened". IMO spiritual transformation is a process and if you are still in a human body, then you haven't reached it....

 

So, if you are looking for a system that will give you "enlightenment", I suggest something other than taoism. We're not seeking a magic pill (Well some of us aren't). We're seeking a fun process that will measure our energetic progress toward self-transformation.

 

This is not to say that I think Buddhism is not a worthwhile path. I just get cranky when I hear the term enlightenment thrown around like it's something that can be achieved in a weekend seminar or something.

[hyok]

Different roads leading up towards the same mountain. I think once one reaches the top, enlightenment is enlightenment.

[ddilulo_06]

Max says there are 5 levels of enlightenment. I will ask his what they are and how we know what level we're at when the admin on the Kunlun forum validates my account.

 

Stay tuned!

[rene]

.

Edited August 14, 2013 by WhiteMoon

[fiveelementtao]

WhiteMoon says as long as you think "enlightenment" is something seperate that needs chasing, you'll never catch it.

 

Exactly! Enlightenment is not a destination, it is the process and I don't think it ends... Even after escaping rebirth, there will still be learning and growing to occur in the next dimension. and whatever we avoid here we will take with us and have to work on in the ethers! So, just relax, be real and enjoy.

Edited December 15, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[Yoda]

After lurking around various webforums and websites relating to meditation ++ my very superficial and absolutely not necesarily correct impression is that while people that are into taoist cultivation methods seem to get somewhat better results in terms of cultivating energy but that actualy reaching enlightenment (at the initial stages) is much more frequent amongst people practicing budhist methods and to some extent also in the yogic traditions. As I said I am not claiming this is true, it is just the impression I get online. I have read quite often about people reaching first and second enlightenment within theravada, Tibetan Budhism and Zen but almost never read about anyone except peoples Master in China etc having attained this with taoist methods. Do you think this is correct and if so why? Is it because the taoist methods spend a lot of time doing energy work that is useful for many purposes but not necessary for reaching enlightenment while most Budhist and yogic aproaches just aim straight at getting the strictly necesary work done to get enlightened? Is it because it is so difficult to actually get the necesary teachings within taoism becuase so much is kept secret while in for example in Vipassana absolutely everything is in the open or is it something else?

 

Good point: We Suck!!

 

 

There is a huge difference between the goals of buddhism, taoism and yoga.

 

Depends on what you mean by enlightenment. That term is thrown around so cavalierly. Buddhists are seeking emotional and spiritual detachment and freedom from pain as described by gautama buddha which results in freedom from rebirth. This is a clear objective and much easier to delude oneself about attaining. because after having an emotional experience one can declare themselves enlightened and there is no way to prove it, because how do you prove that you will not reborn again?

So, in buddhism it is easier to declare oneself enlightened based on a feeling of detachment or bliss or what have you, but in taoism if you claim to have reached some state of perfection, you have to be able to back it up with your energy.

 

Taoists are not seeking a theoretical detachment, they are seeking physical immortality and spiritual transformation as a result of their energetic work which corresponds with definable, measurable energetic changes. Taoists are also seeking freedom from rebirth but in a different way. Taoists are much more pragmatic and practical and they have more of a "show me" attitude.

 

IMO the idea of enlightenment that is thrown around is a bunch of new age hooey. New age hacks like eckhart tolle and other new age celebrities have given western seekers some idea that if they adopt an eastern religion and "empty their minds" or "free themselves from ego" or some other nebulous definition of spirituality that they will instantly be free from their emotional issues and be "enlightened". IMO spiritual transformation is a process and if you are still in a human body, then you haven't reached it....

 

So, if you are looking for a system that will give you "enlightenment", I suggest something other than taoism. We're not seeking a magic pill (Well some of us aren't). We're seeking a fun process that will measure our energetic progress toward self-transformation.

 

This is not to say that I think Buddhism is not a worthwhile path. I just get cranky when I hear the term enlightenment thrown around like it's something that can be achieved in a weekend seminar or something.

 

Good point: We Rock!!

 

~~~

 

Due to the shitty vibes for the last several thousand years, all paths pretty much suck and have devolved to reindeer games. That's turning around quick quick for all paths.

 

I agree with 5ET: If we are inclined to compare paths, we need to use a physiological definition. The ability to voluntarily stop one's heart might be a good basic definition of enlightenment.

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[rene]

.

Edited August 14, 2013 by WhiteMoon

[Ian]

Sorry, actually nothing to say. Please carry on with what you were doing.

[fiveelementtao]

Nah - enlightenment is like tao.

 

You either get it or you dont.

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

Buddhist enlightenment , at its highest stage, should be a MIND ( not a ghost ) capable of leaving and returning to our physical body freely . Its difference with the Taoist one is that IT finally leaves this physical body on earth , thinking that it is valueless while Taoist ,with the ability of qi-lizing the physical body , may choose to bring it along .

 

Taoism also thinks that the accomplishment of such a MIND, its several big leaps from a daily life ,trivial mind , should be interpreted in the jing-qi-shen framework and yin/yang theory , not just a mind abruptly capable of stripping off its own shackles, step by step to becoming a greater MIND.

Edited December 16, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[picnic]

You should wait 21 years after enlightenment until you say one word about it. Otherwise you will confuse others on the path, potentially throwing them off with your incomplete thoughts, and that incompassionate act upsets you and them.

 

Enlightenment is, no mind, no spirit, no split of any nature. No this as related to that, .. just

"

 

 

..................... "

 

The stiller the viewer, the more that is seen, it is here now, shhhhh, can you smell it with your eye?

[rene]

.

Edited August 14, 2013 by WhiteMoon

[Aetherous]

Gee, for being enlightened for at least 21 years, you sure dont hesitate to instruct others or call them incompassionate.

 

Haha! I was just going to say that.

 

I tend to think that enlightenment and energy work go hand in hand. You can shift into the enlightened state, then all of a sudden the energy flows strongly. Or you can do high level energy work, and as a result of tapping into the vibe you can shift into the enlightened state.

 

The enlightened state is where you don't operate from a mentally constructed self...it's more about pure experience of the present moment. Not just putting yourself in the present moment, but a totally exploded and naked awareness. If you think you've got it, you don't.

 

It's probably there are always higher levels to energy work and transformation, but enlightenment seems to be one thing. One perceptual shift. At least according to my definition of it.

 

Of course life as a human doesn't end with enlightenment, and neither does the learning or new experiences. In fact, it is a new beginning rather than an ending. But yeah I think there is one enlightenment. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I do agree that many people fool themselves and others. Whether someone other than ourselves is enlightened or not doesn't matter, though. What does it matter? Them being enlightened makes no difference in my life.

 

If I think I'm enlightened, I can act all guru-ish, and get a bunch of people to follow me...but what satisfaction will that bring me? It's a good question to ask yourself: am I satisfied??? It's good to look at your actions and see if you're grasping. If so, then you're not enlightened.

 

It's the best to totally honest with ourselves...otherwise we will fool ourselves into thinking we've got it. If that's the case, then it sucks for us!

 

EDIT: I hope this all makes sense. I'm quite tea drunk right now after doing gongfu ceremony with tons of oolongs with my little brother.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Scotty

[RongzomFan]

Buddist enlightenment is a very specific thing.

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[fiveelementtao]

Buddist enlightenment is a very specific thing.

 

Believe it or not, the popular book "The Power of NOW" by Eckhart Tolle nails it.

 

If you read that book, and get some Dzogchen teachings, you can reach the first bhumi within an extremely short period of time. All the later bhumis just depend on the quality of maintaing that state, which is why yes, even the first bhumi IS ACTUAL ENLIGHTENMENT.

 

AFTER you attain direct experience with the natural state, is when you should take up the energy body practices and thogal to obtain the rainbow body to help all sentient beings

Well, then I am going to change my definition of enlightenment. If enlightenment is something that can be "lost" or needs to be "maintained" then it is simply another stage in the evolutionary process. In my definition, enlightenment is the ability to learn and grow along with all my states both positive and negative, happy or sad. The enlightenment that I see being thrown around in forums and books is simply denial. Anything that promises to instantly relieve you of pain or emotional struggles is unhealthy and spiritually stifling and IMO it ain't enlightenment. Bliss or "no mind" or any other state of mind is temporary and can be used just like any other drug. If used as a tool to help, then great. If used to deny pain, it is a trap. I've been around the block a few times in terms of energy work and meditation, and in my experience, nothing will "save" you. They are all tools. But nothing to me is more enlightened than being Kind and loving. And you don't need to be a buddhist or a taoist to do that.

[Aetherous]

But nothing to me is more enlightened than being Kind and loving.

 

I agree.

 

_/\_

[exorcist_1699]

If that enlightened MIND is all nothing , why saying: " Nourish a HEART/ MIND from nowhere " (" Diamond Sutra")("金剛經")

 

 

If that MIND is so trivial as somebody says here , why saying that it is a total solution to all human sufferings including illness and death ( " Heart Sutra")("般若心經")

[RongzomFan]

Well, then I am going to change my definition of enlightenment. If enlightenment is something that can be "lost" or needs to be "maintained" then it is simply another stage in the evolutionary process. In my definition, enlightenment is the ability to learn and grow along with all my states both positive and negative, happy or sad. The enlightenment that I see being thrown around in forums and books is simply denial. Anything that promises to instantly relieve you of pain or emotional struggles is unhealthy and spiritually stifling and IMO it ain't enlightenment. Bliss or "no mind" or any other state of mind is temporary and can be used just like any other drug. If used as a tool to help, then great. If used to deny pain, it is a trap. I've been around the block a few times in terms of energy work and meditation, and in my experience, nothing will "save" you. They are all tools. But nothing to me is more enlightened than being Kind and loving. And you don't need to be a buddhist or a taoist to do that.

 

The only way to be truly loving, is to directly experience and know there is no absolute self.

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

You can't be serious.

[RongzomFan]

lol

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

I don't really consider myself suitable to discuss these things much anymore. Why do you ask?

 

 

Well in that case, I think you should look more into what 1st bhumi means. If it were as easy as you make it sound there'd be many boddhisattvas walking around, but they're not.

[RongzomFan]

Everyone's awareness is already LITERALLY (not figuratively) a Buddha.

Edited January 3, 2010 by alwayson

[Pero]

Well not really.