Qigong Pyrokinesis Demo Real Or Fake

[r.w.smith]

Hey Guys, im not sure if this has been posted before here. If so i apologize.

 

Although i believe in this kind of thing Im certain many people are now using trickery. The smoke looks a funny kind of colour when this guy does it. People are now using something called flash paper & hotrods on the thumb which remain invisible to the naked eye.

 

Then again it could be genuine, I'll let you decide for Yourselfs.

 

[h.uriahr]

Hey Guys, im not sure if this has been posted before here. If so i apologize.

 

Although i believe in this kind of thing Im certain many people are now using trickery. The smoke looks a funny kind of colour when this guy does it. People are now using something called flash paper & hotrods on the thumb which remain invisible to the naked eye.

 

Then again it could be genuine, I'll let you decide for Yourselfs.

 

 

Videos are easily doctored which sucks but what can you do

[hyok]

Impossible to tell since his hands are all up in the paper and hidden at various moments.

 

I'd say BS tho.

[gendao]

The setup has me skeptical.

 

1) When he was "wiping his hands dry" on his clothes, he could have palmed a lighter or something at that point.

2) Why did he need such a hugggee nest of newspaper - unless it was to conceal something he was using with the hand he had under it?

 

Not saying it is or isn't a fraud, but there are at least some questionable red flags here...

 

A more convincing demo would have used a smaller amount of newspaper with both of his hands in plain view.

[mewtwo]

If you turn the volume up you can hear a noise like that sounds like a lighter.

[Stigweard]

Hey Guys, im not sure if this has been posted before here. If so i apologize.

 

Although i believe in this kind of thing Im certain many people are now using trickery. The smoke looks a funny kind of colour when this guy does it. People are now using something called flash paper & hotrods on the thumb which remain invisible to the naked eye.

 

Then again it could be genuine, I'll let you decide for Yourselfs.

 

 

It is incredibly easy to fool people. I was a professional magician for 7 years.

 

The 'trick' with catching the secrets of a magician is to scrutinize the actions that were not necessary. If I could truly set fire to a bundle of paper I would just get some one to pull out a random page of a random newspaper, place it on the ground and without fuss and without touching it I would burst it into flames.

 

So let's look at what is not necessary here.

 

His hands are empty, and if we are to trust the man who was examining the paper then there was nothing in the paper. However the paper is in a large loose bunch of strips. This is not necessary for the act so suspicion must first be placed here. Why is it like this? Obviously to conceal something or some action, and it does as you will soon see.

 

The audience is only situated on the left hand side of the performer. Why? Is it perhaps because he will do something that would have been revealed to those on the right side. Let us see.

 

From 0:30 through to 1:10 his right hand remains unnecessarily concealed. Why? This would not be necessary if it were real magic. Therefore his right hand is where the real action is happening.

 

He covers it well though because throughout the demonstration his left hand continously shuffles the paper. Why? If the paper is always moving guess where everyone looks? That's right, at the paper and not at what he is about to do with the right hand. The sound also will mask any sounds his subterfuge actions will make.

 

Notice where this chaps right knee is at 0:32. Then at 0:36 for no logical reason he shuffles back and brings the bundle of paper exactly over where his right knee rested. Why does he do this? How easy would it be, before anyone even showed up to this demonstration, to have secretly dug up a small piece of grass and place a small lighter in the hole, covering it up again with the grass. The ignition system is loaded.

 

Now the key moment ... from 0:49 to 0:52 if you watch the forearm muscles of the right arm you see an unnecessary downward rotation of the right hand. He now has the ignition system in his hand. From 0:52 to 0:60 he makes extraneous movements with the left hand to create visual and auditory distraction away from the right hand's actions (i.e. lighting the paper and perhaps even reinserting the lighter back in the hole).

 

From 1:10 onwards the trick is already over for the performer, yet onlookers are led to believe it is just about to begin. From here it is pure showmanship.

 

It is a good illusion, but anyone of you could do it better than this guy with a week of training.

[Aetherous]

Awesome, Stig.

[r.w.smith]

If you turn the volume up you can hear a noise like that sounds like a lighter.

 

Rofl i think your right I didnt want to say earlier,but im certain also theres some kind of sleight of hand involved.

 

Regards,

[Neikung]

Rofl i think your right I didnt want to say earlier,but im certain also theres some kind of sleight of hand involved.

 

Regards,

 

I have seen this guy before in a video sold by David Verdesi. He is a student of Sifu Zhai Jiang Feng (David Verdesi's sifu who lives in Huang Shan). In that video, he supposedly started fire with hays using the same method (with right hand hidden underneath, moving his left hand excessively etc).

[r.w.smith]

Thanks for the input Neikung,I heard about that guy in Dr Verdesi's Video - So this is Him. However something about that whole setup looks suspicious.

 

Regards,

[Neikung]

Thanks for the input Neikung,I heard about that guy in Dr Verdesi's Video - So this is Him. However something about that whole setup looks suspicious.

 

Regards,

 

As discussed in this forum before, Zhai has been accused of fraud and Verdesi might not even have a doctorate degree. This video further heightened the suspicion. Stigweard described nicely all the telltale signs of a magician's act in this video.

 

Best,

[joeblast]

It is incredibly easy to fool people. I was a professional magician for 7 years.

*snip*

Since nobody else is playing devil's advocate

 

There are people standing on his right hand side, you can see feet there.

 

Also, if there was a hidden lighter in there, unfortunately lighters tend to explode when in a fire. Since it seems like it was a demonstration for people that didnt necessarily seem to be blind believers, he would have been outed by a lighter...and even though the video ends before a lighter would explode, you'd think a 'magician' wouldnt leave such evidence behind, especially with a live audience within spitting distance (and that's dry pasty mouth hawker spit, not loogey-distance either.) To me it doesnt look like he bring anything away from it other than his hand. At 43-44 seconds you can see his right hand is empty.

 

As far as the 'strips' of paper...come on, we've all built a fire or two before. There is an 'optimal configuration' for the paper to catch fire and perpetuate. We all saw John Chang crinkle up the newspaper in a similar configuration in order for the whole of it to catch. I may be wrong, but it sounds like someone in the audience agrees with there being nothing in the paper, as if it was just torn up on the spot.

 

As far as the flint sound at 1:04...I know the video isnt exactly 1080p, but I dont see any mid-arm muscle movement that would be indicative of a lighter motion, i.e. the extensor carpi radialis longus muscle (I just assumed same position and flinted a lighter a few times...its pretty tough not to make that muscle move there while in that position when you're really lighting a lighter.) So when then about the same sounds coming at around :56? Was he 'just testing' the lighter or something? So postulate that was a lighter sound - flames/smoke certainly didnt coincide with those sounds (again, I know it was windy but can you trick a live audience 3 feet away with something as un-subtle?) so okay...a 'lighter' sound at 1:04, but no smoke or flames until 1:28? roight! okay, postulate that was a cone of charcoal that was lit...aside from the obvious smell, how would you light just the charcoal and not the paper? Charcoal doesnt exactly catch quickly.

 

So Stig, if he lit something by 1:10, how come there is no smoke, then at 1:28 smoke & flames come billowing up? When paper catches, it catches...

 

 

The debunking doesnt add up any more convincingly, imho. Seems like one magician looking at another and offering an assessment Its not like the video camera is 'the main audience'...

 

[mwight]

i say fake because in all his pyro demo's he obscures his hands, he does the same thing on verdesi's video.

 

I'd be more impressed to see him catch just one of those little paper strips on fire so we could see what his hands are doing clearly.

[r.w.smith]

Does anybody remember this video

 

 

Looks much more convincing & he operates a school on huangshan mountain. But again i cannot verify 100% if its real. you can watch some moe videos or contact this master here.

 

http://www.yellowmountaincenter.com/QiGong.html

 

Any feedback would be much appreciated,But you know what its like around here. Most try to keep this stuff under wraps instead of helping another brother.

 

Regards

Edited December 16, 2008 by r.w.smith

[Stigweard]

 

The debunking doesnt add up any more convincingly, imho. Seems like one magician looking at another and offering an assessment Its not like the video camera is 'the main audience'...

 

 

 

LOL ... this is exactly what I was saying over in the Question about spirituality and scientific testing thread. At best all we can offer here are OPINIONS. If I am convinced that it is a fake then no matter how much windbagging goes on you wont change my opinion, and likewise if you think it is real the no ranting from me will shift you.

 

The bottom line is this ... until this same demonstration is performed under a strict scientific, double blind environment then it has to be considered....

 

[gendao]

Does anybody remember this video

 

 

Looks much more convincing & he operates a school on huangshan mountain. But again i cannot verify 100% if its real. you can watch some moe videos or contact this master here.

 

http://www.yellowmountaincenter.com/QiGong.html

 

Any feedback would be much appreciated,But you know what its like around here. Most try to keep this stuff under wraps instead of helping another brother.

 

Regards

FfoEdgB9weM

I still don't see why the guy needs an eagle's nest-size pile of newspapers, though? Unless it is to hide an ignition source underneath?

[Dean]

I don't believe it! Perhaps one day I'll be proved wrong.

[Stigweard]

FfoEdgB9weM

I still don't see why the guy needs an eagle's nest-size pile of newspapers, though? Unless it is to hide an ignition source underneath?

 

Not forgetting of course The First Rule of Wizardry: "People will believe any lie; either because they really want to or because they are afraid it is true."

 

Once again, until such 'masters' can come forward and perform their tricks under scientific conditions then no reasonable person should believe in their validity.

[genmaicha]

What is their explanation for the need to wash their hands before?

[hyok]

I see no point in performing this act on video if one is not going to do so in the most transparent fashion they can come up with.

 

i mean, really, isn't that the singular point of the video -- to prove it's real? Anyone performing such feats under suspicious conditions should be automatically regarded as a fraud.

[Stigweard]

What is their explanation for the need to wash their hands before?

 

In a good illusion the magician will offer what are called 'proofs'. These are demonstrations to apparently 'prove' that what is about to happen is done without trickery.

 

Hence getting a spectator to check the paper first, washing the hands, showing the hands empty etc. These are all 'proof' leading into the illusion.

 

I see no point in performing this act on video if one is not going to do so in the most transparent fashion they can come up with.

 

i mean, really, isn't that the singular point of the video -- to prove it's real? Anyone performing such feats under suspicious conditions should be automatically regarded as a fraud.

 

I agree

[Lover of Wisdom]

I see no point in performing this act on video if one is not going to do so in the most transparent fashion they can come up with.

 

i mean, really, isn't that the singular point of the video -- to prove it's real? Anyone performing such feats under suspicious conditions should be automatically regarded as a fraud.

 

 

I am also a professional magician (or of equal quality when it comes to talent), and the way he hid his hand and the way everything played out - the way his ego flattered itself, etc. seems contradictory to the practies supposedly undergone. If someone could truely do that, i'de guess their behaviors and personality would be a shining paragon of such ideas, but as such it looks like the paper was sprayed with something that the friction of the rubbing might react to, or a palmed match or something of the sort... flash paper to my understanding goes out to quickly to be considered viable here, but who knows.

 

IMHO

 

fake.

 

(open minded enuff to be wrong tho)

[r.w.smith]

What is their explanation for the need to wash their hands before?

 

 

Yes Genmaicha, Im almost certain that this water is some kind of chemical solution. Neikung btw,that was a great expose you did of Master Jiang a while back. You need to post more often The husband of the lady that was ripped used to visit this forum alot. Last i heard he was studying with davids old master luo kang qi in thailand. This guy was also banned from operating in thailand by the goverment. However i dont know much about his abilities so cannot comment much further. But the old saying where theres smoke theres fire usually rings true.

 

Regards

[h.uriahr]

It is incredibly easy to fool people. I was a professional magician for 7 years.

 

The 'trick' with catching the secrets of a magician is to scrutinize the actions that were not necessary. If I could truly set fire to a bundle of paper I would just get some one to pull out a random page of a random newspaper, place it on the ground and without fuss and without touching it I would burst it into flames.

 

So let's look at what is not necessary here.

 

His hands are empty, and if we are to trust the man who was examining the paper then there was nothing in the paper. However the paper is in a large loose bunch of strips. This is not necessary for the act so suspicion must first be placed here. Why is it like this? Obviously to conceal something or some action, and it does as you will soon see.

 

The audience is only situated on the left hand side of the performer. Why? Is it perhaps because he will do something that would have been revealed to those on the right side. Let us see.

 

From 0:30 through to 1:10 his right hand remains unnecessarily concealed. Why? This would not be necessary if it were real magic. Therefore his right hand is where the real action is happening.

 

He covers it well though because throughout the demonstration his left hand continously shuffles the paper. Why? If the paper is always moving guess where everyone looks? That's right, at the paper and not at what he is about to do with the right hand. The sound also will mask any sounds his subterfuge actions will make.

 

Notice where this chaps right knee is at 0:32. Then at 0:36 for no logical reason he shuffles back and brings the bundle of paper exactly over where his right knee rested. Why does he do this? How easy would it be, before anyone even showed up to this demonstration, to have secretly dug up a small piece of grass and place a small lighter in the hole, covering it up again with the grass. The ignition system is loaded.

 

Now the key moment ... from 0:49 to 0:52 if you watch the forearm muscles of the right arm you see an unnecessary downward rotation of the right hand. He now has the ignition system in his hand. From 0:52 to 0:60 he makes extraneous movements with the left hand to create visual and auditory distraction away from the right hand's actions (i.e. lighting the paper and perhaps even reinserting the lighter back in the hole).

 

From 1:10 onwards the trick is already over for the performer, yet onlookers are led to believe it is just about to begin. From here it is pure showmanship.

 

It is a good illusion, but anyone of you could do it better than this guy with a week of training.

 

Since you were a magician for awhile I thought I'd ask you just a few questions if that's ok? Criss Angel did this trick where levitated across two buildings, howd he do that? He also did a trick where he pushed a tree over, howd he do that? He does this other trick where he walks on water and the cam is going right along with him under the water, howd he do that? David Blaine ripped his heart out on a late night show, howd he do that? I'm hoping that you have some ideas on how those tricks were pulled off cuz they looked pretty cool but I'm clueless....

 

Best,

 

[Stigweard]

Since you were a magician for awhile I thought I'd ask you just a few questions if that's ok? Criss Angel did this trick where levitated across two buildings, howd he do that? He also did a trick where he pushed a tree over, howd he do that? He does this other trick where he walks on water and the cam is going right along with him under the water, howd he do that? David Blaine ripped his heart out on a late night show, howd he do that? I'm hoping that you have some ideas on how those tricks were pulled off cuz they looked pretty cool but I'm clueless....

 

Best,

 

 

LOL my friend

 

Firstly the likes of Criss Angel and David Blaine are far beyond my league and have a bucket load more cash to pull off their effects. They each also have a team of people working full-time with them in the creation and execution of their effects.

 

Secondly, did they perform their feats under stingent scientific conditions? Remember that they would inevitably offer false 'proofs' to make it appear that it was all 'trick free'. But was it performed under independent scientific scrutiny?

 

Thirdly, they are honest when they present themselves as entertainers. Though magician's will deliberately draw upon mystic traditions to flavour their work to create a lingering question around what they do.

 

Fourthly, because they are honest about their profession as entertainers I have no desire at all to reveal their secrets even if I did know them. I have no beef with them at all, in fact I admire them greatly because they were masters at the art I pursued for a long time. They brought magic onto the street and made it 'real' and gritty and in your face. A whole new audience opened up because of them and I happily made tonnes of cash riding on their coat tails.

 

Returning once more to the issue ... it is the folks who proclaim they are presenting authentic qigong powers as a means to attract followers and make $$ are the ones to whom I make my challenge.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Stigweard