What Bothers Me About Philosophical Daoism

[gossamer]

I have people who I consider good friends, on another Daoist forum, who are Philosophical Daoists.

 

But the one thing that strikes me as unusual, is that most Philosophical Daoists are ATHEISTS.

 

Perhaps because of my Christian upbringing, I need a "higher power", I'm not sure, but I find it disheartening that Phil. Daoist's DON'T believe in the supernatural.

 

How can one believe in the Dao, and NOT believe in something more tangible then this earthly life??

 

I personally think that that's weird, but what do I know?

 

I've always believed there's "something" that quite different than we humans. "Other", I'd say.

 

Welp, that's about it, and I don't write this to disrespect my Phil. Daoists friends, either.

 

I just wonder how can one believe in Dao, and not see it as different then we are??

 

Anyway, I was thinking of all of this, and just wanted to put it out there to talk about.

 

Am I being weird thinking this, or not?

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited December 16, 2008 by gossamer

[mwight]

I have people who I consider good friends, on another Daoist forum, who are Philosophical Daoists.

 

But the one thing that strikes me as unusual, is that most Philosophical Daoists are ATHEISTS.

 

Perhaps because of my Christian upbringing, I need a "higher power", I'm not sure, but I find it disheartening that Phil. Daoist's DON'T believe in the supernatural.

 

How can one believe in the Dao, and NOT believe in something more tangible then this earthy life??

 

I personally think that that's weird, but what do I know?

 

I've always believed there's "something" that quite different than we humans. "Other", I'd say.

 

Welp, that's about it, and I don't write this to disrespect my Phil. Daoists friends, either.

 

I just wonder how can one believe in Dao, and not see it as different then we are??

 

Anyway, I was thinking of all of this, and just wanted to put out there to talk about.

 

Am I being weird thinking this, or not?

 

Peace, gossamer

 

I'm a philosophical taoist, and I believe we are all apart of a living breathing awareness which manifests itself as the universe around us. I believe we are all one consciousness. Or in Christian terms we are all one with God. Every religion has a different name for and way of understanding it but in the end I think were all talking about the same thing.

[picnic]

God can only be an aspect of the whole or the whole itself. If an aspect then it exists in relationship to and dependent of the rest of the whole. God and knower of god are both required in that case, neither can be seen as more important to the role. If god is the whole, the indivisible, then calling it god has no particular meaning as it is just giving a name to something of unimaginable awe and in a way by trying to give reverence it is degraded to a thing, a concept of man "ishwara".

 

Thereby I have no need for God, truth is higher than that.

[Aetherous]

Not to offend anyone, but...

 

My opinion is that thinking about this stuff is TOTALLY pointless. Direct experience is how Lao Tzu came up with the Tao Te Ching...not conceptualizing about things that have no impact in daily lives.

 

It's good to question: "what does it matter if I know I'm one with everything, when I don't feel one with everything?"

[mwight]

Not to offend anyone, but...

 

My opinion is that thinking about this stuff is TOTALLY pointless. Direct experience is how Lao Tzu came up with the Tao Te Ching...not conceptualizing about things that have no impact in daily lives.

 

It's good to question: "what does it matter if I know I'm one with everything, when I don't feel one with everything?"

 

I don't feel at one with everything anymore either, but I had an experience of it at one point which changed my world view from an atheist. I am still against having faith in anything, I think our beliefs should be grounded in evidence and personal experience.

[gossamer]

Dear Scotty,

 

I'm just wondering.

 

I see people who are basically compassionate, real seekers, enduring (with ME especially! lol) and yet they believe in no real kind of "higher power" (god or gods).

 

I don't know, that seems strange to me.

 

Laozi never spoke about a "god" in the DDJ either, but it just feels strange to me.

 

But as I've told them, I've still got some (perhaps a lot) of Christianity in my head.

 

The Daoists have treated me way better than the Christians, so "it's a paradox, buried in a riddle, hidden in an enigma" (from the movie: 'JFK').

 

Thanks for writing!

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

Not to offend anyone, but...

 

My opinion is that thinking about this stuff is TOTALLY pointless. Direct experience is how Lao Tzu came up with the Tao Te Ching...not conceptualizing about things that have no impact in daily lives.

 

It's good to question: "what does it matter if I know I'm one with everything, when I don't feel one with everything?"

[mwight]

What if God is something were apart of, not something that created us. e.g. the cells in our body give rise to our consciousness, what if we are the cells of God...?

 

Dear Scotty,

 

I'm just wondering.

 

I see people who are basically compassionate, real seekers, enduring (with ME especially! lol) and yet they believe in no real kind of "higher power" (god or gods).

 

I don't know, that seems strange to me.

 

Laozi never spoke about a "god" in the DDJ either, but it just feels strange to me.

 

But as I've told them, I've still got some (perhaps a lot) of Christianity in my head.

 

The Daoists have treated me way better than the Christians, so "it's a paradox, buried in a riddle, hidden in an enigma" (from the movie: 'JFK').

 

Thanks for writing!

 

Peace, gossamer

[gossamer]

Ummmmmmmmm, could BE, but I've actually seen a physical spirit with a body, who or what created that?

 

Or perhaps Dao IS a creative force, and it's as simple as THAT.

 

gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What if God is something were apart of, not something that created us. e.g. the cells in our body give rise to our consciousness, what if we are the cells of God...?

[mwight]

Or maybe the words "Dao" and "God" are just words different cultures use to talk about their concepts of the same thing

 

 

Ummmmmmmmm, could BE, but I've actually seen a physical spirit with a body, who or what created that?

 

Or perhaps Dao IS a creative force, and it's as simple as THAT.

 

gossamer

Edited December 16, 2008 by mwight

[gossamer]

I'm pretty sure (but not positive) that in the new testament, that the "Word" (in John's gospel) is translated "Dao" in Chinese.

 

Now, I'm NOT saying that they are the same thing exactly (I know folks in Daoism who would get real angry, if I suggested this), but there is that similarity.

 

So, yes, I think that you are probably right.

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

Or maybe the words "Dao" and "God" are just words different cultures use to talk about their concepts of the same thing

[Aetherous]

Dear Scotty,

 

I'm just wondering.

 

I see people who are basically compassionate, real seekers, enduring (with ME especially! lol) and yet they believe in no real kind of "higher power" (god or gods).

 

I don't know, that seems strange to me.

 

Laozi never spoke about a "god" in the DDJ either, but it just feels strange to me.

 

But as I've told them, I've still got some (perhaps a lot) of Christianity in my head.

 

The Daoists have treated me way better than the Christians, so "it's a paradox, buried in a riddle, hidden in an enigma" (from the movie: 'JFK').

 

Thanks for writing!

 

Peace, gossamer

 

It's good to define what exactly God is, and also what exactly Tao is. And then to define exactly how we interact with those things (or that thing). This is very hard to do...but gather all of the quotes from the Bible that describe God that you can find. And then gather all the quotes that talk about Tao that you can find.

 

Your experience is the only thing that matters, not what other people say...even if they're compassionate, real seekers, who sound like they know a lot. If you have more experience than them, then you should stand up more for what you know.

 

It's probably because you're a more truthful seeker than they are...you're more humble...that you're more open to listening to what they say. That's a very Taoist way to be.

 

Atheism is a very non-Taoist way to be. It requires blind faith just as much as having belief in God does (for some). Because these people have never not seen God!

 

For myself, I believe in God. Higher powers have been at work in my life. I can't explain it or comprehend it. It does still require some blind faith, because it's elusive...yet undeniable, at least for me personally.

 

It's always personal.

[Eric23]

Which leads us to ask' "where did Tao come from?"

 

Former Christian myself, have never been able to shake the deeply seated belief that there is more going on here than meets the eye.

[gossamer]

Dear Scotty,

 

I DO know one thing, we're neighbors!

 

I'm in Southern Iowa, maybe 80 to 90 miles from the Wisconsin border (maybe less).

 

Minus 14 here tonight, tomorrows HIGH IS 8 DEGREES!!! Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

gossamer

[Mak_Tin_Si]

First of all, I would like to say something here again as a Taoist master who have experience in this for a long time.. TAOISM is not only DDJ... So LaoZi is not the ONLY one in Taoism. If you want to know which and where mention about GOD, I can suggest you seek for more scriptures in Taoism and then you will know.

 

Also, GOD in Taoism is not like those Jesus kind of god, Human have to train in taoism study for a long time and reach a certain level where they can be controlled of themselve with their own soul without the body. Then the person die and become a "ghost-immortal", training as a ghost-immortal for a period.. and then re-cycle to become a human again.. train very hard.. and hopefully you achieve super long life span like 150-200 etc,. Then you become a ground-immortal.. and then you will go on to the next stage which is going out of the society and go in the deep forest and train more.. one day, you meditate and your body will burn up and you leave the world to the other dimension.. this you become a Sky-immortal.. in this dimension you train more and you come back to the world here to teach your student something, then leave again... from then on.. you achieve more and more.. level up and soon achieve higher level of immortal. and eventually become the stage of GOD, which is over the stage of highest immortals..

 

As seen, GOD are also from human.. at least as what taoism teach you to be.

 

We do not "believe" in GOD or IMMORTALS in taoism , even religion, but we just KNOW it is there because we know and we feel, we see and we learn from them all the time. You will know when you learn really from a good master.

 

Mak Tin Si

 

 

I have people who I consider good friends, on another Daoist forum, who are Philosophical Daoists.

 

But the one thing that strikes me as unusual, is that most Philosophical Daoists are ATHEISTS.

 

Perhaps because of my Christian upbringing, I need a "higher power", I'm not sure, but I find it disheartening that Phil. Daoist's DON'T believe in the supernatural.

 

How can one believe in the Dao, and NOT believe in something more tangible then this earthly life??

 

I personally think that that's weird, but what do I know?

 

I've always believed there's "something" that quite different than we humans. "Other", I'd say.

 

Welp, that's about it, and I don't write this to disrespect my Phil. Daoists friends, either.

 

I just wonder how can one believe in Dao, and not see it as different then we are??

 

Anyway, I was thinking of all of this, and just wanted to put out there to talk about.

 

Am I being weird thinking this, or not?

 

Peace, gossamer

[eighty4proof]

Not to offend anyone, but...

 

My opinion is that thinking about this stuff is TOTALLY pointless. Direct experience is how Lao Tzu came up with the Tao Te Ching...not conceptualizing about things that have no impact in daily lives.

 

It's good to question: "what does it matter if I know I'm one with everything, when I don't feel one with everything?"

 

Very well put. Personally I don't care if there is a God, a heaven, an afterlife, whatever else. I'm perfectly happy knowing that I will return to the pool of energy that is the source and it makes no difference how long my life is. Quality not quantity I think the need for a God or afterlife or whatever is just a function of the ego.

[gossamer]

My story of seeing a spirit:

 

 

 

In the late Spring of 1987, I was living on a kind of 'hippie commune' just West of Little Rock, Arkansas.

 

The lady who owned this land had the first 'New Age' bookstore in Little Rock, across the street from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock.

 

She was big time into "channeling", and Quartz Crystals (as most people know, some of the best Quartz in the world comes from Arkansas).

 

Anyway, she had kind of "activated" her land (about 10 acres) with crystals everywhere.

 

She and her daughters had horses, and one evening right at sunset, one of them got out of it's pen, and about six of us were trying to catch it, trapising through the woods and fields, I was in the lead trying to catch this pony.

 

All of a sudden, right in front of me, was this rectangular 'thing' that looked like a children's rug (it's "fur" resembled Buffalo fur, especially around their necks) that one buys from Wal-Mart, but where we have arms and legs it had these sorts of 'appendages', and where it's head was, was this little bitty round thing.

 

There was a stock pond just a few feet in front of it, and it seemed terrified (or that's the vibe that I got) that we were all after it, and it dove into the stockpond, I saw the water splash, and I heard it as well.

 

It obviously had weight, and mass, to make the water splash like that.

 

Immediately, it came to me that I had seen Anasazi pictographs that looked EXACTLY LIKE THIS.

 

But those were about nine hundred + miles away, in New Mexico.

 

This 'thing' was "running", but not as humans run, before it dove into the stock pond.

 

So, those are my stories.

 

I have two more, but I think that I'll wait till we all know each other better, to tell them.

 

These stories (and a couple others) are the reason why I think that Laozi was actually speaking about REAL spirits in the Dao de Jing.

 

 

Peace, gossamer

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Of course Lao Zi did not ONLY have DDj.. Please open up yourself and maybe you will find out many many more scriptures that are written by Lao Zi also, not only DDJ.. There are TONS that talks about ghost, god, heaven, etc,.. so many..

 

 

My story of seeing a spirit:

In the late Spring of 1987, I was living on a kind of 'hippie commune' just West of Little Rock, Arkansas.

 

The lady who owned this land had the first 'New Age' bookstore in Little Rock, across the street from the University of Arkansas at Little Rock.

 

She was big time into "channeling", and Quartz Crystals (as most people know, some of the best Quartz in the world comes from Arkansas).

 

Anyway, she had kind of "activated" her land (about 10 acres) with crystals everywhere.

 

She and her daughters had horses, and one evening right at sunset, one of them got out of it's pen, and about six of us were trying to catch it, trapising through the woods and fields, I was in the lead trying to catch this pony.

 

All of a sudden, right in front of me, was this rectangular 'thing' that looked like a children's rug (it's "fur" resembled Buffalo fur, especially around their necks) that one buys from Wal-Mart, but where we have arms and legs it had these sorts of 'appendages', and where it's head was, was this little bitty round thing.

 

There was a stock pond just a few feet in front of it, and it seemed terrified (or that's the vibe that I got) that we were all after it, and it dove into the stockpond, I saw the water splash, and I heard it as well.

 

It obviously had weight, and mass, to make the water splash like that.

 

Immediately, it came to me that I had seen Anasazi pictographs that looked EXACTLY LIKE THIS.

 

But those were about nine hundred + miles away, in New Mexico.

 

This 'thing' was "running", but not as humans run, before it dove into the stock pond.

 

So, those are my stories.

 

I have two more, but I think that I'll wait till we all know each other better, to tell them.

 

These stories (and a couple others) are the reason why I think that Laozi was actually speaking about REAL spirits in the Dao de Jing.

Peace, gossamer

[Aetherous]

Dear Scotty,

 

I DO know one thing, we're neighbors!

 

I'm in Southern Iowa, maybe 80 to 90 miles from the Wisconsin border (maybe less).

 

Minus 14 here tonight, tomorrows HIGH IS 8 DEGREES!!! Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr blink.gif

 

gossamer

 

Sweet! Yeah I tried to go jogging today and made it 1/2 mile! Brrr...

[mianguo]

I have people who I consider good friends, on another Daoist forum, who are Philosophical Daoists.

 

But the one thing that strikes me as unusual, is that most Philosophical Daoists are ATHEISTS.

 

Perhaps because of my Christian upbringing, I need a "higher power", I'm not sure, but I find it disheartening that Phil. Daoist's DON'T believe in the supernatural.

 

I'm a philosophical Daoist, but I'm not Atheist.

 

How are those two so different that you could not be philosophical Daoist and believe in Dao?

 

Lao Tzu was also a philosophical one and he believed in a higher power which he named "Dao". Religious Daoism came later, at the Han Dynasty.

[Unconditioned]

Not to offend anyone, but...

 

My opinion is that thinking about this stuff is TOTALLY pointless. Direct experience is how Lao Tzu came up with the Tao Te Ching...not conceptualizing about things that have no impact in daily lives.

 

It's good to question: "what does it matter if I know I'm one with everything, when I don't feel one with everything?"

 

Ah, great point. Both the object of knowledge and the object of feeling are one in the same though. To push one away or to favor one over the other creates a division, duality. Both are of the whole.

 

So, if you have an idea that you know you're one with everything that is very different than just being aware of it (and aware of the idea). Likewise, if you have a feeling/sensation that you're one with everything that is also very different than being aware of it (and of the feeling).

 

They're both the same - images burned in our memory the second they manifest, already in the past by the time we realize it.

 

But if we're aware, then we expose heart and mind both for what they are and can experience truth... at least that's the ideas spewing from the mind of this conditioned one =)

 

I'm a philosophical Daoist, but I'm not Atheist.

 

How are those two so different that you could not be philosophical Daoist and believe in Dao?

 

Lao Tzu was also a philosophical one and he believed in a higher power which he named "Dao". Religious Daoism came later, at the Han Dynasty.

 

He didn't believe in anything. He was part of everything and still is, we're still talking about him right now! A higher power implies separation (Self and other) but in reality there is no difference it is only our minds that discriminate between the two.

 

Put an easier way, there can be nothing added or taken away from "everything". If you try to take away from "everything" then you don't have everything anymore do you? Same for adding to it.

 

When someone sees they no longer need to believe. I'd have to check references but I don't think the word 'believe' is mentioned anywhere in the TTC.

[doc benway]

I have people who I consider good friends, on another Daoist forum, who are Philosophical Daoists.

 

But the one thing that strikes me as unusual, is that most Philosophical Daoists are ATHEISTS.

 

Perhaps because of my Christian upbringing, I need a "higher power", I'm not sure, but I find it disheartening that Phil. Daoist's DON'T believe in the supernatural.

 

How can one believe in the Dao, and NOT believe in something more tangible then this earthly life??

 

I personally think that that's weird, but what do I know?

 

I've always believed there's "something" that quite different than we humans. "Other", I'd say.

 

Welp, that's about it, and I don't write this to disrespect my Phil. Daoists friends, either.

 

I just wonder how can one believe in Dao, and not see it as different then we are??

 

Anyway, I was thinking of all of this, and just wanted to put it out there to talk about.

 

Am I being weird thinking this, or not?

 

Peace, gossamer

I think this is a good post and a good question that many of us come to. I don't consider myself an "-ist" of any particular flavor. Nevertheless, I would like to throw out some words about how one might reconcile "philosophical Daoism" with the need to believe in a higher power or God in the Abrahamic sense.

 

First, I think it's important not to fight the deeply ingrained "belief" (I'd prefer to call it knowledge) that there is a higher power of some sort. You have that feeling because it is true. There is so much out there that is greater and more magnificent than us and what we can understand with our puny brains. All you need to do is look at the sky on a clear dark night or look at hummingbird or a mountain. And who knows what exists outside the realm of our very limited spectrum of sensory perception?

 

A central theme of "philosophical Daoism" is the doctrine of wu wei. Go with, not against. The reason that wu wei is such an important concept is that it teaches and is a reflection of the "truth" that can be found at the core of all religious traditions. Namely, that God and man are one, nature and man are one, the universe and man are one, Dao and man are one. Man is an aperture through which the universe is aware of itself, just as is a fly and a dog and a tree. Creation is self aware through life of all kinds. The feeling of being separate is a consequence of our elegant thought process and sensory apparatus.

 

A fundamental difference, however, is how God is taught to children. In the Abrahamic tradition, God is personified. "He" is a king, a lord, a judge, and so forth. "He" experiences and demonstrates human emotions like anger, love, kindness, compassion, wrath, and so on. Fascinating how God is portrayed as infinite and one but is male and has lots of human emotions... This is an intentional and useful technique to control children and those who choose to follow rather than investigate but it's a cheap trick and is seen through by anyone willing to dig into the mystical traditions of any of the major religions.

 

It's my belief that Daoism (like Buddha) avoided talking or teaching specifically about the nature of God and reality because you can't say anything meaningful about everything. Where is everything located? What does it include? What does it exclude? What came before and after it? What color is it? It is what it is. It's like trying to tell someone how you beat your heart or digest your food. You do it every day, every second, and you can't say anything meaningful about it. Anything that can be said or taught about the nature of God is doomed to become an image for the people to try to cling to and become attached to so isn't it better just to drop it altogether? So the Buddhists maintain the noble silence and focus on the mind and experience. The Daoists focus, similarly, on self-cultivation and also put a strong emphasis on the connection between man and nature. Both of these methods de-emphasize the tendency to separate oneself from God which leads to worship and rather emphasize the living experience, a direct experience of God. Prayer does this as well but it's important to first get past all of the political BS that gets in the way.

 

Anyway, I have no problem at all reconciling philosophical Daoism with the fulfillment that there is some magnificent, glorious power that encompasses all and is all. The only thing is, I'm such a puny little piece of it that it's true nature is not something I can ever capture or put into a concept or thought or book, no matter how complex. All I can do is open my eyes and ears and heart and revel in it every moment I choose.

[dragonfire]

If it had weight and mass, I wouldn't call it a spirit. Spirits are supposed to be able to go through matter. I'd call it an unidentified physical object. UPO? lol.

 

I used to go to church. I remember the day when the pastor said, whoever wants to be baptised come on up now. Be saved! Bla bla. I was about 10 years old. I thought what

a joke. Can people really be saved through baptising? And can people really believe in something they have no evidence or proof of. I never went and got baptised so I'm not a christian. Over the years, I've seen people get re-baptised because they lost their faith and now they are back. So I had a lot of questions

growing up and I didn't really believe in god. I talked and argued with pastors and I said, has god ever

talked to you? Always, the answer was No! Then, how do you know he exists? They say only faith brings them.

 

Well, I can say I was an atheists for a while after. I was still itching for the truth, until I found the Tao. I studied every religion only to find out that they all had things in common. It was like the Tao was the answer

to them all. I believe it is.

 

Here's what I believe. I never became a christian because I didn't believe in the bible. I believed jesus existed, but I did not believe in the bible. I believe jesus was enlightened, just like buddha. We all

have that potential. The fact is you will never know what exactly happened in history. You need to find that enlightenment yourself. Scotty said it right. You have to experience it yourself.

 

The christians are not wrong. They only know one part of the equation. They have faith and love. That is important in the way. They are missing the vital component of cultivation. Through faith, love, self cultivation, you will reach enlightenment.

 

They say god can not be described. Only experienced. But he or she exists, whatever you want to call it.

 

My story of seeing a spirit:

 

It obviously had weight, and mass, to make the water splash like that.

 

Immediately, it came to me that I had seen Anasazi pictographs that looked EXACTLY LIKE THIS.

 

But those were about nine hundred + miles away, in New Mexico.

 

This 'thing' was "running", but not as humans run, before it dove into the stock pond.

 

So, those are my stories.

 

I have two more, but I think that I'll wait till we all know each other better, to tell them.

 

These stories (and a couple others) are the reason why I think that Laozi was actually speaking about REAL spirits in the Dao de Jing.

Peace, gossamer

[ZenStatic]

Your experience is the only thing that matters, not what other people say...even if they're compassionate, real seekers, who sound like they know a lot.

 

So then, by your standard, the TTJ matters not as well, but you reference that.

[Aetherous]

Think of it this way: you use a map that someone else made to explore new territory, but once you walk around the land maybe you will see flaws with the map. Yet, without the map in the first place maybe it would be a lot more challenging to get to your level of understanding.

 

Once you have personal experience, that's more important than what anyone else says.

 

[h.uriahr]

Daoists arent atheists. There's a different concept of god. I used to be a hard chargin christian but I got rid of alot of those beliefs when I started studying on my own. It is hard to rid yourself of the way you view god but give it time, if that's what you want. If by atheist you mean they dont believe in your god or one thats similar then sure, theyre atheists.