reversed sleep pattern over long periods

[alexandrov]

Hi All

 

I was just wondering from an energetic standpoint weather it would be unwise to adpot a reversed sleep

 

pattern over long periods of time (years) where one sleeps during the day and is awake at night?

 

 

I am reffering to a permanent pattern where one sticks with this regimen daily for years or decades.

 

 

 

I know humans evoled to have melatonin stimulated by darkness and that sunlight is beneficial to the body in

 

many ways, and feel free to comment on such topics, but my main question is one reffering to

 

processes/phenomena OTHER then sunlight or lack of it

 

 

I know some people like sivananda advised against it for unspecified energetic reasons, and that certain

 

taoists talk about "ideal" times during the night for sleep etc.

 

 

So feel free to share what you know or personal experinces on this topic, as it seems that is is not something

 

too

 

frequently discussed in cultivation circles.

 

 

 

thanks

[Mak_Tin_Si]

hi,

 

Reverse sleep pattern is not good in general for any Taoist. This is because you are reversing the YIN and YANG in your body too. Which turns your life around in a long time and will change your luck from bad to good and from good to bad. So if you are really being chased after and many people just want you to be dead, yes it is a good way to hide and change your life. But not for a normal person.

 

In the Ching Dynasty, there was a man who is a very famous person call Jeung ji Dung, he is a general who work for the queen back then. He is also a teacher. He wrote lots of books and teaching materials. But somehow he reversed his sleeping pattern. He sleep during daytime and work at night. So he actually call in people to a meeting with him around 2-3am. This changed his life aruond and made him a very successful man, but when he die, his tragedy comes agian. He was murdered and hang up in the forest, while dog eats his body and his wife was also like this too. After a few years, people found him and barried him beside a bridge. until 2006, he was found again and finally moved back in a graveyard.

 

 

 

Hi All

 

I was just wondering from an energetic standpoint weather it would be unwise to adpot a reversed sleep

 

pattern over long periods of time (years) where one sleeps during the day and is awake at night?

I am reffering to a permanent pattern where one sticks with this regimen daily for years or decades.

I know humans evoled to have melatonin stimulated by darkness and that sunlight is beneficial to the body in

 

many ways, and feel free to comment on such topics, but my main question is one reffering to

 

processes/phenomena OTHER then sunlight or lack of it

I know some people like sivananda advised against it for unspecified energetic reasons, and that certain

 

taoists talk about "ideal" times during the night for sleep etc.

So feel free to share what you know or personal experinces on this topic, as it seems that is is not something

 

too

 

frequently discussed in cultivation circles.

thanks

Edited December 25, 2008 by Mak_Tin_Si

[Anabhogya-Carya]

Well, you would be ignoring your circadian rythm. People who do night shift work, sleeping all day, are generally more unhealthy. Your are resisting your biological clock that, to an extent, determines periods of high mental function.

 

although I always thought it was romantic to be a awake during the night.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

By reversing sleep pattern also means you absorb the YIn energy instead of the YANg which means you as a YANG PERSON do not have enough YANG QI in your body which lead to weakness and tiredness. That also means you are shortening your life span too.

 

 

 

Well, you would be ignoring your circadian rythm. People who do night shift work, sleeping all day, are generally more unhealthy. Your are resisting your biological clock that, to an extent, determines periods of high mental function.

 

although I always thought it was romantic to be a awake during the night.

[bbsoft0]

If we look at nature, there are many animals that are nocturnal, the opposite of the diurnal human lifestyle.

The intermediate crepuscular schedule (twilight activity) is also common. There are some reasons for this.

1. A form of niche differentiation, where a species' niche is partitioned not by resources but by time itself

2. Keeping out of the heat of the day

 

Other animals, like cats, rabbits and mice, have the behavior of sleeping partly during the daytime and partly during the night (metaturnal).

 

I read a Taoist Text in which the timing was discussed briefly, which stated that "The Tao does not have bad timing."

 

Some people say that the hour of Tzu (11 PM - 1 AM) and Wu (11 AM - 1 PM) ar the most auspicious times for practice. These are the periods when yin and yang energy begin the waning and waxing.

But this does not mean that practice at other times would not be successful.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Your quote "The Tao does not have bad timing" is explained wrong. That is why you have mistaken the meaning of it.

 

The phrase tell you that there is a use for all the time period in nature. But depends on what you are trying to get from the training.

 

Let me give my examples and experience...

 

If you want to train something that is positive, you need more yang energy, so you can train around the daytime, 11-1pm, pretty much enough yang energy for you.

 

If you want to train something that is negative, such as the five ghost methods, you need the yin energy so you go train at night, 9-11pm. That gives you the negative energy, yin qi you need for doing it.

 

So tao give you all the time you need and you have to use it wisely.

 

We are human, not these cat and mice. So we follow what human are suppose to follow in nature. If you want to be a mice or cat, you can try following them of course. They are part of nature, but their body is dfferent and that is why mice are always so dirty and negative. They are dirty. If you have mice around the house, you will be sick soon or later. If you like to compare yourself to mice and cats, why do you live in a home and sleep in your bed, just go out and sleep in the grass or even in tunnels like them.

 

This means human do develope a way of living and you surely did already get used to it and it is passed down from generations to generations by DNA too. So we must learn the way of tao by knowing this theory and cycle behind us. Use it wisely.

 

We are human, we need yang qi (mainly) to servive and live a life. So we much sleep at night to avoid the YIn energy coming in and we need more Yang energy in the body.

 

That was a mis-understanding to the taoism text. But good that you heard of it.

 

 

 

If we look at nature, there are many animals that are nocturnal, the opposite of the diurnal human lifestyle.

The intermediate crepuscular schedule (twilight activity) is also common. There are some reasons for this.

1. A form of niche differentiation, where a species' niche is partitioned not by resources but by time itself

2. Keeping out of the heat of the day

 

Other animals, like cats, rabbits and mice, have the behavior of sleeping partly during the daytime and partly during the night (metaturnal).

 

I read a Taoist Text in which the timing was discussed briefly, which stated that "The Tao does not have bad timing."

 

Some people say that the hour of Tzu (11 PM - 1 AM) and Wu (11 AM - 1 PM) ar the most auspicious times for practice. These are the periods when yin and yang energy begin the waning and waxing.

But this does not mean that practice at other times would not be successful.

 

 

I always tell my student..

 

"Tao really give you everything, but you do have to need the knowledge to use it wisely. Or else you are just fooling yuorself with fantacy"

 

If you know that tao have no bad timing, it doens't really means that all the periods are good for ONE type of practise. You must know how to use the resource of nature WISELY by understanding the theory behind first and then work around it.

 

If you think RICE is good for health, can you JUST EAT RICE all the time and get all the nutrients you need for living? the answer is NO. You can try, but that is a foolish way to eat though.

[bbsoft0]

Your quote "The Tao does not have bad timing" is explained wrong. That is why you have mistaken the meaning of it.

 

The phrase tell you that there is a use for all the time period in nature. But depends on what you are trying to get from the training.

 

Let me give my examples and experience...

 

If you want to train something that is positive, you need more yang energy, so you can train around the daytime, 11-1pm, pretty much enough yang energy for you.

 

If you want to train something that is negative, such as the five ghost methods, you need the yin energy so you go train at night, 9-11pm. That gives you the negative energy, yin qi you need for doing it.

 

So tao give you all the time you need and you have to use it wisely.

 

We are human, not these cat and mice. So we follow what human are suppose to follow in nature. If you want to be a mice or cat, you can try following them of course. They are part of nature, but their body is dfferent and that is why mice are always so dirty and negative. They are dirty. If you have mice around the house, you will be sick soon or later. If you like to compare yourself to mice and cats, why do you live in a home and sleep in your bed, just go out and sleep in the grass or even in tunnels like them.

 

This means human do develope a way of living and you surely did already get used to it and it is passed down from generations to generations by DNA too. So we must learn the way of tao by knowing this theory and cycle behind us. Use it wisely.

 

We are human, we need yang qi (mainly) to servive and live a life. So we much sleep at night to avoid the YIn energy coming in and we need more Yang energy in the body.

 

That was a mis-understanding to the taoism text. But good that you heard of it.

I always tell my student..

 

"Tao really give you everything, but you do have to need the knowledge to use it wisely. Or else you are just fooling yuorself with fantacy"

 

If you know that tao have no bad timing, it doens't really means that all the periods are good for ONE type of practise. You must know how to use the resource of nature WISELY by understanding the theory behind first and then work around it.

 

If you think RICE is good for health, can you JUST EAT RICE all the time and get all the nutrients you need for living? the answer is NO. You can try, but that is a foolish way to eat though.

 

 

You words are acceptable. But my point was ADAPTABILITY and NO FIXATION.

 

For example, you are used to eat rice at 10 AM, chicken at 2 PM, and soup at 6 PM. Does it mean that is important to eat the same food at the same time for the rest of your life? Can't you have some variety in your food and your timing? Is it healthy to be stuck in the schedule?

 

Of course, the recommended lifestyle is sleep at night and be awake at day. But there are times when is better to go with other program (temporarily).

If you happen to be in a desert - is better to sleep when the sun is hot and to walk in the evening or night when is more tolerable. Or maybe you met a dear friend who was unseen for decades, and you have only one night to talk with him (all night). It is better to adapt your lifestyle and use that night to catch up.

 

But the best example would be DARK ROOM RETREATS, Mantak Chia also has this type of training.

These retreats last for weeks, the room is totally dark, and people inside do not know when is day or night.

But the results obtained are very good and worth modifying the sleep pattern. And I don't think that this training is for something negative.

 

There are some accomplished taoists need only 1 hour of sleep/day. Is there a problem that they are awake much of the night?

 

 

So my point is not that all the periods are good for one type of practice. My point is that there are many types of circumstances and many types of practices (which can extend themselves over many weeks). FLEXIBILITY and ADAPTIBILITY are important, people must see the PRINCIPLE and not the TECHNIQUE.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

It is always better to live a FIXED schedule because just like nature, you build up a non-stop pattern in your life cycle and that will let you flow with nature's pattern if you do it right. This give you heath and wealth.

 

If you always change your living style and fiddle around, you will just mess yourself up because you are falling out of track all the time, think about if a planet spins sometimes slow, sometimes fast.. and not sync to the others' speed. What will happen someday? BAANG!

 

Mantak Chia is really not a taoist, he is just a chi gung practitioners who teach "misleading" stuff to the westerners by using his superb english skills cosmetics. I can say this becaues he do promote sex chi gung which he claims to be a taoist practise. IT IS NOT! That is NOT in taosim system for sure! It just brings you harm and nothing much. As some people complained already in this forum..

 

There is no good for absorbing the YIN energy for a normal person.

 

Those who sleep for 1 hr a day are trained for special reasons, they do build up ALOT of yang energy and sometimes have special scheudles to follow in trianing to absorb the extra YANG QI that they need for living in another methods. But do you know it, it you do not, then you cannot do it! I wonder who on this forum can do this and who can sleep for only 1hr and still be healthy.

 

There is a pattern in nature, YIN and YANG energy works with your body and there is no way you can change it. EXcept you want to be a human living anti-nature, which lead you to death soon.

 

 

Mak Tin Si

 

You words are acceptable. But my point was ADAPTABILITY and NO FIXATION.

 

For example, you are used to eat rice at 10 AM, chicken at 2 PM, and soup at 6 PM. Does it mean that is important to eat the same food at the same time for the rest of your life? Can't you have some variety in your food and your timing? Is it healthy to be stuck in the schedule?

 

Of course, the recommended lifestyle is sleep at night and be awake at day. But there are times when is better to go with other program (temporarily).

If you happen to be in a desert - is better to sleep when the sun is hot and to walk in the evening or night when is more tolerable. Or maybe you met a dear friend who was unseen for decades, and you have only one night to talk with him (all night). It is better to adapt your lifestyle and use that night to catch up.

 

But the best example would be DARK ROOM RETREATS, Mantak Chia also has this type of training.

These retreats last for weeks, the room is totally dark, and people inside do not know when is day or night.

But the results obtained are very good and worth modifying the sleep pattern. And I don't think that this training is for something negative.

 

There are some accomplished taoists need only 1 hour of sleep/day. Is there a problem that they are awake much of the night?

So my point is not that all the periods are good for one type of practice. My point is that there are many types of circumstances and many types of practices (which can extend themselves over many weeks). FLEXIBILITY and ADAPTIBILITY are important, people must see the PRINCIPLE and not the TECHNIQUE.

[Mal]

Hi alexandrov,

 

I've never really grown out of my teenage stay up all night, sleep all day pattern (it's 2:25 am currently ) and I find as soon as I no longer have social pressures or work forcing me to get up at the "correct" time I seem to want to stay up till dawn then go to sleep. I also like to get up in the morning on weekends, sleep the afternoon away and then get up at sunset till around 2am and repeat. I call that my 4 day weekend

 

However for the first time EVER I considered getting up early to do some practice yesterday. Of course I didn't I kept hitting snooze and reseting my alarm and slept in till 9. Squashed my practices down to fit into the hour I had available. Interesting to see a change in my sleeping habits.

 

Never had the chance to do it long term. My partner works shift work and you can see the time changes suck the energy out of her. When she is at uni it basically becomes a grind of work, eat, study, sleep. And it's quite difficult for her to actually get enough sleep.

 

i.e. She will be home tomorow around 10am after work and exercising. Wind down and go to sleep 11 or 12PM and then usually wake up around 4~6pm So she might get 4 to 6 hrs sleep with another short nap of an hour or 2 before going to work again at midnight.

 

you might enjoy http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showto...olyphasic+sleep

 

Any reason for attempting a sleep in the day, awake at night lifestyle?

 

p.s. I'd better go to bed soon so I can get enough sleep before the cricket starts tomorrow

[Harold]

I did jobs as nightwatcher,so I do now,and I feel it is right to say that its not the healthiest way to stay up nights.

I found the explanations of MakTin Si quite interesting,what I try is to minimize the declination of YangChi by doing some ChiGung when I have to stay awake.

Spiritualy I try to stay away from negativity,hoping to not generate bad karma.In a long term perspective I will arrange my life in another way ,because I feel it`s best to go to sleep when night comes!

Peace&stay wake

[alexandrov]

Any reason for attempting a sleep in the day, awake at night lifestyle?

 

 

well no, not really but I work an overnight job and frequently stay up all night during final exam time. However

 

I take classes in the day so.........well I think you get the idea, basically a lot of switching around of my sleep

 

pattern

 

I simply find that switching to and from a normal sleeping pattern and a reversed one makes me abnormally

 

tired

 

even when I do manage to get a decent number of hours in the quality seems to not be the same. I am

 

wondering if this is in fact due to excess yin chi entering the body from being up at night or from repidiatly

 

switching the circadian rhythm aroud or something else.

 

 

note: I have never reversed the sleeping pattern completely even for one week so perhaps if this happened I could adjust normally??

[Mak_Tin_Si]

A long time ago, I have a student who learn from me, he is a night-shift security who work for a college. This man was very strong looking but what happen to him really teach others a lesson. First, he do learn kungfu and he practise very hard, so you may think he have LOTs of yang chi in him, healthy and huge in body size. But in the college, one night, he finally met this spirit.

 

One night, he was sitting on the information place in the lobby, lights were bright, nobody is there.. 8pm...

 

Now, all of a suddent, all lights shut for a few second, he saw a black shadow flies by his vision, with a "AAAAaa...!" sound. It was so real. Then the lights got back on. He was shaking his head, saying to himself "STAY AWAKE!!!". After 5 sec, the phone rang! Holy cow, this guy got shocked!

 

The phone was from "the other building beside" (college building). So, he thought : "how come? someone got locked in the next building?" He answer the phone, but no one talks, he here car and street sound.. He hang up and decided to go check this out.

 

So he ran over to the next building and the doors are locked. So he have to open these doors. When he got into the building, he went upstairs into the place where the kitchen was (kitchen for class).. After he went there, he felt a big FORCE "pushing" him forward like many hands push him forward by tap tap tap...

 

He cannot control his feet and he just got "pushed" into the kitchen. Lights blinked once and he felt SUPER FREEZING air coming at him. He was scared already and terrified by all these "ghost" around. He thought it was the fridge, but then the fridge was not open! Then he start to hear sound... "talking" with mumbling voices and it seems like there are a GRUOP of gathering going on.. He RAN DOWN and FLY out the building.. went back to the lobby of the next building and LOCKED the doors.

 

He called me for emmergency help, I have did a fu for him by distance for protection and block all those "things" from going to him. It was already 2am...

 

When I did th distance fu for him, he felt it right away, heat BURSTING out of his body and he feel like fire burining on him. Afterward, he sweat like a dog and wet his clothings. Finally, he knew what this was. He saw a golden rim of light around his body from my fu and finally felt safe for the night. The lights seems brighter to him and he start to relief. After that, he typed all those scary stuff on his blog online and shared with his other friends.

 

Then.. story didn't end yet. He asked his senior supervisor about this college "stuff". The supervisor told him, ALL of the security have got "something" like this already. Just that no body want to talk about it and they just leave it aside, that is why NOBODY want to do night shift here after 8pm. But since he is new, so he got the slot for the luck. Wa!!

 

So he found out that this college was build on a land that was burnt by a big fire long time ago.. and many people died from this fire before. Before this happen, it was 2 industrial buildings.. scary thing is that these "people" are claimed to be still there and "very active" at night around 8pm-4am. After 4am, they are gone and back to peace.

 

So I got in this case and start to fix this up for them. After 7 days of fixing, with fu and ceremonies, all the people working for the security group told me what happen after my "treatment".

 

Here is what these securities guys told me after 7days I am done with that place.

 

"I felt 2 very powerful 'people' beside me when walking through the hallway, they are not scary and I felt they are there to help me and protect me. So I feel very safe walking around. I even went to the next building at night, nothing happen agian. Nothing. Really, it worked!"

 

"I was in the washroom one morning after the day you came, shitting.. and all of a suddent this INVISIBLE guy was beside my slot! The building is not open yet, there should be NO body in this building, but I heard the toilet flushed and paper roll rolling non-stop, I was shocked! Then I hold on to your FU and point it upward. That sound stopped instantly and everything return to peace!"

 

"After 20yrs working here, I finally felt peace and safe working here. Even my shoulder pain and lack of sleep got cured too. I never wonder that these problems are caused by these "things" in the building!"

 

All of the people here that I helped know nothing about Taoism and they are whites and one korean, total of 7 people in the team. Very interesting experience, ghost busting for a college. Wow!

 

This student of mine later on love the trianing in Taoism and have more interest in learning after this case. He felt that it would just help others who have the simular case like this one. So he started his training and there start his way to taoism!

 

Mak Tin Si

[alexandrov]

Forgot to mention the whole gan hao theory of things in some schools of chinese medicine

 

Gan Hao is the body's back up energy the body produces when it is tired but does not sleep

 

(probably is related with cortisol or other similar stress hormones)

 

So when one is tired and does not sleep the body creates gan hao which will serve to prevent sleep

 

......so once gan hao is created it will make it more difficult to sleep even though thebody is still

 

exhausted. This effet can be seen if one is tired and wants t otake a nap, but does not and then feels less

 

tired at a later point

[alexandrov]

another thing to add i have noticed recently. When I do stay up all night and sleep at aroung 5-7 am and wake up at around 12-2 pm I crave more yang foods then I normally would. Usually I have a definite craving for meat throughout the rest of the day that I normally dont otherwise get on a day where I sleep at a more normal time.