Another One On MASTERS And MONEY

[gossamer]

OK, here's the deal.

 

For someone to ask a $300.00 "Donation" to "BECOME" a Daoist , is WRONG .

 

I have no problem paying for talismans or things like that, or for books, or training materials, which cost the teacher money, but for "transferring a lineage" this CANNOT BE BOUGHT, no matter what anyone tells you.

 

And if it CAN be bought, how much is it REALLY WORTH?

 

It's like I paid for every copy of the DDJ (TTC) that I have, except the few that I downloaded off the internet, and even then, I paid for paper and ink and electricity to run the computer and copier.

 

I have no problem paying for materials or books, or any of that.

 

But much of Daoism can be learned from nature.

 

I don't necessarily equate nature with the Great Dao, yes, it is that, but it's even more than that, more like our modern model of "The Force", in the 'Star Wars' movies.

 

But I'm firmly OPPOSED to charging money for teaching spirituality .

 

Call it "donations", or whatever you will, it's still charging money for teaching Dao.

 

This is WRONG, and if you think that you can BUY the Dao, then you are as lost to the Dark side of 'The Force' as Vader was in the 'Star Wars' movies.

 

There are other ways to support a Temple, or a place of teaching.

 

Can you BUY nature?

 

Yes, you can buy a great vacation, to a great place, but what you take from that place, is up to you, and Dao.

 

Nature is a great teacher, the greatest teacher of all.

 

Many years ago, I was involved in the Western Magical Tradition, all of this selling the teachings went on there too.

 

It was WRONG then, and it's WRONG now, here with trying to sell Dao.

 

Only a fool would believe that the Great Dao could be marketed, and SOLD.

 

Again, paying for talismans or books, or teaching materials, or things of that nature, I have no problems with.

 

But anything beyond that, I have very serious reservations about, even if you call it "donations".

 

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited December 20, 2008 by gossamer

[Duifang]

You're shouting at us. (THIS IS SHOUTING.)

 

The Tao Bums > Tao Lounge > Taoist Discussion > Shocked, Saddened, and Disappointed

... Way too complicated.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

And morality is context sensitive.

 

Way too complicated....

[Vajrasattva]

If i had Millions of $ I would buy each of my Gurus homes for them & their families & give them everything. Cause the TRUTH is With out them I would not be where I am.

 

They have brought me all to my real Paramaguru. And that is priceless.

 

Santiago Dobles

[dao zhen]

[gossamer]

Sorry if I "shouted", I was merely trying to make a point.

 

And Peace be upon you all, but I think that all three of you are *wrong*.

 

Dao Zhen, so let me get this straight from you.

 

You are comfortable with a teacher *SELLING* his or her lineage to you??

 

Is this what you are saying?

 

If the teacher says "I'll sell you my teachings, and make you a Daoist, for $312.00".

 

Your absolutely comfortable with that, morally??

 

That surprises me about you, if your answer is "Yes".

 

And if your answer is "Yes", what of those who DON'T have the $312.00, but are deeply devoted to Dao, perhaps more so then some of those who CAN afford to pay $312.00?

 

What about them?

 

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited December 20, 2008 by gossamer

[WhiteTiger]

Most of my teachers in China charged some fee for the first trainings, and then after that we were family, and there was never any money exchanged - though the relationship changed, and I had to pay in practice, or helping them with projects, or tasks, etc.

 

This is normally the way it should be done. I mean Fees are payed for initial trainings, to teach basics until one can show proper ability and commitment to the practice then one pays through practice or other tasks.

 

I personally would like to learn face to face with a teacher, what do you think the benefits are from learning face to face Dao Zhen?

 

And if your answer is "Yes", what of those who DON'T have the $312.00, but are deeply devoted to Dao, perhaps more so then some of those who CAN afford to pay $312.00?

 

What about them?

 

This brings up a very interesting question that I have been thinking about for a more then 2 weeks. The last few people I've manifested for them to teach me things, they have given me it for free but in return i realize i give them support with adding energy. (kinda how manifesting works) Their was absolutely no money exchange in return.

 

Has anyone looked at Spirit Rock website?

http://www.spiritrock.org/

 

I was amazed and was thinking why exactly they offer their services for free, and at the end depending how much benefit you get out of it, you give them money for what you learn. This idea, just made me think of exactly the karmic way things work. Idk its all interesting things I've been thinking about it a lot lately.

 

I don't expect anything to be free, and many times i'm willing to pay money. I definately don't have a problem with that. I'm not trying to force a deal to change or anything. Just something I've been contemplating. I do the family and helping out people very well but giving out big amounts of money i never really did very well at.

 

I think that has to do a little with the fact that their was a time when I could exercised and it was fun, I could do it for hours every day without it feeling like it was to hard. Without the feeling of over exertion. Now when i work I'm always feeling like its over exertion and i guess that means i gotta figure out how to get back to that feeling of fun without over exertion.

Edited December 20, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Ya Mu]

Sorry if I "shouted", I was merely trying to make a point.

 

And Peace be upon you all, but I think that all three of you are *wrong*.

 

 

Hey, I don't mind if you shout SOME words. I think it helps to emphasize the part you are really talking about.

 

But I would like to try to give you a slightly different perspective to think about.

 

OK, do you work at a job? Most who do had to have training for that particular job. And, mostly, the renumeration one receives (at least that is the theory) for that particulat job is proportional to the amount of training one receives (yeah, yeah, I know this isn't always the case, but I am speaking about typical western ways).

 

Now, did you have to pay out for that training? How much was your college education? $100,000 or so? How much did any particular technical program cost you?

 

SO, do you go to that job you now have and work free? Or do you expect renumeration that reflects the fact that you yourself paid out big bucks to learn your skill? What if I sat here and told you that was morally wrong for you to make so much money and that you should work for only room and board. After all, there are plenty of folks out there who have no money at all. So, are you being immoral?

 

The only example I can give, as far as a teacher goes, is my own. Besides that $100,000+ basic education, which significantly helps in my being a teacher, I have another (I-just-don't want-to-add-it-up-because-it-is-so-much-I-may-have-a-heart-attack-if-I-do) invested in my Taoist medicine and medical qigong training. Suffice to say I mortgaged two houses to the hilt and ended up having to sell them in order to pay my training costs. And before you say but you are talking about medical qigong and not spiritual training let me assure you that this training is the ESSENCE of spiritual training.

 

So, I am a teacher and a healer. I guess you are going to insist that I am not moral by charging a fee for my training students? Not moral for charging a fee for my healing? If you really think that, why don't you correct the situation and make me a moral person by setting me up with a trust fund so I can do this for free.

[dao zhen]

Sorry if I "shouted", I was merely trying to make a point.

 

You are comfortable with a teacher *SELLING* his or her lineage to you??

 

Is this what you are saying?

 

If the teacher says "I'll sell you my teachings, and make you a Daoist, for $312.00".

 

And if your answer is "Yes", what of those who DON'T have the $312.00, but are deeply devoted to Dao, perhaps more so then some of those who CAN afford to pay $312.00?

 

What about them?

Peace, gossamer

 

Dao will provide........

 

Dao does provide.........

 

But sometimes we are too blind and full of ego to see.....

 

I said, "Today, there are not many systems to support spiritual teachers, and they also have to pay for rent, and food. Most of my teachers in China charged some fee for the first trainings, and then after that we were family, and there was never any money exchanged - though the relationship changed, and I had to pay in practice, or helping them with projects, or tasks, etc."

 

It is a modern way of showing respect, and a giving heart, and also a humility and sincerity.

 

Of course it should not be abused."

 

No teacher can make one a Taoist.

 

A Taoist is made through self cultivation.

 

A Taoist is one who follows the Way of the Great Natural Law.

 

A Taoist does not need a piece of paper or license.

 

They have the same system in China today.

 

I can pay money and get an official "Taoist Lineage" passport plastic thing with my photo in it, and be registered with the Chinese government, etc.....

 

I am not, and I refuse to get such a registration.

 

I know of some Americans who teach and call themselves Taoists and have come for a few weeks, paid money and obtained such registration.

 

I know one person who runs some tours to China, and all members of the tour can come home with such plastic "Taoist" passports and be "official".

 

I feel this is very wrong, and goes against the Way of Taoism.

 

I am saying that if you are taking regular lessons with a master, or if a master is sponsoring a special training or workshop with you, it is proper to pay.

 

There are costs and expenses the teacher will suffer for his efforts in teaching, and if possible, the student should show sincere thanks, and pay some tuition.

 

The real thanks for the teachings should come from the student working hard to practice the method taught, and if possible master it.

 

Now.......

 

If there are some sincere student who can not afford the workshop, or class then something should be made available to allow them to learn.

 

This is all in the public realm.

 

Traditional disciple relationships should never really involve payment and money.

 

In such a relationship it is more like father/mother and son/daughter.

 

My teacher often paid for meals, hotels, and other costs when we studied together; and even helped me to set up my business and taught me much about herb export and other things related to earning money to make sure the material realm was taken care of.

 

Yet I had many other responsability and work I had to do for him.

 

I ran a small academy for Taoist Yoga.....

 

We had students come from time to time who wished to study, but honestly said they could not afford payment of the class fees - we have costs such as rent for the space, and other costs to run the public school -

 

We allowed them to come for free.

 

I have run public workshops in China.

 

Almost every workshop, there is a person (sometimes more than one) who can not attend due to the costs of the workshop, yet they wish to attend - we always try our best to work something out with them to allow them to come - though we can not afford to pay their hotel, food and transportation costs.

 

In this way, I feel I am being honest, and trying my best to not let anyone miss out on something we are involved in due to money.

 

We live in a material society, and it is a fact of this current age we are in.

 

There is no public support of spiritual study or projects.

 

I have a dream to house a retreat project for serious alchemy students in China.

 

Or at the very least have myself and a fellow disciple go off and do long term practice and exploration in alchemy.

 

Why are we not doing it right now?

 

Money.......

 

It is something we have to face and deal with in these times.....

 

And most people teaching in the public are also bound by the reality of money.....

 

But, there should be no abuse.

 

Everything should be within a normal standard; within reason.

[gossamer]

Dear Ya Mu,

 

 

You said:

 

 

"SO, do you go to that job you now have and work free? Or do you expect renumeration that reflects the fact that you yourself paid out big bucks to learn your skill? What if I sat here and told you that was morally wrong for you to make so much money and that you should work for only room and board. After all, there are plenty of folks out there who have no money at all. So, are you being immoral?

 

The only example I can give, as far as a teacher goes, is my own. Besides that $100,000+ basic education, which significantly helps in my being a teacher, I have another (I-just-don't want-to-add-it-up-because-it-is-so-much-I-may-have-a-heart-attack-if-I-do) invested in my Taoist medicine and medical qigong training. Suffice to say I mortgaged two houses to the hilt and ended up having to sell them in order to pay my training costs. And before you say but you are talking about medical qigong and not spiritual training let me assure you that this training is the ESSENCE of spiritual training.

 

So, I am a teacher and a healer. I guess you are going to insist that I am not moral by charging a fee for my training students? Not moral for charging a fee for my healing? If you really think that, why don't you correct the situation and make me a moral person by setting me up with a trust fund so I can do this for free."

 

 

 

 

I used to drive trucks and buses for a living. I am now disabled, and live on around $600.00 per month, Social Security Disability.

 

My wife works, or we'd be in BIG TROUBLE financially.

 

I graduated from high school, and had a small amount of college, I'm 57 years old.

 

Now on to answering your questions.

 

I was recently offered a lineage of Daoism for the amount of money that I mentioned in my last post.

 

No, I think that charging for Daoist medicine, is just like charging for Western medicine, and I'm good with that.

 

And with study materials, books and other course materials, yes, I totally understand that.

 

I'm strictly saying to offer a lineage for sale (yeah I'm gonna use big letters again, so get over it), is WRONG, both spiritually and morally.

 

That's it, that's all I'm saying.

 

You know, Laozi did not say exactly what Jesus said: "Freely you were given, now freely give".

 

But Dao is very deep, and I think that probably 90% of it can be learned directly from nature.

 

But I have a *spiritual* problem with ANY "Master" who would sell his or her lineage.

 

And not just because I'm poor do I feel this. This is wrong spiritually.

 

It would gag Laozi to see his present "disciples", and because the world has a trend, do we who follow Dao, become like the world?

 

It's currently fashionable for many nations to have nuclear "weapons", but is it morally or spiritually correct, to do so???

 

You already know the answer to this question.

 

I really wanna encourage you to READ this book:

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Heaven-Encounte...9008&sr=1-2

 

 

Maybe this great Zen Buddhist & Daoist, can make clear, what I cannot.

 

The greatest followers of Dao in this book, were very simple hermits who lived high up in the Chungnan Mts. far away from people and (so-called) "civilization".

 

These people were dirt poor, and lived on very, very little.

 

I finally understand why Laozi said that being frugal was one of his great treasures.

 

This might in fact, nearly equate with the "freely you were given, now freely give" message.

It's exactly the SAME message clothed in different words.

 

Thank you for this insight, into Laozi's teachings.

 

I've pondered that saying for a long while, and I finally understand it now!

 

Peace, gossamer

Edited December 20, 2008 by gossamer

[Ya Mu]

Dear Ya Mu,

 

 

You said:

"SO, do you go to that job you now have and work free? Or do you expect renumeration that reflects the fact that you yourself paid out big bucks to learn your skill? What if I sat here and told you that was morally wrong for you to make so much money and that you should work for only room and board. After all, there are plenty of folks out there who have no money at all. So, are you being immoral?

 

The only example I can give, as far as a teacher goes, is my own. Besides that $100,000+ basic education, which significantly helps in my being a teacher, I have another (I-just-don't want-to-add-it-up-because-it-is-so-much-I-may-have-a-heart-attack-if-I-do) invested in my Taoist medicine and medical qigong training. Suffice to say I mortgaged two houses to the hilt and ended up having to sell them in order to pay my training costs. And before you say but you are talking about medical qigong and not spiritual training let me assure you that this training is the ESSENCE of spiritual training.

 

So, I am a teacher and a healer. I guess you are going to insist that I am not moral by charging a fee for my training students? Not moral for charging a fee for my healing? If you really think that, why don't you correct the situation and make me a moral person by setting me up with a trust fund so I can do this for free."

I used to drive trucks and buses for a living. I am now disabled, and live on around $600.00 per month, Social Security Disability.

 

My wife works, or we'd be in BIG TROUBLE financially.

 

I graduated from high school, and had a small amount of college, I'm 57 years old.

 

Now on to answering your questions.

 

I was recently offered a lineage of Daoism for the amount of money that I mentioned in my last post.

 

No, I think that charging for Daoist medicine, is just like charging for Western medicine, and I'm good with that.

 

And with study materials, books and other course materials, yes, I totally understand that.

 

I'm strictly saying to offer a lineage for sale (yeah I'm gonna use big letters again, so get over it), is WRONG, both spiritually and morally.

 

That's it, that's all I'm saying.

 

You know, Laozi did not say exactly what Jesus said: "Freely you were given, now freely give".

 

But Dao is very deep, and I think that probably 90% of it can be learned directly from nature.

 

But I have a *spiritual* problem with ANY "Master" who would sell his or her lineage.

 

And not just because I'm poor do I feel this. This is wrong spiritually.

 

It would gag Laozi to see his present "disciples", and because the world has a trend, do we who follow Dao, become like the world?

 

It's currently fashionable for many nations to have nuclear "weapons", but is it morally or spiritually correct, to do so???

 

You already know the answer to this question.

 

I really wanna encourage you to READ this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Heaven-Encounte...9008&sr=1-2

Maybe this great Zen Buddhist & Daoist, can make clear, what I cannot.

 

The greatest followers of Dao in this book, were very simple hermits who lived high up in the Chungnan Mts. far away from people and (so-called) "civilization".

 

These people were dirt poor, and lived on very, very little.

 

I finally understand why Laozi said that being frugal was one of his great treasures.

 

This might in fact, nearly equate with the "freely you were given, now freely give" message.

It's exactly the SAME message clothed in different words.

 

Thank you for this insight, into Laozi's teachings.

 

I've pondered that saying for a long while now, but I finally understand it!

 

Peace, gossamer

 

Hey, I said I LIKE to use big letters too!

I do surely understand your point. But you should equally understand mine. Both my teaching and my practice have come close to breaking even many years. NOT a money maker. I could get a job in a different field that would make a LOT more money. Or I could treat only wealthy people in clinic and double my class fees and make a lot more money. But I know that the teachings I have to offer are MUCH NEEDED. I also know the therapy I do eliminates much suffering. I believe that you are so correct about much of what you have said. But if I didn't charge for my classes I would be unable to continue. I am sure I am not the only teacher in this position. And I, like a good many other teachers that charge, do make adjustments for folks with no money.

One more question. Have you described your circumstances to the teacher you are referring to and asked for a fee adjustment?

 

Thanks for the book link. I believe we already have that one. If you want to read my book send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a complimentary copy.

[gossamer]

Dear Ya Mu,

 

 

I can feel your vibes and your sincerity.

 

I'm not criticizing your position, honestly.

 

I understand.

 

I *truly* understand.

 

So, I'll ask you this. (Different subject).

 

Laozi and the purple cloud, and it's relationship to the purple bubble, I already know the answer.

 

Laozi is worshipped by the Religious Daoist's.

 

So, in your opinion, Laozi is teaching (from the Other Side), and he's the greatest of the Immortals??

 

Does this make (or equate) him to "a god"?

 

That's a pretty loaded question here in the West, as you know.

 

I prefer to think of him kind of more like Yoda, or Obi Wan Kenobi, "dead", but yet ever ALIVE!

 

I understand your feelings about charging for classes.

 

I know you don't know me, and I'm not bragging, but I've been a kind of empath for a long time.

 

As Princess Laia said: "I can FEEL IT".

 

Thanks for the book offer.....most kind. (deep bow)

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, I said I LIKE to use big letters too!

I do surely understand your point. But you should equally understand mine. Both my teaching and my practice have come close to breaking even many years. NOT a money maker. I could get a job in a different field that would make a LOT more money. Or I could treat only wealthy people in clinic and double my class fees and make a lot more money. But I know that the teachings I have to offer are MUCH NEEDED. I also know the therapy I do eliminates much suffering. I believe that you are so correct about much of what you have said. But if I didn't charge for my classes I would be unable to continue. I am sure I am not the only teacher in this position. And I, like a good many other teachers that charge, do make adjustments for folks with no money.

One more question. Have you described your circumstances to the teacher you are referring to and asked for a fee adjustment?

 

Thanks for the book link. I believe we already have that one. If you want to read my book send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a complimentary copy.

Edited December 20, 2008 by gossamer

[fiveelementtao]

Having a problem with a specific thing like "paying to be a Daoist" is a valid point of discussion, but paying a teacher for his/her time is very valid.

If you don't want the service that someone is offering, don't take it. You are free to take it or not. In terms of being a daoist, if you are comfortable calling yourself a daoist, then you don't need to be initiated by someone else... So really this argument isn't about money, it's about whether you need someone else to declare you a Daoist...

Edited December 20, 2008 by fiveelementtao

[gossamer]

Dear FET,

 

You know, if that's what you got from my posts, you need to read them again.

 

For a "Master" to sell a lineage is wrong, no matter HOW you slice it!

 

I only make slightly below $600.00 per month.

 

Where is $312.00 gonna come from, out of THAT?

 

Go figure (literally).

 

Peace, gossamer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having a problem with a specific thing like "paying to be a Daoist" is a valid point of discussion, but paying a teacher for his/her time is very valid. I don't think it is appropriate to make a generalized judgement about all teachers getting payed based on one service that someone offers that you disagree with.

If Nature herself is able to teach you all you need, then great! But someday you may want to learn something specific from someone that may take alot of their time and effort. In that case, it is appropriate to compensate that person for their time in teaching you...

If I were going to learn from someone and chose to be initiated by that person, I think $300 is a reasonable donation. After all, if I were planning on becoming initiated, I would want my teacher to have a place to teach me. I would also want that teacher to be able to support him/herself etc. My $300 would be my contribution to the temple etc...

If you don't want the service that someone is offering, don't take it. You are free to take it or not. In terms of being a daoist, if you are comfortable calling yourself a daoist, then you don't need to be initiated by someone else... So really this argument isn't about money, it's about whether you need someone else to declare you a Daoist...

[Ya Mu]

 

So, I'll ask you this. (Different subject).

 

Laozi and the purple cloud, and it's relationship to the purple bubble, I already know the answer.

 

Laozi is worshipped by the Religious Daoist's.

 

So, in your opinion, Laozi is teaching (from the Other Side), and he's the greatest of the Immortals??

 

Does this make (or equate) him to "a god"?

 

That's a pretty loaded question here in the West, as you know.

 

I prefer to think of him kind of more like Yoda, or Obi Wan Kenobi, "dead", but yet ever ALIVE!

 

Well, it probably is very loaded on this forum (HA), but I'll give you my opinion based on my own experiences.

I know this is a "Taoist" board, so I may fry for this response.

 

I practice the essence of Taoism and teach a very rare form of Taoist Medicine. I also practice the essence of all things that contain truth. I know many folks think Taoism is such a pure thing. Others think that Buddhism is such a pure thing. The truth is, these are so very intertwined in the teachings from China. An example; one of my teacher's teacher was an Abbot of one of the 4 holy Buddhist mountains who also was a master of Taoist medicine.

 

Same as the teachings of the Native Americans. I laughed heartily when a Medicine Man showed me one of the exercises that the elder Shaman's did after they did one of their energy healings. It was a qigong exercise. From the viewpoint of true Spirituality it is a small world indeed.

 

Although all these viewpoints still have the separate teachings, in many ways their truths are intertwined. So, to me, truth is truth and I really don't give a hoot where it comes from. Doesn't bother me a bit if that truth is from Christianity, insight from talking to an athiest, from Zorastor's teachings, or any where in all the many worlds.

 

What I have SEEN is that the advanced Beings of Light can appear to anyone as anything they wish but usually in the form of one of their incarnations on earth that you, as the person experiencing this RESONATES with. So, if they are trying to help you and you are a Christian, chances are you will see Mother Mary. If you are a Taoist, guess what? If you have gone beyond any type of belief you will usually see them as luminous beings.

 

The greatest of all the Immortals? I hear him laughing now. Think about it and you will laugh too!

[gossamer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it probably is very loaded on this forum (HA), but I'll give you my opinion based on my own experiences.

I know this is a "Taoist" board, so I may fry for this response.

 

I practice the essence of Taoism and teach a very rare form of Taoist Medicine. I also practice the essence of all things that contain truth. I know many folks think Taoism is such a pure thing. Others think that Buddhism is such a pure thing. The truth is, these are so very intertwined in the teachings from China. An example; one of my teacher's teacher was an Abbot of one of the 4 holy Buddhist mountains who also was a master of Taoist medicine.

 

Same as the teachings of the Native Americans. I laughed heartily when a Medicine Man showed me one of the exercises that the elder Shaman's did after they did one of their energy healings. It was a qigong exercise. From the viewpoint of true Spirituality it is a small world indeed.

 

Although all these viewpoints still have the separate teachings, in many ways their truths are intertwined. So, to me, truth is truth and I really don't give a hoot where it comes from. Doesn't bother me a bit if that truth is from Christianity, insight from talking to an athiest, from Zorastor's teachings, or any where in all the many worlds.

 

What I have SEEN is that the advanced Beings of Light can appear to anyone as anything they wish but usually in the form of one of their incarnations on earth that you, as the person experiencing this RESONATES with. So, if they are trying to help you and you are a Christian, chances are you will see Mother Mary. If you are a Taoist, guess what? If you have gone beyond any type of belief you will usually see them as luminous beings.

 

The greatest of all the Immortals? I hear him laughing now. Think about it and you will laugh too!

[idquest]

 

what of those who DON'T have the $312.00, but are deeply devoted to Dao, perhaps more so then some of those who CAN afford to pay $312.00?

 

What about them?

Peace, gossamer

 

Let's don't confuse a lack of money with priorities we set. When you say I don't have money it actually means that you regard something more important than your study of dao to spend the money for. Even a high school student would have their $20 pocket money they can spend on a weekly class. Think of priorities as most people sincerely think they don't have money.

[fiveelementtao]

Dear FET,

 

You know, if that's what you got from my posts, you need to read them again.

 

For a "Master" to sell a lineage is wrong, no matter HOW you slice it!

 

I only make slightly below $600.00 per month.

 

Where is $312.00 gonna come from, out of THAT?

 

Go figure (literally).

 

Peace, gossamer

 

I'm trying understand your point. The point I was trying to make is, is this about money? or is it about the morality of charging a donation to receive a lineage transmission? These are two different issues. If it's immoral to charge for a lineage, then it doesn't matter how much or how little. From what I've read, it sounds like you don't think it is morally OK to charge for lineage transmission. But It also sounds like you want to receive this but can't afford it....So, if this is something you wouldn't want anyway, why care if he charges or how much? But if this is something that you want, why then are you angry?... because it is cost prohibitive? You see my confusion?

If you could easily afford the $312.00 would you be angry still? If the donation for lineage was $10.00 would you still be angry?

This is my point. Is this about money or morality?

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Of course selling a lineage is WRONG!

 

But being into a lineage, doing a "donation" to the temple to show support and respect for the school is really something a student who are willing to learn is very reasonable.

 

THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCH in the world. I do not see you can go to school FREE and get your education right? SO you pay for what you get.

 

The master is not SELLING a lineage in your issue, he is just requesting the student to make a "donation" to build a linkage between you and the lineage. This is call linkage fee which is "GIT YUEN"fee in chinese. To show respect, one must do a donation to the temple at least when they enter a lineage. If not, I do not see there is a need to accept the student. Because the student do not show respect anyway. They just want free lunch and fool around, which is yelling because they think they are poor and not want to spend anything on whatever they want. Waste of time.

 

Red pockets are always used in the Chinese culture, in temples, people donate with red pockets to show great respect for the temple, the master or even the altar. It is part of the tradition and also in taoism learnings.

 

So how does a master "SELL" his lineage by requesting the student to do a donation that is not $100,000? It is not costing you $1million or something, it is just a small amount for the whole life learning, I can just say the master is too generous and nice. Who can give you a life time learning for such a small fee?

 

Do you treat your master like a "free teacher" when you learn something else?

 

Sorry to hear that you are disabled, but you do have the choice to choosing to learn or not. This doesn't mean that you are disabled and should be specially treated by the master for free-teaching. :Right? Everybody is equal and learn the same way.

 

Try asking Wu Dang mountain to accept you free as their student, guess what kind of respond will you get?

 

 

 

Mak Tin Si

[Dean]

I don't believe it's bad to have to pay a fee to learn something. How is the teacher suppose to provide for themselves? If it is an exorbitant fee that would be different.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Of course. If not, how can the teacher run the school? How can they teach more people?

 

I suggest lets look at those so called "charity", like WWF and stuff, they have TONS of money from the donations that are used for paying their workers and admin people, also advertiising, promotion, etc,. What do you think about that ? Where is all those money that made them grow? if they do not grow big, how can they help more people? How can people know about them? It is a cycle.

 

To be understanding is important. We must understand the reason before we comment. I used to look down on the charities before for taking so much from the donations you made to the admin. But on the other side, that is how they can get people to work for the charity and keep it running. Why don't we understand them and their system before commenting?

 

Exorbitant fee really depends on how you feel about the importance of one thing. If you say $100 is too much for a life time learning, I really think you cannot even shop in the supermarket for food. But if you think $100,000 is too much, that is reasonable complain.

 

 

 

I don't believe it's bad to have to pay a fee to learn something. How is the teacher suppose to provide for themselves? If it is an exorbitant fee that would be different.

[gossamer]

In my *opinion* when one makes less then $600.00 per month, to spend $312.00 for "a donation" (Gee, I've heard THAT ONE before in Christianity), IS EXORBITANT.

 

This is something that is paid up front, from what I understand.

 

On the other hand, to pay $300.00 out over several YEARS, sounds very reasonable to me.

 

Especially considering if this is for books, and study materials.

 

Look, if someone else wants to PAY for what amounts to initiation, go ahead.

 

Personally, I feel that that's wrong.

 

It may not be wrong for YOU, it's only wrong for ME.

 

I felt that it was wrong in the Western Magical Tradition, and I feel that it's wrong to SELL the WAY.

 

The Great Dao, is NOT for sale at ANY PRICE!

 

If that doesn't work for you, that's kool.

 

 

Peace upon you all, gossamer

 

 

P.S

 

I'm NOT "mad".

 

I think paying for a transmission of a lineage is WRONG.

 

I would STILL think this, if I made $.600.00 A WEEK.

 

This is NOT ABOUT MONEY, it's about "frugality", as Laozi said.

 

Do you HONESTLY think that Laozi charged the Gatekeeper for his DDJ (TTC) 'transmission'?????

 

Really, do you think THAT?

Edited December 21, 2008 by gossamer

[dao zhen]

I by chance heard about my teachers Internal Alchemy teachings.

 

I wanted to learn.

 

I wrote many letters to request study.

 

I was refused many, many times.

 

I wrote many more letters.

 

I finally was invited to study in the mountains for 25 day period, and receive the teachings.

 

The teaching fee to take part in this private training seemed very high to me.

 

But I wanted to go, so I found a way to put the funds I had together to pay this requested fee.

 

I had to eat very little foods, and stay in a bad hotel to wait for the date set for our training in China.

 

When we met, and I gave him the tuition fee in an envelope with my feeling of respect he said this:

 

"It is very important for the student to pay."

 

"This is a lot of money."

 

"I am sorry for this. This money will be used for the following projects in our work....."

 

"You will never need to pay any fee again in our study."

 

What I learned and was taught was priceless - and can not compare to money.

 

I think the payment is a form of lesson for the student.

 

To have the student develop a heart of wishing to give something to the teacher - this creates a bond.

 

Just my ideas on this subject......

 

Of course selling a lineage is WRONG!

 

But being into a lineage, doing a "donation" to the temple to show support and respect for the school is really something a student who are willing to learn is very reasonable.

 

THERE ARE NO FREE LUNCH in the world. I do not see you can go to school FREE and get your education right? SO you pay for what you get.

 

The master is not SELLING a lineage in your issue, he is just requesting the student to make a "donation" to build a linkage between you and the lineage. This is call linkage fee which is "GIT YUEN"fee in chinese. To show respect, one must do a donation to the temple at least when they enter a lineage. If not, I do not see there is a need to accept the student. Because the student do not show respect anyway. They just want free lunch and fool around, which is yelling because they think they are poor and not want to spend anything on whatever they want. Waste of time.

 

Mak Tin Si

[Anabhogya-Carya]

I by chance heard about my teachers Internal Alchemy teachings.

 

I wanted to learn.

 

I wrote many letters to request study.

 

I was refused many, many times.

 

I wrote many more letters.

 

I finally was invited to study in the mountains for 25 day period, and receive the teachings.

 

The teaching fee to take part in this private training seemed very high to me.

 

But I wanted to go, so I found a way to put the funds I had together to pay this requested fee.

 

I had to eat very little foods, and stay in a bad hotel to wait for the date set for our training in China.

 

When we met, and I gave him the tuition fee in an envelope with my feeling of respect he said this:

 

"It is very important for the student to pay."

 

"This is a lot of money."

 

"I am sorry for this. This money will be used for the following projects in our work....."

 

"You will never need to pay any fee again in our study."

 

What I learned and was taught was priceless - and can not compare to money.

 

I think the payment is a form of lesson for the student.

 

To have the student develop a heart of wishing to give something to the teacher - this creates a bond.

 

Just my ideas on this subject......

 

 

I have my own ideas about money and spirituality.

But I very much liked your anecdote. You make a interesting point.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Paying for $300 a transmission? You mean those in China nowadays in Long Fu Shan? They do charge a fee of $300 USD just to bring you the first transmission and you still need to pay and fly back to China though.

 

In my lineage, I do charge a small fee of donations of 90$cdn only. I do think this is very reasonable to all the people who want to learn. If the student expect free lunch, I have no idea why they are going to get this treasurable knowledge with love from your master - me. The master have to teach you the knowledge, the way to train, guidiance of life, help you to solve obstacles in life, give you advice and look after you all the time, is that something you must pay for at least to show your master some respect?

 

If you say money do not equals respect, but yet if your master require you to do a donation and you refuse for just this little reason, that is not respectful to the master already. You can kindly say, I canont make it and then the master will give you some other options maybe. But by searching for the Tao in this attitude will lead you to nothing, I mean nothing for your life.

 

You may think the taoism is just DDJ or maybe something very general, but in my lineage, Taoism is far beyong you can imagine and think. It's just like how the west first look at dim sum and say.. yuk! what is that! But now they all love it. Because they finally tasted it and find it delicious. Before, they only have The Woks and something like CHap Shui food, they considered to be garbage food by the Chinese really. But you think that is Chinese food already. How naive?

 

Are you question a CHINESE OFFICAL MASTER for the lineage and teachers with your WESTERNER KNOWLEDGE about CHINESE ART? You must be an expert. But you are not. Just lots to learn...!

 

 

Mak Tin Si

[Dean]

 

 

The Great Dao, is NOT for sale at ANY PRICE!

 

 

gossamer, there are some out there that do make a living off supposedly selling the Dao/ Tao. They do charge a lot and require you to buy their CD's, books and to attend seminars. Afterwords they leave you to your own and do not provide input on the methods practiced. I can think of several supposed Daoist teachers that do this. I feel that this is wrong and the students can make many mistakes along the way, even harming their own health. This is wrong, IMO, and the teachers like this are irresponsible.

 

On the subject of the DDJ, I'd agree with, Mak_Tin_Si, Daoism is more than just a book. It doesn't matter how many books you own, without a good teacher how can you expect to learn the way.

 

I also stick to my assertion that some amount of money is necessary to provide for the teachers needs. The mystical idea of no need for any money is absurd in my opinion. Teachers are human to. They need clothes, shelter, food and etc.. The ideal of a master living off heavenly dew and air only is a common one, but I have, yet to meet a teacher that can do this.