Wudang Taoism

[dao zhen]

[Mak_Tin_Si]

Great post DaoZhen. I enjoyed your post here which clears out to the public here about the real taoism in wudang. Very nicely posted!

 

All the best to you and your lineage,

 

Fuk Sung Mo Leung Tin Juen

 

Mak Tin Si

 

It has been quoted here by a few members that Wudang Taoists eat meat.

 

I.......................e Pure Green Grand Master.

 

For Photographs and Info on Wudang Visit Here

[exorcist_1699]

To: Dao Zhen

 

I love those pictures from the link.

 

Besides classifying the Taoist sects / schools according to the place ( mainly Mountain ) it originates, I think another way of naming/classification is by the method a school adopts ; for sample whether it advocates Dual cultivation ( South School) or Single Cultivation ( North school includes QuanZhan ) ; or by where we concentrate our mind to start/ proceed : for example, the West school requests learners to shift their mind to emptiness outside the body at certain stage of cultivation... while Nothingness sect. may ask people to start from nothingness right at the beginning . And, the San Feng Sect, its method seems commonly adopted by people , just ask people to concentrate their mind slightly at dantian of the lower abdomen.

Edited December 22, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[erdweir]

Do you know anything about the Wudang Deutschland school here in Berlin? Or Ismet Himmet, the main teacher there? supposedly he trained on Wudang for years. I was thinking about going in for some lessons there...

[Ryan T.]

 

I live here in Wudang, and have been coming to this mountain for about 5 years now.

 

I am not an expert, but feel I need to share what little I have gathered and observed.

 

Thank you for your insightful post and I definitely appreciate your perspective based on your experiences.

 

But I tend to question most anything coming out of post-cultural revolution China.

 

Is anything that was before the Communist takeover still in any intact form? I look at the Tibet situation. When the Dalai Lama dies the Chinese government are sure to announce that they have "found" the next Dalai Lama. This person will, of course, be a pawn of the government to be used to further control and/or destroy the Tibetan culture.

 

Should we not consider the same possibility with most things Taoist? Now granted I have not read these texts personally as I do not read Chinese but I have many friends who are either TCMPs, martial artists or Qigong practitioners, all who have been studying for over 30 years, who say the ancient texts all talk about avoiding grains and meat being fine. How the ancients(Taoists) were always wary of agriculture as it took people away from nature.

 

At least this is what I have been told by people who I trust with my training as well as my health.

[erdweir]

I live here in Wudang, and have been coming to this mountain for about 5 years now.

 

Dao Zhen, how is it there? I have been thinking about making the trip lately. have you lived at any of these monasteries? Are you practicing any particular sects meditations? If so, why did you settle on that one over the others? Who is your teacher, if you dont mind me asking? Can you give some account of the differences between the sects? How expensive is it to go on a retreat there? Have you been to any other areas in china that offer internal alchemy training? Like Mt. Huashan?

 

Sorry for the flood of questions, but I would appreciate hearing about your experience more. I feel like I have to go make the plunge sometime in the next year, but dont know where to go exactly. I got into this stuff from Mantak Chia's books, like allot of other people, but I don't really trust something about the healing tao system and organization. maybe it's the weird stem cell machines on his website, or the 24 year old woman he just knocked up, or the prominent published student who lost his mind, the flakey teachers i have met, etc. So I have been poking around on the web looking for retreats but most of the Wudang websites I have found are martial arts oriented, and I am more interested in the internal alchemy.

 

Thanks. I have enjoyed reading your posts.

Edited May 11, 2009 by erdweir

[Stigweard]

Cheers for this dao zhen

[YMWong]

Daozhen,

 

most Daoists in China now are vegetarian only because the Government sort of placed Quanzhen Daoism above all other schools, when Daoism was resurrected with China's opening in the late 70ies (early 80ies).

Actually only a minor part of Daoists, traditionally, are strictly vegetarian while most of them eat *everything* thou according to some rules ~ so for instance they are vegetarian in certain period of the year or following certain specific practices.

 

Daoism in Wudang follow the national trend so of course the monastic order Quanzhen, together with its derivatives and mainly the Lungmen sect, are the most popular nowadays.

 

When China opened its doors the Government decided to categorize all daoist schools under two orders: Quanzhen and Zhengyi ~ so in fact most of the daoists were made to 'follow' rules and regulation they did not belong to.

Moreover, the Central Government realized that Quanzhen - being monastic and 'quiet' in nature - would be easier to handle so priority was given to Quanzhen and derivatives.

Those who did not agree with the policy have been practicing in private ever since, so you won't find them at any temple, daoist 'meetings' etc. All others have accepted the policy so most of them had to "re-organize" their Daoist life in accordance to the new regulations. I am not saying here this is necessarily a bad or negative thing, of course, as historically speaking studying with various masters under different schools in one's daoist life was the norm. The difference, however, is that this time it was not a real personal choice

 

YM

[erdweir]

Daozhen,

 

most Daoists in China now are vegetarian only because the Government sort of placed Quanzhen Daoism above all other schools, when Daoism was resurrected with China's opening in the late 70ies (early 80ies).

Actually only a minor part of Daoists, traditionally, are strictly vegetarian while most of them eat *everything* thou according to some rules ~ so for instance they are vegetarian in certain period of the year or following certain specific practices.

 

Daoism in Wudang follow the national trend so of course the monastic order Quanzhen, together with its derivatives and mainly the Lungmen sect, are the most popular nowadays.

 

When China opened its doors the Government decided to categorize all daoist schools under two orders: Quanzhen and Zhengyi ~ so in fact most of the daoists were made to 'follow' rules and regulation they did not belong to.

Moreover, the Central Government realized that Quanzhen - being monastic and 'quiet' in nature - would be easier to handle so priority was given to Quanzhen and derivatives.

Those who did not agree with the policy have been practicing in private ever since, so you won't find them at any temple, daoist 'meetings' etc. All others have accepted the policy so most of them had to "re-organize" their Daoist life in accordance to the new regulations. I am not saying here this is necessarily a bad or negative thing, of course, as historically speaking studying with various masters under different schools in one's daoist life was the norm. The difference, however, is that this time it was not a real personal choice

 

YM

 

YMWong, how would you describe the difference between the Quanzhen Daoists and those practicing in private? What is it that the private ones are doing that the government doesn't approve of? Of course there is the meat eating being discussed here but then meat isn't illegal in China. I have read that they don't approve of Shen practices or sexual cultivation. I am more skeptical about the Shen reports, because I can find descriptions of mentioning Shen on websites based in China. On the other hand no websites I have seen for internal alchemy in China describe sexual cultivation. Is there something about this China considers hard to handle or is it something else? You mention quiet, but what are you contrasting it to? Also, I was under the impression (perhaps false) that the Dragon Gate sect was the most widespread. Would you dispute this or would you classify this as a derivative of the Quanzhen sect? Thank you.

[WhiteTiger]

YMWong, how would you describe the difference between the Quanzhen Daoists and those practicing in private? What is it that the private ones are doing that the government doesn't approve of? Of course there is the meat eating being discussed here but then meat isn't illegal in China. I have read that they don't approve of Shen practices or sexual cultivation. I am more skeptical about the Shen reports, because I can find descriptions of mentioning Shen on websites based in China. On the other hand no websites I have seen for internal alchemy in China describe sexual cultivation. Is there something about this China considers hard to handle or is it something else? You mention quiet, but what are you contrasting it to? Also, I was under the impression (perhaps false) that the Dragon Gate sect was the most widespread. Would you dispute this or would you classify this as a derivative of the Quanzhen sect? Thank you.

 

I've heard many different referances to Quanzhen school... many misunderstandings... many people claiming this and that.

 

Through everything I've heard this is what it seems to be presented to me... a simple subject that words are tossed around and many misinterpretations happened. This is just my understanding...

 

If I understand it correctly, I was told... Longmen Pai is a closed door sect. This closed door sect is called "Longmen Pai of Complete Perfection". The open door subsect of Longmen Pai is called The Dragon Gate Sect of Complete Reality. Dragon Gate Sect of Complete Reality is the most well known sect. There are even sub-sects that come from The Dragon Gate.

 

Dragon Gate sect is classified within the Quanzhen category.

[YMWong]

YMWong, how would you describe the difference between the Quanzhen Daoists and those practicing in private? What is it that the private ones are doing that the government doesn't approve of? Of course there is the meat eating being discussed here but then meat isn't illegal in China. I have read that they don't approve of Shen practices or sexual cultivation. I am more skeptical about the Shen reports, because I can find descriptions of mentioning Shen on websites based in China. On the other hand no websites I have seen for internal alchemy in China describe sexual cultivation. Is there something about this China considers hard to handle or is it something else? You mention quiet, but what are you contrasting it to? Also, I was under the impression (perhaps false) that the Dragon Gate sect was the most widespread. Would you dispute this or would you classify this as a derivative of the Quanzhen sect? Thank you.

 

Longmen Sect is of course a derivative of Quanzhen. Of the seven main sects deriving from Quanzhen, Longmen is certainly the most widespread and most probably *one of* the most widespread in China and overseas. Its founder was one of the most influential Masters during the (short lived) Yuan dynasty and a close "advisor" to Gengis Khan and helped spare thousands of lives during the Mongol's trip to the West.

 

'Private' Daoists are from various sects and, for a reason or another, have decided to remain private.

Sexual practices were common as early as the Han dynasty about 2000 years ago but were forbidden in 'orthodox daoism' around 400 a.C. by Kou Qianzhi. Needless to say, a few schools (really a few) did not follow the revision of the time and continued practicing so-called 'dual cultivation'. With the change is society, values and the role of women in society these practices are less and less common and they are almost gone now.

 

I am not sure what you mean with 'shen reports' so I can't comment of that one.

 

Best

 

YM

 

If I understand it correctly, I was told... Longmen Pai is a closed door sect. This closed door sect is called "Longmen Pai of Complete Perfection". The open door subsect of Longmen Pai is called The Dragon Gate Sect of Complete Reality. Dragon Gate Sect of Complete Reality is the most well known sect. There are even sub-sects that come from The Dragon Gate.

 

No

Longmen Pai is one of the schools deriving from Quanzhen.

EVERY school has 'closed door' teachings and 'open door' teachings, but it is not the school to be open/closed but the teachings. That is common for each and every sect.

Every master teaches and lectures to maybe hundreds/thousands but chooses a few disciples that are taught the 'core' which is usually referred to as 'heart transmission'.

 

Longmen, like many other sects, does not have a 'standard bearer' so there is not one lineage/branch more important than others. In this sense Wang Liping is *simply* one of the many masters in his generation and there are many, many others.

Needless to say, no one is equally skilled but that's another story. To each their own.

 

YM

[goldisheavy]

Needless to say, no one is equally skilled but that's another story. To each their own.

 

YM

 

Daoism, if we can call it that, is not a skill like making pots. Even comparing two expert potters is impossible except for another expert, but even then, there will be a lot of arguing and bickering about who is better and consensus will be impossible to reach. With something as subtle as understanding of the Dao all comparing is useless. Of course people will have their opinions. Kind of like Lieh Tzu thought highly of the traveling shaman and didn't think much of his master at one time. His master could have just left Lieh Tzu to his opinion. People at that level have nothing to prove to anyone. They don't need to impress anyone. They're happy just rotting away in a ditch, without renown, if that's what comes to pass.

Edited May 13, 2009 by goldisheavy

[YMWong]

Daoism, if we can call it that, is not a skill like making pots. Even comparing two expert potters is impossible except for another expert, but even then, there will be a lot of arguing and bickering about who is better and consensus will be impossible to reach. With something as subtle as understanding of the Dao all comparing is useless. Of course people will have their opinions. Kind of like Lieh Tzu thought highly of the traveling shaman and didn't think much of his master at one time. His master could have just left Lieh Tzu to his opinion. People at that level have nothing to prove to anyone. They don't need to impress anyone. They're happy just rotting away in a ditch, without renown, if that's what comes to pass.

 

You are right, of course, but I am afraid that today - especially in the West - one in a million has the chance to study under a master of that kind. All the other 999,999 are learning - at best - with teachers that make of the 'bickering and comparison' their bread and butter

 

YM

[exorcist_1699]

Better spending 5 years in studying Chinese than spending 5 years in searching for "master" in the West .

In fact, 95% of the clue/ keys are recorded in books.

[minkus]

Better spending 5 years in studying Chinese than spending 5 years in searching for "master" in the West .

In fact, 95% of the clue/ keys are recorded in books.

 

This is a very wise remark.

 

Still a hard choise between Chinese and Tibetan language.

Edited May 14, 2009 by minkus

[Walker]

Better spending 5 years in studying Chinese than spending 5 years in searching for "master" in the West .

In fact, 95% of the clue/ keys are recorded in books.

 

I can't speak to if this is true or not, but as I am studying Chinese I am often amazed at how the mess of translated and transliterated terms we have for studying Daoism, TCM, and Chinese Buddhism in the English language fall into place much, much more elegantly in Chinese. Which I think is worth mentioning, Edweir, in case what you mean by "I can find descriptions of mentioning Shen on websites based in China," is simply that you've come across the word shen on Chinese websites. Assuming that you or some of the others here don't know much Chinese (perhaps very incorrectly!), I will point out that this word is actually a pretty common one found in all sorts of everyday and nearly-everyday language. Ie, mental illness is jingshenbing, to exhaust yourself is shanshen, etc. The connotations of the word shen can vary greatly.

[erdweir]

Dao Zhen, are you studying with Hu Xuezhi? I noticed you edited one of his books, and I would like to find out more about him. I was thinking about going to china in the fall and checking some things out and he was one of the people i wanted to look up.

[Ya Mu]

[YMWong]

ditto, what Yamu said

 

YM

[Pietro]

There is an assumption, that some things are learned better when you are young. If taoist masters were all produced out of youth education, it would make sense to study only with chinese people. But this is not the case. It is absolutely possible to start late in your life (say when you are 20), and still reach very high level. In fact also here kids that are forced to do something are sometimes less good, because they would rather go and play soccer.

 

So assuming that someone is better because he is chinese is a form of racism versus the westerners.

 

Better to get a good person, that speaks your language and that knows how to explain himself. DOn't go for the best of the best, go for a good one. DOn't look for someone who speaks the dialect from your little village in alabama (or wherever that is) just go for normal english. Don't look for someone who is so old he cannot walk. Get someone who is old enogh to have experience. DOn't get someone who is a saint, just someone who is not so false he would be considered bad by normal social standards.

 

Old enough to have experience,

a laguage that he can speak to you,

a cost that is not too much,

good but not necessarily impossibly good.

 

Just follow the "good enough" principle.

 

 

By the time that person is not good enough for you anymore (because you, have improved) you will have experience, connections, visibility that can lead you to the next teacher. In fact I think everybody can just start with their teacher near by, then move to the best teacher in their region, then in their nation, then in their continent. And is that is not enough consider why do you want to become a divinity.

[Creation]

Dao Zhen, are you studying with Hu Xuezhi? I noticed you edited one of his books, and I would like to find out more about him. I was thinking about going to china in the fall and checking some things out and he was one of the people i wanted to look up.

Where did you hear about Hu Xuezhi? I only know of him because of Dao Zhen. He has studied quite a bit with Hu Xuezhi (so I gather from Revealing the Tao Te Ching) but I don't know what he is up to now.

 

He hasn't posted in a while, even though he seems to check back here occasionally. If you are reading this Dao Zhen: I have very great appreciation for your contributions to this forum and I hope you are well.

 

What in the world happened to eternalspringtours.com? I really would like to go on one, so I hope they are still doing the tours when I can get the money to go. But the site not existing does not bode well.

[erdweir]

Where did you hear about Hu Xuezhi? I only know of him because of Dao Zhen. He has studied quite a bit with Hu Xuezhi (so I gather from Revealing the Tao Te Ching) but I don't know what he is up to now.

 

He hasn't posted in a while, even though he seems to check back here occasionally. If you are reading this Dao Zhen: I have very great appreciation for your contributions to this forum and I hope you are well.

 

What in the world happened to eternalspringtours.com? I really would like to go on one, so I hope they are still doing the tours when I can get the money to go. But the site not existing does not bode well.

 

 

His name is on a website that I found of the internet just trolling for places to go check out in china. here is a link: http://www.damo-qigong.net/

[Guest C Yu C He Taiji]

Do you know anything about the Wudang Deutschland school here in Berlin? Or Ismet Himmet, the main teacher there? supposedly he trained on Wudang for years. I was thinking about going in for some lessons there...

 

 

I know the Wudang Deutschland school and Ismet Himmet. He is a very good teacher as far as I can tell. But what do I know? The school is definitely worth checking out. Tell me if you are going to visit there.

 

Chrisn

[erdweir]

I know the Wudang Deutschland school and Ismet Himmet. He is a very good teacher as far as I can tell. But what do I know? The school is definitely worth checking out. Tell me if you are going to visit there.

 

Chrisn

oh hey thanks, but i left berlin last month..

[Maddie]

Is Taoist Kung Fu synonymous with internal martial arts? Are all the taoist martial arts, internal? Are there any "external" taoist marital arts?

 

I found this video very interesting, I appologize if it has already been posted here before. Once you watch the first part you can just follow the links to all 5 sections. It is aboaut Wudang mountain.